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Whom are the Gurus calling Shiv in Gurbaanee?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Archived_member2, Oct 7, 2007.

  1. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
    Dear all!

    Some say Shiv is Akaal Purakh. Some others say that Shiv is the Hindu God. Sometimes some specialists say that the word Shiv from Gurbaanee has double meaning.
    I want to know why Sikhs are so confused.


    Balbir Singh
     
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  3. TGill

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    Guru ji is calling Shiv to Shiv only.. Who is confused ??
     
  4. spnadmin

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    krx plwh krih isv dyv ]
    karan palaah karahi siv dayv.
    Shiva and the gods lament and moan,

    iqlu nhI bUJih AlK AByv ]
    til nahee boojheh alakh abhayv.
    but they do not understand even a tiny bit of the unseen and unknown Lord.

    pRym Bgiq ijsu Awpy dyie ]
    paraym bhagat jis aapay day-ay.
    One whom the Lord Himself blesses with loving devotional worship,

    jg mih ivrly kyeI kyie ]3]
    jag meh virlay kay-ee kay-ay. ||3||
    is very rare in this world. ||3||


    Guru Arjun Devji in the Gond raag on Ang 867 of Siri Guru Granth Sahibji. :)
     
  5. TGill

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    by Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Gauree on Pannaa 291

    jb inrgun pRB shj suBwie ]jab niragun prabh sehaj subhaae ||qb isv skiq khhu ikqu Twie ]thab siv sakath kehahu kith t(h)aae ||
     
  6. Sherab

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    Shiva is Akal Purakh in heart, just like the ant to the elephant as mentioned in Benti Chaupai (I believe) by 10th guru Gobind Singh-ji.

    Shiva relatively is Shiva.

    Please understand 2 truths of absolute (Waheguru) and relative (our understanding and ou form).

    WGJKK-WGJKF
     
  7. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
    Dear all!

    Quote from TGill Jee "Guru ji is calling Shiv to Shiv only.. Who is confused ??"
    Thanks for the straight answer. May I ask why your statement has two question marks at the end?
    By the way I am missing your smiling round face with your smart answer this time.
    Knowing this is pleasant that Shiv is Shiv. Please share your wisdom of Shiv with all.

    **************

    Aad0002 Jee, I thank you for the wonderful reference from Guru Arjan Dev Jee on Ang 867-10.
    krx plwh krih isv dyv ]
    karan palaah karahi siv dayv.
    Shiva and the gods lament and moan,

    Please explain. Who is Shiv here, the Guru is mentioning? Is Shiv Akaal Purakh, Hindu Shiv or this word has dual meaning?

    **************

    TGill Jee, I am grateful for the Vaaks referred from Ang 291-3 from Guru Arjan Dev Jee.
    jb inrgun pRB shj suBwie ]
    qb isv skiq khhu ikqu Twie ]
    When Nirgun Prabh sahaj suits then Shiv Sakat somewhere settle.
    I thought when Nirgun Prabh sahaj suits then HE reveals Himself.
    May I request for the guidance further.

    **************

    Quote from Sherab Jee "Shiva is Akal Purakh in heart, just like the ant to the elephant as mentioned in Benti Chaupai."
    Please expand your explanation and oblige.

    Quote "Shiva relatively is Shiva."
    Is Shiv not absolutely Shiv?

    Quote "Please understand 2 truths of absolute (Waheguru) and relative (our understanding and ou form)."
    Many live with two truths (duality).

    **************

    In my observation, The true Gurus have used the word Shiv always in the same context.


    Balbir Singh
     
  8. Sherab

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    Balbir-ji,

    God is present in all. Both in the small and large.

    By "absolute" i refer to EVERY beings nature as God.

    Relatively speaking, however, we appear different due to OUR duality, which is why we come and go in reincarnation.

    Therefore, Shiva is God at heart (just as you and I) yet we are still human, due to our dualistic mind.

    and by two truths i am referring to sue of RELATIVE truth, and inner truth of us as God.
     
  9. spnadmin

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    Balbir ji

    Well, I always thought that most of the Adi Granth was pretty clear and straightforward. So my questions to you would be as follows:

    Why would Guru Arjan Dev ji talk about Shiva in the Shabd, rather than to him, if Shiva were Akaal Purakh? Why would the blessed Guru describe Shiva as lamenting and moaning like a distressed schoolboy who has not learnt his lessons, if Shiva were Akaal Purakh? And why would blesed Arjan Dev ji explain that Shiva had indeed not learnt his lessons and remains in persistent ignorance? Ignorance of the unseen and unkown Lord. Akaal Purakh would be All Knowing, not unknowing. So I guess Shiva has to be a Hindu god.

    As far as a double meaning is concerned:- Shiva is mentioned 122 times in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, so it would take a few days to see what all the meanings might be. So that choice is too ambiguous to be the correct answer as posed in your question.

    You only gave 3 choices, so I pick "b" a Hindu God.

    Just my understanding of the Verses in question.
     
  10. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
    Dear all and Sherab Jee!

    Thanks for your post.
    Quote "God is present in all. Both in the small and large."
    God is present in all. May I ask why one limits HIM after knowing Truth in the duality of small and large?

    Quote "Therefore, Shiva is God at heart (just as you and I) yet we are still human, due to our dualistic mind."
    Have I understood it correctly? God is Shiv at heart because He has no duality in mind.

    Quote "and by two truths i am referring to sue of RELATIVE truth, and inner truth of us as God."
    With how many truths one is living normally?

    **************

    Quote from Aad0002 Jee "Well, I always thought that most of the Adi Granth was pretty clear and straightforward."
    Many people think that one needs to look like a Sikh and he comes to know the Adi Granth straight.

    quote "Why would Guru Arjan Dev ji talk about Shiva in the Shabd, rather than to him, if Shiva were Akaal Purakh?"
    I feel Gurdev is talking about Siv singing this Vaak. Gurdev is just watching the activities of Siv and describing those.

    Quote "Why would the blessed Guru describe Shiva as lamenting and moaning like a distressed schoolboy who has not learnt his lessons, if Shiva were Akaal Purakh?"
    The reverend Guru is not describing Siv as lamenting and moaning. This is the translator.

    Quote "And why would blesed Arjan Dev ji explain that Shiva had indeed not learnt his lessons and remains in persistent ignorance? Ignorance of the unseen and unkown Lord."
    In my view, the problem is reading the translations from people who need to know true Naam Simran. The best would be to enliven growing conscious mind with Naam.

    This is that I have understood Gurdev singing.

    krx plwh krih isv dyv ]
    karan palaah karahi siv dayv.
    Actions, results, does Shiv Dayv.

    iqlu nhI bUJih AlK AByv ]
    til nahee boojheh alakh abhayv.
    One does not resolve a tiny bit of the unseen and unknown.

    Quote "Akaal Purakh would be All Knowing, not unknowing. So I guess Shiva has to be a Hindu god."
    I feel in your sentence the word Hindu is superfluous.
    God is in all Himself. God is the mother too. God is never a Hindu mother. Calling God a Hindu mother is the result of false preaching and lust to live in hate for others with ego.

    **************

    The Gurus transform human beings into true Sikhs. They come to realize God and all HIS activities. They may be Shiv, Vishnu, Brahm or any other.
    Ignorant preachers who convert true God to Hindu in order to convert a human being to a Sikh mar the possibility of a human-being.


    Balbir Singh
     
  11. Sherab

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    Balbir-ji, replies in bold.

    PS. balbir-ji, please stop asking questions just to get them answered then debase someone's answer. It is rude, as you have done to Aad-ji.

    I will be quite clear on this, you asked if we think Shiva is Akal Purakh or a Hindu god.

    he answers that he thinks Shiva is a hindu god.

    Your reply is that:

    " I feel in your sentence the word Hindu is superfluous.
    God is in all Himself. God is the mother too. God is never a Hindu mother. Calling God a Hindu mother is the result of false preaching and lust to live in hate for others with ego.
    "

    Then why even ask if you had an answer to the view of Shiva as a hindu god?

    All i see now here are games of circles so you can prove your own point. I will be leaving this thread.

    Accha-ji, and many blessings on your path,
    Surinderjit
     
  12. spnadmin

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    Sherab ji

    Worry not. Of all the rudenesses I have met in life, Balbir's responses have never been rude-- just obscure. Now _______ is rude. But your compassion touches me and speaks well of you. Good you are a Sikh!

    Balbir ji,

    We have many times, in many discussions, hearing from many people, worried over many translations by this one or that one. The problem never goes away. Why?

    The bottom line. We are in something like log jam in the river of verses by the Gurus. Most of the time you remark that every translation that we have encountered is wrong or probably will encounter will be wrong, and therefore no one knows what he/she is talking about. The only way to break out is to stop reading, writing and talking.

    Now sometimes I think that is a good idea, actually! The cosmos is so noisy.

    But on the other hand, why bother to join a forum or start threads on a forum? if most of it is nonsense then there have to be better things to do-- like meditate.

    Listen to God or Ask Questions? Talk to God or Answer Questions?

    Just a little humor. Just defects of my munn speaking here.
     
  13. TGill

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    Balbir ji

    Quote Balbir ji: Thanks for the straight answer. May I ask why your statement has two question marks at the end? By the way I am missing your smiling round face with your smart answer this time. Knowing this is pleasant that Shiv is Shiv. Please share your wisdom of Shiv with all.

    - Why so perturbed balbir ji, don't like smiling faces these days. What happened to conjugal bliss?
    Thanks for thinking that my answers are smart. However I sometimes smile on foolish question and I forgot to do that this time.

    - If you want to mock Gurbanee and Guru with these poor translations, its your wish... Sorry for three periods, just a typo

    - Guru is calling Shiv to shiv only. I don't know why some need explanations :)
     
  14. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
    Dear all and Sherab Jee!

    Quote "All i see now here are games of circles so you can prove your own point. I will be leaving this thread.
    Accha-ji, and many blessings on your path,
    Surinderjit"

    Please open the knot of love first. It is so fast. It is pulling me along with.

    Quote "he answers that he thinks Shiva is a hindu god."
    I feel that when God reveals HIM as the world or each part of it they know him as Brahma. As long as this world or each part of it exists, HE reveals HIM as the Sustainer, Vishnu. God allocates work to the whole world or each molecule of it and decides the results, giving births to Mukti. Then HE reveals HIM as Siv.

    This is that Gurdev is expressing truth while singing.

    krx plwh krih isv dyv ]
    karan palaah karahi siv dayv.
    Action, results, does Shiv Dayv.

    **************

    Quote from Sherab Jee "But on the other hand, why bother to join a forum or start threads on a forum? if most of it is nonsense then there have to be better things to do-- like meditate."
    Great, someone has realized it.

    **************

    Quote from TGill Jee "Why so perturbed balbir ji, don't like smiling faces these days. What happened to conjugal bliss?"
    I remember someone wrote that he does not have a begum. God may accompany him, heading toward HIS SayJ. This is my request to all the readers. Please pray for TGill Jee.

    Quote "If you want to mock Gurbanee and Guru with these poor translations, its your wish... Sorry for three periods, just a typo."
    Please do not envy others.
    One may discard this awareness when God wants to bless him also. That is many are doing since eighty lakh joonies.

    Quote: Guru is calling Shiv to shiv only. I don't know why some need explanations:)
    Seeing your Smily smiling again is pleasant.

    Love.


    Balbir Singh
     
  15. Archived_Member1

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    it depends on the context. sometimes Guru Sahib describes Shiva as the hindu god. othertimes Shiva is Guru or God...

    from japji sahib:

    gur eesar gur gorakh barmaa gur paarbatee maa-ee.
    The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.

    jay ha-o jaanaa aakhaa naahee kahnaa kathan na jaa-ee.
    Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words.

    guraa ik dahi bujhaa-ee.
    The Guru has given me this one understanding:

    sabhnaa jee-aa kaa ik daataa so mai visar na jaa-ee. ||5||
    there is only the One, the Giver of all souls. May I never forget Him! ||5||

    doesn't this say shiva is the same as guru? and guru is god, right? or is that a different discussion? ;)

    or how about this?

    Āpė siv sankar mahėsā āpė gurmukẖ akath kahāṇī.
    He Himself is Shiva, Shankara and Mahaysh; He Himself is the Gurmukh, who speaks the Unspoken Speech.


    Āpė jogī āpė bẖogī āpė sani­āsī firai bibāṇī.
    He Himself is the Yogi, He Himself is the Sensual Enjoyer, and He Himself is the Sannyaasee, wandering through the wilderness.

    Āpai nāl gosat āp upḏėsai āpė sugẖaṛ sarūp si­āṇī.
    He discusses with Himself, and He teaches Himself; He Himself is discrete, graceful and wise.
    Āpṇā cẖoj kar vėkẖai āpė āpė sabẖnā jī­ā kā hai jāṇī. ||12||
    Staging His own play, He Himself watches it; He Himself is the Knower of all beings. ||12||



    God is unknowable, he can be anything. he can be shiva, guru, the air we breathe...

    i think it's pretty clear that gurbani uses shiva as both the hindu diety and as god.

    at least that's how i understand it. :)

    gurfateh!


     
  16. Astroboy

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    Listening.Shiva, Brahma
    and Indra. Listening.even foul-mouthed people praise Him. Listening.the technology of Yoga and the secrets of the body.
    Listening.the Shaastras, the Simritees and the Vedas. O Nanak, the devotees are forever in bliss.

    The Gopis and Krishna speak. Shiva speaks, the Siddhas speak. The many created Buddhas speak. The demons speak, the
    demi-gods speak.

    This is righteous living in the realm of Dharma. And now we speak of the realm of spiritual wisdom. So many winds,
    waters and fires; so many Krishnas and Shivas. So many Brahmas, fashioning forms of great beauty, adorned and dressed in
    many colors. So many worlds and lands for working out karma. So very many lessons to be learned! So many Indras, so many
    moons and suns, so many worlds and lands. So many Siddhas and Buddhas, so many Yogic masters. So many goddesses of
    various kinds. So many demi-gods and demons, so many silent sages. So many oceans of jewels. So many ways of life, so

    many languages.

    Shiva, Brahma and the Goddess of Beauty, ever
    adorned by You, sing of You. Indra, seated on His Throne, sings of You, with the deities at Your Door. The Siddhas in

    Samaadhi sing of You; the Saadhus sing of You in contemplation.

    GAUREE, FIFTH
    MEHL: Who can please You, except You Yourself? Gazing upon Your Beauteous Form, all are entranced. || 1 || Pause || In
    the heavenly paradise, in the nether regions of the underworld, on the planet earth and throughout the galaxies, the One Lord
    is pervading everywhere. Everyone calls upon You with their palms pressed together, saying, .Shiva, Shiva.. O Merciful Lord

    and Master, everyone cries out for Your Help. || 1 ||


    GAUREE, FIFTH MEHL: First, they come forth from the womb. They
    become attached to their children, spouses and families. The foods of various sorts and appearances will surely pass away, O
    wretched mortal! || 1 || What is that place which never perishes? What is that Word by which the dirt of the mind is
    removed? || 1 || Pause || In the Realm of Indra, death is sure and certain. The Realm of Brahma shall not remain
    permanent. The Realm of Shiva shall also perish. The three dispositions, Maya and the demons shall vanish. || 2 || The
    mountains, the trees, the earth, the sky and the stars; the sun, the moon, the wind, water and fire; day and night, fasting days
    and their determination; the Shaastras, the Simritees and the Vedas shall pass away. || 3 || The sacred shrines of
    pilgrimage, gods, temples and holy books; rosaries, ceremonial tilak marks on the forehead, meditative people, the pure, and
    the performers of burnt offerings; wearing loin cloths, bowing in reverence and the enjoyment of sacred foods . all these, and
    all people, shall pass away. || 4 || Social classes, races, Muslims and Hindus; beasts, birds and the many varieties of beings
    and creatures; the entire world and the visible universe . all forms of existence shall pass away. || 5 || Through the Praises
    of the Lord, devotional worship, spiritual wisdom and the essence of reality, eternal bliss and the imperishable true place are
    obtained. There, in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, the Lord.s Glorious Praises are sung with love. There, in the
    city of fearlessness, He dwells forever. || 6 || There is no fear, doubt, suffering or anxiety there; there is no coming or going,
    and no death there. There is eternal bliss, and the unstruck celestial music there. The devotees dwell there, with the Kirtan of
    the Lord.s Praises as their support. || 7 || There is no end or limitation to the Supreme Lord God. Who can enbrace His
    contemplation? Says Nanak, when the Lord showers His Mercy, the imperishable home is obtained; in the Saadh Sangat, you

    shall be saved. || 8 || 4 || (SGGS 237)

     
  17. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
    Dear all and Kelly_kaur Jee!

    Quote "it depends on the context. sometimes Guru Sahib describes Shiva as the hindu god. othertimes Shiva is Guru or God..."
    Please provide one reference where the reverend Gurus have written once 'Hindu God', 'Hindu Gods' or 'Hindu Shiv'. I will be grateful.

    Balbir Singh
     
  18. Archived_Member1

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    sorry, i don't get your point... guru sahib mentions shiva as one of many gods multiple times, these shabads have been quoted by others in this thread. why is the word "hindu" so important to you? you know very well that in guru sahib's time the only local religion that involved many gods was what we commonly call hinduism (or sanatan dharma, or whatever you want to call it).

    if you take exception to my choice of words, just say so, please don't play games asking for quotes you know do not exist.

    i'm sorry if i've said something to offend you.
     
  19. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
    Dear all and Kelly_kaur Jee!

    The true Gurus never use the words like 'Hindu God', 'Hindu Gods' or 'Hindu Shiv'.
    May I ask why did you write "it depends on the context. sometimes Guru Sahib describes Shiva as the hindu god. othertimes Shiva is Guru or God..."
    Also, the reverend Gurus never use a word that has dual meaning.

    Quote "guru sahib mentions shiva as one of many gods multiple times,"
    The Gurus also do not write that Shiv is one of many Gods. At least I have not found it once.

    Quote "please don't play games asking for quotes you know do not exist."
    Please do not add the word 'Hindu' before God. The Gurus have also never done it.
    Only the preachers seem to have the permission from their teachers to do so.

    Quote "i'm sorry if i've said something to offend you."
    You have not done it.

    **************

    This is Kalijug. People visit Gurudwara to listen. They find preachers speaking there. When will they listen, the true Guru?


    Balbir Singh
     
  20. TGill

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    bin bhagan satsang na labhe...
    How can one listen to True Guru even if preacher is not there ?

    It's better not to explain shiv. The name is not important, the manifestation is ! And it is all God's manifestations but whoever comes to know this fact only he knows shiv.

    So its better to know who shiv is than to ask others what they think of it !

    Of what importance is this debate if the objective is just to preach. :)
     
  21. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
    Dear all and TGill Jee!

    Quote "How can one listen to True Guru even if preacher is not there ?"
    I have heard that meeting with God is possible only through the true Guru. Since when meeting with the true Guru is possible through a preacher?

    Quote "It's better not to explain shiv."
    Knowing why the Gurus are singing Shiv would be interesting.

    Quote "The name is not important, the manifestation is !"
    To realize the importance of the name one must experience it through the true Guru. Borrowed information does not help.
    The manifestation is important for the worshipers of sculptures.

    Quote "And it is all God's manifestations but whoever comes to know this fact only he knows shiv."
    It may take many eighty four-lakh joonies to know all or one comes to know truth of One Naam in this life.

    Quote "So its better to know who shiv is than to ask others what they think of it !"
    Better get straight with your mind. Should one come to know all God's manifestations first and realize Shiv. Or he should come to know Shiv first to realize all God's manifestations.

    Quote "Of what importance is this debate if the objective is just to preach."
    Please ask God. Why His Show is running?


    Balbir Singh
     

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