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Who Is Sikh? Who Is Not?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by pk70, Jul 21, 2008.

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  1. pk70

    pk70
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    I have a circle of friends who are very much into Gurbani, good people but rarely feel to be bound with a strict Sikh Maryada. As per their opinion, it is made by a group of people whose intention is to institutionalize a great religion and control it; their only guiding force is Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and literally that is what they do need and care and, they say that Sikhism is beyond boundaries. One of them is Ashok Khurana who once lost temper when he heard another our Hindu friend Bhavnesh used not respectful words for Guru Nanak, Ashok snapped, he slapped him, such strong emotions he harbors for Guru Ji. When I asked to show a little tolerance towards ignorant, he said”, it is not being ignorant, it is purposeful and when it comes to Guru, it’s hard for him to hold and put up with such trashy words.
    In my eyes, he is a Sikh, struggling on a path. Question: if Ashok is not a Sikh as per Sikh maryada, what is he? Kindly share my views if you can.
     
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  3. spnadmin

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    Re: Who Is Sikh Who Is Not

    pk70,

    I think that this thread will stir up some interesting debate. But for starters Who Is Sikh Who Is Not raises one set of issues. And Who is a Sikh per Rehat Maryada raises a different set of issues.

    The Rehat Maryada, in my humble opinion, should not be viewed as a means of control. It took 2 generations of study and the input of scholars and spiritual people from all of Sikhi to finally come up with a document that gained consensual support in the Sikh community. The Rehat Maryada has perhaps been manipulated for political reasons by political operatives. And, when you ask, who is a Sikh per the Rehat Maryada? then we have to take a look at what it says. Again in my humble opinion -- it says in so many places -- A Sikh should... describing a path that A Sikh should follow. To me this allows for transitions in Sikh identity.

    But here is the definition of a Sikh per the Rehat Maryada

    [SIZE=-1]The Definition of Sikh :

    Article I
    Any human being who faithfully believes in
    i. One Immortal Being,
    ii. Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Sahib to Guru Gobind Singh Sahib,
    iii. The Guru Granth Sahib,
    iv. The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus and[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1] v. the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh

    Please note: The most recent proposal to revise the Indian Gurdwara Act (now under review) would change this definition eliminating item "i." belief in One Immortal Being. That of course changes everything and many view this as a blatant political tactic by Badal and his associates on SGPC.

    Moral of the story. Nothing is ever simple.

    [/SIZE]
     
  4. pk70

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    Re: Who Is Sikh Who Is Not

    aad0002 Ji,
    Thanks for giving a broad view on both sides; I am amritdhari but Guru Grannth Sahib Ji's study has changed my own views; historically, Tenth Master he turned victims into self defenders through Amrit ceremony, kept his heart open for those who adored Gurbani but didnt take amrit. Being a part of Guru's Khalsa, Sikhs in those days never never gave frown look who were not amritdharis as todays some amritdharis do. Now these some amritdharis behave like funatics of other faiths. They also feel they have a license to go direct to heaven seat or would be apporoved by Guru as true Sikhs. My stance is different; Guru ji asked to have amrit at a choice but it was not forced though History states that first time over 50000 took it( Vaguely, Pl dont question my numbers), many famous Sikhs of Guru Ji's time, remained " Sehaj Dhari" and were well respected. Sikh identity Guru ji gave will stay for ever even if some choose to be Sehajdharis" if they believe nothing but in ten Guru and Guru Granth sahib Ji. When I meet my friend like Ashok Khurana, and see how deeply he adores Gurbani and Guru and struggles to practice it, I feel he is a Sikh, how any one can measure his Sikhi basing on only one thing " amrit ceremony. Does amrit ceremony change people? I doubt it does so. Does Gurbani change people? I veryfy this with own experience. Understanding religion, one needs to grow up spiritually before passing own judgments on those who just differ. I strongly believe that a Sikh should take amrit but also support sehajdharis and resppect them as Sikhs of Guru. For me, measure is how a known Sikh lives. Is it as per Gurbani or just opposite and hypcratically singing Gurbani? Mere appearance has no value for me. In Islam, men are supposed to keep beard but many dont do, have they become less Muslims? Ceertainly not. What do you say on this please?
     
  5. Huck_Finn

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    Re: Who Is Sikh Who Is Not

    :confused:

    pk70 ji

    are you a sikh?
     
  6. spnadmin

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    Re: Who Is Sikh Who Is Not

    pk70 ji

    We are not necessarily in disagreement. Renunciation, pilgrimages and ritual baths do not alone bring us to awareness of the Satguru. I am not amritdhaari and may never be. The original context for taking amrit sanchaar was to show one's commitment to a principled way of life, to humility, to be God's servant. And this was and is sanctified by drinking the "ambrosial nectar" as symbolized in the amrit sanchaar ceremony. So we look around and many amritdhari are not living a principled way of life, they are not humble, they are not living in submission to God -- the world looks upside down. The one's who should be completely wrapped in the spirit of seva are instead wrapped in the spirit of politics.

    But --is this surprizing? Not every amritdhari is so off the path. Many are wrapped in devotion and seva. So this is no different from what you would find in any other religious tradition or in any of their sangats or places of worship. In Christianity the scripture quotes Jesus as saying, "Oh ye of little faith!" In the janamsaakhi Nanak decides to throw handfulls of water to the west -- because that water will reach his herds of cattle before the water thrown to the east by the Brahmins will reach their ancestors. Many of us on the planet Earth need symbols and they need concrete proof, or they are ruled by concern for respectability and what other people think. It doesn't change my mind. It has always been this way and it always will.

    Got is not an amritdhari; He is the amrit. God does not go to gurdwara; He already dwells in all the sacred spaces in the form of Guruji. God does not ask for rituals; He celebrates Himself. He is also the Forgiver who pervades everyone. So my two cents -- have to move on.

    P/S I have known people who were changed by amrit sanchaar in very deep and profound ways.
     
  7. pk70

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    Re: Who Is Sikh Who Is Not

    amarsanghera ji
    Your question has made me aware of my being a Sikh who is struggling to stay on Guru path. Thanks for the question though!:)
     
  8. Sinister

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    In my experience;

    A Sikh?

    A sikh is a person who once claimed to be a sikh, then for a while claimed not be a sikh and then claims to be sikh again after further thought and evaluation.
     
  9. pk70

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    I got it, what other word you can use for it, let me think, evolution of Sikh Soul?
    Idea is out put of practical and " must needed" experience. Thank you.
     
  10. spnadmin

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    pk70,

    I knew that I was really a Sikh when I started dreaming about Sikhs. If a person is someone actually known to me, my sister or husband or mother, in my dreams they are the same as in real life. But in dreams where there are projects involving many people they are all Sikhs. Men with beards and turbans, kirpan. Women in chunnis' and braids. People unknown to you in dreams are projections from yourself. So the whole nine yards.:cool:
     
  11. Sinister

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    there are no shortcuts, a sikh becomes a sikh once they have completed these evolutionary steps.

    The people who have never doubted, have never lived at all.

    cheers bud
     
  12. Huck_Finn

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    i sometimes dream of being lost in Amazon

    am i an Anaconda?
     
  13. Huck_Finn

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    Denial is the greatest confirmation :)
     
  14. pk70

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    After reading Sinister ji's, yours comments I feel, my clan is getting bigger.:happy:
     
  15. Harjas Kaur Khalsa

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    This story reminds me of something I heard about. There was a female diksha swami who gave shaktipat initiations who was being greeted by lines of devotees at a particular ashram. One lady in the line was showing clear signs of imbalance, possibly mental illness, possibly kundalini kriyas. But anyway, she was acting weird and saying weird things. When she got up to this lady guru, with a serene smile on her face, the swami suddenly slapped the woman. Keeping the smile and serene look, several times the swami slapped the imbalanced lady. I know this story second-hand, and the person who told it to me had seen this lady at temple a lot. She said afterwards the lady got better and better and seems completely normal now. Sometimes a guru, or even our Satguruji Maharaj will act in ways that don't seem to make sense, but the needed lesson or adjustment will take place. The answer would be in the reaction and/or change in Ashok whether it was krodh on part of your friend, or actually Divine guidance for his spiritual development and breaking through blocks. Either could be the case.


    Well, the truth is, I have come on a long journey with these kinds of questions. To make the story short (honest), institutionalized groups are like the Christians say, "a den of vipers." I don't even mean bad. I mean really bad. So if we know we have a structured set of rules, a delineated authority, positions of power, that such things are going to be abused. It's human nature and it's an evil era when righteousness is falling down.

    But if we stray completely from agreed upon definitions and standards, what are we then?

    I will honestly say, and have felt for a long time but tried to just be quiet and conform, that I don't agree with a lot of definitions in the Sikh rehit maryada. Just like any individual Jatha does, most keep the basics and then change or add somethings, such as keski rehit, sarbloh bibek, raagmala, Naam abhiyaas, sarbloh kara/kirpan.

    I don't see these things as rituals so much as elective practices for a stricter sadhana. Will such a strict sadhana make a person holy? Not necessarily. But just focusing on working on your inner nature and disciplining the 5 thieves is some kind of progress. It's not for everyone. Some don't need. Some don't want. And some would be spiritually detrimental for. I don't believe that spiritual practice is a cookie cutter mold that you stamp indescriminately onto everyone like one-size fits all.

    And far too often that's how we define spirituality, by trying to herd together everyone with like mind, and exclude every little difference. And the honest truth is, I have been around truly strict and even over-disciplined people. And everybody already knows about it, they aren't "nice." Let me share a story:

    I have an amritdhari friend whose oldest son cut his hair and took off kara to fit in and go to dental school. He was never amritdhari. Well being his mother, she stayed supportive of him, and loves him very much. But she really didn't go for the shave and haircut. She tried getting some amritdhari young people from Jatha x to come to her house for kirtan programs, encouraging them to "talk to my son." "Can you call my son and just try to be a good influence on him?" I heard many of these conversations for a couple of years.

    No one ever called. And apart from special kirtan programs, and despite being very close by, no one ever came over. All the people she asked, and no one bothered to talk to her son. After awhile, this same group of people just stopped saying fateh to us, my friend and I, and one day we'd had it. So we decided never to do anything associated with that particular bunch. Meanwhile, my friend started going to a gurdwara from Jatha z. And Jatha z is a pretty relaxed bunch. Nearly everyone there is a cutter, trimmer, dyer. I mean just no visible strictness in keeping rehit AT ALL!

    And something happened that really made an impression on all of us. After a few years of dealing with Jatha x and Jatha y and ridiculously poor behavior which cannot even be mentioned, Jatha z, the relaxed bunch, did something completely unexpected. No non-amritdhari person, let alone with cut and shaved kes would ever be allowed to do kirtan for the sangat. But the bhai sahib from this Gurdwara, seeing her son looking completely estranged from the sangat started talking to him, calling him on the phone, and *shock* inviting him to play kirtan for the sangat. And something I did not know, he could play beautifully with such longing and such piare.

    Who is on the holy path? Is it the people with strict rehit, harsh judgement, self-promotion, and indifference to others? Is it the ones who do everything wrong by rehit, but do everything right by heart?

    It has to be asked, because these definitions change everything. It goes directly to the question "who is a Sikh?" I think the shabad from Shri Sarbloh Granth which Namjap ji posted on another thread said everything. "Khalsa is my True Form; In the Khalsa do I reside; Khalsa is my True Companion; Khalsa is my Perfect Master"

    A sikh is just someone who wants to belong to Guruji. Anyone who bows his head and believes in Guru is a sikh. But to become a Khalsa, I'm not even sure khande ki pahul is the path. Thats the accepted answer. I do believe in shaktipat deekhya because I've experienced it. But it didn't make me a Khalsa. It just gave me an experience. The only power in having an experience is if it changes you for the better over time. Anything less than that is just another sensuality. And I know some people don't get any perceptible experience getting amritchukk. It is making a commitment to live a dharmic life by certain standards.

    But even in Gurbani, amrit isn't deekhya initiation, charan pahul or khande ki pahul.


    ਖੋਟੇ ਖਰੇ ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪਿ ਉਪਾਏ ॥
    khottae kharae thudhh aap oupaaeae ||
    You Yourself created the counterfeit and the genuine.

    ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਪਰਖੇ ਲੋਕ ਸਬਾਏ ॥
    thudhh aapae parakhae lok sabaaeae ||
    You Yourself appraise all people.

    ਖਰੇ ਪਰਖਿ ਖਜਾਨੈ ਪਾਇਹਿ ਖੋਟੇ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੬॥
    kharae parakh khajaanai paaeihi khottae bharam bhulaavaniaa ||6||
    You appraise the true, and place them in Your Treasury; You consign the false to wander in delusion. ||6||

    ਕਿਉ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖਾ ਕਿਉ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ॥
    kio kar vaekhaa kio saalaahee ||
    How can I behold You? How can I praise You?

    ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਲਾਹੀ ॥
    gur parasaadhee sabadh salaahee ||
    By Guru's Grace, I praise You through the Word of the Shabad.

    ਤੇਰੇ ਭਾਣੇ ਵਿਚਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਵਸੈ ਤੂੰ ਭਾਣੈ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਆਵਣਿਆ ॥੭॥
    thaerae bhaanae vich anmrith vasai thoon bhaanai anmrith peeaavaniaa ||7||
    In Your Sweet Will, the Amrit is found; by Your Will, You inspire us to drink in this Amrit. ||7

    ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਬਦੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਹਰਿ ਬਾਣੀ ॥
    anmrith sabadh anmrith har baanee ||
    The Shabad is Amrit; the Lord's Bani is Amrit.

    ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਸੇਵਿਐ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਮਾਣੀ ॥
    sathigur saeviai ridhai samaanee ||
    Serving the True Guru, it permeates the heart.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 119



    ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਚਨ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਜੋ ਬੋਲੈ ਸੋ ਮੁਖਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੨॥
    anmrith bachan sathigur kee baanee jo bolai so mukh anmrith paavai ||2||
    The Words of the True Guru's Teachings are Ambrosial Nectar; this Amrit trickles into the mouth of the one who chants them. ||2||

    ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਲਾਗੈ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪੈ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਵੈ ॥
    niramal naam jith mail n laagai guramath naam japai liv laavai ||
    Immaculate is the Naam, which cannot be stained by filth. Through the Guru's Teachings, chant the Naam with love.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 494



    ਜਤੁ ਪਾਹਾਰਾ ਧੀਰਜੁ ਸੁਨਿਆਰੁ ॥
    jath paahaaraa dhheeraj suniaar ||
    Let self-control be the furnace, and patience the goldsmith.

    ਅਹਰਣਿ ਮਤਿ ਵੇਦੁ ਹਥੀਆਰੁ ॥
    aharan math vaedh hathheeaar ||
    Let understanding be the anvil, and spiritual wisdom the tools.

    ਭਉ ਖਲਾ ਅਗਨਿ ਤਪ ਤਾਉ ॥
    bho khalaa agan thap thaao ||
    With the Fear of God as the bellows, fan the flames of tapa, the body's inner heat.

    ਭਾਂਡਾ ਭਾਉ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਤਿਤੁ ਢਾਲਿ ॥
    bhaanddaa bhaao anmrith thith dtaal ||
    In the crucible of love, melt the Nectar of the Name,

    ਘੜੀਐ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੀ ਟਕਸਾਲ ॥
    gharreeai sabadh sachee ttakasaal ||
    and mint the True Coin of the Shabad, the Word of God.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 8



    ਉਲਟਿਓ ਕਮਲੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ ॥
    oulattiou kamal breham beechaar ||
    The inverted heart-lotus has been turned upright, through reflective meditation on God.

    ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਧਾਰ ਗਗਨਿ ਦਸ ਦੁਆਰਿ ॥
    anmrith dhhaar gagan dhas dhuaar ||
    From the Sky of the Tenth Gate, the Ambrosial Nectar trickles down.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 153




    What if that "One immortal being" is itself an incomplete concept as it stands defined by SGPC. And what if it alludes to a deeper meaning of the Supreme incomprehensible nirgun behind all forms, who pervades all forms, including devtas? What if it means that the true nature of the creation, of our atma is the Paramatman? If the sansaaric world is illusion of duality and three gunas and Maya, and every one of the created beings is an illusion like a shadow obstructing the light, and once the light shines, the shadows fade? What if the Immortal One is something we all merge and become One with, the true Inner Self, Parabraahma. Would it hurt anything to clarify the definition which causes people to think there is a monotheistic God existing in isolation rather than a Oneness which includes everything that is?

    What does it say about authoritative definitions that might actually be in conflict with someone's interpretation of Gurbani?



    ਸਹਸ ਤਵ ਨੈਨ ਨਨ ਨੈਨ ਹਹਿ ਤੋਹਿ ਕਉ ਸਹਸ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਨਨਾ ਏਕ ਤ+ਹੀ ॥
    sehas thav nain nan nain hehi thohi ko sehas moorath nanaa eaek thuohee ||
    You have thousands of eyes, and yet You have no eyes. You have thousands of forms, and yet You do not have even one.

    ਸਹਸ ਪਦ ਬਿਮਲ ਨਨ ਏਕ ਪਦ ਗੰਧ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਹਸ ਤਵ ਗੰਧ ਇਵ ਚਲਤ ਮੋਹੀ ॥੨॥
    sehas padh bimal nan eaek padh gandhh bin sehas thav gandhh eiv chalath mohee ||2||
    You have thousands of Lotus Feet, and yet You do not have even one foot. You have no nose, but you have thousands of noses. This Play of Yours entrances me. ||2||

    ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਹੈ ਸੋਇ ॥
    sabh mehi joth joth hai soe ||
    Amongst all is the Light-You are that Light.

    ਤਿਸ ਦੈ ਚਾਨਣਿ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
    this dhai chaanan sabh mehi chaanan hoe ||
    By this Illumination, that Light is radiant within all.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 13


    ਆਦਿ ਅਨੀਲੁ ਅਨਾਦਿ ਅਨਾਹਤਿ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਏਕੋ ਵੇਸੁ ॥੨੯॥
    aadh aneel anaadh anaahath jug jug eaeko vaes ||29||
    The Primal One, the Pure Light, without beginning, without end. Throughout all the ages, He is One and the Same. ||29||

    ਏਕਾ ਮਾਈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਵਿਆਈ ਤਿਨਿ ਚੇਲੇ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥
    eaekaa maaee jugath viaaee thin chaelae paravaan ||
    The One Divine Mother conceived and gave birth to the three deities.

    ਇਕੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੀ ਇਕੁ ਭੰਡਾਰੀ ਇਕੁ ਲਾਏ ਦੀਬਾਣੁ ॥
    eik sansaaree eik bhanddaaree eik laaeae dheebaan ||
    One, the Creator of the World; One, the Sustainer; and One, the Destroyer.

    ਜਿਵ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਵੈ ਚਲਾਵੈ ਜਿਵ ਹੋਵੈ ਫੁਰਮਾਣੁ ॥
    jiv this bhaavai thivai chalaavai jiv hovai furamaan ||
    He makes things happen according to the Pleasure of His Will. Such is His Celestial Order.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 7



    ਛਿਅ ਘਰ ਛਿਅ ਗੁਰ ਛਿਅ ਉਪਦੇਸ ॥
    shhia ghar shhia gur shhia oupadhaes ||
    There are six schools of philosophy, six teachers, and six sets of teachings.

    ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਏਕੋ ਵੇਸ ਅਨੇਕ ॥੧॥
    gur gur eaeko vaes anaek ||1||
    But the Teacher of teachers is the One, who appears in so many forms. ||1||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 12



    ਮ੍ਰਿਗ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਜਿਉ ਜਗ ਰਚਨਾ ਯਹ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਬਿਚਾਰਿ ॥
    mrig thrisanaa jio jag rachanaa yeh dhaekhahu ridhai bichaar ||
    The created world is like an illusion, a mirage - see this, and reflect upon it in your mind.

    ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਭਜੁ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਨਿਤ ਜਾ ਤੇ ਹੋਤ ਉਧਾਰ ॥੨॥੨॥
    kahu naanak bhaj raam naam nith jaa thae hoth oudhhaar ||2||2||
    Says Nanak, vibrate forever the Name of the Lord, which shall deliver you. ||2||2||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 536​




    So close examination of the SGPC rehit maryada and you can see it's intended to isolate the amritdharis from everyone else. I can understand it's purpose. But I don't think in every circumstance, that's the best choice. Sometimes people need your friendliness, your welcome, your example. So how would someone reconcile the correctness of religious authority and institutions which promote their own interpretations of Gurbani, but that you personal feel are in conflict with it? I don't advocate worship of the avtaars, but we are using their Naams to sing Kirtan of the Lords's praise, because Gurbani shows they are sargun avtaara of the nirgun Lord. So wouldn't this directly conflict with SGPC Rehit Maryada?


    ਗਾਵਹਿ ਕਪਿਲਾਦਿ ਆਦਿ ਜੋਗੇਸੁਰ ਅਪਰੰਪਰ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਵਰੋ ॥
    gaavehi kapilaadh aadh jogaesur aparanpar avathaar varo ||
    Kapila and the other Yogis sing of Guru Nanak. He is the Avataar, the Incarnation of the Infinite Lord.
    ~SGGS Ji . 1359



    ਰਾਮ ਰਵਣ ਦੁਰਤ ਦਵਣ ਸਕਲ ਭਵਣ ਕੁਸਲ ਕਰਣ ਸਰਬ ਭੂਤ ਆਪਿ ਹੀ ਦੇਵਾਧਿ ਦੇਵ ਸਹਸ ਮੁਖ ਫਨਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥
    raam ravan dhurath dhavan sakal bhavan kusal karan sarab bhooth aap hee dhaevaadhh dhaev sehas mukh fanindh jeeo ||
    The Lord of contemplation, Destroyer of sin, who brings pleasure to the beings of all realms, He Himself is the God of gods, Divinity of the divine, the thousand-headed king cobra.

    ਜਰਮ ਕਰਮ ਮਛ ਕਛ ਹੁਅ ਬਰਾਹ ਜਮੁਨਾ ਕੈ ਕੂਲਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਖੇਲਿਓ ਜਿਨਿ ਗਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥
    jaram karam mashh kashh hua baraah jamunaa kai kool khael khaeliou jin gindh jeeo ||
    He took birth in the Incarnations of the Fish, Tortoise and Wild Boar, and played His part. He played games on the banks of the Jamunaa River.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1403


    ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਦੇਵ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥
    brehamaa bisan mehaes dhaev oupaaeiaa ||
    Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva and the deities were created.

    ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਦਿਤੇ ਬੇਦ ਪੂਜਾ ਲਾਇਆ ॥
    brehamae dhithae baedh poojaa laaeiaa ||
    Brahma was given the Vedas, and enjoined to worship God.

    ਦਸ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਆਇਆ ॥
    dhas avathaaree raam raajaa aaeiaa ||
    The ten incarnations, and Rama the king, came into being.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1279​



    ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਧਿਆਵਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਗਲਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਵੈਗੋ ॥੫॥
    guramath guramath guramath dhhiaavehi har gal mil mael milaavaigo ||5||
    Those who meditate on the Guru's Teachings, the Guru's Instructions, the Guru's Wisdom, are united in the Lord's Union; He hugs them close in His Embrace. ||5||

    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੁ ਬੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਚੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵੈਗੋ ॥
    guramukh naadh baedh hai guramukh gur parachai naam dhhiaavaigo ||
    The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad, The Guru's Word is the wisdom of the Vedas; coming in contact with the Guru, meditate on the Naam.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1311



    ਗੁਨ ਨਾਦ ਧੁਨਿ ਅਨੰਦ ਬੇਦ ॥
    gun naadh dhhun anandh baedh ||
    The Glory of God is the Sound-current of the Naad, the Celestial Music of Bliss, and the Wisdom of the Vedas.

    ਕਥਤ ਸੁਨਤ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨਾ ਮਿਲਿ ਸੰਤ ਮੰਡਲੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    kathhath sunath mun janaa mil santh manddalee ||1|| rehaao ||
    Speaking and listening, the silent sages and humble beings join together, in the Realm of the Saints. ||1||Pause||
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1322


    ਬਾਜੰਤ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਬਦ ਬੀਣਾਂ ॥੧੩॥
    baajanth naanak sabadh beenaan ||13||
    O Nanak, the musical instrument of the Word of the Shabad vibrates and resounds within. ||13||

    ਕਹੰਤ ਬੇਦਾ ਗੁਣੰਤ ਗੁਨੀਆ ਸੁਣੰਤ ਬਾਲਾ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰਾ ॥
    kehanth baedhaa gunanth guneeaa sunanth baalaa bahu bidhh prakaaraa ||
    The Vedas preach and recount God's Glories; people hear them by various ways and means.

    ਦ੍ਰਿੜੰਤ ਸੁਬਿਦਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲਾ ॥
    dhrirranth subidhiaa har har kirapaalaa ||
    The Merciful Lord, Har, Har, implants spiritual wisdom within.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1355



    ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥
    baedh kathaeb kehahu math jhoothae jhoothaa jo n bichaarai ||
    Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.
    ~SGGS Ji p. 1350



    If you look closely at the timeline, right after the collapse of Maharaja Ranjit Singh's Kingdom, the Sanatan Nihang Jatha, which had been the leading Sikh Misls and one of the Panj Takhts became marginalized in an obvious power struggle, Mahants and Udasis were thrown own of Gurdwaras, and the Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha reform defined modern Sikhism according to it's best scholars, and in line with their viewpoints.


    ~Bhul chak maaf
     
  16. pk70

    pk70
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    amarsanghera Ji

    If an amritdhari Sikh denies being Sikh, rest are history, confirmation becomes immaterial.

    i sometimes dream of being lost in Amazon

    am i an Anaconda?

    Not exactly, because you have different goal:)
     
  17. pk70

    pk70
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    A Sikh is just someone who wants to belong to Guruji. Anyone who bows his head and believes in Guru is a Sikh. But to become a Khalsa, I'm not even sure khande ki pahul is the path. Thats the accepted answer. I do believe in shaktipat deekhya because I've experienced it. But it didn't make me a Khalsa. It just gave me an experience. The only power in having an experience is if it changes you for the better over time. Anything less than that is just another sensuality. And I know some people don't get any perceptible experience getting amritchukk. It is making a commitment to live a dharmic life by certain standards.

    See, it comes down to living( rehni) others become aids to boot up the progression. I took amrit, nothing happened much but since Gurbani took seriously, overhauling started, the fragments of all negativity still show and say" still we are here", battle goes on.
     
  18. Huck_Finn

    Huck_Finn
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    there is a beautiful poem by Tagore

    The lantern which I carry in my hand makes enemy of the darkness of the far'ther road.
    And this wayside becomes a terror to me,
    where even the flowering tree frowns like a spectre of scowling menace;
    and the sound of my own steps comes back to me in the echo of muffled suspicion.
    Therefore I pray for thy own morning light,
    when the far and the near will kiss each other and death and life will be one in love.
     
    #17 Huck_Finn, Jul 21, 2008
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2008
  19. Huck_Finn

    Huck_Finn
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    I CAST my own shadow upon my path, because I have a lamp that has not been lighted.
     
  20. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    During the life of Guru Arjan Sahib, a certain family of devotees who were talented in singing the holy scriptures approached the Guru for some financial help to cover the cost of their daughter's marriage. Guru Arian said, "All right, it will be given." They waited for some days, but nothing further was said; so once again they faced the Guru and said, "Maharaj, we do not want very much; so if each sikh [i.e. disciple] could give one taka [two pice-about a third of a cent] that would be enough." Guru Arjan replied, "All right, tomorrow we will see." The days passed by without further development, and again they approached their Guru, saying, "Please do something quickly, for the date of the marriage is upon us." The Guru said, "All right, tomorrow I will give." When they came to Him the following day, He took out four and a half takas and gave it to them. They looked at the small amount in surprise and said, "Maharaj, what is this? You have such a huge gathering of disciples, and yet you have given us only four and a half takas." Guru Arjan replied, "You said you wanted one taka per Sikh. The first Sikh was Guru Nanak, the second was Guru Angad, the third was Guru Amar Das, the fourth was Guru Ramdas, and, well, the half taka is for me-I am only half a Sikh-and that makes a total of four and a half takas." It was a sharp lesson to those who had thought to be clever and a wonderful example of the humility of Guru Arjan.
    What then is the criterion of a Sikh? Guru is a Sikh-Sikh is a Guru; both give the same teaching. He Who becomes a True Disciple becomes a Guru-from server to Master. The family of singers did not appreciate their Guru's lesson and they began to demur, saying, "Who would have known of Guru Nanak but for our singing?" A true Sikh can tolerate anything but an attempt to defame the Guru, and showing His displeasure Guru Arjan said, "Ail right, brothers, you can go." Others of His followers observed the Guru's anger and begged Him to forgive the offending persons. The Guru said, "All right, they will be forgiven when the mouths that have insulted will sincerely sing His praises."
     
  21. Canuck Singh

    Canuck Singh
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    I have never personally bothered with debates as to definitions etc., but I think that many people have taken time to respond here and so shall I share what I have come to know...

    Definition's are ego's friendly companion's. With definition's the ego finds a place and pedestal upon which it can thrive. What is ego? It is Edging God Out as stated by an individual who has passed in north america. Whenever someone define's another person, they do not define that person by their own definition, rather they define themselves (their egoic self) as someone who needs to place labels upon another person.

    This is a rather gray area, because when it comes to distinguishing things in reality, for example a person who is American it helps to know their place of origin. But when 'American' becomes an egoic identification with a superficial sense of self, then its purpose is lost and the individual whom in their patriotic sense of self places themselves at the top of the world. Why is it that when American's define themselves as American they are proud that they are primarily responsible for much of the economical and destructive forces playing in the world. Why is it that American's feel 'they' will fulfill the manifest destiny, why is it that 'they' feel that 'others' are the enemy? WHy is it that people rarely question the definition of an American, but they question often the definition of a Sikh, which by its very nature is inclusive and humble compared to that of American? 'American Sikh' is almost a classical paradox. On one hand a power hungry materialistic definition that purports that it stands for freedom, and on the other hand a humble self inquisitive definition that is struggling for freedom.

    All of this is a function or rather dysfunction of the mind, known as the ego. There is group ego, such as seen in national pride. Most of the world's atrocities have occurred by normal people who in times have become satan on earth. Examples include the various Genocides, Partition in India etc. Group think and mindlessness diffuses the responsibility of the individual to the group. This is known in research that has studied the diffusion of responsibility of self, and in legal courts a group of people can get away with murder so long as the Instigator is discovered. Interesting...
    Another level of ego, is the transient Role Playing ego. This is the level at which the mind needs to identify with a role to create a sense of self purpose. This is seen with the teenage child who plays nice and courteous in front of family, and is wild and ravenous with friends, and a disgruntled student at school. The ego feeds off of role playing, being sucked into the realities that each situation creates. Is it the environment that create's the person? No, it is the ego that identifies with the role. The ego will actively pursue it's self creation, and by identifying with that which continues to feed itself the ego pushes out rationality, discipline, and courtesy because it is bludgeoned with a sense of survival. The ego constantly adapts and feeds off these various roles.
    Another state of the ego, is that of the individual and of their own experience of their mind. A person confined to a cell does not last long before mental health deteriorates. Why is this? When the ego is not fed, the mind creates a dual self. Thoughts of "you are worthless, you are all alone, no on loves you" are given to the host (human) to coax it into believing that happiness is 'out there somewhere' and to force the host to feed the ego in another manner. The ego is temporarily fed with anger, lust, and chasing of materialistic possessions. Take that person out of their cell now, and the ego will continue to feed upon the environment of the host. It will believe that "my happiness is in her/him, without them I will die", when in reality the ego will easily feed off another person just as easily. The ego always attacks the host, because it needs to be fed to survive. The ego will always Edge God Out, because it becomes thought, and the thoughts that it is is thoughts of self identification, and thoughts of anger, lust, materialism, jealousy, and others...

    In rare moments of existence the ego is pushed out of the way. This is due to a developing consciousness within the human. During primitive times when survival was important, the human existed almost purely out of ego. Fortunately this can be summed as thus " In the distant past, sheer necessity brought us together in first chakra consciousness. Think of the pioneer couple on the wagon train traveling across the country to start their own homestead. Their relationship was one of survival: work the farm, till the field and have children to help with the non-stop physical workload. Fast forward to the Victorian era. The Victorians: the angst and drama, love from the wrong side of the tracks (Romeo and Juliet). This is second chakra consciousness; coming together from a longing to merge with another human being, passion, fantasy, no boundaries and very messy.
    Third Chakra consciousness is all about personal power and the little ‘s’ self. Dynamics of submission and domination prevail. Relationships become more like business arrangements. You do this for me, and I will do this for you. Secretly, we may view our partner as our enemy and spend our days just waiting to be betrayed."
    Although this describes a personal level of human consciousness, it can be applied to the greater scale as well. We can see that ego is primarily at the center, but necessarily for human survival. The ego can not survive without the host so it is necessary for the host to survive. Yet, the host could easily survive without the ego if and when there was something to replace it.


    What is there to replace it? Gurbani says that amongst millions, rare is that individual who has Love of the Lord in their heart. Very few and rare individuals' realized and accepted the True reality in their lifetimes, and here we are today attempting to discern their message...
     

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