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Who is "Mohan"?

Discussion in 'Questions and Answers' started by Ishna, May 26, 2012.

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  1. Ishna

    Ishna
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    Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Ang 248:

    ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ
    Ga▫oṛī mėhlā 5.
    Gauree, Fifth Mehl:
    ਮੋਹਨ ਤੇਰੇ ਊਚੇ ਮੰਦਰ ਮਹਲ ਅਪਾਰਾ
    Mohan ṯere ūcẖe manḏar mahal apārā.
    O Mohan, your temple is so lofty, and your mansion is unsurpassed.
    ਮੋਹਨ ਤੇਰੇ ਸੋਹਨਿ ਦੁਆਰ ਜੀਉ ਸੰਤ ਧਰਮ ਸਾਲਾ
    Mohan ṯere sohan ḏu▫ār jī▫o sanṯ ḏẖaram sālā.
    O Mohan, your gates are so beautiful. They are the worship-houses of the Saints.
    ਧਰਮ ਸਾਲ ਅਪਾਰ ਦੈਆਰ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਸਦਾ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਗਾਵਹੇ
    Ḏẖaram sāl apār ḏai▫ār ṯẖākur saḏā kīrṯan gāvhe.
    In these incomparable worship-houses, they continually sing Kirtan, the Praises of their Lord and Master.
    ਜਹ ਸਾਧ ਸੰਤ ਇਕਤ੍ਰ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਤਹਾ ਤੁਝਹਿ ਧਿਆਵਹੇ
    Jah sāḏẖ sanṯ ikaṯar hovėh ṯahā ṯujẖėh ḏẖi▫āvhe.
    Where the Saints and the Holy gather together, there they meditate on you.
    ਕਰਿ ਦਇਆ ਮਇਆ ਦਇਆਲ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਹੋਹੁ ਦੀਨ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਰਾ
    Kar ḏa▫i▫ā ma▫i▫ā ḏa▫i▫āl su▫āmī hohu ḏīn kirpārā.
    Be Kind and Compassionate, O Merciful Lord; be Merciful to the meek.
    ਬਿਨਵੰਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਦਰਸ ਪਿਆਸੇ ਮਿਲਿ ਦਰਸਨ ਸੁਖੁ ਸਾਰਾ ॥੧॥
    Binvanṯ Nānak ḏaras pi▫āse mil ḏarsan sukẖ sārā. ||1||
    Prays Nanak, I thirst for the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan; receiving Your Darshan, I am totally at peace. ||1||
    ਮੋਹਨ ਤੇਰੇ ਬਚਨ ਅਨੂਪ ਚਾਲ ਨਿਰਾਲੀ
    Mohan ṯere bacẖan anūp cẖāl nirālī.
    O Mohan, your speech is incomparable; wondrous are your ways.
    ਮੋਹਨ ਤੂੰ ਮਾਨਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਜੀ ਅਵਰ ਸਭ ਰਾਲੀ
    Mohan ṯūʼn mānėh ek jī avar sabẖ rālī.
    O Mohan, you believe in the One. Everything else is dust to you.
    ਮਾਨਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਅਲੇਖੁ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਜਿਨਹਿ ਸਭ ਕਲ ਧਾਰੀਆ
    Mānėh ṯa ek alekẖ ṯẖākur jinėh sabẖ kal ḏẖārī▫ā.
    You adore the One Lord, the Unknowable Lord and Master; His Power gives Support to all.
    ਤੁਧੁ ਬਚਨਿ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਵਸਿ ਕੀਆ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਬਨਵਾਰੀਆ
    Ŧuḏẖ bacẖan gur kai vas kī▫ā āḏ purakẖ banvārī▫ā.
    Through the Guru's Word, you have captured the heart of the Primal Being, the Lord of the World.
    ਤੂੰ ਆਪਿ ਚਲਿਆ ਆਪਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਆਪਿ ਸਭ ਕਲ ਧਾਰੀਆ
    Ŧūʼn āp cẖali▫ā āp rahi▫ā āp sabẖ kal ḏẖārī▫ā.
    You Yourself move, and You Yourself stand still; You Yourself support the whole creation.
    ਬਿਨਵੰਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਪੈਜ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਸਭ ਸੇਵਕ ਸਰਨਿ ਤੁਮਾਰੀਆ ॥੨॥
    Binvanṯ Nānak paij rākẖo sabẖ sevak saran ṯumārī▫ā. ||2||
    Prays Nanak, please preserve my honor; all Your servants seek the Protection of Your Sanctuary. ||2||
    ਮੋਹਨ ਤੁਧੁ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਧਿਆਵੈ ਦਰਸ ਧਿਆਨਾ
    Mohan ṯuḏẖ saṯsangaṯ ḏẖi▫āvai ḏaras ḏẖi▫ānā.
    O Mohan, the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation, meditates on you; they meditate on the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan.
    ਮੋਹਨ ਜਮੁ ਨੇੜਿ ਆਵੈ ਤੁਧੁ ਜਪਹਿ ਨਿਦਾਨਾ
    Mohan jam neṛ na āvai ṯuḏẖ jāpėh niḏānā.
    O Mohan, the Messenger of Death does not even approach those who meditate on You, at the last moment.
    ਜਮਕਾਲੁ ਤਿਨ ਕਉ ਲਗੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਜੋ ਇਕ ਮਨਿ ਧਿਆਵਹੇ
    Jamkāl ṯin ka▫o lagai nāhī jo ik man ḏẖi▫āvhe.
    The Messenger of Death cannot touch those who meditate on You single-mindedly.
    ਮਨਿ ਬਚਨਿ ਕਰਮਿ ਜਿ ਤੁਧੁ ਅਰਾਧਹਿ ਸੇ ਸਭੇ ਫਲ ਪਾਵਹੇ
    Man bacẖan karam jė ṯuḏẖ arāḏẖėh se sabẖe fal pāvhe.
    Those who worship and adore You in thought, word and deed, obtain all fruits and rewards.
    ਮਲ ਮੂਤ ਮੂੜ ਜਿ ਮੁਗਧ ਹੋਤੇ ਸਿ ਦੇਖਿ ਦਰਸੁ ਸੁਗਿਆਨਾ
    Mal mūṯ mūṛ jė mugaḏẖ hoṯe sė ḏekẖ ḏaras sugi▫ānā.
    Those who are foolish and stupid, filthy with urine and manure, become all-knowing upon gaining the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan.
    ਬਿਨਵੰਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਜੁ ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਪੂਰਨ ਪੁਰਖ ਭਗਵਾਨਾ ॥੩॥
    Binvanṯ Nānak rāj nihcẖal pūran purakẖ bẖagvānā. ||3||
    Prays Nanak, Your Kingdom is Eternal, O Perfect Primal Lord God. ||3||
    ਮੋਹਨ ਤੂੰ ਸੁਫਲੁ ਫਲਿਆ ਸਣੁ ਪਰਵਾਰੇ
    Mohan ṯūʼn sufal fali▫ā saṇ parvāre.
    O Mohan, you have blossomed forth with the flower of your family.
    ਮੋਹਨ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਮੀਤ ਭਾਈ ਕੁਟੰਬ ਸਭਿ ਤਾਰੇ
    Mohan puṯar mīṯ bẖā▫ī kutamb sabẖ ṯāre.
    O Mohan, your children, friends, siblings and relatives have all been saved.
    ਤਾਰਿਆ ਜਹਾਨੁ ਲਹਿਆ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ਜਿਨੀ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਪਾਇਆ
    Ŧāri▫ā jahān lahi▫ā abẖimān jinī ḏarsan pā▫i▫ā.
    You save those who give up their egotistical pride, upon gaining the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan.
    ਜਿਨੀ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਧੰਨੁ ਕਹਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਜਮੁ ਨੇੜਿ ਆਇਆ
    Jinī ṯuḏẖno ḏẖan kahi▫ā ṯin jam neṛ na ā▫i▫ā.
    The Messenger of Death does not even approach those who call you 'blessed'.
    ਬੇਅੰਤ ਗੁਣ ਤੇਰੇ ਕਥੇ ਜਾਹੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪੁਰਖ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ
    Be▫anṯ guṇ ṯere kathe na jāhī saṯgur purakẖ murāre.
    Your Virtues are unlimited - they cannot be described, O True Guru, Primal Being, Destroyer of demons.
    ਬਿਨਵੰਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਟੇਕ ਰਾਖੀ ਜਿਤੁ ਲਗਿ ਤਰਿਆ ਸੰਸਾਰੇ ॥੪॥੨॥
    Binvanṯ Nānak tek rākẖī jiṯ lag ṯari▫ā sansāre. ||4||2||
    Prays Nanak, Yours is that Anchor, holding onto which the whole world is saved. ||4||2||

    Who is this Mohan? Sometimes it appears as a name for Karta Purakh, sometimes it appears to be referring to a person, but like that person is also God? SriGranth.org suggests Mohan was a son of Guru Amar Das?

    Thanks for any assistance.
     
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  3. Taranjeet singh

    Taranjeet singh India
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    A reference to Sahib singh's Teeka would show that 'Mohan' has been referred to the Almighty only. Kindly refer the link.It would be very helpful .

    http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=248&g=1&h=0&r=1&t=2&p=0&k=1&fb=0
     
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  4. Ishna

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    Thank you Taranjeet ji, but I don't know how to read Punjabi yet so Sahib Singh's teeka is beyond me.

    Bhai Manmohan Singh's translation is in stark contrast to the Professor's, but it still loses integrity with tuks like:

    O Mohan, thou believes in One. All else is as dust to Thee.

    Thou adorest the One incomputable Lord, who, through His Omnipotence is giving support to all the universe.

    By Guru's instruction, thou hast captured the heart of Creator, the Primal Being.

    Mohan believes Itself to be One, adores Itself and by Guru's instruction captured It's own heart?

    Perhaps the essence of this shabad (and reference to Mohan) is being majorly lost in translation.

    If there is any way Sahib Singh's teeka can be summarised by a kind member here if it will help to clarify I would be very grateful.
     
    #3 Ishna, May 26, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  5. Kanwaljit Singh

    Kanwaljit Singh India
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    Mohan refers to God as a Charmer.

    We might be charmed for some time by Maya in our life, but once we are in awe of Akaal Purakh, nothing else can entice us!
     
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  6. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Ishna Bhain thanks for your post.
    My understanding of the Shabad below,

    Oh the tempter of mind creator, high the places of worship, mansions that cannot see beyond


    Oh the tempting creator, the pious so sitting at the footsteps and places of piety.

    Places of piety and benevolence, oh creator giver, your virtues are recited

    Wherever the pious and the learned gather, you are contemplated upon
    Show benevolence the enchanting giving creator, so the feeble be saved

    Nanak humbly prays for visualization, meeting will provide all the comforts
    The tempting creator, your utterances beyond praise and ways so wonderful

    The tempting creator, you believe in one and rest is all destructible


    Creator beleiving in one and so describing, the one supporting all so created

    In the teachings of the creator one so encompasses the creator from the beginning

    You by self moving, by self staying and by self creating all that is.

    Nanak prays to be saved the honor, all the humble servants at your footsteps
    The tempting creator, the truthful congregation contemplates so visualizing in thoughts

    The tempting creator, the demon of death does not come near when to the end one contemplates upon you

    The one’s contemplating you in mind don’t get touched by the demon of death
    Words embedded in mind, the acts in consonance carried out, so find all the desired results

    One’s residing in defecation and urine even become wise in so visualizing

    Nanak prays the kingdom eternal, of the complete persona creator

    The tempting creator, you so blossomed with the family


    The tempting creator, you so salvage all of sons, friends and clans


    World salvaged, the ego removed, those who so visualized

    The ones’s so speaking of the virtuous values, the demon of death does not come near such

    Limitless virtues that cannot be described, the supreme eternal creator
    Nanak in praying so sought support, in association where the whole universe so salvaged

    I stand corrected and all errors are mine.

    Now Ishna Bhain, I wish you could create a paragraph or two of your understanding of the essence of this Shabad! If you need help let me know but never be afraid of making an error as then one cannot even begin.

    Sat Sri Akal. welcomemunda

    PS: Bhai Manmohan Singh ji did not do English translation. He provided meaning and his description of the same for Gurbani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa ji did a translation that appears mostly based on Bhai Manmohan Singh ji's Teeka. So this two step process with essential total dependency upon someone's meanings can potentially cause issues.

    So when people ask me to do so with Prof. Sahib Singh ji's work, I refuse. Instead, I read Bhai Manmohan Singh ji's work, Prof. Sahib Singh ji's work and read the Gurbani by self and my understanding develops out of these three aspects. I am as human as any and errors are likely in what I post and I try to improve.
     
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    #5 Ambarsaria, May 26, 2012
    Last edited: May 27, 2012
  7. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    Some Ragis and pracharak based on bhagat mal stories, refer Mohan to Baba Mohan son of Guru Amardas. They interpret that Guru Arjan Dev Ji went to the place of Baba Mohan and begged from him the pothi which according to these stories was in the custody of Baba Mohan.

    Logically speaking, pothi was so dear to our Gurus that they will never part away with it irrespective of any situation. And our Gurus were not chamcha that in order to get back they will sing song in favor of Baba Mohan which is against the ideology of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Therefore, Mohan is the descriptive name of God.

    Best regards
    Mohinder Singh Kuwait
     
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    #6 japjisahib04, May 26, 2012
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  8. Kanwaljit Singh

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    Another shabad which talks about Mohan:

    ਮੋਹਨਿ ਮੋਹਿ ਲੀਆ ਮਨੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਬੰਧਨ ਖੋਲਿ ਨਿਰਾਰੇ ॥
    The Fascinating Lord has fascinated my mind; releasing me from bondage, He has set me free.
     
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  9. Parma

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    Mohan is a sanskrit word which can mean delightful, charming and attractive. So that word is obviously being used to describe that attribute of god, not a person! It is like using the word precious, some people in english call their children by that name it does not really mean that they are precious only that is a name attributed to them! (Will precious to the parents maybe) Like Singh means lion, it does not make you an animal!
     
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  10. Ishna

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    Thanks everyone for your comments. Thanks Parma ji for providing the etymology of the word 'Mohan' - I didn't know it meant 'fascinating' etc so that does indeed change the focus of the shabad.

    Ambarsaria ji, I'm not brave enough to share my understanding of shabads yet. I'm still in the groundwork phase where I'm learning around them myself, if I provide too much of my own thoughts in a public forum I think I run the risk of spreading misinterpretation.

    Many thanks.
     
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  11. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Ishna ji thanks for your post. No worries.
    Here is my understanding of the Eessence of this shabad,
    All errors are mine and I stand corrected.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  12. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh United States
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    Parmaji, I think you've nailed it spot on.
    It's so easy to divert away, but this is probably the explanation that helps conquer the translations much better.
    I did attempt my own translations trying to do word for word, but they didn't give me anything new or different, so I haven't posted them for this reason.

    Well done!
     
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  13. BhagatSingh

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    Ishna ji,
    Normally Mohan is the most common name for Krishna in Gurbani. Other common names include Gobind and Gopal, etc.

    Quickly: Kanwaljit ji is correct. Krishna is called Mohan, the seducer, the enticer, when He seduces the Gopis, the village girls. They are fascinated by his dark form1 and flute2 and want to be His bride. Krishna's stories have led to a sort of Indian romanticism, where the Bhagat singers relate to Krishna as one of the Gopis, wanting to be his bride.
    The shabads "mohan moh liya man mera"3 is part of this romanticism. This romanticism is also very noticeable in other parts, of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. E.g. when you read 'soul-bride' in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, this is what it's talking about, this is what's happening behind the scenes. The actual word 'sohagan' just means 'bride' but given the divine nature of Krishna and the divine nature of this relationship with the Bhagat, it is translated as 'soul-bride'.

    Mohan Moheliya Man Mera - Bhai Gurpreet Singh Shimla Wale - YouTube


    But Mohan in the shabad you have posted is referring to the eldest sahibzada of Guru Amardas ji, who took care of the pothi. If I remember correctly, he was in a state of samadhi and wouldn't pay any attention to Bhai Gurdas ji, who was sent first, and no attention to Baba Buddha ji who was sent after. Finally Guru Arjan Dev ji went himself and sang this serenade, thus attracting his attention to him, proving to the caretaker his humility and gaining respect as the Guru. Bhai Mohan came out and gave Guru Sahib the pothiyan after which Guru ji sang the 4th pauri blessing Bhai Mohan taht him and his whole family has been saved.

    There's a bit more to it. Bhai Mohan being enlightened himself is (has become, merged with) Mohan as well. And you'll see both God/man, both Bhai Mohan and Mohan (karta purakh) being referred to as Mohan in the shabad. No need to separate them. Just as Satguru refers refers to God/Guru alike, so is Mohan in this shabad.

    The fact that this serenade is to Bhai Mohan, becomes clear in the shabad quite early. Here:
    ਮੋਹਨ ਤੂੰ ਮਾਨਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਜੀ ਅਵਰ ਸਭ ਰਾਲੀ ॥
    Mohan ṯūʼn mānėh ek jī avar sabẖ rālī.
    O Mohan, you believe in the One. Everything else is dust to you.
    ਮਾਨਹਿ ਤ ਏਕੁ ਅਲੇਖੁ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਜਿਨਹਿ ਸਭ ਕਲ ਧਾਰੀਆ ॥
    Mānėh ṯa ek alekẖ ṯẖākur jinėh sabẖ kal ḏẖārī▫ā.
    You adore the One Lord, the Unknowable Lord and Master; His Power gives Support to all.
    ਤੁਧੁ ਬਚਨਿ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਵਸਿ ਕੀਆ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਬਨਵਾਰੀਆ ॥
    तुधु बचनि गुर कै वसि कीआ आदि पुरखु बनवारीआ ॥
    Ŧuḏẖ bacẖan gur kai vas kī▫ā āḏ purakẖ banvārī▫ā.
    Through the Guru's (Guru Amrdas's) Word, you have captured the heart of the Primal Being, the Lord of the World.

    Blessing:
    ਮੋਹਨ ਤੂੰ ਸੁਫਲੁ ਫਲਿਆ ਸਣੁ ਪਰਵਾਰੇ ॥
    मोहन तूं सुफलु फलिआ सणु परवारे ॥
    Mohan ṯūʼn sufal fali▫ā saṇ parvāre.
    O Mohan, you have blossomed forth with the flower of your family.

    ਮੋਹਨ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਮੀਤ ਭਾਈ ਕੁਟੰਬ ਸਭਿ ਤਾਰੇ ॥
    मोहन पुत्र मीत भाई कुट्मब सभि तारे ॥
    Mohan puṯar mīṯ bẖā▫ī kutamb sabẖ ṯāre.
    O Mohan, your children, friends, siblings and relatives have all been saved.

    ਤਾਰਿਆ ਜਹਾਨੁ ਲਹਿਆ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ਜਿਨੀ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
    तारिआ जहानु लहिआ अभिमानु जिनी दरसनु पाइआ ॥
    Ŧāri▫ā jahān lahi▫ā abẖimān jinī ḏarsan pā▫i▫ā.
    You save those who give up their egotistical pride, upon gaining the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan.

    ਜਿਨੀ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਧੰਨੁ ਕਹਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਜਮੁ ਨੇੜਿ ਨ ਆਇਆ ॥
    जिनी तुधनो धंनु कहिआ तिन जमु नेड़ि न आइआ ॥
    Jinī ṯuḏẖno ḏẖan kahi▫ā ṯin jam neṛ na ā▫i▫ā.
    The Messenger of Death does not even approach those who call you 'blessed'.

    ਬੇਅੰਤ ਗੁਣ ਤੇਰੇ ਕਥੇ ਨ ਜਾਹੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪੁਰਖ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
    बेअंत गुण तेरे कथे न जाही सतिगुर पुरख मुरारे ॥
    Be▫anṯ guṇ ṯere kathe na jāhī saṯgur purakẖ murāre.
    Your Virtues are unlimited - they cannot be described, O True Guru, Primal Being, Destroyer of demons.

    ਬਿਨਵੰਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਟੇਕ ਰਾਖੀ ਜਿਤੁ ਲਗਿ ਤਰਿਆ ਸੰਸਾਰੇ ॥੪॥੨॥
    बिनवंति नानक टेक राखी जितु लगि तरिआ संसारे ॥४॥२॥
    Binvanṯ Nānak tek rākẖī jiṯ lag ṯari▫ā sansāre. ||4||2||
    Prays Nanak, Yours is that Anchor, holding onto which the whole world is saved. ||4||2||


    In case the links don't work
    1- page 335
    2- page 998
    3- page 1197
     
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  14. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    SGGS contains many "names" which the ignorant think refers to human beings....SGGS is ABOUT the Creator, OF the Creator and BY the Creator-Guru-Satguru - Bani GURU..Guru hai Bani..vich Bani AMRIT sareh. Unless there is a clear cut human reference - like the Ram who cried when he lost his wife Sita to Ravan...all these - Raam, Ravan, Sita, lazman etc are HUMANS....But not in other places where Raam means the CREATOR.
    Japjisahib04 made the most credible assertion that the GURBANI penned by and collected from various sources by GURU NANAK JI was such a Valuable asset that Baba Nanak ji kept this "precious book" by His side all the time(testimony of Bhai Gurdass ji when Baba nanak and baba Mardana visited Mecca the Mullahs called upon Baba nanak to .."open your book"..and read to us what you have written about Hindus and Muslims.... It was THIS BOOK of Gurbani thta was the Mark of Gurgadee and passed on to the successor GURU..when Bhai lehna Ji was ordained GURU ANGAD JI by Guru Nanak ji sahib. Subsequently This book with additional Bani by Guru Anagd ji was passed on to Bhai Amardass ji when He in turn was ordained GURU Amardass ji..and so on. By this time the Gurbani must have grown to be contained in possibly more pothis than one...and by the time of Guru Arjun Ji, the "Alternative Pretender GURUS lineage" was getting into the "act" and possibly corrupting/reproducing their own versions of "gurbani" ( Hence Guru Amardass jis clear WARNING to SIKHS in anand SAHIB on KACHI BANI/FAKE BANI/Bani sans the Creator/Guru/Satguru and for Sikhs to stay away/avoid such Fake banis)..that GURU ARJUN JI made the monumental decision to recompile ALL the Authentic GURBANI into the AAD GRANTH. This also became a necessity because Guru Arjun ji himself was a most prolific writer of GUrbani..( in fact Guru Arjun ji compares to Guru nanak ji sahib in terms of Bani/shabads in SGGS). After the Shaheedee of Guru Arjun ji sahib and the difficulties of the child Guru Hargobind sahib being in Prison and his tender age etc..the Pretender Gurus lineage of Prithyi Chand his brotehr Mohan and their grandson Dhirmall etc did pen Fake Gurbani under Mahallas Chhevan/Satvaan ....when in fact Guur hargobind and Guru har rai ji never wrote any Gurbani (maybe that was done to help sangat distinguish the Fake Mahallas chhevan/Satvan). Later on Guru Teg bahdur Ji wrote a lot of Gurbani which was added to copies of the AAD Granth prepared in Guru teg bahadur jis presence and carry his signatures. Guru Gobind Singh ji Finalsied the SGGS and gave the Gurgadee to the Form we have today as SGGS.
     
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  15. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    Ambarsaia ji,
    That post is just false. There is no chamchagiri going on here. Just one enlightened man asking another enlightened man for the pothis by singing His/his praises to first get his attention.
     
  16. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    If I remember correctly, he was in a state of samadhi and wouldn't pay any attention to Bhai Gurdas ji, who was sent first, and no attention to Baba Buddha ji who was sent after. Finally Guru Arjan Dev ji went himself and sang this serenade, thus attracting his attention to him, proving to the caretaker his humility and gaining respect as the Guru. Bhai Mohan came out and gave Guru Sahib the pothiyan after which Guru ji sang the 4th pauri blessing Bhai Mohan that him and his whole family has been saved.

    S.Bhagat Singh Ji, Is it the ideology of gurbani to go into state of samadhi. When gurbani tells us to be awake and aware, 'savdhan ekagar cheet'.

    Please read the last line of the sabd which is central idea and essence of sabd, 'beant gun tere kathai n jaey satguru kathai murarai - guru sahib is appreciating the virtues of satgur and not Baba Mohan.

    When we delve a little deep, we will observe Guru sahib is not referring to worldly family but internal family and internal world.

    Best regards
    Mohinder Singh Sahni
     
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  17. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    So long as we keep on treating Gurbani as "human"..we keep falling into the trap..whereas Bani GURU - Guru hai BANI - holds sway. We keep ignoring the obvious fact that a GURU couldnt possibly .."lose control" of the central issue of Gurbani - Gurgadee wasnt passed down via any topis or red tilaks on foreheads..or 5 cents and coconuts...Gurgadee was passed on when the Successor became Enlightened and OnE w th the JYOT of Guru nanak ji. Ordinary "seats" may have been (and still are) passed down by tying turbans, and tilakking the successor ( deras pass over this way and some Nihung Jathebandis also pass over such ) BUt the Gurgadee of Nanak was NOT passed down this way. So the Gurbani POTHIS were never with anyone other than the GURU.
     
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  18. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    Yes, no doubts about this Mohinder Singh ji, not anymore.
    That's what samadhi means, to be awake and aware, savdhan ekagar cheet. But not (just) be awake and aware of the world. We can do that easily in our daily life... well relatively easily, most people function at a very low level of awareness. But to be awake and aware of the God inside. This is much more difficult. This also enhances worldly awareness. So doing this, seeing God in oneself ie. samadhi, will allow an individual to see God in others. What is written in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is revealed to be the practical Truth in samadhi. It is as if after listening to the shabad, the core of one's being touches this truth if it were an object that could be touched. For me it was less like touching but more like being hit by a wall. Hahaha:grinningsingh: at first nothing and simply lots of attempts, years and years of thinking and contemplating, then all of a sudden BAM! All doubts were cleared. Like Bhagat Kabir describes here http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=333&L=8. This shabad can only be understood in Samadhi or not at all.

    Anyway, as the sakhi goes after Guru Arjan Dev ji read the first Pauri Bhai Mohan tested him, said some harsh words, after the second pauri Bhai Mohan opened his doors, upon hearing the third, he came out with the pothi.

    The sakhi has been with us for many centuries I would not discount on it based on some (flawed) personal logic.


    beant gun tere kathai n jaey satguru purakh murarai
    I concede Guru Arjan Dev ji is addressing both in the same breath. He is playing on the word Mohan here. In India, an enlightened person is Rab Roopi, Image of God.
    That verse reads, your many qualities cannot be described True Guru, Image of Krishna (Murarai = slayer of demon Mura = Krishna)

    binwant nanak tek lagi jit lag tareya sansare
    You have supported me, and through this support (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) the world will be carried across, liberated.

    Now the reason why this is in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, is because it is also referring to the real Mohan, not just Bhai Mohan. Meaning outside of the context of the sakhi, and and in deeper reading like you suggest, we would conclude this is referring to Krishna and not some human. Don't get me wrong, I wholeheartedly believe this.


    I am well aware of how deep we can go here. As a general rule, with anything, the deeper you go, the more God you find. And this is shabad is clearly one of these cases.


    Gyani ji,
    It turns out Gurgaddi was passed down via topis and tilak, and coconut as well as via enlightement.
    [​IMG]
    That's Guru Amardas ji in a ceremony as he passes the Gurgaddi on to Guru Ramdas ji. Elsewhere I have read that during Guru Hargobind ji's ceremony, he asked Baba Buddha ji to put a turban and plume on him, instead of the traditional topi. History (sakhis and granths), Sikh art and preserved relics converge so much it is unbelievable.

    Cheers
     
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    #17 BhagatSingh, May 27, 2012
    Last edited: May 27, 2012
  19. Chinu

    Chinu
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    The word mohan is used for the thing which has captived the mind, That thing is Divine Sound.
     
  20. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Bhagat Singh ji perhaps you need to reflect and not be party to centuries of lies and mis-direction to malign the Gurus and SGGS. Read the reference and Prof. Sahib Singh ji's work where he categorically debunks the hypothesis that you have borrowed and pushed.
    [​IMG]

    The conclusion page which debunks the argument is as follows and the arguments are extremely well documented,

    [​IMG]

    So please don't try to open and push centuries old cancers and mis-information attempts as centuries don't make it right but simply support the level of malice and dis-respect people have shown and continue to show. Your posts being no exception and pretty sad coming from a person who appears to generally find his references well. However in this case sexiness and juiciness of the story seems to overcome wisdom with you. cheerleader

    The complete book available here,

    http://www.sikhbookclub.com/

    (http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/bani-sheikh-farid/38563-sikh-books-downloads.html)

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  21. Scarlet Pimpernel

    Scarlet Pimpernel
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    Veer Ji

    Our Fifth Guru dedicated two full Astpadi to praise of Saints ,that is a precedent perhaps ,personally I feel it is possible for a Guru to talk about contemporary matters like when he discussed the Mogul regime and practices of the day, we should be all advised us against Slander and make our speech as sweet as ice cream.
     
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    #20 Scarlet Pimpernel, May 28, 2012
    Last edited: May 28, 2012

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