Who Is Guru In Sikhism

[Sikh80]

SCANNED
Dear friends,

We all interpret bani as per our understanding. But sometime we feel that we may not be correct and seek the help of others to resolve the issue.
One of such issues for me is to understand Guru in terms of bani and Sikhism.

We have many kinds of references in The Granth Sahib:

• True Guru
• Sat Guru
• Perfect Guru
• Guru
• Granth Sahib
• Besides aad Guru, Jugaad guru, Sri Guru dev...etc

By default we are left with two meanings that we assign to the term.One may refer to the Primal Lord and other is the Granth sahib on the premise that bani is Nirankaar or it has been recommended so by the Tenth Master.


Let us look at Today's Hukumnama. I shall take up the English lines as it shall be helpful in making the point clear.

• The Perfect Guru has saved us. I sought the Sanctuary of the True Lord.

This line contains perfect Guru and God and states that perfect Guru has saved us and I sought the sanctuary of Lord. This makes it clear that the implication is that Perfect Guru and the Lord should be two different entities.

Who could be perfect Guru in the above lines.?

[As per that I understand perfect Guru and Lord should be the same but it is denied as per the above]

[July 1, 2008, Tuesday 04:30 AM. IST]

soriT mhlw 5 ] ​

TwiF pweI krqwry ] qwpu Coif gieAw prvwry ] guir pUrY hY rwKI ] srix scy kI qwkI ]1] prmysru Awip hoAw rKvwlw ] sWiq shj suK iKn mih aupjy mnu hoAw sdw suKwlw ] rhwau ] hir hir nwmu dIE dwrU ] iqin sglw rogu ibdwrU ] ApxI ikrpw DwrI ] iqin sglI bwq svwrI ]2] pRiB Apnw ibrdu smwirAw ] hmrw guxu Avguxu n bIcwirAw ] gur kw sbdu BieE swKI ] iqin sglI lwj rwKI ]3] bolwieAw bolI qyrw ] qU swihbu guxI ghyrw ] jip nwnk nwmu scu swKI ] Apuny dws kI pYj rwKI ]4]6]56]


(AMg: 622)

pMjwbI ivAwiKAw :

soriT mhlw 5 ] ​

hy BweI! ijs mnu`K dy AMdr krqwr ny TMf vrqw id`qI, aus dy prvwr (aus dy igAwn-ieMidAW ivkwrW dw) qwp C`f jWdw hY [ hy BweI! pUry gurU ny ijs mnu`K dI mdd kIqI, aus ny sdw kwiem rihx vwly prmwqmw dw Awsrw q`k ilAw [1[hy BweI! ijs mnu`K dw rwKw prmwqmw Awp bx jWdw hY, aus dw mn sdw vwsqy suKI ho jWdw hY (ikauNik aus dy AMdr) iek iCn ivc Awqmk Afolqw dy suK qy SWqI pYdw ho jWdy hn [rhwau[hy BweI! (ivkwr-rogW dw ielwj krn vwsqy gurU ny ijs mnu`K ) prmwqmw dw nwm-dvweI id`qI aus nwm-dwrU ny aus mnu`K dw swrw hI (ivkwr-) rog k`t id`qw [ jdoN pRBU ny aus mnu`K auqy AwpxI myhr kIqI, qW aus ny AwpxI swrI jIvn-khwxI hI sohxI bxw leI (Awpxw swrw jIvn sMvwr ilAw) [2[hy BweI! pRBU ny (sdw hI) Awpxy mu`F-kdImW dy (ipAwr vwly) suBwv cyqy r`iKAw hY [ auh swfw jIvW dw koeI gux jW AOgux idl qy lw nhIN r`Kdw [ (pRBU dI ikrpw nwl ijs mnu`K dy AMdr) gurU dy Sbd ny Awpxw pRBwv pwieAw, Sbd ny aus dI swrI ie`zq r`K leI (aus ivkwrW dy Fhy cVHn qoN bcw ilAw) [3[hy pRBU! qUM swfw mwlk hYN, qUM guxW dw ^zwnw hYN, qUM fUMGy ijgry vwlw hYN [ jdoN qUM pRyrnw dyNdw hYN qdoN hI mYN qyrI is&iq-swlwh kr skdw hW [ hy nwnk! sdw-iQr pRBU dw nwm jipAw kr, iehI sdw hwmI Brn vwlw hY [ pRBU Awpxy syvk dI (sdw) ie`zq r`Kdw AwieAw hY [4[6[56[
[SIZE=-1]English Translation :[/SIZE]

SORAT'H, FIFTH MEHL:​

The Creator has brought utter peace to my home; the fever has left my family. The Perfect Guru has saved us. I sought the Sanctuary of the True Lord. || 1 || The Transcendent Lord Himself has become my Protector. Tranquility, intuitive peace and poise welled up in an instant, and my mind was comforted forever. || Pause || The Lord, Har, Har, gave me the medicine of His Name, which has cured all disease. He extended His Mercy to me, and resolved all these affairs. || 2 || God confirmed His loving nature; He did not take my merits or demerits into account. The Word of the Guru's Shabad has become manifest, and through it, my honor was totally preserved. || 3 || I speak as You cause me to speak; O Lord and Friday, 23rd Poh (Samvat 538 Nanakshahi) Master, You are the ocean of excellence. Nanak chants the Naam, the Name of the Lord, according to the Teachings of Truth. God preserves the honor of His slaves. || 4 || 6 || 56 ||

Tuesday, 17th Assaar (Samvat 540 Nanakshahi)



Kindly clarify with your opinion as to what should we infer when there is a reference to Guru in Bani .


A
ibnu siqgur iknY n pwieE, ibnu siqgur iknY n pwieAw ]
Without the True Guru, no one has obtained the Lord; without the True Guru, no one has obtained the Lord.

Question-1
Is Satguru here the Lord or the Granth sahib?
By default I would place it as Granth sahib.


nwnk nwmu smwil qU gur kY hyiq Apwir ]5]20]53] (34-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
O Nanak, immerse yourself in the Naam, through the Infinite Love of the Guru. [/FONT]

Question -2

In the above line I shall prefer to place the meaning of Guru as the Lord HIMSELF or is there any possibility of making it look like Granth sahib.?

B.
siqguir hir pRBu buiJAw gur jyvfu Avru n koie ] (39-18, isrIrwgu, mÚ 4)
The True Guru understands the Lord God. There is no other as Great as the Guru.

If Satguru is Sabad guru and translation is correct, the meaning of 'true guru understands the Lord' shall have to be translated slightly in a different manner or will it mean literally that 'Granth sahib' understands the Lord God'. Seemingly I am not able to reconcile.

Similarly the next line 'there is no other Great as guru ' shall also mean that there is no one as great Granth sahib . It should ,however, mean that No one is as great as Lord.
[/FONT]
C
DMnu vfBwgI vf BwgIAw jo Awie imly gur pwis ]2] (40-7, isrIrwgu, mÚ 4)
Blessed, and most fortunate of the very fortunate, are those who come to meet the Guru. [/FONT]

Question-3
Who is referred to as guru in the above. ? I have intentionally put in 'one -liners' only to see if there is some standardization of the term. Guru/Satguru/perfect guru/Guru and similar words.


Kindly expand the above lines at B and C and also see questions 1,2 and 3 . Opinion of members would be highly appreciated. It was a long over due post but after spending almost an year or so I am not able to debug the meaning automatically.


Regards

Wjkk WjkF [/FONT]

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

We have only one Guru,Adi Ant Eakai Avtara Soi Guru Samjhiyo Hamara.

There can not be two Gurus at a time when it come for the single subject.Say we can not have two teacher in same class one teaching Maths and another also the same.Other could teach English.

So in spritul realm,As Guru Granth Sahib Ji say that All is Akal so Guru is Akal only.

Without Akal(sorry to be harsh) as Vedas and Katebs are useless so same emplies to our scriptures too.So Guru Granth Sahib Ji are manifestation of Akal in forms of word,which make another manifestation of Akal ie Human,unite with Akal(while they are alive).

So there should not be two thoughts,as that is dualism or Duja Bhav.Sahib Mera Eko Hai.My lord is one.Guru Granth Sahib Ji do not exist outside Akal.They are formed by Akal for salvation of Humans.All social and econmic benefit which teachings of this text gives us are due to its spritual powers ie our enlightenments makes us to behave well.Akal Bless.

 

[Sikh80]

Dear Vijaydeep ji,

I am in basic agreement that ultimate Guru should be the Lord Himself. However, there is some confusion on account of certain pre-fixes employed in Bani e.g. True Guru/perfect Guru/aad guru/jugaad /Sri Guru dev/Guru..........

Are These all to be read as the Primal Lord. or 'waheguru'?

Can we simplify the things to this level.?

I shall be grateful for a clear answer and it shall help me to come out of the groove that is already made in the neural paths.I hope you have read the post at Sl 1 to the thread.

Guidance is sought from the other members.

regards

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh
Page 485, Line 2
ਸਭੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਹੈ ਸਭੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਹੈ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਈ ॥
सभु गोबिंदु है सभु गोबिंदु है गोबिंद बिनु नही कोई ॥
Sabẖ gobinḏ hai sabẖ gobinḏ hai gobinḏ bin nahī ko­ī.
God is everything, God is everything. Without God, there is nothing at all.
Devotee Namdev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]
Page 1350, Line 18
ਮੇਰਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਰਵਿਆ ਸਰਬੇ ਠਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
मेरा प्रभु रविआ सरबे ठाई ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Mėrā parabẖ ravi­ā sarbė ṯẖā­ī. ||1|| rahā­o.
My God is All-pervading everywhere. ||1||Pause||
Devotee Namdev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

ang 988

ਸਭੈ ਘਟ ਰਾਮੁ ਬੋਲੈ ਰਾਮਾ ਬੋਲੈ ॥
सभै घट रामु बोलै रामा बोलै ॥
Sabẖai gẖat rām bolai rāmā bolai.
Within all hearts, the Lord speaks, the Lord speaks.

ਰਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਕੋ ਬੋਲੈ ਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
राम बिना को बोलै रे ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Rām binā ko bolai rė. ||1|| rahā­o.
Who else speaks, other than the Lord? ||1||Pause||

ਏਕਲ ਮਾਟੀ ਕੁੰਜਰ ਚੀਟੀ ਭਾਜਨ ਹੈਂ ਬਹੁ ਨਾਨਾ ਰੇ ॥
एकल माटी कुंजर चीटी भाजन हैं बहु नाना रे ॥
Ėkal mātī kunjar cẖītī bẖājan haiʼn baho nānā rė.
Out of the same clay, the elephant, the ant, and the many sorts of species are formed.

ਅਸਥਾਵਰ ਜੰਗਮ ਕੀਟ ਪਤੰਗਮ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਰੇ ॥੧॥
असथावर जंगम कीट पतंगम घटि घटि रामु समाना रे ॥१॥
Asthāvar jangam kīt paṯangam gẖat gẖat rām samānā rė. ||1||
In stationary life forms, moving beings, worms, moths and within each and every heart, the Lord is contained. ||1||

ਏਕਲ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਰਾਖੁ ਅਨੰਤਾ ਅਉਰ ਤਜਹੁ ਸਭ ਆਸਾ ਰੇ ॥
एकल चिंता राखु अनंता अउर तजहु सभ आसा रे ॥
Ėkal cẖinṯā rākẖ ananṯā a­or ṯajahu sabẖ āsā rė.
Remember the One, Infinite Lord; abandon all other hopes.

ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਨਾਮਾ ਭਏ ਨਿਹਕਾਮਾ ਕੋ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਕੋ ਦਾਸਾ ਰੇ ॥੨॥੩॥
प्रणवै नामा भए निहकामा को ठाकुरु को दासा रे ॥२॥३॥
Paraṇvai nāmā bẖa­ė nihkāmā ko ṯẖākur ko ḏāsā rė. ||2||3||
Naam Dayv prays, I have become dispassionate and detached; who is the Lord and Master, and who is the slave? ||2||3||
ang1147

ਦੀਨ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਤੇਰੀ ਟੇਕ ॥
दीन दुनीआ तेरी टेक ॥
Ḏīn ḏunī­ā ṯėrī tėk.
In this world and the next, I have Your Support.

ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਰਵਿਆ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਏਕ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
सभ महि रविआ साहिबु एक ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Sabẖ meh ravi­ā sāhib ėk. ||1|| rahā­o.
The One Lord, our Lord and Master, is all-pervading. ||1||Pause||


So brother God is very simple to be seen in our case,where you see that you find that.(Whereever you see with whole concentration there that lord is Chartropakhyan 266)

True Guru/perfect Guru/aad guru/jugaad /Sri Guru dev/Guru..........

So for True Guru,who else could be true then Lord.Mortal,books,all are created and will be destroyed(What is made that is destroyed ,happens today or tommorow,Salok Mahala Nauvan).Truth is eternal,so True Guru could be Eternal only and Eternal means Akal.

Perfect Guru-who else could be perfect,can one who depeands upon environment to survive or one who lets Environment survive for as long that lord wants.

Add or intial,who is primal other then one who only was,is only and will be only.Jugad ie Primal for ages.No created being could be like that.Only uncreated creator could bew like that.

Sri Guru Dev stand for Respected guide divine.Divine is also not created.Dev is driven from Divya or devine.

Even if we read in any text that Human or Text is refered to as a True Guru,it is True Akal Purakh,of which this human or text is a manifestation is refered to .Akal Bless.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

i never understand why

Waheguru = Lord ????

Koyi Bole Ram Ram, Koyi Khuda
Koyi Seve Gosain, Koyi Allah
Kaaran Karan Kareem
Kirpa Taar Raheem

 

[Sikh80]

Dear Vijaydeep ji,

Very many thanks for your reply.

I am not complaining about the attributes of God in Sikhism.
I have a question of very basic or crude in nature as I am ignorant and am trying to grapple with the semantic aspects of the Bani.May be with passage of time and with HIS grace I shall understand the meaning.However, I cannot assign 'Guru' to only 'Lord'.It may be so as per that you have stated in your above post. Reflcting upo this, yes it is true that HE is the Guru of our Gurus and hence is a super-Guru/Supreme Guru or the Lord.

My questions are related to as to how these concepts have got integrated in the bani and if one can standardize the meaning of the terms as stated in the earlier posts in this thread.

Let us take the following line for the purpose of understanding that you want to convey and I want to understand.


ibnu siqgur iknY n pwieE, ibnu siqgur iknY n pwieAw ]
Without the True Guru, no one has obtained the Lord; without the True Guru, no one has obtained the Lord.

1.

I shall presume that translation is correct and 'SatGuru' and 'Lord' should have different meanings else there would be a fallacy in translation.
[Point: Satguru and Lord are two different entities as referred to]

2.
siqgur ivic Awpu riKEnu, kir prgtu AwiK suxwieAw ]
He has placed Himself within the True Guru; revealing Himself, He declares this openly.


[Point:Again taking cue from the translation the 'satguru' and the 'Lord' should be two different entities as all that the line means that the Lord is accessible through Satguru.

gur AwgY kir jodVI jn nwnk hir mylwie ]10]1] (234-15, gauVI pUrbI, mÚ 4)
Offer your prayers to the Guru; O servant Nanak, He shall unite you with the Lord. ||10||1||

3. As per the above line also Guru and the Lord are two different entities.

One can cite other examples as well to state that the meaning in Bani should be assigned at micro-level and not at macro level.

One may assign those kinds of meaning when one understands the bani in it is entirety and I am not at that stage now. It is a grey area for me.I cannot say about other members.

I have all the reasons to believe that there is no standardization of these terms and the contextual reading is essential and in any case we are referring two types of Gurus i.e. Nirankaar or the Granth sahib and further at no place there is any room for our 10 Gurus to be taken as Guru in the sense that it should be understood in the spirit and the context of the thread.

The answers of Vijay ji were very helpful in exploring the attributes of Almighty and these were really thought provoking. I am ever grateful to Vijay ji for sharing these wonderful vaaks of Guru saibaan.

One is free to add if one likes, I have nothing more to ask .

Wjkk Wjkf

[/FONT]

 

[Sikh80]

http://www.sikhism.us/gurmat-vichaar/18393-understanding-gurbani-14.html


I have pasted the URl of the discussion which also deals with similar matter i.e. the difference between satguru and Lord. [kindly refer posts 134 and 135 of the thread]

The commentary of Dr.Sahib Singh ji also implies of Satguru and the Lord as two entities. Anyone having other ideas may post further.

 

[Honey22]

Sikh 80 Ji,

You are trying your best to verify sipiritual wisdom with human logic:yes:, human logic. I am not sure if this ever occur to you that this verification is Something Impossible. Anyways, after seeing you too much interested in such games of logic(impossible to be verified), here is another riddle you may be interested in:

How 1 >/= 125000 Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji. In our Guru's words it is possible. How can you verify this equation with your human logic!

Thanks Singh80 Ji. And very much Good Luck in your Games of Logic. Just a tip- Gurbani is Akath Ki Katha not a game of human logic.

 

[Honey22]

A mother calls her child with so many names: mera beta, mera puttar, mera laal, mera heera, mera mithu, meri jaan, mera armaan, meri ijjat, meri poonji, mera sabh kujh and many many more sweet things.
How one child can be these many entities at the same time, just joking Sikh 80 Ji.

 

[Sikh80]

Respected Honey22

I am not joking. I had some doubts that I posted. You have also not given your opinion but have just mocked at me. May be I do not understand things the way you do but I am entitled for the clarification if someone has to help me out.

With Best wishes

 

[Honey22]

Sikh 80 Ji,

It is simple: you are trying to verify Spiritual Wisdom with Human logic, which is impossible, no one can verify Spiritual Wisdom(Gurbani/Guru/Satguru/Gurudev/Lord/Waheguru) with any type of logical investigations(questions you are asking such as- "Who is Guru In Sikhism", it can easily be taken as you are doubting AND MAKING A MOCKERY OF Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji's decision that is being followed by the whole Sikh Community with GREAT GREAT RESPECT). Gurbani/Guru/Lord cant be defined through human logic. It is just not possible. No wonder 'Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Ji'/'Gurbani' is said to be- Akath Ki Katha/Anhad Bani/Naam Ratan/Nirankaar/Naam Amrit and much more, how can it be adequately described, You yourself been trying- with no answers-still your doubts remain. I hope you understand my point of view now . This is all I am trying to tell you brother, dont waste your time investigating as this type of investigation is not going to bear any fruit. Heeray Jaisa janam, dont let it go to waste.
There are a few very wellknown verses among oldies like myself:
rab ik gunjhaldaar bujhaarat rab ik gorakhdhandaa, gojh esde kholan lagyaan {censored} ho jai bandaa.

Falsafi Ko Behas K Ander Khuda Milta Nahi
Dour Ko Suljha Raha Hai Aur Sira Milta Nahi

You still want verifications- Good Luck Sikh 80 Ji.

 

[Honey22]

Gurbani tells the WAY to get rid of DOUBTS-multiple times my brother.



ਜਿਨੀ ਚਾਖਿਆ ਤਿਨੀ ਸਾਦੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਬਿਨੁ ਚਾਖੇ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਇ ॥
jinee chaakhiaa thinee saadh paaeiaa bin chaakhae bharam bhulaae ||
Those who have tasted it, enjoy its flavor; without tasting it, they wander in doubt, lost and deceived.
ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਾਚਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਹੈ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
anmrith saachaa naam hai kehanaa kashhoo n jaae ||
The True Name is the Ambrosial Nectar; no one can describe it.
ਪੀਵਤ ਹੂ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ਭਇਆ ਪੂਰੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੨॥
peevath hoo paravaan bhaeiaa poorai sabadh samaae ||2||
Drinking it in, one becomes honorable, absorbed in the Perfect Word of the Shabad. ||2||



ਪੂਰੈ ਭਾਗਿ ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਜਾ ਭਾਗੈ ਕਾ ਉਦਉ ਹੋਇ ॥
poorai bhaag sathagur milai jaa bhaagai kaa oudho hoe ||
By perfect good fortune, one meets the True Guru, when one's destiny is awakened.
ਅੰਤਰਹੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਕਟੀਐ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥
antharahu dhukh bhram katteeai sukh paraapath hoe ||
Suffering and doubt are cut out from within, and peace is obtained.
ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਭਾਣੈ ਜੋ ਚਲੈ ਦੁਖੁ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ਕੋਇ ॥੩॥
gur kai bhaanai jo chalai dhukh n paavai koe ||3||
One who walks in harmony with the Guru's Will shall not suffer in pain. ||3||


ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਜਾਗੁ ਹਰਿ ਚੇਤਿ ॥
man maerae anadhin jaag har chaeth ||
O my mind, remain awake and aware night and day, and think of the Lord.
ਆਪਣੀ ਖੇਤੀ ਰਖਿ ਲੈ ਕੂੰਜ ਪੜੈਗੀ ਖੇਤਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
aapanee khaethee rakh lai koonj parraigee khaeth ||1|| rehaao ||
Protect your crops, or else the birds shall descend on your farm. ||1||Pause||
ਮਨ ਕੀਆ ਇਛਾ ਪੂਰੀਆ ਸਬਦਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥
man keeaa eishhaa pooreeaa sabadh rehiaa bharapoor ||
The desires of the mind are fulfilled, when one is filled to overflowing with the Shabad.
ਭੈ ਭਾਇ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤੀ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਵੇਖੈ ਸਦਾ ਹਦੂਰਿ ॥
bhai bhaae bhagath karehi dhin raathee har jeeo vaekhai sadhaa hadhoor ||
One who fears, loves, and is devoted to the Dear Lord day and night, sees Him always close at hand.
ਸਚੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਦਾ ਮਨੁ ਰਾਤਾ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਗਇਆ ਸਰੀਰਹੁ ਦੂਰਿ ॥
sachai sabadh sadhaa man raathaa bhram gaeiaa sareerahu dhoor ||
Doubt runs far away from the bodies of those, whose minds remain forever attuned to the True Word of the Shabad.
ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਸਾਚਾ ਗੁਣੀ ਗਹੀਰੁ ॥੨॥
niramal saahib paaeiaa saachaa gunee geheer ||2||
The Immaculate Lord and Master is found. He is True; He is the Ocean of Excellence. ||2||


Good Luck Veer

 

[Astroboy]

One who walks in harmony with the Guru's Will shall not suffer in pain.

Honey22 Ji,

What is the Guru's Will ? I am too much in pain because whatever I do, there is always an element of dissatisfaction, unfulfillment and too much dependency on my feel-senses.

 

[Honey22]

namjap Ji, Gurbani/Guru is the true source to know Guru's Will.

Humbly putting in words with Guru's Grace: Human Life is gifted to learn to live in obedience to God's/Guru's Will. His Will is- all that is happening every milisecond- nothing is/was/can happen without His Will. Surrender to Him every moment/every breath. We feel pain(dukh) when we are running after comforts(sukh). But Guru Ji teaches us to treat both dukh and sukh in the same manner, for which we need to develop a nuteral mind(mind that is at peace under all circumstances). I believe and have experienced that more than Nine-tenths of the difficulties are over come when our hearts are ready to do/live the Guru's/God's will, whatever it may be. Hearts are pierced by Gurbani(Word of God) namjap Ji(you may be listening to your Guru if from another faith/religion), there is no other way out. I hope my words will not hurt you, if they do-please accept my apologies. Living this human life, performing duties of family life, performing duties of religious life, surrender to Him every moment, Consistently thinking of Gurbani/Guru/God in mind-is Sikh Way of Life.

Gurbani Gavo Bhaee

 

[Astroboy]

Honey22 Ji,

Living this human life, performing duties of family life, performing duties of religious life, surrender to Him every moment, Consistently thinking of Gurbani/Guru/God in mind-is Sikh Way of Life.

I find it very difficult to figure things out in this very confused state. How do I start ? Can you explain in baby-steps ?

 

[Honey22]

Namjap Ji,

There are thousands of baby steps you have mentioned yourself in many of your posts. To remind you a few are being represented:

ਆਦੇਸੁ ਤਿਸੈ ਆਦੇਸੁ ॥

आदेसु तिसै आदेसु ॥
Āḏės ṯisai āḏės.
I bow to Him, I humbly bow.
Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


ਓਇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਆਗੈ ਨਾ ਨਿਵਹਿ ਓਨਾ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਬਲਾਇ ॥੩॥
ओइ सतिगुर आगै ना निवहि ओना अंतरि क्रोधु बलाइ ॥३॥
O­ė saṯgur āgai nā niveh onā anṯar kroḏẖ balā­ė. ||3||
They do not bow before the True Guru; the demon of anger is within them. ||3||
Guru Ram Das - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]


ਖਾਲਕ ਕਉ ਆਦੇਸੁ ਢਾਢੀ ਗਾਵਣਾ ॥
खालक कउ आदेसु ढाढी गावणा ॥
Kẖālak ka­o āḏės dẖādẖī gāvṇā.
I humbly bow to the Creator Lord; I am a minstrel singing His Praises.
Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]

Namjap Ji,
Humbly suggesting: Please Follow/Practice It Yourself As Well whatever you are sharing with others. Gurbani is full of baby steps, if we put our trust in it. I hope my words are not hurting your feelings in any manner- if they are please accept my apologies.

 

[Astroboy]

Thank you Jee.

 

[pk70]

Sikh80 jio
Your question about Guru, Satguru is very genuine. In Guru Granth Sahib ji, Guru and Satguru are used for both, the Creator and His medium. You have to look the context of its use; idea will be clear” me apna gur poosh dekhyaa”(M-1), Guru Nanak ji is addressing the Creator as Guru, who literally is Guru and through a medium His guidance is passed on. Here in the following Guru Vaak, medium is addressed as only way out
ibnu siqgur iknY n pwieE, ibnu siqgur iknY n pwieAw ]
Without the True Guru, no one has obtained the Lord; without the True Guru, no one has obtained the Lord

Please note it down, here the word is Satguru, stress is on true Guru, there can be many out there claiming to be Guru but Guru ji gives stress that only through TRUE GURU , He is realized. In the following Guru Vaak, True Guru is only referred as Guru, in here Lord is mentioned as NAAM and “apaar” word is not used for The Infinite but for infinite love(het)
nwnk nwmu smwil qU gur kY hyiq Apwir ]5]20]53] (34-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
O Nanak, immerse yourself in the Naam, through the Infinite Love of the Guru.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
In the following Guru Vaak, see the Word Satguru( sihari means Satguru ne), it is for medium, who has found/realized Hari Prabh( Lord), then, praise of medium, Guru, goes on. Since He has realized Him, no one is equal to Guru.
siqguir hir pRBu buiJAw gur jyvfu Avru n koie ] (39-18, isrIrwgu, mÚ 4)
The True Guru understands the Lord God. There is no other as Great as the Guru.
Why? Answer” ਹਉ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਿਟਹੁ ਵਾਰਿਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਦੀਆ ਦਿਖਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ I am a sacrifice to the True Guru, who has shown me the Lord God. ||1||Pause||
When your quoted above Guru Vaak was revealed to Guru, there was no Guru Granth Sahib ji, so do not translate that word as Guru Granth Sahib ji. Still it is a praise of Guru, the medium. Now, coming back to Guru Granth Sahib ji; today for true Sikhs, eternal Guru is Guru Granth Sahib Ji; obviously, the meaning makes sense that no other can be equal to Guru Granth Sahib ji as a medium to the Lord. Bani is Nirankaar because it is all about Him, it is His “nisaan” Through Guru Granth Sahib ji, Sikhs understand and know the Lord. Guru is also honored as Jahaaj/bohath, ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਬੋਹਿਥੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਵ ਹੈ ਕਿਤੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਚੜਿਆ ਜਾਇ ॥
सतिगुरु बोहिथु हरि नाव है कितु बिधि चड़िआ जाइ ॥
Saṯgur bohith har nāv hai kiṯ biḏẖ cẖaṛi*ā jā*ė.
The Boat of the True Guru is the Name of the Lord. How can we climb on board? ) that clarifies Guru’s being medium to Him
(Quote Sikh 80)
[/FONT]DMnu vfBwgI vf BwgIAw jo Awie imly gur pwis ]2] (40-7, isrIrwgu, mÚ 4)
[/FONT] Blessed, and most fortunate of the very fortunate, are those who come to meet the Guru.

Question-3[/FONT]
[/FONT]Who is referred to as guru in the above. ?[/FONT]
Guru, who dispels illusions, darkness, veil of falsehood, clearly is His medium[/FONT]. So who meet the medium Guru are lucky since they are destined to walk on Guru path to realize HIM. Remember Guru ji also gives stress on His grace as well; that is another Hint that Guru ship is initiated from The Lord ([/FONT]siqgur ivic Awpu riKEnu, kir prgtu AwiK suxwieAw ]
He has placed Himself within the True Guru[/FONT][/FONT]. So there should be no confusion about Guru, Satguru, or perfect Guru, we need to understand it accurately in the context it is used; now I am going to answer your questions one by one[/FONT]
(quote[/FONT])[/FONT]
A
ibnu siqgur iknY n pwieE, ibnu siqgur iknY n pwieAw ]
Without the True Guru, no one has obtained the Lord; without the True Guru, no one has obtained the Lord.

Question-1 [/FONT]
Is Satguru here the Lord or the Granth sahib?
By default I would place it as Granth sahib.[/FONT]
Yes, doubtless, today Sikhs medium pf Him is guru granth sahib Ji


nwnk nwmu smwil qU gur kY hyiq Apwir ]5]20]53] (34-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
O Nanak, immerse yourself in the Naam, through the Infinite Love of the Guru.[/FONT]

Question -2[/FONT]

In the above line I shall prefer to place the meaning of Guru as the Lord HIMSELF[/FONT]
NO[/FONT]
or is there any possibility of making it look like Granth sahib.?[/FONT]
There is no question about it, it is about Guru, the Granth sahib ji/also known as Guru shabad; but remember, Guru cannot be limited to physical aspect only[/FONT].[/FONT]
[/FONT]
B.
[/FONT]siqguir hir pRBu buiJAw gur jyvfu Avru n koie ] (39-18, isrIrwgu, mÚ 4)
[/FONT]The True Guru understands the Lord God. There is no other as Great as the Guru.

If Satguru is Sabad guru and translation is correct, the meaning of 'true guru understands the Lord' shall have to be translated slightly in a different manner
[/FONT] or will it mean literally that 'Granth sahib' understands the Lord God'. Seemingly I am not able to reconcile.[/FONT]
Do not use this clause “ Granth Sahib understands the Lord” Gurbani in Guru Granth Sahib ji dispels all darkness and tears down the wall of falsehood if it is understood and practiced right; Guru Granth Sahib ji is live display of Guru and enlightened ones experience of the Lord. Many people miss the meaning of Guru Seva, it is not only a physical acts in align to a special service but to live Guru Teachings. For example, if Sikhs strictly start living Guru Teachings of Guru Granth sahib ji, it means they are doing real Guru Seva; if they just do” matha take, do chaur” and live” mannmatt” lives, there is no Guru Seva, simply they are dreaming a foolish dream. Sikh must understand what is meant[/FONT] by Guru Seva and Guru Granth Sahib ji as Guru

Similarly the next line 'there is no other Great as guru ' shall also mean that there is no one as great Granth sahib . It should ,however, mean that No one is as great as Lord.[/FONT]
This statement is very contradictory, rephrase it.[/FONT] Guru Granth Sahib is not Lord but medium of Lord. When it is said there is no equal to Guru, stress is on Guru’s only true way out as compared to other false claimers. There is no comparison of Guru and the Lord is sited here. So true Guru leads us to Him, so does Guru Granth Sahib ji[/FONT]
ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਲੋਚਦੇ ਸੋ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਦੀਆ ਬੁਝਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥
The angelic beings and the silent sages long for Him; the True Guru has given me this understanding. ||4||
ਏਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਹੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਦੀਆ ਬੁਝਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੫॥
The One Name is the Lord's Command; O Nanak, the True Guru has given me this understanding. ||5| (M-1)
HERE IS A DIRECT DEFINITION BY GURU JI IN THIS REGARD:
ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਐਸਾ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਜੋ ਸਭਸੈ ਲਏ ਮਿਲਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੧੦॥
O Nanak, know Him as the True Guru, who unites all with the Lord. ||10||M-1 Guru Granth Sahib does this all if followed and lived with high gravity of sincerity
Now back to the first question, in the following Guru vaak, Guru and Satguru are used for the medium( Guru/Satguru)
ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਲਿ ਦਿਖਾਲਿਆ ਹਉ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਿਟਹੁ ਸਦ ਵਾਰਿਆ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥
The Perfect Guru has shown me that the Lord is always with me. I am forever a sacrifice to the True Guru. ||2|| M-4
[/FONT]

 

[Sikh80]

Respected Pk70 ji,

Very many thanks for the pains that you have taken to answer, almost, step by step, the queries that were raised in the post-1. I am indeed grateful for the guidance that would be useful in future as well.

You have pointed out that these terms appear on account of the fact that Sabad Guru was compiled after the bani had been uttered. I have noted this and it may be the cause of not understanding the things in correct perspective. I shall take care of this in future.

Warm Regards

 

[Honey22]

Question -2

In the above line I shall prefer to place the meaning of Guru as the Lord HIMSELF[/FONT]
NO[/FONT]

PK70 Ji, Why not Lord?



http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/666-guru-granth-sahib-history-arrangements-text.html

Guru Granth Sahib is not Lord but medium of Lord.

PK70 Ji,
Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Ji says:

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਰਾਖਿਓ ਗੁਰਿ ਸਰਨਾ ॥
kar kirapaa raakhiou gur saranaa ||
In His Mercy, the Guru has kept me under His protection.
ਗੁਰਿ ਪਕਰਾਏ ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਚਰਨਾ ॥
gur pakaraaeae har kae charanaa ||
The Guru has attached me to the Lord's Feet.
ਬੀਸ ਬਿਸੁਏ ਜਾ ਮਨ ਠਹਰਾਨੇ ॥
bees bisueae jaa man theharaanae ||
When the mind is totally held in check,
ਗੁਰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਏਕੈ ਹੀ ਜਾਨੇ ॥੨॥
gur paarabreham eaekai hee jaanae ||2||
one sees the Guru and the Supreme Lord God as one and the same. ||2||

Only after coming under Guru's Protection one can see that there is no difference between Guru and God. Guru shows this Truth Himself to His Sevak. And Guru Granth Sahib Ji Claims it several times. PK 70 Ji, As Sikh only listen to Guru Granth Sahib Ji, whose claim one should adhere to.

How can you say Guru is not Lord, based on Guru Granth Sahib Ji's Teachings, and while explaining Gurbani to someone? It can only be your personal experience. Because Guru Ji is telling there is no distinction whatsoever PK70 Ji.

Guru Ji tells:
ਚਉਥੈ ਪਹਰੈ ਰੈਣਿ ਕੈ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਚਲਣ ਵੇਲਾ ਆਦੀ ॥
chouthhai peharai rain kai vanajaariaa mithraa har chalan vaelaa aadhee ||
In the fourth watch of the night, O my merchant friend, the Lord announces the time of departure.
ਕਰਿ ਸੇਵਹੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਸਭ ਚਲੀ ਰੈਣਿ ਵਿਹਾਦੀ ॥
kar saevahu pooraa sathiguroo vanajaariaa mithraa sabh chalee rain vihaadhee ||
Serve the Perfect True Guru, O my merchant friend; your entire life-night is passing away.
ਹਰਿ ਸੇਵਹੁ ਖਿਨੁ ਖਿਨੁ ਢਿਲ ਮੂਲਿ ਨ ਕਰਿਹੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਅਸਥਿਰੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਹੋਵਹੁ ॥
har saevahu khin khin dtil mool n karihu jith asathhir jug jug hovahu ||
Serve the Lord each and every instant-do not delay! You shall become eternal throughout the ages.
ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਸਦ ਮਾਣਹੁ ਰਲੀਆ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਦੁਖ ਖੋਵਹੁ ॥
har saethee sadh maanahu raleeaa janam maran dhukh khovahu ||
Enjoy ecstasy forever with the Lord, and do away with the pains of birth and death.
ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਸੁਖਾਂਦੀ ॥
gur sathigur suaamee bhaedh n jaanahu jith mil har bhagath sukhaandhee ||
Know that there is no difference between the Guru, the True Guru, and your Lord and Master. Meeting with Him, take pleasure in the Lord's devotional service.
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਚਉਥੈ ਪਹਰੈ ਸਫਲਿਓ*ੁ ਰੈਣਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਦੀ ॥੪॥੧॥੩॥
kahu naanak praanee chouthhai peharai safalio rain bhagathaa dhee ||4||1||3||
Says Nanak, O mortal, in the fourth watch of the night, the life-night of the devotee is fruitful. ||4||1||3||

ਰਾਮ ਸੰਤ ਮਹਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਏਕੁ ਜਨੁ ਕਈ ਮਹਿ ਲਾਖ ਕਰੋਰੀ ॥
raam santh mehi bhaedh kishh naahee eaek jan kee mehi laakh karoree ||
Between the Lord and His Saint, there is no difference at all. Among hundreds of thousands and millions, there is scarcely one humble being.







ਜਬ ਇਨਿ ਅਪੁਨੋ ਬਾਧਿਓ ਮੋਹਾ ॥
jab ein apuno baadhhiou mohaa ||
When he entangles himself in emotional attachment,
ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ ਸਦਾ ਜਮਿ ਜੋਹਾ ॥
aavai jaae sadhaa jam johaa ||
he comes and goes in reincarnation, under the constant gaze of Death.
ਜਬ ਇਸ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਬਿਨਸੇ ਭਰਮਾ ॥
jab eis thae sabh binasae bharamaa ||
But when all his doubts are removed,
ਭੇਦੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਹੈ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ॥੪॥
bhaedh naahee hai paarabrehamaa ||4||
then there is no difference between him and the Supreme Lord God. ||4||




ਰਤਨਾ ਰਤਨ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਬਹੁ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਭਰਿਆ ਰਾਮ ॥
rathanaa rathan padhaarathh bahu saagar bhariaa raam ||
The great ocean is full of the treasures of jewels upon jewels.
ਬਾਣੀ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਲਾਗੇ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਹਥਿ ਚੜਿਆ ਰਾਮ ॥
baanee gurabaanee laagae thinh hathh charriaa raam ||
Those who are committed to the Word of the Guru's Bani, see them come into their hands.
ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਲਾਗੇ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਹਥਿ ਚੜਿਆ ਨਿਰਮੋਲਕੁ ਰਤਨੁ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥
gurabaanee laagae thinh hathh charriaa niramolak rathan apaaraa ||
This priceless, incomparable jewel comes into the hands of those who are committed to the Word of the Guru's Bani.
ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਤੋਲਕੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਤੇਰੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਭਰੇ ਭੰਡਾਰਾ ॥
har har naam atholak paaeiaa thaeree bhagath bharae bhanddaaraa ||
They obtain the immeasurable Name of the Lord, Har, Har; their treasure is overflowing with devotional worship.
ਸਮੁੰਦੁ ਵਿਰੋਲਿ ਸਰੀਰੁ ਹਮ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਇਕ ਵਸਤੁ ਅਨੂਪ ਦਿਖਾਈ ॥
samundh virol sareer ham dhaekhiaa eik vasath anoop dhikhaaee ||
I have churned the ocean of the body, and I have seen the incomparable thing come into view.
ਗੁਰ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਗ+ਵਿੰਦੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਭਾਈ ॥੪॥੧॥੮॥
gur govindh guovindh guroo hai naanak bhaedh n bhaaee ||4||1||8||
The Guru is God, and God is the Guru, O Nanak; there is no difference between the two, O Siblings of Destiny. ||4||1||8||




ਬਡੇ ਭਾਗ ਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਹਿ ਅਪੁਨਾ ਭੇਦੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਮੁਰਾਰ ॥
baddae bhaag gur saevehi apunaa bhaedh naahee guradhaev muraar ||
The most fortunate ones serve their Guru; there is no difference between the Divine Guru and the Lord.
ਤਾ ਕਉ ਕਾਲੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਜਮੁ ਜੋਹੈ ਬੂਝਹਿ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥੭॥
thaa ko kaal naahee jam johai boojhehi anthar sabadh beechaar ||7||
The Messenger of Death cannot see those who come to realize within their minds the contemplative meditation of the Word of the Shabad. ||7||




ਜਿਨਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਉ ਨ ਬਿਆਪੈ ॥
jin gur saeviaa this bho n biaapai ||
One who serves the Guru is not afflicted with fear.
ਜਿਨਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਤਿਸੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਨ ਸੰਤਾਪੈ ॥
jin gur saeviaa this dhukh n santhaapai ||
One who serves the Guru does not suffer in pain.
ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋਧੇ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੇਦ ॥
naanak sodhhae sinmrith baedh ||
Nanak has studied the Simritees and the Vedas.
ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਹੀ ਭੇਦ ॥੪॥੧੧॥੨੪॥
paarabreham gur naahee bhaedh ||4||11||24||
There is no difference between the Supreme Lord God and the Guru. ||4||11||24||





ਜਗ ਅਉਰੁ ਨ ਯਾਹਿ ਮਹਾ ਤਮ ਮੈ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਉਜਾਗਰੁ ਆਨਿ ਕੀਅਉ ॥
jag aour n yaahi mehaa tham mai avathaar oujaagar aan keeao ||
In the great darkness of this world, the Lord revealed Himself, incarnated as Guru Arjun.
ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਦੁਖ ਕੋਟਿਕ ਦੂਰਿ ਗਏ ਮਥੁਰਾ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਪੀਅਉ ॥
thin kae dhukh kottik dhoor geae mathhuraa jinh anmrith naam peeao ||
Millions of pains are taken away, from those who drink in the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam, says Mat'huraa.
ਇਹ ਪਧਤਿ ਤੇ ਮਤ ਚੂਕਹਿ ਰੇ ਮਨ ਭੇਦੁ ਬਿਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਨ ਬੀਅਉ ॥
eih padhhath thae math chookehi rae man bhaedh bibhaedh n jaan beeao ||
O mortal being, do not leave this path; do not think that there is any difference between God and Guru.
ਪਰਤਛਿ ਰਿਦੈ ਗੁਰ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਕੈ ਹਰਿ ਪੂਰਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਿ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਲੀਅਉ ॥੫॥
parathashh ridhai gur arajun kai har pooran breham nivaas leeao ||5||
The Perfect Lord God has manifested Himself; He dwells in the heart of Guru Arjun. ||5||


And there are much more Gurbani that points out that THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE- SANT GURU LORD GOD all is one and the same. And this also indicated very clearly that any body with doubts in their minds about Guru Ji can make these distinctions not the true sevaks. He shows Himself to the sevaks that there is NO DISTINCTION WHATSOEVER.

PK70 Ji, I hope my words are not hurting your feelings in any manner- if they are please accept my apologies. Distinction between God and Guru is only there when you are looking at Guru with manmat/doubts/falsehood. Clear your heart, let it get pierced with Gurbani- Waheguru Bless You PK70 Ji