Welcome to SPN

Register and Join the most happening forum of Sikh community & intellectuals from around the world.

Sign Up Now!

Who is Really a Sikh

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Sikh80, Dec 13, 2007.

Tags:
  1. Sikh80

    Sikh80
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,369
    Likes Received:
    54
    I am born in a sikh family. We are not Amritdhari's. We are from India But most of My cousins are in US. They migrated sometimes after 1984 riots. I have also seen those days and have the vivid memories as to how my father had to run from a house to another neighbour's house. My mother was reduced to a pulp in the process. In five days all of us were without steam. No one cursed Sikhi. But in the bottom of Heart everyone wanted to change the outer Garb. It was very difficult for my father and he refused bluntly.He was in a fit. I would be of 4/5 years. I do remember as to how my 'juda' was chopped of in the Barber's. My brothers also went inside and came as a different person. They had pearls of tears in the corners of the eyes. They supported the Father. The barber waived at us and did not ask for anything in return of the service. I remember that we had not had food for 3 days. No one talked of hunger.

    Once the dust was settled my father recovered.He resigned from the Government service and we had to vacate the Government flat/house. He wanted to feel strong again. He was past 40 and was well built and loved Sikhi. He was more religious than my mother. He ,with his little capital, started Hosiery business from a rented house and had to visit Ludhiana and Amritsar almost every week. It was nice to be with HIM. It was good to see him working. Slowly I developed a great respect for him and for his patience. He could do every job under the sun. He stopped smiling and laughing. I was his pet. In the evning he used to tell me the importance of being well read. He chalked out a plan for me and as to how he planned me to study so that I get the best education that is available in India.

    He made all arrangements for my elder brothers to move to US. They are even now in Calif and are with IBM and are fairly rich if they come to India. But they don't like. They do their Paath regularly but do not keep hair or wear turban. With great difficulty I was persuaded to keep hairs and wear Turban. I did only to please my father. He died young when I was only 16. But he died as a sikh. He impressed upon me the advantages of being a sikh. I used to listen to him but was not hearing to him.

    Now that he was no more His voice used to be with me.I never thought of chopping off my hair. But I was not in GUrbani. It is only about an year back that I have taken to electronic copy of the scriptures and have started making concepts of sikhism.

    I am not an Amritdhari and do not want to be. I shall stick to it. I may be an Amritdhari if I am advised as to how to be. I can easily get a plum job in US. But I prefer India. I have mom with me. She is not well. That is all about me.

    Sometimes , I think if I am really a sikh or I am just wearing a look of sikh. Kindly advise. I want to be a sikh but there are many temptations to not to be..................Does it matter to have hair and wear pink and navy blue turban. I am 6ft plus and have a very attractive personality when I am dressed up.

    Say me luck........
     
  2. Loading...


  3. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Sikh80
    This is an amazing and moving story. It says more about the tests to which you and your family were put. Your health, safety and even your identity and religion have been tested. I understand better now why you are so persistent in your struggle to understand. Please forgive me if I have been harsh. Sometimes it is hard to know if someone is just talking religion to hear himself talk. Or if he is working out problems and asking others to join in the effort from a genuine desire to know. You are working out all the puzzles that face your in the way you know.

    Only in the tiniest voice I say this -- think again of your father and try to hear him. How would he explain all these things. Sometimes just let the word of Guruji speak to you. Don't try to analyze it all the time. Analysis is fine, just not all the time.
     
  4. clarkejoey

    clarkejoey
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2007
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    2
    Good luck mate, and all the blessings you need.

    I can barely even relate to your situation, except the feelings in it. But it sounds like you have the right attitude: just remain faithful, continue to study. I'm sure Guru will let you know where to go and what to do.

    Sending love and prayers for you and your dear mother.
     
  5. Sikh80

    Sikh80
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,369
    Likes Received:
    54
    Thanks Aadji and Clarkejoy for being with me for some time. I was going thru and came through the following lines.

    ijqu ko lwieAw iqq hI lgwnw ] (914-10, rwmklI, mÚ 5)
    As the Lord attaches us, so we are attached.

    jo qum@ krhu soeI Bl mwnau mn qy CUtY sgl gumwnu ] (824-5, iblwvlu, mÚ 5)
    Whatever You do, I accept as good. I have eradicated all egotistical pride from my mind.
    I think that everything is pre-ordained and we just move as we are told to. There is not much pain left now. Everything has evaporated with time ,however, it has left some bruises on the mind. May be with time I get it over. But why was I selected? I hope there is no answer. May be my past karmas. It is only the way to solace.Kindly do not respond to it.
    I am ok.
    Thanks again.
     
  6. seeking truth

    seeking truth
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2007
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sat Sri Akaal Ji,
    I think its really a personal decision i think you should not do something unless you know why u are doing being a sikh to have faith in guru and chant his name all the time and try to read and understand few pages of gurbani everyday with curiousty not doing paath and things will change your life and with saying his mantar all the time will lead you to light so then you can make a decision on your what to do and what is right and wrong
     
  7. Sikh80

    Sikh80
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,369
    Likes Received:
    54
    Dear friend,
    If stomach requires food mind requires its feed as well. Yes, it has to be spiritual feed. Do I have a choice.? For sikhi to me is almost my father. Not to be a sikh will be the last thing that I would consider.

    Yes, developing faith and devotion is another matter. Even developing a feeling of awe for HIM is also not feasible if one has undergone a trauma. My options are limited so far as religion is concerned. I have few relations and friends and acquaintances who would invariably happen to be sikh. It is always better to be within social norms to avoid a boycott. Things will not change much at least in this life. I have a story.Everyone has a story.And it shall go on.
    Coming back to sikhi a question that peeps back is

    " Do we have any free will".?

    Yes for me there is none. WE shall live out as per HIS game plan and it is within this fact that one has to seek happiness or contentment. There is nothing much that an individual can do.

    Thanks for your concern. I cannot exist without my turban and my outer garb even though I may not be a cent percent sikh. Let it be.
     
  8. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Sikh80 hi

    Though many will make the problem of free will in Sikhism into a clear-cut, bladk/white issue and offer simplistic answers, the fact is that there are a variety of explanations of free-will offered by Sikh theologians and religious scholars. Overall the answer is NO, but it is a qualified NO. And the same can be said for most religions and ethical theories world-wide. So also western philosophers, in general, argue that free-will is limited, and that the pure exercise of free-will would lead to social and moral chaos.

    The Sikh view may be even more sophisticated - because the relationship between man and God calls for reconciliation of Ego with the Divine hukam. At this link, is an essay which explains that the Divine mediates the quest for balance between freedom and karma. Gateway to Sikhism : Sikhism FAQs:Is there Fate or Freewill, according to Sikhism?

    Sikhism affirms the omnipotence of God and consequently modifies the concept of Karma. Man is not a helpless puppet. The course of fate may be compared to the flow of a river, while individual action may look like an eddy, or a whirlpool or a wave.

    Man has a dual role: firstly, as a person in a particular community and environment, working under certain limitations, and secondly, as an individual with a free will, wanting to do this thing or that to elevate himself. He is like a merchant trading with a certain capital. He may lose it or invest it wisely, to earn profit. He is free to sow the seed, but once he has done so, he has no option other than to reap the fruit. Predestination is responsible for the present; but the present gives us an opportunity to mould our future. It is just like the rotation and revolutions of the earth. The earth revolves around the sun and is influenced by it, but it also has its own motion.

    According to Sikhism, man is an action being, a Karma Yogi, who has to overcome his difficulties with understanding and wisdom. The effort of the individual should take the form of detached action and not, feeding his ego. He must work altruistically, for mankind, and not for the self.

    Spiritual effort has to be blessed by Divine favour in order to be successful. This effort requires self-surrender, to His Will. If man works selfishly, in Maya, he suffers; if he works selflessly according to the Will of God he is saved. This self-surrender is a conscious effort to win divine grace. The self-effort is to bring the Divine Will and individual free will into harmony. That is how the two wills become reconciled. Man's salvation lies in his own effort to drown his Ego in the Divine Will.

    Guru Nanak explains the point through a metaphor:
    "The mind is the paper on which are recorded in the sum of our deeds, good and bad, the impressions, of the habits of our cumulataive past. Against this, and limitless are the virtues of our Lord, for He turneth dross into gold and the fires(passions) of the body extinguish."


    A good friend of mine explained the idea of reconciliation this way: Understanding comes before Obedience.

    And another way to think about your question:
    suixAY AMDy pwvih rwhu (SGGS: Ang 3)
     
  9. Sikh80

    Sikh80
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,369
    Likes Received:
    54
    Thank you for such a nice post. I have read it twice and will read it for two more times after doing this message. Have you ever come across the term Free will in The Granth sahib. Thanks again for a very inspiring post that is full of wisdom. You must have devoted quite a time on this.
    Regards.
     
  10. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Sikh80

    You asked
    Have you ever come across the term Free will in The Granth sahib.

    I don't believe I have, but now that you ask it is worth checking. The matter of free will is a relatively modern concept (Later after researching free will, I discovered I am wrong. Free will is an ancient idea). And I am wondering when the idea first came into currency -- just as a religious matter in any religion. When did this idea come into being? Is it in any of the scriptures? Question to put to the experts.

    Will check into this and get back to you. What a great topic for discussion for Inter-Faith Dialog!
     
    #9 spnadmin, Dec 14, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 14, 2007
  11. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Sikh80 - Did not take more than a few minutes to discover that free will is actually an ancient concept. It was discussed by the Roman philosopher Lucretius, who studied the thinking of the Greek philosopher Epicurus. Philosphers after Lucretius claimed that free-will was the origin of ordinary consciousness or the ability to know Nature. Later Schopenhauer (German philosopher) was to state that consciousness was the Will to Know, that without the Will to Know human intellect was not more than that of a lower animal.

    Of course all this is about day to day intellect, not consciousness of something greater than our experience of maya. And these thinkers are talking about ordinary mind, knowledge of material reality -- not in spiritual terms per se.

    Another interesting find: The Protestant theologian John Calvin (16th Century CE) said this,

    “Concerning the tree of knowledge of good and evil, we must hold, that it was prohibited to man, not because God would have him to stray like a sheep, without judgment and without choice; but that he might not seek to be wiser than became him, nor by trusting to his own understanding,
    cast off the yoke of God....And this is the origin of freewill, that Adam wished to be independent..”

    And more interesting, Guru Nanaak Dev ji in Sri Raag said this,

    AMqir lwgI jil buJI pwieAw gurmuiK igAwnu ]1] rhwau ]

    Will send translation if requested by pm.
     
  12. Sikh80

    Sikh80
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,369
    Likes Received:
    54
    Thanks aad200 ji for enlightening post.

    *************************************
    Can anyone enlighten if Sikhism contain
    the concept Of Free will?
    *******************************************
     
  13. Archived_Member1

    Archived_Member1
    Expand Collapse
    gone to greener pastures
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2007
    Messages:
    934
    Likes Received:
    28

    sikhism has the illusion of free will. :) we all know about karma... ape beej ape hi kahu (what you sow, you shall reap)

    but we're also told: vada sahib vadi nai kita ja ka hovai... (great is the master, whatever happens is according to his will).

    ultimately, everything is god's will. however, we feel that we have free will, we act as if we have free will, and we receive benefit or punishment according to our karma.

    hope this makes sense...
     
  14. Sikh80

    Sikh80
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,369
    Likes Received:
    54
    It does.
    But The theory Of karma in sikhism is vague as the timings of the fructification is not specified nor is it clear as to what will we be reaping as to what we sow. Karmic theory is not a copy Of Gita as well that gives in lenght the science Of soul and karmas.
    Sikhism is ,like many religions,full Of pre-ordained, HIS Grace, HIS will, HIs Hukum, HIS Naam/H IS simran/HIS DEVOTION/HIS KEERTAN and even then... no result is specified. It is not hypothetical but one would be required to develop a great faith and that also is stated to be as per his Grace.
    U R Right there is no free will here in sikhi.
     

Share This Page