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Who is closest to God?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by divine outpouring, Mar 12, 2010.

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  1. divine outpouring

    divine outpouring
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    hi everyone, i have a question which i hope you'll find interesting. before i pose it, i would like to say a couple of things.

    i have been on these forums before under different names. i was on here once as 'a muslim' and later as something else (can't remember the name i used then). as 'a muslim' i felt a great warmth from the spn community and a real effort to answer my queries for the sake of greater understanding. as the other name i was accused of being someone else (as i used someone elses computer, who also happened to be a member) who took an approach to questioning which the community didn't respond to as well. i was kicked off the forums even though i personally did not cause offence, and now i am back as i have more questions which i hope you will answer in the same spirit as you answered 'a muslim'. i wanted to clear that up in case the moderators thought i was an ill doer whose only purpose was to come here and cause chaos.

    i really wish we can put all of that behind us as it affected my path to understanding sikhism. True, i am a muslim, and true, i haven't seen anything in sikhism that would make me want to convert; but true, if i perceived it as the best way to God i would convert, and true, even if i didn't, i have grown up alongside sikhs and feel a strong desire to learn their religion for the sake of increasing my understanding of that which they hold most dear. understandably, my sikh friends do not have amongst them the knowledge of religion which this community affords, so i consider it beneficial for me to be here.

    with that cleared, i would like to ask:

    Who do sikhs believe is the one whom God loves the most, or the one who God has favoured the most, or the one who best followed God's commands, or the one who was in closest union with God?

    and

    what criteria do sikhs use to determine the answer to the aforementioned question?

    the same question applies if sikhs believe more than one person to be closest to God.

    as a side note, i think this forum is really well structured. whoever made it has done it well! apologies if my questions could have been in a more appropriate section

    looking forward to reading your replies!
    thanks :happy:
     
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  3. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    divine outpouring,

    Guru Fateh.

    First of all, let me thank you for turning towards honesty as a Muslim unlike before. Truthful living is the cornerstone of Sikhi. By living in a truthful manner one can seek the truth.

    You write:

    Pardon my ignorance but your question makes God or whatever you may call him/her/it a person with human traits. Please elaborate what God is for you. Secondly according to your question, it seems that the God you serve has some favourite people and others not so favourite. Does your God take sides and is biased?


    My earlier questions need to be answered by you so we can continue this interesting interaction.

    Thanks and hope for the clarifications.

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  4. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    divine outpouring ji

    This is not my reply to your questions regarding religion, but only an admin note. Multiple identities are a violation of Terms of Service. SPN reserves the right to ban anyone using multiple identities without notice and without giving reasons. However admin and mentors are always lenient when they apply this rule. It is unlikely you as "a muslim" or in your "other identity" were banned (kicked off) because of your beliefs. The following scenario is more to the point.

    Once a multiple identity is discovered, the integrity of a member suffers. Who are you really, one asks? If you are untruthful in one guise, can you be truthful in the other? Which identity is the one to believe? Or, can any be believed? Couple an uncertainty about truthfulness with a tendency of one of two identities/members to taunt other members and question their intelligence and religious sincerity. The combination is toxic, and no forum can permit it to go on indefinitely. That is the reflection in the mirror that I hold up to you.

    Now like you I hope to put this behind us and to discuss a profound question in a way that allow us to learn from one another.
     
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  5. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    So divine outpouring ji

    Your starter thread has the title, Who is closest to God? The title assumes that there can be a close, closer and closest relationship with God. And one would infer there is conversely a far, ****her, ****hest vantage point as well. And you also seem to be understanding love in terms of closeness to God and closeness in terms of love. Because you ask...

    Who does God love the most? What criteria do Sikhs use to determine the answer to the first question?

    There are no criteria. I say that without apology. Criteria are not needed. All of creation is simply close. In Shabad Hazure, Guru Arjan Dev ji tells us that God too near to be far.

    In another shabad, we have glimpse into His indivisible, complete and total connection to us and all of creation.

    <table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tbody><tr><td class="rmenuheader">
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਸੋਰਠਿ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ਘਰੁ ੧
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">sorath mehalaa 4 ghar 1
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">Sorat'h, Fourth Mehl, First House:
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">ik oankaar sathigur prasaadh ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਅਪਾਹੁ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">aapae aap varathadhaa piaaraa aapae aap apaahu ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">My Beloved Lord Himself pervades and permeates all; He Himself is, all by Himself.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਵਣਜਾਰਾ ਜਗੁ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹੁ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">vanajaaraa jag aap hai piaaraa aapae saachaa saahu ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">My Beloved Himself is the trader in this world; He Himself is the true banker.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਆਪੇ ਵਣਜੁ ਵਾਪਾਰੀਆ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਸਚੁ ਵੇਸਾਹੁ ॥੧॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">aapae vanaj vaapaareeaa piaaraa aapae sach vaesaahu ||1||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">My Beloved Himself is the trade and the trader; He Himself is the true credit. ||1||
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਜਪਿ ਮਨ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਲਾਹ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">jap man har har naam salaah ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">O mind, meditate on the Lord, Har, Har, and praise His Name.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਅਗਮ ਅਥਾਹ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">gur kirapaa thae paaeeai piaaraa anmrith agam athhaah || rehaao ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">By Guru's Grace, the Beloved, Ambrosial, unapproachable and unfathomable Lord is obtained. ||Pause||
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਆਪੇ ਸੁਣਿ ਸਭ ਵੇਖਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਮੁਖਿ ਬੋਲੇ ਆਪਿ ਮੁਹਾਹੁ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">aapae sun sabh vaekhadhaa piaaraa mukh bolae aap muhaahu ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">The Beloved Himself sees and hears everything; He Himself speaks through the mouths of all beings.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਆਪੇ ਉਝੜਿ ਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪਿ ਵਿਖਾਲੇ ਰਾਹੁ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">aapae oujharr paaeidhaa piaaraa aap vikhaalae raahu ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">The Beloved Himself leads us into the wilderness, and He Himself shows us the Way.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਸਭੁ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ॥੨॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">aapae hee sabh aap hai piaaraa aapae vaeparavaahu ||2||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">The Beloved Himself is Himself all-in-all; He Himself is carefree. ||2||
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਸਿਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਧੰਧੜੈ ਲਾਹੁ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">aapae aap oupaaeidhaa piaaraa sir aapae dhhandhharrai laahu ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">The Beloved Himself, all by Himself, created everything; He Himself links all to their tasks.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਆਪਿ ਕਰਾਏ ਸਾਖਤੀ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪਿ ਮਾਰੇ ਮਰਿ ਜਾਹੁ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">aap karaaeae saakhathee piaaraa aap maarae mar jaahu ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">The Beloved Himself creates the Creation, and He Himself destroys it.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਆਪੇ ਪਤਣੁ ਪਾਤਣੀ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਪਾਰਿ ਲੰਘਾਹੁ ॥੩॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">aapae pathan paathanee piaaraa aapae paar langhaahu ||3||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">He Himself is the wharf, and He Himself is the ferryman, who ferries us across. ||3||
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਆਪੇ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਬੋਹਿਥਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਖੇਵਟੁ ਆਪਿ ਚਲਾਹੁ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">aapae saagar bohithhaa piaaraa gur khaevatt aap chalaahu ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">The Beloved Himself is the ocean, and the boat; He Himself is the Guru, the boatman who steers it
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਚੜਿ ਲੰਘਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਚੋਜ ਵੇਖੈ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">aapae hee charr langhadhaa piaaraa kar choj vaekhai paathisaahu ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">. The Beloved Himself sets sail and crosses over; He, the King, beholds His wondrous play.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਖਸਿ ਮਿਲਾਹੁ ॥੪॥੧॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">aapae aap dhaeiaal hai piaaraa jan naanak bakhas milaahu ||4||1||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">The Beloved Himself is the Merciful Master; O servant Nanak, He forgives and blends with Himself. ||4||1||</td></tr></tbody></table>

    One can take this Shabad very seriously and take note that in nearly every line we are told that He pervades and permeates all of his Creation, and He is in and of Himself all of His Creation. He is the thread that links everything to everything. He speaks through all. There is no separation.

    And so we read these wonderful metaphors: He is both the trade and the trader, the credit and the banker. These images tell us He is both the act and the doer of the act.

    Other wonderful metaphors tell us that He cannot be separated from His Creation. As the wharf cannot be separated from the ferryman. He is both. The ocean cannot be separated from the boat. He is both.

    And more metaphors tell us that He has never been separated from us. He exposes us to the wilderness (our self-created sense of being lost in an untamed place) but He guides us through it. He blends us to himself.

    I am just touching on some things that stand out for me. But here is the curious line.
    <table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਅਗਮ ਅਥਾਹ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">gur kirapaa thae paaeeai piaaraa anmrith agam athhaah || rehaao ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">By Guru's Grace, the Beloved, Ambrosial, unapproachable and unfathomable Lord is obtained. ||Pause||
    </td></tr></tbody></table>
    He cannot be approached and he cannot be fathomed. Still he is the same God who blends everyone to Himself. How can that be so? The verse tell us that what is only an apparent contradiction is resolved by His Grace. These metaphors of complete and total connection found in this shabad are developed throughout all of raag Soraath. We are the ones who create our distance from God. The idea of close, closer, closest is our idea, not His.

    <table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਤੂ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਵਸਹਿ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤੀ ਤੇਰਾ ਭਾਉ ਨ ਬੁਝਹਿ ਗਵਾਰੀ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">thoo hiradhai gupath vasehi dhin raathee thaeraa bhaao n bujhehi gavaaree ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">You dwell, hidden, within my heart day and night, Lord; but the poor fools do not understand Your Love.</td></tr></tbody></table>.
     
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  6. divine outpouring

    divine outpouring
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    >>Pardon my ignorance but your question makes God or whatever you may call him/her/it a person with human traits. Please elaborate what God is for you. Secondly according to your question, it seems that the God you serve has some favourite people and others not so favourite. Does your God take sides and is biased?<<

    I stated the question from 4 different perspectives so that amongst them you may find what I was trying to say. Let’s put it this way, God ‘raises’ and God ‘abases’. For example, in sikh understanding one may be reincarnated in a ‘raised’ state or ‘abased’ state depending on their current life. You can't take everything literally when speaking of God. So who has God ‘raised’ the most? And how did you reach that decision?

    If you want me to elaborate on my personal beliefs regarding God please start another thread. I will be happy to answer you there. I don’t think my personal beliefs have any bearing on this discussion – I want to know what Sikhs believe. When I use the word God take it with the Sikh definition.

    >>Your starter thread has the title, Who is closest to God? The title assumes that there can be a close, closer and closest relationship with God. And one would infer there is conversely a far, ****her, ****hest vantage point as well. And you also seem to be understanding love in terms of closeness to God and closeness in terms of love.
    There are no criteria. I say that without apology. Criteria are not needed. All of creation is simply close. In Shabad Hazure, Guru Arjan Dev ji tells us that God too near to be far.<<

    In reality God has no material place and therefore no distance. What I’m asking about here is the human perspective. For example, why do you go to the gurus for guidance and not to an atheist, when “All of creation is simply close”. From our point of view there is obviously a difference.
    When I asked a sikh friend I was told, “the ten gurus”. When I asked how that decision was reached I was not given an answer. That’s why I am here. Hope you understand the question the question now.
    :backtotopic:
     
  7. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Divine pouring ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    You write:

    Where did you get the above from about Sikhi? Can you quote the Shabads from SGGS, our only Guru to prove your point because SGGS is our only reference, hence our only Guru.

    Everything is part of the discussion and interaction. Only by talking about each other's beliefs, we can create some kind of understanding, For me to respond from a Sikhi view point, I have to understand where you are coming from and your viewpoint about the entity/god you serve.

    One does not have to start a new thread to talk about what you are asking here because I would like to know the same thing from you about your own faith.

    Once again, let me ask you again, is the God you serve biased? According to initial questions, it seems that he/she/it is. Can you please elaborate it?

    Thanks

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  8. divine outpouring

    divine outpouring
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    >>>Where did you get the above from about Sikhi? Can you quote the Shabads from SGGS, our only Guru to prove your point because SGGS is our only reference, hence our only Guru.<<<

    I got that knowledge from sikh friends. I’d say it’s pretty common knowledge. The type of knowledge that doesn’t demand proof at every mention. You say your name is Tejwant, I take your word for it. When the beeb show a documentary about space and represent the earth as round, I don’t write a letter of complaint asking them to prove the earth is round. It is in the corpus of common knowledge, as is the basic idea of reincarnation.

    >>>Everything is part of the discussion and interaction. Only by talking about each other's beliefs, we can create some kind of understanding, For me to respond from a Sikhi view point, I have to understand where you are coming from and your viewpoint about the entity/god you serve. <<<


    My question is about human understanding, to speak of God’s attributes here is not warranted. From the ‘point of view’ of God I think Narayanjot’s answer was comprehensive. There is no distance.
    Put it this way, you meet a person, you think, “gee, he’s a really good person”. What I’m asking is, how do you differentiate between good and bad people, or good and better people? What signs do you (Sikhs) look for? And to continue the thread, who is the best person? How did you reach that conclusion?

    Hope that helps
     
  9. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Divine Pouring ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    If I told you that some Muslim friends told me that Islam discriminates against women, represses other religions, even beheads some Sikhs, which they did to the Sikhs, when they are trying to forcefully convert them into Islam, what would be your answer to that?

    Thanks

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  10. divine outpouring

    divine outpouring
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    If I told you that some Muslim friends told me that Islam discriminates against women, represses other religions, even beheads some Sikhs, which they did to the Sikhs, when they are trying to forcefully convert them into Islam, what would be your answer to that?

    wow, now we've really drifted from the initial question. Seriously this is getting low, if you don't want to answer the question don't post a reply. Narayanjot, if you're reading this then i'd like to thank you for replying in a more serious manner, although i don't think you quite understood the question, however after reading your reply i can understand that my initial post could have been clearer.

    i'm genuinely looking for a serious discussion. Narayanjot (or anyone else who is can provide insight), i would appreciate it if you could answer the following question as you seemed to be genuinely interested in providing an insight;

    who is the greatest person that ever lived? how did you reach that conclusion?

    thanks
     
  11. Sinister

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    my mother...and why...cause she had to raise me!

    asking a person; who is the greatest person that ever lived is like asking someone what their favourite colour is and then asking them to justify it. It is a type of question that will never reach a universal consensus but would simply project an individuals taste.

    why do you wish to ask something so personal?
     
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  12. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    divine outpouring ji

    Here is my problem with the discussion so far, and the reason why I do not plan to continue in it until this problem is resolved. The questions you have been posing post by post have drifted a long way from the original questions that began the thread. It is not that I am against meandering conversations per se. But rather I do not really want to play the puppet to your puppeteer strings. This has been my concern all along with threads like this, particularly as the pertain to problems that Muslims have with Sikhs. It simply is not worth it. It is not productive. and is waste of time. Either you want to read and reflect on what a few Sikhs have said here. Or you don't. I don't think you really want to do that -- read and reflect on what we have said.
     
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  13. divine outpouring

    divine outpouring
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    my mother...and why...cause she had to raise me!

    asking a person; who is the greatest person that ever lived is like asking someone what their favourite colour is and then asking them to justify it. It is a type of question that will never reach a universal consensus but would simply project an individual’s taste.



    I see where you’re coming from but I don’t quite agree. Comparing favourite colours is a much less fruitful activity as it doesn’t really help anyone on the path of guidance. It is quite a superficial thing to do. Also, there is little shared ground between colours, such that you can’t really say anything else except that they’re different. When comparing people it is much more apparent that there is shared ground, in that we can ask, “who was the most generous?” or, “who was the most courageous?”, and that this shared ground is useful in that it allows us to compare in an ordinal way.

    why do you wish to ask something so personal?

    I would like to know who Sikhs believe is the greatest person / people to have lived. I want to know the reasons for their personal decision, as I would like to use their standards to look at other figures and see why they are not considered greater than whoever they consider to be great. That’s it.

    Here is my problem with the discussion so far, and the reason why I do not plan to continue in it until this problem is resolved. The questions you have been posing post by post have drifted a long way from the original questions that began the thread.

    Let’s look at my questions.
    1) Who is closest to God?
    2) Who do sikhs believe is the one whom God loves the most?
    3) Who God has favoured the most?
    4) Who best followed God's commands?
    5) Who was in closest union with God?
    6) What criteria do sikhs use to determine the answer to the aforementioned question(s)?
    7) how do you differentiate between good and bad people, or good and better people?
    8) What signs do you (Sikhs) look for?
    9) Who is the best person?
    10) How did you reach that conclusion?
    11) Who is the greatest person that ever lived?
    I don’t see a contradiction in my questions, it is the same 2 questions rephrased again and again as no-one seemed to understand them first time round.
    This is a forum of people who adhere to a religion, of people who believe in one God. so when I asked ‘who is closest to God?’ I assumed you would understand it to mean close in a metaphorical sense, the closest one being the person who best realised God. Such a person would be one whom God ‘loves’ – not human love, love here meaning attaining to God’s ‘pleasure’, such that he raises your state and one attains to God’s reward.

    Page 52, Line 16
    ਜਿਤੜੇ ਫਲ ਮਨਿ ਬਾਛੀਅਹਿ ਤਿਤੜੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪਾਸਿ ॥
    जितड़े फल मनि बाछीअहि तितड़े सतिगुर पासि ॥
    Jiṯ▫ṛe fal man bācẖẖī▫ah ṯiṯ▫ṛe saṯgur pās.
    All the rewards which the mind desires are with the True Guru.
    Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

    Page 95, Line 7
    ਮੇਰੀ ਸਰਧਾ ਪੂਰਿ ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਮਿਲਿ ਹਰਿ ਦਰਸਨਿ ਮਨੁ ਭੀਜੈ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥
    मेरी सरधा पूरि जगजीवन दाते मिलि हरि दरसनि मनु भीजै जीउ ॥१॥
    Merī sarḏẖā pūr jagjīvan ḏāṯe mil har ḏarsan man bẖījai jī▫o. ||1||
    Please reward my faith, O Life of the World, O Great Giver. Obtaining the Blessed Vision of the Lord's Darshan, my mind is fulfilled. ||1||
    Guru Ram Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

    Page 105, Line 16
    ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਸਾ ਤਿਸ ਤੇ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
    जिस का सा तिस ते फलु पाइआ ॥
    Jis kā sā ṯis ṯe fal pā▫i▫ā.
    We are His, and from Him, we receive our rewards.
    Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

    Page 105, Line 19
    ਸੁਣੀ ਬੇਨੰਤੀ ਠਾਕੁਰਿ ਮੇਰੈ ਪੂਰਨ ਹੋਈ ਘਾਲੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥
    सुणी बेनंती ठाकुरि मेरै पूरन होई घाली जीउ ॥२॥
    Suṇī benanṯī ṯẖākur merai pūran ho▫ī gẖālī jī▫o. ||2||
    My Lord and Master has heard my prayer; my efforts have been rewarded. ||2||
    Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

    Such a person would receive God’s ‘favour’, he wouldn’t deviate from God’s command, he would be in union with God. See how it all ties in? I was trying to ask the question in different ways so maybe you would understand one of the ways and use it as a doorway into the discourse. When that didn’t work, I tried a few other ways, for example ‘how do you differentiate between good and bad people, or good and better people?’, ‘who is the best person?’ etc.

    The second question pertains to the thought process as to how the answer to the first question was reached. It is the second question I am really interested in. What signs do Sikhs look for in people to indicate goodness?

    It is not that I am against meandering conversations per se. But rather I do not really want to play the puppet to your puppeteer strings. This has been my concern all along with threads like this, particularly as the pertain to problems that Muslims have with Sikhs. It simply is not worth it. It is not productive. and is waste of time. Either you want to read and reflect on what a few Sikhs have said here. Or you don't. I don't think you really want to do that -- read and reflect on what we have said.

    When you speak of being a puppet to my strings, use phrases like ‘threads like this’ and ‘problems muslims have with Sikhs’, it makes me think you have a pretty negative opinion of me. It presses me to conclude that you think I have some sort of hidden agenda, that you have been unhappy with your discourses with muslims in the past and do not want to repeat them. Almost like muslims have been playing some kind of game with you to defame your religion and you have caught onto it. Now, awake and wise you will not let them get any ground on you. You will spot their techniques from a mile off and counter them before they have chance to strike.

    I’m not playing any games.

    The danger with such an approach, if that is what you are doing, is that muslims who are genuinely looking to gain an understanding get tainted with the same brush, and their chances to learn are vastly reduced before they even open their mouth due to an underlying prejudice which has grown out of this antagonism. An antagonism guru Nanak disliked abhorrently.

    My ‘agenda’ here is to try and learn why you love your religious figures so much, what qualities abounded in them that rendered them special above the rest of mankind, such that you adhere to their teachings the most. It is an opportunity to tell someone why you love your gurus so much. What do you have to fear? I thought you would love to answer such a question.

    I don't think you really want to do that -- read and reflect on what we have said

    try me.
    now (i hope) that you understand the questions, let's have an honest, productive discourse.
     
  14. gur_meet

    gur_meet India
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    divine outpouring ji

    we love our Guru's because


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{page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} </style> <![endif]--> ਨਾਨਕਸਤਗੁਰੁਮੀਤੁਕਰਿਸਚੁਪਾਵਹਿਦਰਗਹਜਾਇ੪॥੨੦॥
    naanak sathagur meeth kar sach paavehi dharageh jaae ||4||20||
    Says Nanak, make the True Guru your loving friend; going to His Court, you shall obtain the True Lord. ||4||20||

    Sggs 22


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margin-bottom:10.0pt; margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} .MsoPapDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; margin-bottom:10.0pt; line-height:115%;} @page Section1 {size:595.3pt 841.9pt; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in; mso-header-margin:35.3pt; mso-footer-margin:35.3pt; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} </style> <![endif]--> ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਅੰਧੇਰਾ ਜਾਇ
    sathagur milai andhhaeraa jaae ||
    Meeting the True Guru, the darkness is dispelled
    ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ
    jeh dhaekhaa theh rehiaa samaae ||3||

    Wherever I look, there I see Him pervading. ||3||
    SGGS 876
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margin-bottom:10.0pt; margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} .MsoPapDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; margin-bottom:10.0pt; line-height:115%;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} </style> <![endif]--> ਜਿਨੀ ਪੁਰਖੀ ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਿਓ ਸੇ ਦੁਖੀਏ ਜੁਗ ਚਾਰਿ
    jinee purakhee sathagur n saeviou sae dhukheeeae jug chaar ||
    Those who do not serve the True Guru shall be miserable throughout the four ages.
    SGGS 34



    Our Satguru is ' Shabad Guru ' - the creator HIMSELF.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    #13 gur_meet, Mar 15, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 10, 2015
  15. kuldeepsb5

    kuldeepsb5
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    I shall be trying to answer your queries one by one ,step by step, and one answer daily. Answer to your first question is from Gurbani of Guru GObind Singh JI as under:-

    <table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਜਾਗਿਤ ਜੋਤਿ ਜਪੈ ਨਿਸ ਬਾਸੁਰ ਏਕ ਬਿਨਾ ਮਨ ਨੈਕ ਨ ਆਨੈ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">Jagit jot japai nis basur eaek bina man naik n anai ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">He the Khalsa meditates on the Ever-radiant Light, day and night, and rejects all else but the one Lord from the mind.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਪੂਰਨ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤ ਸਜੈ ਬ੍ਰਤ ਗੋਰ ਮੜ੍ਹੀ ਮਟ ਭੂਲ ਨ ਮਾਨੈ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">Pooran praem prateet sajai brat gor marrhee matt bhool na manai ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">He decorates himself with perfect love and faith, and believed not in fasts, tombs, crematoriums and hermit cells, even by mistake.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader"> </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਤੀਰਥ ਦਾਨ ਦਯਾ ਤਪ ਸੰਜਮ ਏਕ ਬਿਨਾ ਨਹਿ ਏਕ ਪਛਾਨੈ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">Teerathh dan daya tap sanjam eaek bina nehi eaek pachhanai ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">He knows none except the one Lord in the performance of acts of pilgrimage, charities, compassion, austerities and self-control.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">
    </td></tr></tbody></table><table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਪੂਰਨ ਜੋਤ ਜਗੈ ਘਟ ਮੈ ਤਬ ਖਾਲਸ ਤਾਹਿ ਨਖਾਲਸ ਜਾਨੈ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">Pooran jot jagai ghatt mai tab khalas tahi nakhalas janai ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">Such a man, in whose heart shines the full Divinely Radiant Light is a true a pure Khalsa.</td></tr></tbody></table> Dasam Paathshaah Guru Gobind Singh Shabad:
     
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  16. divine outpouring

    divine outpouring
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    thank you gur_meet and kuldeepsb5 for your earnest responses. it's great to see the discussion moving forwards instead of sideways for a change!

    ਨਾਨਕਸਤਗੁਰੁਮੀਤੁਕਰਿਸਚੁਪਾਵਹਿਦਰਗਹਜਾਇ॥੪॥੨੦॥


    naanak sathagur meeth kar sach paavehi dharageh jaae ||4||20||
    Says Nanak, make the True Guru your loving friend; going to His Court, you shall obtain the True Lord. ||4||20||
    Sggs 22


    ਸਤਗੁਰੁਮਿਲੈਅੰਧੇਰਾਜਾਇ॥
    sathagur milai andhhaeraa jaae ||
    Meeting the True Guru, the darkness is dispelled
    ਜਹਦੇਖਾਤਹਰਹਿਆਸਮਾਇ॥੩॥
    jeh dhaekhaa theh rehiaa samaae ||3||
    Wherever I look, there I see Him pervading. ||3||
    SGGS 876
    ਜਿਨੀਪੁਰਖੀਸਤਗੁਰੁਨਸੇਵਿਓਸੇਦੁਖੀਏਜੁਗਚਾਰਿ॥
    jinee purakhee sathagur n saeviou sae dhukheeeae jug chaar ||
    Those who do not serve the True Guru shall be miserable throughout the four ages.
    SGGS 34


    Our Satguru is ' Shabad Guru ' - the creator HIMSELF.


    Spiritual figures from all major religions have said similar things. What is it that set the Gurus apart from the rest? I am assuming Sikhs believe the Gurus to be the best of mankind. If that is not the case then please let me know.

    As a non-Sikh, i can't relate to your personal experiences and opinions. Are there any objective characteristics of the Gurus which Sikhs sing the praises of? For example, i have seen that courage / bravery are strongly attributed to the Gurus. What else is there about them that leads you to conclude that they are the best of mankind?

    thank you
     
  17. gur_meet

    gur_meet India
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    divine outpouring ji

    I expected these questions.

    For the Sikhs it is not the physical body that is seen in the Guru but the 'Jyote' in them. The age is also no consideration nor any linage. The same 'jyote' is within the Sri Guru Granth Sahebji . The Gurbani has been changing the Sikh psyche then and even now. The Gurbani gives wisdom. direction and above all develops Love with the formless God . It is the Shabad Roop Gurbani that enables the Sikh to meet Shabad Guru Within him/her .
    The Physical body of the Guru where 'jyote' is shining is loved by the Guru's Sikh as well and so is Sri Guru Granth Sahebji.

    The bani of other Bhagats that forms part of SGGSji clearly shows that the Shabad came through the bodies of Bhagats as well.

    The Allah. Hari, God are same this our Guru clearly tells us. These is only oneness.

    The Guru's loved all mankind and their life is an example.A large number of Gursikhs have also set examples through the life they lived.

    Veer kuldeepsb5 has also chosen to answer your questions one by one.
     
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  18. ballym

    ballym
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    I am not as learned as you but I would say that all religions have something different to say or convey. May be it is in the delivery part.
    muslim religion says... Allaah is last ... final... more like.. I am the best!!!.

    Christians say... jesus is SON of GOD... this leads to many uncomfortable questions i would not like to ask... but the point is that they also claim that He is only ... sort of authorised... to take you to God.
    hinduism... or hindu religion has a god for each person on earth!( just fun... no disrespect)... but they have developed such a system which is much away from what Geeta has said. they needed a cleansing which Guru Nanak Devji provided... by simplifying the clutter. Unfortunately, this clutter is coming in sikh religion also.
    our religion also teaches us to be humble. Whole book of SGGS ji is full of words for being humble.
    We love our religion because we can question him... like you say..."If that is not the case then please let me know. "
    SO it is not SIMILIAR things all religions say or convey. I do not want to give further points on this because you will start accusing me of diverting/ aggressive etc. ( or similair words or tone... do not start on this now)
    I guess it is a natural outcome of competitive spirit of human brain. It is much needed for development but has ssome side effects.

    So who is closest to God. Everyone. But you need to realise this. this lack of realization takes you away from God.
    Why we need Guru... to make us realize God.
    BTW, what qualities made your maths teacher your favorite..( if you were good in maths!!!)?

    Now... I and many others on this forum would like to know WHAT YOU have to say about the answers to these questions. You had been very good at sidestepping this issue.
    Let us hear you now.
    If not, then why on this earth you are here.
    Is it a monologue.. from our side? or is it like a site of muslim faith (which talks about one side only) referenced on some other thread here... that site does not have any discussion forum...just their one sided so-called answers!
    One more last thing, please let me have some links to muslim sites with a discussion board.... I guess this is much easier question to answer without if and but and oh and ah. Simple numbered list please.
     
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  19. divine outpouring

    divine outpouring
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    Thank you for your posts! Sorry for my late reply. To be honest, I’m not the most organised man and I have a lot on my plate at the moment. Don’t take that to mean I’m not interested in the discussion!

    Ok, I think I’m beginning to understand now. What Sikhs are looking for when searching for truth is not something that can be seen with the external senses. That makes sense (no pun intended), however, a question arises: can we recognise greatness with the external senses and rational thought alone? Or is greatness, of the sort attributed to the gurus, to be seen with the heart alone.

    If greatness can be seen externally then what are those external signs that make you choose the Gurus over the rest of mankind?

    If it can only be seen internally then greatness is an entirely subjective experience, as we’d have no means by which to agree on its definition.



    When I say many spiritual leaders have said the same thing I was referring to the SGGS quote in the previous post, the one that ended with

    jinee purakhee sathagur n saeviou sae dhukheeeae jug chaar ||
    Those who do not serve the True Guru shall be miserable throughout the four ages.
    SGGS 34


    I was watching Sikh TV (UK) the other day, there was some sort of conference in Leeds and I remember one of the speakers saying “if you live your life by Gurmat principles you will be truly successful (or words to that effect).” It struck me, the Muslims say the same thing about Islamic principles and the Christians about their principles, yet externally we are all so different. It’s easy enough to say that we all worship the same God, but some differences are irreconcilable. For example, an afterlife of heaven/hell and reincarnation cannot both be true. Yet if your Gurus were God conscious, receiving their teachings from an infallible divine source, and everyone else believes the same about their religious figures then we have a problem, as not everyone can be right.

    How do we resolve this issue? Look at all the religious figures in an objective way. Try to discern, through the signs apparent in their lives, who was the most God-conscious. Then follow that person/the teachings manifest through that person as they are in the best position to take you to God.

    That is what I’m trying to do here. As I have mentioned I am officially a Muslim, although I do feel like an embarrassment to the religion sometimes. I have had some exposure through my instructors of the reasons why Muslims believe the Prophet, peace be upon him, to be the greatest of all creation. I am trying to get the same kind of information here about the Gurus.

    From your answer I can see a list of signs emerging:

    Guru Nanak cleared the clutter from Hinduism
    Sikhism teaches you to be humble
    Sikhs can question their religion

    I’m guessing you’re asking me as a Muslim, to answer my questions on the gurus except with regards to the messenger of God, may peace and blessings be upon him as Allah promised.

    I don’t want to make this post too long as the subject has been referred to extensively by many authors.

    An excellent book on the subject is called Ash-shifa by an imam called Qadi ‘Iyad ((1083 - 1149)).

    Here are some of the chapter headings:
    Chapter One, Allah’s praise of him (the prophet) and His great esteem of him
    1) concerning praise of him and his numerous excellent qualities
    2) Allah describing him as a witness, and the praise and honour entailed by that
    3) Concerning Allah’s kindness and gentleness towards him
    4) Concerning Allah swearing by his immense worth
    5) Concerning Allah’s oath to confirm his place with Him
    6) Concerning Allah’s addressing the prophet with compassion and generosity
    (there are many more sections in this chapter, they all deal with how Allah treated the prophet peace be upon him and spoke of him in His glorious revelation.)

    Chapter two, Allah’s perfecting his good qualities of character and constitution, and giving him all the virtues of the deen and this world
    1) preface
    2) his physical attributes
    3) his cleanliness
    4) his intellect, eloquence and the acuteness of his faculties
    5) his eloquence and sound Arabic
    6) the nobility of his lineage, the honour of his birthplace and the place where he was brought up
    7) his state regarding the necessary actions of daily life
    8) marriage and the things connected to it
    9) things connected to money and goods
    10) his praiseworthy qualities
    11) his intellect
    12) his forbearance, long suffering and pardon
    13) his generosity and liberality
    14) his courage and bravery
    15) his modesty and lowering the glance
    16) his good companionship, good manners and good nature
    17) his compassion and mercy
    (there are many more sub-sections to this chapter, dealing with the personality of the prophet peace be upon him)

    The book goes on to describe the inward states and other aspects of the messenger peace be upon him. I recommend it as it is available in English, there are many other works but they have not been translated.

    I’m not actually a member of any Muslim message boards, so we’re in the same boat when it comes to searching for them. Try Google. I know BBC have separate message boards for all major faiths.

    I haven't gone into the evidences which each chapter gives as it would simply take ages, but i hope you have an idea of the importance of the subject in Islam and the way in which it is studied.

    Hope that has helped to answer any questions you may have.

    looking forward to reading your replies
     
  20. ballym

    ballym
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    a real quick skimming of your reply gives following points:
    1. sikh religion finally teaches you to be humble and earn by doing real job....
    2. Islam is leading people to basically hate others.. kaafir theory etc, no mingling with other faith etc.
    3. Allah qualities referred by you are all ... QUALITATIVE... where is real/ practical example from his life.
    4. Where did you get Islam Knowledge..... That place must have a option for discussion. Is is there... say yes or no..... No long answers please.


    I am in hurry so language is straight and more discussion is needed. Let me have pointwise.... short and crisp answers.
     
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  21. Satyaban

    Satyaban
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    Outpouring ji

    I understand your original question to be:

    "Who do sikhs believe is the one whom God loves the most, or the one who God has favoured the most, or the one who best followed God's commands, or the one who was in closest union with God?"

    It then morphed into:

    "What I’m asking is, how do you differentiate between good and bad people, or good and better people? What signs do you (Sikhs) look for? And to continue the thread, who is the best person? How did you reach that conclusion?"


    And now I think the latest reiteration is:

    "who is the greatest person that ever lived? how did you reach that conclusion?"

    I am not a Sikh but I think before anyone can answer I think your intent should be better defined. If I were to attempt to answer these vague questions, even without knowing the underlying intent, each would most likely be different. I will respond as follows.

    First I have never considered that The Creator would love one creation more than another.

    Secondly any determination concerning who is good and who is bad is wholly subjective and relative to each human experience That which is meat to one may be poison to another. As far as commands go some individuals have said God commands this and God commands that and each has followers who believe and accept it, which is fine, but these proclamations are not universal. I know of no such commands myself. Without knowing what is in a person's heart, and not what they say is in there, who is to know who is best or if there is a best. I do know I am not the best and very little more

    Thirdly I think "who is the greatest?" is a really silly question. Mohamed Ali the boxer?

    Because a person's faith is central to your query I do hope no religio-centric's answers are based on the false belief that their religion has an exclusivity on the truth.

    I do hope this post does not appear harsh, it is not meant to be.

    Peace

     
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