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Who Is This Creator Who Cares For Us In Such Grand Fashion?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Harry Haller, Feb 28, 2016.

  1. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    This is a line from another thread, but its a good question, my own feeling is that this Creator is the sum of Creation, although I would probably dispute the caring bit, slightly Abrahamic, slightly Vedic, Creator cared by giving us a brain, what else is there to do? I do not believe Creator is going to bend the laws of physics or chemistry because of this 'care' but I do believe this 'care' resulted in a brain, and the ability to be self aware.

    So, assuming the Creator does not care, and taken that the meaning of life, to me anyway, is to see Creator in everything, then Sikhism is a life of service, not ritual, not hiding away in contemplation, but service, without fear, without desire, want, need, just getting out there and doing what needs to be done, always in chardi kala, do we need anyone to care for us? Is the essence of Creator a big caring cloud of love that loves us? or is the essence of Creator to constantly learn, absorb knowledge, share this learning, encourage others, lift people up, in which case, my question would be, 'who is this Creator who drives us in such a grand fashion'
     
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  3. Inderjeet Kaur

    Inderjeet Kaur
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    I'll jump in and give everyone a chance to crucify me or, if more Sassenach-inclined, to hang, draw, and quarter me. This Creator is difficult to talk about and I don't pretend to fathom It. I am panentheistic, that is I believe the Creator is all-pervading and bigger than Its Creation. It has an existence apart from, outside of Its Creation, outside the Multiverse or Multiverses. I'm not sure what that means, exactly, but I think that's what I believe most of the time.

    I believe this Creator, One Creator, designed the Universe we inhabit to run according to principles that we call Natural Law. When we attempt to understand how these Natural Laws work, we call it science, which I think is pretty cool. I define "Miracles" as the intervention of the One into the Universe, temporarily suspending Natural Law for its own purposes. This seems like cheating and I believe that while the One may play dice with the Universe, It doesn't cheat, hence, no miracles in the sense that I define them.

    So what has this Creator to do with me personally? Hmmm, let me think. It gave me a little piece of Itself, a wee bit of Its light - which I call my soul - from whence springs my consciousness. I know I am skimming lightly over the top of some very deep theological stuff here, but I am, after all, merely an aging, slightly hippie (but not New Age), garden variety SRM following Sikh woman who maintains a certain level of chardi kala (in spite of not believing in miracles). And, oh, yeah, The One, The Creator, Waheguru, has gifted me with a sense of humor that may well get me killed someday, but in the meantime, makes life livable. What more could I possibly ask for?

    This is the really easy stuff. Beware, next time I may start quoting Gurbani and then things will get really deep.
     
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  4. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    I think if we adopted the attitude of Creator, as outlined in Mool mantra, things would make a lot more sense than they do,
     
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  5. Inderjeet Kaur

    Inderjeet Kaur
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    Without a doubt.
     
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  6. Harkiran Kaur

    Harkiran Kaur Canada
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    Here is how I understand things:

    There really only is ONE thing in existence... Creator.
    All of what we perceive as solid and real, really isn't. It's just energy vibrating slow enough to manifest. If you look deep enough into the makeup of everything you will see that the 'particles' that make up everything (including our brains) seemingly disappear into nothingness at random.
    The driving force of the above seems to be consciousness. A mere conscious observer determines whether or not the particle behaves as a solid particle of matter - or merely a wave (waves are not substance themselves). This truth has been proven many times over by Quantum Physics and can be re-created.
    So when we remove all this matter (because EVERY ATOM contains these basic particles which require a conscious observer to exist as something solid) then what do we have? Consciousness is the only 'real' thing.
    Now I am not talking about 'wakefulness' in a physical sense. Because that's how some on here have tried to equate consciousness before. Instead I am talking about the observer - the experiencer behind every physical being. (and within everything). It's not the act of being physically awake that affected the experiments but the act of observation / knowing. One can be asleep, or unconscious but still observing (some other realm).
    So the universe is not the solid reality we think it is, and the only REAL thing we can latch on to is the 'observer'.
    This Observer IS THE CREATOR. And is INSIDE everyone and everything.
    Remove the Ego, and the false identity you have gained through this life as the character you are now playing. What remains - that consciousness - IS the Creator.

    A way to understand this:
    Tonight I dream I am a doctor trying to save a patients life. Inside the dream, my consciousness is the Doctor right? But I have no idea I exist as anything different than the doctor. It's a character I am playing. If I never woke up I would never realize I was Harkiran Kaur. But when I wake up in the morning, I realize not only was the doctor just a character I was playing, but so was that patient!!! They were BOTH characters WITHIN me! My own mind / dream / controlled the actions of BOTH even though I was only focused on the doctor character at the time. This world has been likened to a dream in Gurbani. And each of us characters that the ONE Creator is playing. We have all forgotten our true identities, becoming too immersed in the characters.

    There is only ONE of us here.... there only ever was ONE. (read shabad on Ang 736 likening it to a play where Creator is both director of the play AND all the characters.)
     
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  7. broken

    broken United States
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    [​IMG]

    Personally, I think he's a bit of a show-off. If it wasn't such a "Grand Fashion" would there be such silliness in nature? Would there be such attention to detail?

    Let's get over ourselves.
     
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  8. Inderjeet Kaur

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    Most definitely Creator ji has a raucous sense of humor and an incredible sense of the ridiculous...

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    of course he has, someone has to explain my ex wife
     
  10. Inderjeet Kaur

    Inderjeet Kaur
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    Harry, you are feeling hurt and bleeding and it gets better, it really does (if you let it). I was married to an alcoholic for 22 years and when he at last succeeded in drinking himself to death, my reaction was total relief to be rid of him. Nonetheless his ghost hung around until I changed my residence. It has now been nearly 5 years and I rarely think of him until someone brings up their ex.

    Yes, Creator ji has a sense of humor and, no, I don't always get the joke. Remember the Robert Frost poem.
     
  11. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    naaah, I am feeling liberated and free! I feel like Braveheart! FREEEEDOM!!

    err sorry back to topic
     
  12. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Creator creates self caring everything and as part of that it enables the ability to live in consonance, not live in consonance and be swatted like a fly (eventually and it may take generations or a moment) at the time of not your choosing or ignore all that and let it be as there really is no difference of us as part of one and one being part of us and it all being one.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  13. chazSingh

    chazSingh Ireland
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    if, as you say, the creator wants you to see the creator in everything...then just by your definition, he cares quite a bit then....don't you think?

    :)
     
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  14. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    I never said any such thing, in my view Creator wants for nothing, wanting is a human facet, as is anger, jealousy, disappointment, pleasure et al, Creator, in my view, is beyond such feelings.

    What I said was that Creator is the sum of Creation, and no, he does not care, not even a bit. Creator is truth, be truthful, be part of Creator, live in consonance with the truth, its all we have got.

    However, if it suits your purpose to have Creator as one big care bear, all concerned and playing around with creation to suit a million different agendas, and to show the world what a great caring guy he is, knock yourself out!
     
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  15. Inderjeet Kaur

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    I think on the evidence of what you are saying here, you might well be a deist. This is neither agreement nor disagreement with your beliefs, just an observation.

    You would be in pretty good company.
    This is a partial list of a partial list from Wikipedia of people who have been categorized as deists, the belief in a deity based on natural religion only, or belief in religious truths discovered by people through a process of reasoning, independent of any revelation through scripture or prophets.

    Ben Franklin, Abe Lincoln, Adam Smith, George Washington, Alexander Pope, Leonardo da Vinci, and Voltaire. I personally might add Gautama Siddhartha to the list, although he is more often listed as an atheist.

    By the way, Freeeedoooom is a wonderful thing, but don't forget poor William Wallace was hung, drawn and quartered which isn't an easy way to go, even with your face half painted blue. The Scottish History website calls this death "humiliating." I might call it the sort of thing the Moghuls would have visited upon the Sikhs, if they had thought of it. There is something in Sikhi that inspires its adherents to persist in spite of such treatment. What that is might bear investigation (I personally think it might have something to do with the way Sikhs envision the Creator.)
     
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  16. Harkiran Kaur

    Harkiran Kaur Canada
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    I don't think he is Deist:


    "Deism is actually a form of monotheism, but distinct enough in character and development to warrant its own section. In addition to adopting general monotheism, deists also accept the specific ideas that the single existing god is personal in nature and transcendent from the created universe.
    However, they reject the idea that this this god is immanent, which is to say presently active in the created universe."

    I think he fits more with Pantheism:

    "The term pantheism is built upon the Greek roots pan, which means all, and theos, which mens god; thus, pantheism is either the belief that the universe is God and worthy of worship, or that God is the sum total of all there is and that the combined substances, forces, and natural laws which we see around us are but manifestations of God."

    The above would fit or an unconscious Universe and seeing the Universe as not being an entity that is aware etc. and transcends the Universe. ie: calling the sum of the Universe God even if you don't believe in a conscious aware entity that created everything.

    However Sikhi is most definitely Panentheistic (even though all the websites say it's Monotheistic):

    "The term panentheism is Greek for “all-in-God,” pan-en-theos. A panentheistic belief system is one which posits a god that interpenetrates every part of nature, but is nevertheless fully distinct from nature.
    So this god is part of nature, but still retains an independent identity."
     
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  17. broken

    broken United States
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    You can call Harry anything you want.

    I will call him "friend".
     
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  18. Inderjeet Kaur

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    Of course, he is friend, but that's sort of a conversation stopper- and anyway, he - like all of us - has many different facets and, if I know harry, all of this is greatly amusing to him.

    Whatever. I'll ask him directly...

    Harry or harry.

    Are we amusing you? Which label, if any, do you prefer: deist, pantheist, or panentheist? Or do you prefer to trade off on all or any of them. (I know labels are a drag, but they do keep the conversation going, eh?)

    And beware, I shall soon be quoting the Mul Mantar, which is, after all, the Sikh answer to your question.
     
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  19. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    I thought I was labelled an atheist, but deist sounds just as good!

    pah, an amateur, he would not have lasted 5 mins with my ex.

    I thought I was deist when I finished reading the post!

    Nope, I agree having read this, I am a pantherist.

    why thank you, would that be an atheistic, deistic or pantheristic friend!!

    it is making me chuckle as I sit here eating this cornish pasty, and reading yesterdays sun.

    The question is who is this creator who cares for us, I say, who cares? I think if you focus all your attention on a single entity then that is your focus, its pointing at something that possibly only exists in your head, but if you focus all your attention on everything, then everything is Creator, and that is who Creator is, everything. I think that going through life trying to please an imaginary friend sounds like an awful way to live, I have come to the conclusion that it is not how you conduct yourself or how you behave, or what boxes you tick, it is the effect you have on other people that defines who you are, is it a cop out? yes, in a way, I am suggesting that it really does not matter how much you donate to charity, or what great acts of philanthropy you have carried out, it is your interaction with Creation on a daily basis that defines you, effectively, what you do that others do not see. Somethings I guess should be taken seriously, I am still not sure what they are, but the rest, well its all a big joke is it not, or material for the next big joke! As people we seem obsessed with being seen to be 'good', whilst masking or hiding our 'badness', and if we can succeed in fooling others and ourselves, then we are 'good'. I am not good, I have a bad streak in me, not towards others, more towards myself, but I believe that if my actions, and the consequences of my actions, can have a positive effect, then I am 'worshiping god'. However, my opinion is that if I think of god, or even consider god, then I am looking to appease a deity rather than live, learn and grow.
     
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  20. Harkiran Kaur

    Harkiran Kaur Canada
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    But... doesn't Gurbani tell us to see and serve the Divine Light (God) inside everyone? And that God is ultimate reality (ONEness) which means everyone that exists are really part of that ONE God. So look at it from the opposite direction.... by serving others and helping humanity you ARE thinking / serving God!

    Not for any appeasement - remember that ultimate reality is ONEness! How can one of your blood cells appease you? It's PART of you!!
     
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  21. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Well, not quite, you see for me the whole 'god' thing has quite nasty connotations, and although it looks like we are arguing over semantics, it is much more than that. As a child, I was terrified of making god angry, and as I grew up into a young adult, having a taste for the unusual, I was aware that I was probably constantly making god angry, which then mean't I had to carry out actions that I assumed would make him happy, of course, you end up in your local Gurdwara seeking spiritual guidance, but the things that I was told that would make god happy did not make any sense to me.

    I think to see 'god' in everyone and then attempt to please 'god' in everyone is a mistake, it makes you wish to appease people, to please people, to overlook their faults, to make excuses for them, when what you should be doing is lifting people, and that is not always pleasant, nor as much fun as pleasing 'god'.

    To be a Sikh, and to see Ek Onkar in everything, I think is different to say, being a Christian and seeing the personality of 'god' in everything. I hope that makes sense
     
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