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Why Do Some Sikhs Confuse Daya With Ahimsa?

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Randip Singh, Aug 3, 2009.

  1. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
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    Why do Sikhs confuse Daya with Ahimsa?:mad:

    Please define these concepts.
     
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  3. Huck_Finn

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    what is the reference discussion?
     
  4. vsgrewal48895

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    Dear Randip Ji,

    Since they do not know the difference between the two, here are my two cents on compassion;

    COMPASSION/ ਦਇਆ

    ABSTRACT

    Compassion is a sense of shared suffering, most often combined with a desire to alleviate or reduce such suffering; to show special kindness to those who suffer. It is empathy, not sympathy – identification with and understanding of another’s situation, feelings, and motives. Compassion is the highest vibration of the elastic relative Law of Tolerance, under the Principle of Equilibrium. Guru Arjan reflects on the virtous qualities in Sahskritee Slokes;

    ਸਬਦੰ ਰਤੰ ਹਿਤੰ ਮਇਆ ਕੀਰਤੰ ਕਲੀ ਕਰਮ ਕ੍ਰਿਤੁਆ ॥ ਮਿਟੰਤਿ ਤਤ੍ਰਾਗਤ ਭਰਮ ਮੋਹੰ ॥

    Sabḏaʼn raṯaʼn hiṯaʼn ma¬i¬ā kīrṯaʼn kalī karam kriṯu¬ā. Mitanṯ ṯaṯrāgaṯ bẖaram mohaʼn.

    To be imbued and attuned to the Word of the Sabd; to be kind and compassionate; to sing the Praises of Akal Purkh - these are the most worthwhile actions in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga. In this way, one's inner doubts and emotional attachments are dispelled.-----Guru Arjan, Sloke Sahskritee, AGGS, Page, 1354-11

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Compassion is one of the prime Sikh virtues in the higher instincts, which is not granted but have to be learnt and developed. We are subject to two different forces. There is a force, which pulls our consciousness upwards to unite it with God (developed by an inner change and becoming a Gurmukh), from whom it is now separated. There is also a force of earthly elements (Lower instincts) that drags it down in to the meshes of mind and matter. The omnipotent Akal Purkh is all love and compassion comes to dwell in the mind when the inner change occurs and the individual is blessed with Its Grace. Guru Arjan ponders on it in Siri Raag;

    ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਧਾਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਦਇਆਲ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਮਿਹਰਵਾਨੁ ॥

    Ḏarisat ḏẖār man ṯan vasai ḏa¬i¬āl purakẖ miharvān.

    Blessing us with Its Glance of Grace, the Kind and Compassionate, All-powerful Akal Purkh comes to dwell within the mind and body. -----Guru Arjan, Siri Raag, AGGS, Page, 49-3

    He, who loves, will behold God by Its Grace. He, who beholds It, will not formulate It and he who formulates It will not behold It. One has to stay away from intellectualizing God. The fullness of God's Grace is beyond human appreciation and comprehension. He who has no spiritual peace, consolation, and truth, love and devotion cannot communicate these gifts and virtues to the others. He who sows courtesy reaps friendship, and he who plants kindness gathers love.

    The Law of compassion deals with the blessings of mercy bestowed on us to be passed on to the others. He that has done you a kindness will be more ready to do you another, than he whom you yourself have obliged.

    ਜੋ ਮਾਨੁਖੁ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਓਹੁ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਲਈ ਲਈ ਫੁਨਿ ਜਾਈਐ ॥

    Jo mānukẖ mānukẖ kī sėvā oh ṯis kī laī laī fun jāīai.

    If one human being serves another human being, the one served stands by him. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Bilawal, AGGS, Page, 822-17

    Albert Einstein: A human being is a part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feeling as some thing separated from the rest, a kind of optical illusion of his consciousness. We should free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures.

    If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion. ---Dalai Lama

    The whole purpose of any religion is to facilitate love, compassion, patience, tolerance, humility, forgiveness, and teaching the individuals to subjugate their lower instincts. Altruism, selflessness, should be the first and foremost trait of the people. Education has value in as much as it is applied to the welfare of the humanity.

    ਵਿਦਿਆ ਵੀਚਾਰੀ ਤਾਂ ਪਰਉਪਕਾਰੀ ॥ ਜਾਂ ਪੰਚ ਰਾਸੀ ਤਾਂ ਤੀਰਥ ਵਾਸੀ ॥

    Vidya Vicharee Ta Paropkaree, Jaan Panch Raasi Tan Tirath Vaasee.

    Contemplate and reflect upon knowledge, and you will become a benefactor to others. When you conquer the five passions, then you shall come to dwell at the sacred shrine of pilgrimage. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 356-14

    With out service no one obtains any spiritual reward. Doing good deeds and knowing the Almighty is equal to all your meditation, austerities and reading of Holy books. Practicing righteousness and sharing are the hallmarks of the highest religion, as advocated by Guru Nanak in Raag Sarang;

    ਘਾਲਿ ਖਾਇ ਕਿਛੁ ਹਥਹੁ ਦੇਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਹੁ ਪਛਾਣਹਿ ਸੇਇ ॥

    viḏi¬ā vīcẖārī ṯāʼn par¬upkārī. Jāʼn pancẖ rāsī ṯāʼn ṯirath vāsī.

    The one, who earns with his sweat of brow and shares some of his earnings for the welfare of the humanity, has recognized the real path of life.-----Guru Nanak, Sarang Ki Var, AGGS, Page, 1245

    Man is a temple of God. All are creatures of God and Its creation. He who looks upon all men equal is religious. A true and clear perception of life is most essential towards realizing that purpose. It is of great importance to know ourselves, to know what we are and to know the various principles that can guide our progress toward spirituality. The spirituality declines as we cease to minister to the higher nature of man, and become subservient to the lower self or selfishness.

    Hatred is not eliminated by hatred but with love, which is the eternal law. The Divine transcendence (metaphysical) and the Divine immanence (omnipotence) are the two complimentary concepts of life. A materialistic mind might degrade the spiritual state to a carnal one. In charity, if one donates to the poor on the street because he wants others to think well of him, the act does not enhance his spirituality. He is just inflating his personal Ego. But he, who gives out of a concern for the good of the recipient, is being benevolent and is furthering his spiritual progress.

    One must make an honest effort to raise his/ her lower nature and make it fit for a union with God within us. Thus lower self has to die to its desires and passions and rise to the higher life of the spirit. Evil seeks to drag down the higher nature. We should seek its purification and elevation. Each step upwards may seem to be a death, but really is upward transformation of life. God is a spirit and should be worshiped in true spirit. To know the truth, one must become one with it. To tread the path one has to become the path himself. To know God one has to become one with the Divine within himself. God is absolute and without form. It is not anthropomorphic and is the cause of causes. Forgetting the God, who is an ocean of pleasures, one tosses up and down in the world ocean of delusions and deceptions. The strokes of the waves of World Ocean stir up the fire of five lower instincts. These continually burn the inner self. However, the Lord is the compassionate lover of his devotees, who humbly serve It.

    Bhagat Kabir in Raag Ramkali takes up this theme:

    ਜਿਹ ਘਰਿ ਕਥਾ ਹੋਤ ਹਰਿ ਸੰਤਨ ਇਕ ਨਿਮਖ ਨ ਕੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੋ ਮੈ ਫੇਰਾ ॥ਲੰਪਟ ਚੋਰ ਦੂਤ ਮਤਵਾਰੇ ਤਿਨ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਦਾ ਬਸੇਰਾ ॥ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਦ ਮਤਸਰ ਏ ਸੰਪੈ ਮੋ ਮਾਹੀ ॥ਦਇਆ ਧਰਮੁ ਅਰੁ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਏ ਸੁਪਨੰਤਰਿ ਨਾਹੀ ॥

    Jih gẖar kathā hoṯ har sanṯan ik nimakẖ na kīnĥo mai fėrā. Lampat cẖor ḏūṯ maṯvārė ṯin sang saḏā basėrā. Kām kroḏẖ mā¬i¬ā maḏ maṯsar ė sampai mo māhī. Ḏa¬i¬ā ḏẖaram ar gur kī sėvā ė supnanṯar nāhī.

    That house, in which the Saints speak of the Akal Purkh -- I have not visited it, even for an instant. Drunkards, thieves, and evil-doers -- I constantly dwell with them. Sexual desire, anger, the wine of Maya, and envy -- these are what I collect within myself. Compassion, righteousness, and service to the Guru -- these do not visit me, even in my dreams.

    ਦੀਨ ਦਇਆਲ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲ ਦਮੋਦਰ ਭਗਤਿ ਬਛਲ ਭੈ ਹਾਰੀ॥ਕਹਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਭੀਰ ਜਨ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰਉ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੀ ॥

    Ḏīn ḏa¬i¬āl kirpāl ḏamoḏar bẖagaṯ bacẖẖal bẖai hārī. Kahaṯ Kabīr bẖīr jan rākẖo har sėvā kara¬o ṯumĥārī.

    Akal Purkh is merciful to the meek, compassionate and benevolent, the Lover of Its devotees, the Destroyer of fear. Says Kabir, please protect Your humble servant from disaster; and I serve only You. -----Kabir, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 971-3, 4 & 5

    True learning induces service of mankind in one’s mind. The trinity of self, mind and will are the irresolvable unit of our intellectual conception. Compassion is the basis of morality. A good heart is better than all the heads in the world. With out a rich heart, wealth is an ugly beggar. We make a living by what we get; we make a life by what we give.

    Strong and united communities are the foundation of a healthy society. It is the duty of every human being to respect and support people all over the world. It is our sacred responsibility to take care of our habitats and leave them better shape - physically, spiritually, and culturally.

    Environmental stewardship is one aspect of this responsibility, as are caring for the less fortunate, and maintaining the values that make any country great. We should try to completely eradicate and eliminate the source of suffering with the Grace of Akal Purkh. The more we meditate on suffering, the deeper our compassion becomes, until one day we finally realize that to be of the greatest help to beings, we ourselves must attain enlightenment for the benefit of the others as advised by Guru Arjan in Raag Asa;

    ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਦ ਮਤਸਰ ਏ ਖੇਲਤ ਸਭਿ ਜੂਐ ਹਾਰੇ ॥ ਸਤੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਦਇਆ ਧਰਮੁ ਸਚੁ ਇਹ ਅਪੁਨੈ ਗ੍ਰਿਹ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਵਾਰੇ ॥

    Kām kroḏẖ mā¬i¬ā maḏ maṯsar ė kẖėlaṯ sabẖ jū¬ai hārė. Saṯ sanṯokẖ ḏa¬i¬ā ḏẖaram sacẖ ih apunai garih bẖīṯar vārė.

    I have got rid of all my vices like sexual desire, anger, and deceit. In the gamble of life I am glad to lose the falsehood of the world. The cycle of reincarnation is gone. I have gained instead, the virtues of truth, contentment, compassion, faith, duty, and purity of mind. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 379-3

    Conclusion:

    Compassion is the keen awareness of the interdependence of all things. Compassion is the ultimate and most meaningful embodiment of emotional maturity. It is through compassion that a person achieves the highest peak and deepest reach in his or her search for self-fulfillment. Compassion is not just a sentiment. It is doing justice and rendering works of mercy. Compassion is also not just a moral commandment. It is instead a flow and overflow of the fullest human and divine energies. It becomes infectious in the company of holy people as indicated by Guru Arjan in Raag, Jaitsari:

    ਦਇਆ ਮਇਆ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕੀ ਸੇਈ ਸੰਤ ਸੁਭਾਈ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਸਤਰੀਐ ਜਿਨ ਰਸਿ ਰਸਿ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਈ ॥

    Ḏa¬i¬ā ma¬i¬ā kirpā ṯẖākur kī sė¬ī sanṯ subẖā¬ī. Ŧin kai sang Nānak nisṯarī¬ai jin ras ras har gun gā¬ī.

    Those whom the Akal Purkh blesses with Its Grace, Compassion, and Mercy are the sublime and sanctified saints. Associating with them, Nanak is saved; with love and exuberant joy, they sing the Glorious Praises of the Akal Purkh. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Jaitsari, AGGS, Page, 701-11

    Cordially,

    Virinder S. Grewal
     
  5. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    DYA..is NOT "ahimsa". Dharam cannot exist without DYA...but Ahimsa has nothing to do with Dharam...in the Plan of Things..Dya Came First..and then Dharam..this was taught to Sajjan Thuggh by Guru nanak.
    DYA is "COMPASSION"...towards ALL...each of His Creations...see how sad GURU HAR RAI JI was when his hem got entangled with a rose and broke it off from its BRANCH...that is DYA. YET Many Hundreds of thousands of His SIKHS...each MORNING..bring FRESH FLOWERS to be matha tekked in front of SGGS..they FORGET or DISREGARD or IGNORE..teh GURVAAK in SGGS....patee toreh mallini...KILLING a LIVING FLOWER and placing it in front of SGGS ??? Yet these same Sikhs will "scream" so loudly at a "meat eater" and say how cruel..dya ?? MURGEE Martee..but what about PHULL torrthta ?? At the very least the murgee maaran wallah ate his murgee to fulfill desire for food.....what desire did the PHULL KILLER fulfill ??
     
  6. Huck_Finn

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    the murgee maran wala had option to eat something else too...maybe a ripe apple.. :)
     
  7. Randip Singh

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    Lets not go down this root. Thanks
     
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  8. Huck_Finn

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    i agree.

    it was just an answer to Gyani ji's logic.

    Daya and Ahimsa as moral values have roots in one thing- "Choice"
     
  9. Randip Singh

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    I think Daya is more than this.

    I think Daya, is to give of ones self. Putting yourself in the position of others.

    I think Guru Nanak describes Daya as willing to give of your life up for others.

    I also think Daya applies to to those or that which are capable of Daya i.e. fellow humans.

    On Gyani ji's point though, some of these people that claim Daya for all creatures are incredibly cruel to their fellow man. I remeber Animal "Rights" people here in the UK digging up the graves of relatives of those that worked in science labs. For me these people that can do this to a fellow man have a very warped sense of Dya.

    On the one hand they care for all animals (or so they claim), yet the other side is incredible cruelty for their fellow man. These people that see animals as the same level as humans clearly need some sort of mental therapy.
     
  10. Randip Singh

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    No, disagree.

    Ahimsa is, that you cannot use violence or defend yourself and others in any corcumstances.

    Daya is, you have compassion for others and are willing to die for them.
     
  11. spnadmin

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    randip ji

    Bhai Kanaiya in my opinion lived in daya even on the battle field. The story may not be true -- but the story embodies a truth.
     
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  12. Huck_Finn

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    <<I also think Daya applies to to those or that which are capable of Daya i.e. fellow humans.>>

    i find this too a bit warped logic.

    by this logic, because a lion has no daya for humans, you would kill it, irrespective of it being necessary for your survival or not?


    if people think that Ahimsa means complete non violence, they are mistaken

    here is a reference link

    http://vedabase.net/a/ahimsa
     
  13. Randip Singh

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    Thats why I used his picture.

    Also note, other water carriers fought, killed others and died in battle two.

    Daya I think is not blind. It is specific to a time and place (and to people).

    The Bhai Kanya example is perfect. During the battle, your concept of Daya is I must confront my enemy kill him in order to defend my fellow man, even if it means I die. After battle, that same Daya applies to those enemies on the battlefield, by giving them water.
     
  14. Randip Singh

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    Again no.

    If the lion didn't attack me, why would I kill it?

    If it attacked me (or fellow man), Daya compels me to defend my fellow man (and even kill the lion).
     
  15. Huck_Finn

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    a shark fish attacks humans, but people love shark fin meat.

    is it daya?
     
  16. Randip Singh

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    Person kills an animal because he she eats it, I have no qualms about that. That animal has been put to good use. Someone kills an animal for no reason, then that person lacks Daya.

    Someone kills a human being for food or no reason, that person lacks Daya. Human life is precious above all other life.

    On the point of Ahimsa, I think it still differs from Daya. I think Daya is subjective possibly.
     
  17. Huck_Finn

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    even i agree that both differ

    but they root philosophy behind both is very close.

    It is Choice based

    and Choice originating from Empathy.
     
  18. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    The story is indeed true and its part of history of DYA in Gurmatt.
    Guur nanak ji declared..aitee maar payee kurlanneh ten ke DARD na iayah..DARD is DYA..compassion for the suffering of untold humans/animals being slaughtered in battle between two strong forces..
    It was DYA that led Guur Arjun to the Hot Plate and still declare..dosh an kahoon devohn..i blame no one...
    It was DYA that led Guru Teg bahadur Ji to Chandni Chowk Delhi
    It was DYA for the fellow Indian which led to thousands of Akali Sikhs to die in the Independence struggle to free India....Bhagat Singh, Udahm Singh, Kartar Singh sarabha..Fredom Fighters, Kookas etc etc..
     
  19. Randip Singh

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    Ok this is interesting. Perhaps I was too quick in saying no.

    Please expand.

    Also lets discuss fundemental differences.

    I will kick off with definitions.
     
  20. Randip Singh

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    Here are some defintions of both

    http://www.hindupedia.com/en/Ahimsa




    http://en.mimi.hu/yoga/daya.html

     
  21. spnadmin

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    Just to travel back in history once again to the days of the Guru's.

    Guru Gobind Singh gave a theory of "the just war" as complete philosophically in the Zafarnama as any other treatise written. James Watkins on "just war"

    Bhai Kanaiya's actions and the Guru's comprehension of them in the face of criticism are precursors to contemporary thinking about the humanitarian treatment of warriors who were dead and dying as written in the Geneva convention. GENEVA CONVENTION

    Daya and ahimsa are ancient philosophical concepts to give meaning to the actions of both Guru Gobind and Bhai Kanaiya ji
     

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