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Why Do Bad Things Happen to Good People?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by jaysangh, Jun 6, 2009.

  1. jaysangh

    jaysangh
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    Simply put, my question is, "Why do bad things happen to good people". This question may seem very stupid and basic but allow me to flesh out some details.
    What is a good person? What is good and what is bad? What is the good life? These are all deep questions. I would THINK that Sikhs would reply saying that a good person is a person that lives his/her life while keeping the panch chor in balance as much as possible (I am not saying avoid the panch chor because avoiding 1 of the 5 can often result in practicing one of the other 5).
    What else would “being good” mean in terms of the Sikh faith. Can a Sikh be good if he keeps the panch chor in balance but DOESN’T
    1. Go to the Gurdwara
    2. Learn about the Guru’s and what they have done
    3. Celebrate Sikh holidays
    4. Follow the 5 K’s
    Or is it not possible to keep the panch chor in balance if you are doing any one of the above listed items?
    Having discussed the above let me go to the root of my question. Why do bad things happen to good people? Surely, there must be some, innocent, Sikh children in India who have are dying of health complications that aren’t their fault. A health condition they were born into.
    In many other religions I understand that it is said that if you are a good person that good things will come your way. Does Sikhism say anything like that (does The Guru Granth Sahib say anything like this). If so, why do such bad things like the situation I described happen?
     
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  3. spnadmin

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    jaysanghji

    And you know I always wonder why good things happen to bad people? Wondering what will happen if we look at both questions side by side? What makes a person good? What makes a person bad? Who are "good" and who are "bad" people? Where does evil come from? Where does "good" come from? These are all related questions.
     
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  4. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    ALL GOOD and BAD..and IN BETWEEN..comes from the CREATOR...is what Gurbani declares.
    Its ALL in HIS HUKM..He KNOWS ALL...but the best we can do is double guess ??
    We should accept His HUKM..His Bhanna...and His WILL...then we will be at PEACE.

    1. Once there was a Raja....and he had a Prime Minister..who always said..Thats GOOD...no matter what.
    Once the raja sliced off his finger while cutting a fruit .. THATS GOOD..said the PM. The Raja was furious..you fool..i am now one finger short...and you say its GOOD ?? Yes Raja Ji..I stand by my statement....the Raja shook his head...
    A few years later..one day the raja went hunting in the forest....where he got lost and was captured by natives who wnated to make him a sacrifice to their diety. They ahd him tied up and were about to lsice his throat..wehn they noticed his hand had one finger less...OH this sacrifice is incomplete...the priest said..the Goddess wont be happy...let him go. The Raja was so happy to be alive...and all because of a missing finger..He then remebered that his PM had said..Thats GOOD..when he cut it years ago....the First thing he did when he got hoem safe and sound was reward his PM..THATS GOOD said the PM..and BOTH laughed....:yes::yes::yes::yes::yes: Whatever He does is always:ice::ice::ice: GOOD.:ice::ice::ice:
     
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  5. Tejwant Singh

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    My own personal life would indicate that things happen. It is our perspective towards the happenings that makes them either Good or Bad.

    When we look at the same event as bad we ask," Why me?". And when we look at it as Bhana- Good then we say," Why not me?".

    The sacrifices of our Gurus would show us that. Lots of bad things happened to them but a lot good came out of it. June 5th of every year is just one date of many which reminds us of that.

    So, the question should not be," Why bad things happen to good people" but when things happen, whether good or bad, how can one make the best out of them?

    SGGS is the best tool box which teaches us how to make lemonade when life offers us a lemon or two.

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  6. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    Page 613, Line 13
    ਤੁਮ ਕਰਹੁ ਭਲਾ ਹਮ ਭਲੋ ਨ ਜਾਨਹ ਤੁਮ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਦਇਆਲਾ ॥
    तुम करहु भला हम भलो न जानह तुम सदा सदा दइआला ॥
    Ŧum karahu bẖalā ham bẖalo na jānah ṯum saḏā saḏā ḏa▫i▫ālā.
    You do good for us, but we do not see it as good; You are kind and compassionate, forever and ever.
    Guru Arjan Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]
     
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    #5 Astroboy, Jun 7, 2009
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  7. Mai Harinder Kaur

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    Dear all, all jis, of course,

    I would echo what others have said, in a slightly different way.

    Bad things don't happen to good people; in, fact bad things don't happen.

    They only seem bad from our very limited perspective. I have had some very "bad" things happen in my life; I can't say I'm happy about that, but I can say I wouldn't be half the person I am now without their having happened.

    Could our perfect Creator, Akaal Purakh, have created imperfection? I know Christians - and maybe Jews - have debated this for millenia. I will solve it for them. Perfection cannot produce imperfection. Therefore, our universe is perfect.

    Everything is exactly as it must be. I personally returned from the dead (although I would have preferred not to) because my continued life is necessary for the continuing perfection of the Universe/Spacetime Continuum (Maya). This is not egotistical; the same is true of everyone and everything, down to the tiniest sub-sub-subatomic particle.

    So why don't we all - including myself - get off our pity-pots and celebrate! :wah:

    Chardi kala!!! :ice:

    Mai
     
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    #6 Mai Harinder Kaur, Aug 11, 2009
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  8. harbansj24

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    Dear Arvinbandhesha,

    The answer to your question has very well been given by the respected persons in this thread. But in case you have not properly understood it, I will try to explain it again.

    Your mom left you in the car without taking proper precautions such as pulling the handbrake lever. So the car started to roll. But by God's grace the closed wooden gate stopped the car. Just imagine what would have happened if the gate did not come in the way! Maybe you would have had a major accident or maybe someone else might have been hurt then you would have been in real trouble.
    Now you have got away with absolutely nothing. The damaged gate also will be paid by insurance. So don't you think that God is great?
     
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  9. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    and..what IF the gate was rotten and needed replacing anyway..? A Brand new gate absolutley FREE..woow God is sure Great.:up::up:
     
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  10. jaysangh

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    I know I haven't responded much to this but I really wanted to see what people had to say about the topic. I don't think anybody really touched the essence of my question.

    A lot of people seemed to suggest that things happen exactly how they are supposed to. We, humans, are stupid and can't tell how good or bad something is. We simply look at the short term and never consider the long term. I do think this is kind of true. We may think that being fired from a certain job was a really terrible event. But later on in life we may realize that if we hadn't been fired from that job we would have never started our own company and been successful. Etc etc.

    My question wasn't really about this. It was about the starving Indian child who is suffering from Malaria. A child who wasn't asked to be born into this world into a family that could not support him. A child who won't live past his 10th birthday because he doesn't have enough food to eat and doesn't have the medicine he needs. This child and many like him die every day in this world. All the while, we have people buying Gucci purses, iPhones, and Big Macs. What kind of world is this?

    Are you really meaning to say that these kids just don't get it? What is happening to them is really a good thing, they just don't see it yet? How could this possibly be a good thing?

    How does Sikhism explain this unbalanced world that we live in?
     
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  11. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    One can go on.."explaining.." till the cows jump over the moon...you see Gautama Buddha questioned the very same questions 2500 years ago....
    The POtter makes the vessels...All of which go through the "burning process"..BUT once OUT...some end up on shelves as DISPLAY ITEMS..admired and gawked at....in the houses of the super rich..lying on expensive displays, art galleries as exhibits..in airconditioned comfort all their "life"...some end up as MILK POTS..HONEY POTS...being filled with "Amrit"....all their "life"....others end up as the COOKING POTS..on the Burning Fire..every single day in and day out getting roasted..scrubbed..until they break and end up as Clay..once more in the Potters Hands to be remade into POTS again...
    The "Potter" just made them all..He didnt decide which pot will end as what..display, milk carrier, or cooking pot...its all a GREAT PLAY..His Tamasha..His World...the GM Factory just rpoduces the Ford Mustang...the factory/sales dont choose the owner..he could be aglamorous rich who usess the car just for show..or abank robber who is going to use it to rob and kill..or ateenager who is going to keep ramming its engine and drag race it to oblivion..who "decides"..and WHY ??
    Humans arribve on this EARTH as...off a production line...each going his/her own way..IF we can HELP others..Help them..if we cant..then thats just the way it is....each one is responsible for his /her OWN LIFE and responsibilities...when Guru nanak ji saw the awful and wanton destruction of Emnabad by the invading forces of babar the Mughal..He wrote..Aitee maar payee kurlanneh..tein kee dard na iayah...Such wanton destruction occured oh Creator..didnt you feel the pain ?? IF it was two equals..it would be somewhat understandable..but this was a case of a wild wolf being set free on a herd of docile sheep !!..Babbar destroyed and burnt the entire cities..even birds were slaughtered...Guru nanak ji was one of thsoie IMPRISONED by the Babar Forces...
    ALL thsi PLAY/DRAMA is beyond us..we do what we can..!! Bhagat Puran Singh of Pingalwara..Mother Theresa..each of US are Bhagats and Therasas in our own RIGHT..IF we take the responsibility..IF we sit by our computers and MOAN..why this and why that.....NOTHING HAPPENS..except the child with malaria dies...while we were moaning..and not RUSHING to the nearest Pharamcy to get Quinine..When Bhagat found the one armed, one legged pingala lying on the street..he immediately BENT DOWN AND CARRIED HIM UP and kept him around his neck like the GARLAND of flowers..He was not responsible to carry each and every pingalla all over the world..he did what he COULD. Thats ENOUGH. IF Each of US take that Single Step..the World will become a better palce INSTANTLY...:whisling::whisling::whisling::whisling::whisling::whisling:
     
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  12. jaysangh

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    You say something that is very interesting. Your response suggests that you DO believe that our world is imperfect. Other ppl who posted on this thread suggest that the world is perfect and we are perfect. Nothing is flawed. Everything is how it is supposed to be. There is nothing wrong with a dying, homeless, hungry child. It is all perfection....

    I totally don't agree. Our world is flawed. We as a species are flawed. Our cells don't divide with 100% accuracy and our bodies aren't always under our control. As a result, mutations and cancers exist. There is plenty of injustice in this world.

    As you would say, God makes pots and some of the pots have cracks. Why? If God has the power to make every pot a perfect one, why make some cracked?
     
  13. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    NO JIos..we are NOT "Perfect"..and neither is the world.
    Some pots are born cracked..others crack in the kiln..being taken out of the kiln..on the way to the sales outlet..who knows..He Has the POWER..He Knows the whys and the why-nots.
    ALL I know is He gave me this wonderful opportunity to be born in a GURSIKH Family, be in touch with Divine Gurbani all my life..and serve my fellow humans the best way i can..put them in touch with Gurbani. The World is not perfect..thats why we are here..to make AMENDS..and try to make it a little more perfect in the way we can..wouldnt it be so BORING if everything was all A-OK all the time..more people would die of sheer boredom than from disease/wars:D:D:D
     
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  14. jaysangh

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    Yes, I do not doubt that He, the Creator, knows the answers to the questions I ask. The thing is, I would also like to understand some things about how this world works.

    I do not think the pursuit of understanding the world that He has created for us is a bad thing. If God created this world for us, then what is wrong in trying to understand it?

    I question things, it is my nature. I crave to understand the WHY's and WHY-NOT's and won't be satisfied until I understand at least some of it. If being like this is wrong, then, I guess I am just another cracked pot.
     
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  15. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Jaysangh Ji,
    Its not "wrong" per se to question..its our right.. Gurbani declares..IF you meet a SAINT/Holy Person/Learned perosn......then do some ASKING..and some LISTENING !! ( but IF you meet a cynic/atheist..then KEEP QUIET ..and go your way ) So Gurbani also encourages asking..and LISTENING. If we listen carefully enough..we will soon discover that the Guru is indeed listening to us and answering us..the trick is to LEARN HOW TO LISTEN.Keep at it...you will get the answers you seek...as I have got mine...all in good time.:happy:
     
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  16. Mai Harinder Kaur

    Mai Harinder Kaur
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    Jaysangh ji and Gyani Jarnail Singh ji,

    I have the feeling I would be better off just to sit back and say nothing, but anyone who knows me knows that just isn't my way. So, here goes...

    The suffering of the innocent is, to me, the hardest part of a loving and merciful God to explain. It is, in fact, inexplicable in any satisfying way to the human mind.

    Everything is exactly the way it must be; it could not possibly be any other way. Everything is according to the Hukam of Vaheguru. Your dissatisfaction - and mine - with the seeming imperfection of the world is part of the way things are and must be. I am at a stage in my development when social activism is a vital part of who I am. You seem to be at much the same place. We are working and learning and loving and helping.

    We look at the world as it is, with all the pain and suffering and inequity. Pain and suffering and inequity are real. Whenever some tries to tell me they are not, I am tempted to punch them in their stomach HARD just to show them how real it is.

    I suppose some of the disagreement hinges on what we mean by perfect. I mean that it all fits together seamlessly according to the Hukam of Vaheguru. (That pesky phrase again.) If you have not seen this for yourself, had this experience, it simply cannot be explained. I guess I should stop trying. I won't though because this is who I am and where I am on my journey.

    Perhaps it would be more useful to approach it from a different direction. Let us feed the hungry, doctor the sick, comfort the bereaved, seek justice for the wronged, above all, show love for all who suffer, in other words, do good deeds. Let us do this for a while, a lifetime or two or three, and perhaps we will experience the answer that cannot be put into words.

    Or perhaps not. There are no guarantees as long as we are seemingly separated from Akaal Purakh.
     
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  17. Embers

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    How can we dare to imply their lives are less than yours or mine. Who are we to say that the child’s life is worth less to Waheguru because of their problems they face?

    If you are serious for an answer to your question then re-read the scriptures. Sikhism offers the chance to wake from our dream, stop imagining that you and I might make a difference and that you can feed the world whilst I print the money to pay for it. Stop imagining how life would be if you weren’t you or they weren’t them! Be your Self. Sri Guru Granth Sahib speaks directly to the soul, if we have not heard it then perhaps ego is blocking our way.


    My tone is intended to communicate an idea and not to anger the reader. The idea is that we have no right to judge the life of others before our own. We can feel compassion, we can act with good intentions; donate money, food and love, but there is something more to Sikhism than being a good person or dishing out charity. Look at man’s history: capitalism, communism, religion, charity… no one idea has solved the worlds problems. The question is not what Sikhism can do for the unbalanced world, the question is why are we still powerless to change it.

    I have much respect for you proposing your question. It is a painful question that goes straight to the heart of the matter. Please do not take this the wrong way, it is not about you. Thank you for making me think about some cold truths.

    Kind regards, Ambers.
     
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  18. Sinister

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    Excerpt from: “Limits of Rationality” Chapter 7 by James S. Coleman. Generating Norm Structures. Pg 252

    “John Maynard Smith, has observed the nondestructive actions used in intraspecies animal conflict and has attempted to show how such nondestructive strategies would have survival value in an evolutionary sense, even though they had a greater than even chance of losing in confrontation with a more destructive strategy. Maynard Smith developed the concept of ‘evolutionary stable strategy’, a strategy such that, if it is in use in a population of individuals, the population cannot be successfully invaded by a mutant using a different strategy. Maynard Smith & Price (1973) showed that in a particular setting there was an evolutionary stable strategy that was neither the most submissive nor the most destructive. Certain submissive strategies could be successfully invaded (that is, killed off) by mutants with a destructive strategy, but as those mutants multiplied, they would in turn kill each other off and because of their low level of survival, could be successfully invaded by mutants with a strategy which could defend fairly successfully against the destructive strategy but in interaction with one another had a higher survival rate. This last strategy could not, in turn, be successfully invaded by any other strategies among those specified by Maynard Smith & Price. Robert Axelrod (1984) added to the concept of evolutionary stability the concepts of viability (the ability of a strategy to invade a population in which another strategy is in use) and robustness (the ability to maintain itself in a variegated population consisting of several different strategies).”



    Evil as a substitution for a non-cooperative mutant strategy gives rise to change of strategy. Defection of norms IS an evolutionary variable that not only makes society stronger BUT ACTUALLY plays an active role in OUR SURVIVAL and behavioral PROGRESSION as a species!!!

    Meditate on that for a bit and then go on to read more about ‘signaling theory’ authored by John Maynard Smith. Or finish the chapter in the book:

    http://books.google.ca/books?id=7M82yReFf4sC&pg=PA344&lpg=PA344&dq=Holmstr%C3%B6m's+theorem&source=bl&ots=2rJLourI59&sig=Nv6P634uiZd1QUHutWtg5ocRCHU&hl=en&ei=QKeQSs_TKM2tlAe_0aS-DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10#v=onepage&q=&f=false



    then read:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionarily_stable_strategy




    Then you and I can have an in-depth chat about why bad things happen to good people (from a non-symbolic interactionism perspective). Please note: I am not interested in discussing per chance variables that affect peoples lives (like cancer, or car crashes…as these in my rule book are part of nature governed by chaos…thus not evil).


    cheers
     
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  19. harbansj24

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    I wish to quote this immortal verse of Bhai Vir Singh ji:

    “Kyon hoya te kee koon hoya Khap khap mare sayane… Hoshan naalon masti changee Rakhdee sada thikane.”

    There can be no exact translation for this in English but the spirit is as follows:

    What happened and why? These are questions over which many wise men have fretted… Better lose yourself in love for the Divine so that there are no more questions.
     
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  20. Archived_Member5

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    Why wickedness and misfortune befalls the good and sinless – the world is governed not by laws of scripture and men of Gurmat but by wilfulness and the deception that is democracy. The socio system has veered to a dramatic extreme causing extremism in all things. The child in war torn Iraq asks of God why he has lost his family, the poor lament of their poverty and lack of water, the rich bemoan a lack of happiness and generally there is a remiss of peace and stability essential for spiritual and emotional well being. Misery akin to happiness is contagious and a sense of cynical despondency and pessimism sets in as people dismiss suffering as part of living whether through lack of faith, a calloused outlook or a self satisfied attitude of being content and more so for the suffering of others not as blessed as they. Nanak dukiya sab sansar.

    If our nations, our Lands were ruled by the spiritual and moral laws of the scriptures, if the hearts of men were supplicated to fairly interpreted word of the Waheguru, if there existed love in sufficient measure as to afford ordinate beings the luxury of sympathy and compassion then suffering would surely be eliminated, alas this is not the case. Civilians are as conscientious as those that govern them, a Sangat is as mindful as the Gyani presiding and the competency of his teaching, as the mortals ability to govern their households and ensure all maintain the bonds of familial kinship with respect and loving kindness. This Utopia has yet to be perfectd, though eaily acomplished.

    We share the burden of our worries with others, a considerate and wise word soothes what cannot be immediately righted, sometimes this suffices, the knowledge that truth exists albeit elusively. Seek your truth, begin within, at home, in one’s own community as to why the good suffer. Many are burdened with emotional baggage causing stress and disease, some have guilt complexes attracting ill fatedness, others are ill equipped mentally to cope with a fast changing society, generations and citizens alien to one another in language and culture. There are many reasons why people suffer and bad things happen, most have an explanation though it may be unjust and thoroughly unfair.

    Some are stricken by needless worries whilst others relinquish all responsibility to their creator and place fate, their destined luck or lack, in the hands og he who gave them life, and this too eases what appears an unfair and at times brutally harsh world. Diseases are caused by lowered immunity caused by neative toxic stress and a sense of frailty in an unfamiliar world than an arenaline releasing positive stresses occassioned in esting times. People lack communication skills, unable to express or comprehend what lies within or what remains unspoken by their close and dear ones causing friction in the home, in the mind, resulting at times in increased sensitivity to the daily rigours of life. One person’s anger causes grief and pain to another, unwittingly or with malicious intent. There is generally a lack of sense and jurisprudence in countries whether famine afflicted or phenomenally rich super powers. An absence of God maybe...

    Here is a beautiful rendition in times when seemingly insurmountable trial and tribulation occurs...

    YouTube - Message to God: Words of a Guru - Amazing Must Watch!

    What is the Creator, Who is the Creator Who created Creation. A drop, an atom, a molecule of pure life source, goodness, pure love, pure wisdom to cleanse and purify an ocean wherein it is contained. A small flame of light, once lit within the mind illumines all enlightening the senses and psyche to all that is good and precious, filtering out what is impure and unrighteous, a thought once awoken expands the consciousness to the length and breadth of the Universal Creation, an iota of instilled, found faith once gained, begotten liberates mans soul, freeing him from the shackles of fear, insecurity, Maya jaal, and worldly matters. The Creator is the Cosmos, then it is the Light and the minute cell, atom, molecule containing all the composites of the universe within and it is The Golden egg, embryonic as yet unborn, gaining form where dwells Gurmat, the Light of Peace and Love. The Super Conscious Supreme Soul dwelling within the hearts and minds of the pure...

    http://www.mediaconverter.org/

    {press link, enter url, go to green arrow, choose format{mp3} press start to download, save to file, and convert onto cd or mp3.}
     
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  21. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Jaysangh,

    Guru Fateh.

    Can you please define/describe the CREATOR in your post so I can understand what you are trying to say?

    Thanks

    Tejwant Singh
     

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