Who Is A Sikh?

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all!

I request all to participate who feel they are true Sikhs. A true Sikh is consenting by listening his Guru. Please name one activity that a Sikh is doing these days received directly through the Gurus. I will be thankful.


Balbir Singh

 

[simpy]

Respected balbir Ji,

All is Guru/Waheguru.

Bani is Nirankaar.

it is Guru's Nadar if me neech is accepted as a true Sikh, it is all in Guru's hands.

i live Gurbani, that is all i can say- i humbly read it, breathe it, see it, drink it, eat it, talk it, listen to it.................................................................................

forgive me please

 

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all and Surinder Jee!

Quote "it is Guru's Nadar if me neech is accepted as a true Sikh, it is all in Guru's hands."
That would be great if all can get rid of their neech ego. May I ask if decorating oneself with the title 'neech' is also a game of ego?

Quote "i live Gurbani, that is all i can say- i humbly read it, breathe it, see it, drink it, eat it, talk it, listen to it. . ."
Is Gurbaanee, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee? Have the Gurus also suggested us to read it, breath it, see it, eat it, talk it, listen to it?


Balbir Singh

 

[simpy]

Keep thinking, may one day you will get the answer my veer; as answering this will be a display of EGO

 

[spnadmin]

Respected people

"i live Gurbani, that is all i can say- i humbly read it, breathe it, see it, drink it, eat it, talk it, listen to it."

me too

Everyday I try harder. It feels good. It is a person's simple expression of faith.

 

[simpy]

Respected aad0002 Ji

this is our life sis.

Aren't All of us living this way, or at least trying

and most importantly we have sold our body and mind to Guru Ji.....

it is upto Guru Ji to accept us or reject us

Bani is our support- for everythingggggggggggggggggggg

forgive me please

and i humbly thank Balbir ji endlessly for bringing this up.

 

[Lionchild]

The sikh community and its message is indeed very interesting. Its been over a year that i have followed it, even though i am a sikhi of another manefestation, i still have some knowledge on the issues that face this community.

On the community side, i can see that diversity is still something that is much needed in the community. There is also a need for people to do more independant research into the faith, and less following of all these little rules.

The message of this way of life can be taught to anyone, though the community is preventing this from happening, in fear of change.

Mind you, if you are not growing, you are dying.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

The sikh community and its message is indeed very interesting.

Yes, we have read your criticisms of Sikh religion. Welcome back. I'm interested to engage you on your points of contention.

Its been over a year that i have followed it, even though i am a sikhi of another manefestation, i still have some knowledge on the issues that face this community.

Veer ji, a Sikh is a disciple of a Guru. You are not a Sikhi of another manifestation. You publically rejected Guruji and Sikhism and declared faith in Bahai religion. You are not even a Sikh.

Can I honestly ask you, you say you followed Sikhi for over a year. You say you FOLLOWED... Who were you following? Was it Guruji's will as stated in Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj? Rehitnamas? Rehit Maryada?

Or are those things all man-made religion and rules to you and you follow your own interpretation and ideal of what Sikhi should be without ever once submitting yourself to established Sikh religion? Do you as a young man have any respect for Sikh elders and teachers? Or do you presume to teach them all?

What kind of manifestation of Sikhi is this?

Sadly... what identity? the punjabi or sikhi? i have seen alot of stuff going on in the sikh community that i do not like, and more and more, i am happy that i am distancing myself from all of this.

That is why as of 5 days ago, i have officially given up the sikhi way of life, and gone with a more progressive community, which is the bahai faith.

In the 14 months of sikhi, i thought what i found was for me, but on closer look, the message that was being spread was designed not for the world, but for only one cultural community.

I have already declared my faith in the bahai, and have made many friends. At least i dont have to learn a new language, and dont have to change my name.

It was time for me to move on...

Article I
Any human being who faithfully believes in
i. One Immortal Being,
ii. Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Sahib to Guru Gobind Singh Sahib,
iii. The Guru Granth Sahib,
iv. The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus and

[SIZE=-1]v. the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh[/SIZE]​

Sikh Reht Maryada, The Definition of Sikh, Sikh Conduct & Conventions, Sikh Religion Living, India​

The message of this way of life can be taught to anyone, though the community is preventing this from happening, in fear of change.

Are you as a Bahai, who renounced Sikh faith and Guru, going to invent a new kind of manifestation to teach people all about Sikhi based on your experiences for a year rebelling and criticizing against everything it teaches?

Mind you, if you are not growing, you are dying.

And if they remain faithful Sikhs, they are stagnant, brainwashed, dying. And if they listen to you and your version of new and improved Lionchild Sikhi, they are growing and open-minded, not in a box, wiser than all who came before, just like Darcy Cardinal the Bahai who abandoned Sikhi? This is the enlightenment you offer to people, abandon Guru?

On the community side, i can see that diversity is still something that is much needed in the community. There is also a need for people to do more independant research into the faith, and less following of all these little rules.

These "little rules" as you call them are a part of the religious practice, that is the Rehit Maryada of Sikhism. Sikhism is not just a Holy Book, like Christianity where you can debate Sola Scriptora and individual interpretation. Sikhism is an institution of spiritual authority (Panj Piare who are the sargun saroop of Guru Himself; the Akal Takht which is the sargun sarooop of Guruji Himself.) Unlike Christianity in which the words were spoken by the Master, and hundreds years later written down, then translated and changed for two thousand years so that anybody could have an opinion and debate authority.

Guruji wrote the Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj in His own hand. Moreover, there are Hukamnamas written in Guruji's own hand to clarify things. And besides, there were brahmgyanis who assisted Guruji such as Bhai Gurdas and recorded His instructions, also as in the Rehitnamas. Anyone who studies Sikhism will see it is complete, and when individuals give individual interpretations, these can be checked against reliable first-hand sources... for errors.

Now, are you going to say you know better than Guruji? Yet, deceptively retain the Sikh facade while not being a follower of anyone but yourself?

REHAT​

gurU kw isK hovY, so AYsI rihq dI Kojxw krY, jyhVI rihq swihb KuSI AwvY
guroo kaa sikh hovai so aisee rehith dhee khojanaa karai jaeharree rehith saahib khushee aavai
The Sikh of the Guru should study Rehat and discipline and they should adopt those principles that please the Guru.​

Rehatnama Bhai Chaupaa Singh Jee
----------------------------------
GURBANI​

siqguru dwqw jIA kw sBsY dyie ADwru ] siqgur bcn kmwvxy scw eyhu vIcwru ]
sathigur dhaathaa jeea kaa sabhasai dhaee adhhaar || sathigur bachan kamaavanae sachaa eaehu veechaar ||
The True Guru is the Giver of the soul; He gives Support to all. Act according to the Instructions of the True Guru; this is the true philosophy.
Page 52 Guru Arjan Dev Jee Raag Sri Raag​

dwVHw muC isr kys bnweI ] hY ieh idRVH ijh pRBU rzweI ] myt rzweI ju sIs muMfwvY ] khu qy jg kYsy hir pwvY ]80]
dhaarrhaa mushh sir kaes banaaee || hai eih dhrirrh jih prabhoo razaaee || maett razaaee j sees mu(n)ddaavai || kahu thae jag kaisae har paavai ||80||
The hair moustache and beard are created within God's order. How can those who violate their natural form by cutting their hair ever be accepted by the Lord?

Rehatnama Bhai Desa Singh
--------------------------
gur bcn isau qUtw jwie ] drgih qWkau imlY sjwie]15]
gur bachan sio thoottaa jaae || dharagehi thaa(n)ko milai sajaaei||15||
Those who turn away from their responsibility to accept the Guru's orders will receive punishment in God's Court.​

Thankhaanama Bhai Nand Laal Jee
---------------------------------
SsqRhIn ieh kbhUM n hoeI ] rihqvMq Kwls hY soeI ]
shasathreheen eih kabehoo(n) n hoee || rehithava(n)th khaalas hai soee ||
He who never abandons his weapon (Kirpaan). Recognise them as the disciplined and pure Khalsa.​

Rehatnama Bhai Desa Singh
--------------------------
surmwidk iSMgwr nihN nihN pr qrunI sMig
suramaadhik shi(n)gaar nehi(n) nehi(n) par tharunee sa(n)gi
Do not wear make-up or jewellery. Do not commit adultery.​

Rehatnama Bhai Daya Singh Jee
------------------------------
vwihgurU guru mMqR su jwp kr iesnwn pVHY jpu jwpu ]]
vaahiguroo gur ma(n)thr s jaap kar eisanaan parrhai jap jaap ||||
Repeat the Mantra of the Guru 'Vaheguru'. Take your bath and then read your morning prayers.​

Rehatnama Bhai Nand Laal Jee
-----------------------------
GURBANI​

kir iesnwnu ismir pRBu Apnw mn qn Bey Arogw ]
kar eisanaan simar prabh apanaa man than bheae arogaa ||
After taking your cleansing bath, remember your God in meditation, and your mind and body shall be free of disease.​

Page 611 Guru Arjan Dev Jee Raag Sorat
---------------------------------------
ig~lI su~kI k~C pwie ley ] k~C dy pauNcy dw isK ivswh nw kry
gliee sukee kaashh paae leae || kaashh dhae pou(n)achae dhaa sikh visaah naa karae
Whether the washed Kasheraa is wet or dry it should be put on. When removing the Kasheraa only one leg should be removed and put into the new Kasheraa.​

Rehatnama Bhai Chaupaa Singh Jee​

Taken from Sikhitothemax, 101 REHATS OF A DISCIPLINED SIKH​

SikhiToTheMAX - Enabling Gurmat Knowledge
----------------------------------​

1.what is your first name and what does it mean?
My name is Darcy B Cardinal, but many ppl call my Darcy Starr, since it's my dads last name. Either one is fine to me, my name really means my family's long heritage.​

2. How much u consider urself on the scale of Sikhi?
On a lower level in Sikhi, i still have a long way to go and quite some time before i can actually consider taking amrit or even reading SGGs for that matter.​

3. Are you Amritdhari?
No​

9. Which forums you don’t like to post in and why?
I tend to stay away from the political forum since I have no knowledge on khalistan or Punjab politics. Why would a lonely boy from northern Alberta have to do with that stuff?​

14. Message to members of Sikh Sangat?
Less politics, more Sikhi! We need more threads on Sikhi and less on fake sants and other political issues.​

Lionchild's Interview - The Voice of Sikh Youth​

Veerji, Guru Gobind Singh Ji had 2 kirpans he named them Miri (temporal) and Piri (spiritual). One has to do with spiritual realities. The other has to do with political realities. Sikhs are to wield both of these kirpans.


You are not a Sikh, yet you use confusing terms like "Sikhi of another manifestation" and "Sikhi of another faith." You do not read Gurbani. You do not accept the Rehitnamas or the Rehit Maryada as authoritative. Yet you continue to preach what's wrong in Sikh religion and your personal ideas of what will make it right, even though you don't even understand this faith?

Veerji, doesn't that seem a little "off" to you? You spent a year "in Sikhi" and now you are qualified to correct everything about Sikhi? Yet Sikhi is about Guruji.

May I ask, what is your relationship to Guruji? Do you believe in Guru?

 

[Lionchild]

Hello Harjas Kaur Khalsa, salutations to you sister! Anyways, i never left SPN btw

Yes, we have read your criticisms of Sikh religion. Welcome back. I'm interested to engage you on your points of contention.

Sure, although i'm not here to get into an aguement if thats what you are looking for.

You are not a Sikhi of another manifestation. You publically rejected Guruji and Sikhism and declared faith in Bahai religion. You are not even a Sikh.

If you have learned the literal term and meaning of the word "sikh" you would know that it means basically disciple, learner, for me, i am a sikh in another path. HKK, i am using the term on a philosophical level

If I rejected guru ji, or waheguru, wouldnt I be atheist? As i mentioned earlier, i am following a different path. Whaterver you call "him", waheguru, jehovah, etc, we are all sikhs of god.

Can I honestly ask you, you say you followed Sikhi for over a year. You say you Who were you following? Was it Guruji's will as stated in Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj? Rehitnamas? Rehit Maryada?

Or are those things all man-made religion and rules to you and you follow your own interpretation and ideal of what Sikhi should be without ever once submitting yourself to established Sikh religion? Do you as a young man have any respect for Sikh elders and teachers? Or do you presume to teach them all?

I followed waheguru, but i did my search in sikhi independently an didn't bother with the man made rehats, instead, i tried my best to stick with the source - the sggs and its teachings. I had an english version, and i read it as well as the nitnem too.

The path of independent truth seeking will take you off the beaten track, and as a result taken me away from the mainstream community. However, it was a very positive experience, and i would reccomend it to anyone entering sikhi. Another aspect of independent truth seeking is that it independent, and not for anyone else, which is one reason why i don't like debating or argueing about religion.

As for the elders, they didnt have much respect for a young aboriginal man, never really got any answers from them. That is way i went to the source and writtings of the gurus... you do what you have to do to learn, with or without the community. Kind of hard to talk to people who call you a "annoying native" wouldn't you say? :hmm:

What kind of manifestation of Sikhi is this? Are you as a Bahai, who renounced Sikh faith and Guru, going to invent a new kind of manifestation to teach people all about Sikhi based on your experiences for a year rebelling and criticizing against everything it teaches?

And if they remain faithful Sikhs, they are stagnant, brainwashed, dying. And if they listen to you and your version of new and improved Lionchild Sikhi, they are growing and open-minded, not in a box, wiser than all who came before, just like Darcy Cardinal the Bahai who abandoned Sikhi? This is the enlightenment you offer to people, abandon Guru?

Manifestation are prophets and great teachers like guru nanak, Bahá'u'lláh, jesus, etc, i should have mentioned that before, sorry!

If people ask me about sikhi, i will foward them to books and writtings on the sikhi faith, namely the sggs and alike. Part of independent search is that its only for yourself, which is why i forward people to the source and other writtings other than tell it from my own understanding. Of course, i have mentioned my personal experiences to others, but i blame it on the actual people, not the religion.

Why don't you do research into what i am doing, instead of assuming what i'm doing.

These "little rules" as you call them are a part of the religious practice, that is the Rehit Maryada of Sikhism. Sikhism is not just a Holy Book, like Christianity where you can debate Sola Scriptora and individual interpretation. Sikhism is an institution of spiritual authority (Panj Piare who are the sargun saroop of Guru Himself; the Akal Takht which is the sargun sarooop of Guruji Himself.) Unlike Christianity in which the words were spoken by the Master, and hundreds years later written down, then translated and changed for two thousand years so that anybody could have an opinion and debate authority.

Guruji wrote the Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj in His own hand. Moreover, there are Hukamnamas written in Guruji's own hand to clarify things. And besides, there were brahmgyanis who assisted Guruji such as Bhai Gurdas and recorded His instructions, also as in the Rehitnamas. Anyone who studies Sikhism will see it is complete, and when individuals give individual interpretations, these can be checked against reliable first-hand sources... for errors.

This occurs in the bahai faith as well! Bahá'u'lláh and Abdu'l-Bahá wrote down the scripts as well, like guru nanak and the 10 gurus. The bahais also have the universal house of justice... if you take a look at the two, the two faiths are not that different. And we do not denounce other prophets, in fact we are told to look into other faiths knowledge too.

Now, are you going to say you know better than Guruji? Yet, deceptively retain the Sikh facade while not being a follower of anyone but yourself?

Did i say that, or did you? :wink:

You are not a Sikh, yet you use confusing terms like "Sikhi of another manifestation" and "Sikhi of another faith." You do not read Gurbani. You do not accept the Rehitnamas or the Rehit Maryada as authoritative. Yet you continue to preach what's wrong in Sikh religion and your personal ideas of what will make it right, even though you don't even understand this faith?

Well that is not true, I am currently reading with another friend the sggs from cover to cover, and I still read the nitnem from time to time... sorry to disappoint you :wink: And when i tell people of that way of life, when they do ask me, i tell them that its a "noble and respectable" way of life, and from there if they want more info, i will forward them to books and etc.

Veerji, doesn't that seem a little "off" to you? You spent a year "in Sikhi" and now you are qualified to correct everything about Sikhi? Yet Sikhi is about Guruji. May I ask, what is your relationship to Guruji? Do you believe in Guru?

Not really, i still don't tell people about some aspects of sikhi, due to my own understanding. As i mentioned before, its much better to direct people to the source and books than tell it through personal experience.

I am puzzled Harjas Kaur Khalsa, why do you want to stir debate with others? I'm not here to argue with you or anyone else.

best wishes to you sister Harjas!

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Sure, although i'm not here to get into an aguement if thats what you are looking for.

I am challenging the corruptions of Sikh definitions and criticisms of Sikh practice in what you are saying publically. Veerji, I don't mean you harm, but please examine some of the errors in what you are saying. I wish you greatest blessings. But this teaching Sikhism to Sikhs full of errors and misunderstandings and radical new self-definitions is off the wall. Especially since you have publically renounced Sikhism and embraced Bahai religion. You don't see anything distorted in that?

You said on another forum

2. How much u consider urself on the scale of Sikhi?
On a lower level in Sikhi, i still have a long way to go and quite some time before i can actually consider taking amrit or even reading SGGs for that matter.​

3. Are you Amritdhari?
No​

So from this which was written a few months ago, it says it will be quite some time before you even read Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj. And you have never taken amrit. Veerji, you never became a disciple of Guruji. You never embraced this religious path or learned what it was about. Instead, you jumped into it with all your own ideas about what it should be. I can quote directly from what you've written. You cannot claim to have followed Sikhism for over a year, because you never followed Sikhism.​

gur isK lY gur isK sdwXw ]ó]
gur sikh lai gur sikh sadhaayaa ||a||

Adopting the teachings of the Guru, the individual is called a Sikh of the Guru.​

Vaar 11 Pauri 3 line 8 of vaaran Bhai Gurdas​

ibn srnI nih koie qrwXw ]ññ]
bin saranee nehi koe tharaayaa ||aa||
Without surrender before the Guru none could get across (the world ocean). ​

Vaar 1 Pauri 11 line 8 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas ​

sqgur kI syvw gwKVI isru dIjY Awpu gvwie ] (27-8, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
satgur kee sayvaa gaakh-rhee sir deejai aap gavaa-ay.​

It is very difficult to serve the True Guru. Surrender your head; give up your selfishness.

If you have learned the literal term and meaning of the word "sikh" you would know that it means basically disciple, learner, for me, i am a sikh in another path. HKK, i am using the term on a philosophical level

​

Sikh comes from the word shishya, which is one-half of a Sanskrit concept, Guru-Shishya. There is no such thing as a Shishya without a Guru. Shishya does not translate into English as "student." It translates into "disciple," one committed to following a Guru. In Sikhism, Sikhs are disciples of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, and all the Jyote manifestations until the Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. It is very specific what a Sikh is. The generalist terminology in which you are using it as "I'm Sikhi of another manifestation," As to put your abandonment of Sikh religion and Guru to pursue the path of Bahai is some kind of equivalent to Sikhi is complete bhull.​

qnu mnu gur pih vyicAw mnu dIAw isru nwil ] (20-16, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
tan man gur peh vaychi-aa man dee-aa sir naal.​

I have sold my body and mind to the Guru, and I have given my mind and head as well.

AwpxY min iciq khY khwey ibnu gur Awpu n jweI ] (32-10, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)​

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aapnai man chit kahai kahaa-ay bin gur aap na jaa-ee.​

Within your conscious mind, you may say anything, but without the Guru, selfishness is not removed.​

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Sbd gurU gur vwh gurmuK pwieAw]
shabadh guroo gur vaah guramukh paaeiaa||
From the Guru the disciple obtains the wondrous Word
Line 1

cylw surq smwh AlK lKwieAw]

chaelaa surath samaah alakh lakhaaeiaa||
And as a disciple, merging his consciousness in it, comes face to face with imperceptible Lord.​

Vaar 3 Pauri 4 line2 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas
​

Please be clear out of respect to Sikh religion. You are passing yourself off as something you are not. On a physical level, you have no bond with the Sikh Guru. You are not a Sikh, follower of Sikh Guru. You publically renounced the Sikh religion, which is the path given to us to follow by Guruji, thus you have turned your back on Guru.

If I rejected guru ji, or waheguru, wouldnt I be atheist? As i mentioned earlier, i am following a different path. Whaterver you call "him", waheguru, jehovah, etc, we are all sikhs of god.

You aren't even aware of how much error and distortion is in your thinking. You cannot follow a Guru, and leave the Guru's path (Sikhism) and say you are still following the same Guru. We are not all Sikhs of one God.
​

First the term Jehovah is an Anglicized corruption of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton YHWH, which the Jewish scholars left out all vowels so the word would remain unpronounceable. Later, Christian thologians in flagrant violation of Jewish teaching, rendered the word Yahweh, and used it in casual speech. Another violation of Jewish teaching, because YHWH represented an unknowable aspect of creator God, like nirguna. To speak this uncreated, infinite potential with finite lips was to render it another, finite meaning which invalidated the concept. To further corrupt matters, the term Jehovah has no Hebrew linguistic equivalent. The word is simply derived as God's name, like a human being has a given name which is a parallel to idolatry, or worship of a recognizable form.​

And in addition to that, according to Christian theologians, Jehovah God is the same equivalent as Jesus the human being, who possesses dual natures, both divine and human. Thus, to refer to Waheguru as equivalent to Jehovah, is to call Waheguru as Jesus the man-God, clearly an idolatrous concept. I'm afraid if you analyze religious terms, one has to acknowledge things are not equivalents, but very defined contradictory teachings.​

Waheguru according to the vaars of Bhai Gurdas is V for Vishnu, H for Har, G for Gobind and R for Ram. I do not believe for one moment any Christian will accept this definition of God as being equivalent to Jehovah. Now, on another level, yes there is one God, and we call him different things. But what I'm highlighting is be careful with definitions. YHWH does have a parallel to Waheguru but not Jehovah, because in Sikhism God is not an incarnated being like Jesus.​

We cannot all be Sikhs of God, Veerji, because one cannot be a disciple of the nirgun aspect of Unfathomable God. This is why a Guru is needed. A Guru is the physical presence of a reality greater than human minds can comprehend. You cannot be a disciple of Unknowable consciousness. You can only be a disciple of Guru, who imparts to his chelas this opportunity to become jeevan mukt through opening the tenth door and giving darshan of Waheguru.​

I followed waheguru, but i did my search in sikhi independently an didn't bother with the man made rehats, instead, i tried my best to stick with the source - the sggs and its teachings. I had an english version, and i read it as well as the nitnem too.

How in the world did you follow Waheguru? By intuition? You didn't bother with the man-made rehits....

Veerji, first of all the ShabadGuruji is laaridar saroop, very difficult to read. And there are points of contention in Gursikhi, because people all have different minds and understandings. This isn't bad, it makes things lively. Bhai Gurdas was the scribe of Guru Arjun Dev and penned much of the Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in his own hand directly from the Guru's instruction. Reading vaars of Bhai Gurdas can help clear up contentious points of interpretation in Gurbani.

" In later years Guru Arjan Dev Ji came to refer to the personal compositions of Bhai Gurdas Ji as ‘providing the key to Aadh Guru Granth Sahib Ji. ” The original Aadh Granth Sahib Ji is in the actual hand writing of Bhai Gurdas Ji and is possession of the Sodhi family at Kartarpur." ​

http://www.info-sikh.com/GurdasPage1.html​

Sikh religion actually provides a lot of checks and balances and secondary sources of clarification to avoid internal contradiction or independant interpretation. It's impossible to approach this religion as you would Christianity where the definitions are so broad and so ancient that hundreds of individual interpretations compete for validity. Sikhism is very clear. And what you are teaching and promoting is anti-Gurmat.

The path of independent truth seeking will take you off the beaten track, and as a result taken me away from the mainstream community. However, it was a very positive experience, and i would reccomend it to anyone entering sikhi. Another aspect of independent truth seeking is that it independent, and not for anyone else, which is one reason why i don't like debating or argueing about religion.

If you are a submitted disciple of Satguruji, it will take you into the sadhsangat, not off on a beaten track, not off into Bahai religion. Independant truth-seeking is the antithesis of being a Sikh, a disciple, a follower of Guru. One reason you don't like to debate religion, yet you are on forums is you are preaching errors and avoiding correction. Analyze what you are saying with accepted Gursikhi. You have to admit you contradict mainstream Sikh teaching. You should have enough humility to realize that maybe you shouldn't be teaching in the name of Sikhism or criticizing Sikhism.​

As for the elders, they didnt have much respect for a young aboriginal man, never really got any answers from them. That is way i went to the source and writtings of the gurus... you do what you have to do to learn, with or without the community. Kind of hard to talk to people who call you a "annoying native" wouldn't you say? :hmm:

Veerji, what you are doing, is liable to punishment. All I read in your blog, in your posts is arguing against the answers. You aren't annoying, you're disrespectful of Sikhism, and you're teaching false things in it's name. If I'm annoying" to Gursikh elders, I ask them for forgiveness. I don't justify my own errors by criticizing their "hard talk." They don't owe you any respect. But if you are a disciple of this path, you owe them a great deal of respect. Especially Panj Piare who are Guruji's own saroop.
​

so guru soei isK hY joqI joiq smwxY]
so gur soea isikh hai jothee joth samaanai||
Externally the Sikh and Guru remain as they were, but internally, the light of the one permeates the other.
Line 5 ​

iek gurU iek isK hY guru Sbd is\wxY]
eik guroo eik sikh hai gur shabadh sinjaanai||
Becoming the Sikh of the One Guru, the disciple understands the word of the Guru.​

Vaar 13 Pauri 1 line 6 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas ​

According to Gurbani you must be part of a sangat. You cannot do Sikhi on your own. You cannot just read Gurbani. You have to learn Gurmukhi. You have to be submitted to Guru before you can have any kind of understanding. And as a Sikh, you have to conform your opinions to the Panth. ​

Manifestation are prophets and great teachers like guru nanak, Bahá'u'lláh, jesus, etc, i should have mentioned that before, sorry! If people ask me about sikhi, i will foward them to books and writtings on the sikhi faith, namely the sggs and alike. Part of independent search is that its only for yourself, which is why i forward people to the source and other writtings other than tell it from my own understanding. Of course, i have mentioned my personal experiences to others, but i blame it on the actual people, not the religion...Why don't you do research into what i am doing, instead of assuming what i'm doing.

I'm not assuming what you're doing. I can quote you word for word if you like. Guru Nanak Dev Ji was not a prophet or a great teacher. He is living Guru. See, this is the kind of falsehood and distortion you promote. Guru Nanak Dev Ji is not a manifestation like the Baha'ullah or Jesus. That's your interpretation. But when someone tells you thats incorrect Sikh teaching, you just go on like a lawnmower and say all these Sikhs are wrong, you alone are right on the basis of individual self-authority and contine to speak for what Sikhism is or isn't, criticizing and correcting based on your own, erroneous opinions. ​

You are blaming your personal experiences on others, and do not have eyes to see that your own actions have ostracized you. Not only do you have wrong opinions about Sikhism, you are publically promoting your own opinions over "man-made rehits." Some of the scholars who wrote Rehitnamay heard from the Guru's own lips. DIRECTLY! The Khalsa Panth is a corporate entity, the sargun saroop of Guruji and has put together the Rehit Maryada.​

Guruji wrote the Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj in His own hand. Moreover, there are Hukamnamas written in Guruji's own hand to clarify things. And besides, there were brahmgyanis who assisted Guruji such as Bhai Gurdas and recorded His instructions, also as in the Rehitnamas. Anyone who studies Sikhism will see it is complete, and when individuals give individual interpretations, these can be checked against reliable first-hand sources... for errors.

~This occurs in the bahai faith as well! Bahá'u'lláh and Abdu'l-Bahá wrote down the scripts as well, like guru nanak and the 10 gurus. The bahais also have the universal house of justice... if you take a look at the two, the two faiths are not that different. And we do not denounce other prophets, in fact we are told to look into other faiths knowledge too.​

You are deliberately skirting the answer. It's not anything to do with what Bahais do. But pointing out that you cannot be your own authority in the name of Sikh religion, because the secondary sources for Sikhism prevent internal contradiction and independent interpretation, which is what you are doing. Not to follow teachings of Bahai's is NOT the same as denouncing prophets. Again, Guruji is not a prophet. And we are NOT told to study other religious faiths. Why would we do this when we have Shabadguru? When we have our own religious path?​

Why are you promoting that Sikhs can interchangeably follow any teaching, or any path or any guru/prophet/incarnation as it suits them, while still calling themselves the name of Sikh? If someone is a Sikh, shishya, he is committed to, he is disciple of a True Guru. That path and command he follows, not another.​

sqgur qy jo muh Pyrih mQy iqn kwly ] (30-3, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)

satgur tay jo muh fayreh mathay tin kaalay.

Those who turn their faces away from the True Guru shall have their faces blackened. ​

​

Now, are you going to say you know better than Guruji? Yet, deceptively retain the Sikh facade while not being a follower of anyone but yourself? ~Did i say that, or did you? :wink:

You abandoned Sikh religion, what do you think?

Well that is not true, I am currently reading with another friend the sggs from cover to cover, and I still read the nitnem from time to time... sorry to disappoint you :wink:

But you are not submitted to Guruji, so what's the point?

Not really, i still don't tell people about some aspects of sikhi, due to my own understanding. As i mentioned before, its much better to direct people to the source and books than tell it through personal experience... I am puzzled Harjas Kaur Khalsa, why do you want to stir debate with others? I'm not here to argue with you or anyone else.

[/quote] Your posts and blog are filled with your interpretation, criticisms, and correction of what you feel is wrong with Sikh religion. Do you deny this? Naturally such positions provoke a response. Or do you deny this too?

Yet, underneath it all, they actually knowledge of sikhi is shallow. Another point to consider is that most sikhs are stuck in a narrow way of thinking when it comes to sikhi. Rehats and jathas have taken the place of the philosophy and meditation that sikhi core is made of. As people depend on other peoples interpretation of sikhi, many people simply are just displaying an image and not acting like a Sikh. To me, IMHO, the children are the real sikhs, unspoiled and largely not indoctrinated with expectations. It’s only later on in life that their box like parent’s place the same burden of following man made rehats and jathas. This continues on with their children, and so on. IMHO, the sikh community is merely putting on a display, pretending to be sikhi.

Do you think such negative criticism of Sikhs and Sikhi is NOT argumentative? We should all sit back and unquestioningly be taught by the likes of you without responding? The Sikh community is putting on a display pretending to be Sikhi, while you who publically renounce Sikhism make yourself some kind of authority of proper Sikh teaching. You can't see how crazy and imbalanced this is?​

 

[Lionchild]

As i said Harjas Kaur Khalsa, i'm not on SPN to argue with anyone here, i had enough of that when i was on sikhsangat.com!

All valid points, some stuff i learned from. However, my interpretation of what is god or how to follow it is my own path, seperate from your views.

If you think i am avoiding your answers, well i have better things to focus on now, like learning more and meditation :wink:

Have a good day, Harjas!

-lionchild

BTW: my blog hasn't been touched in weeks eeK!!

 

[kaur-1]

I am challenging the corruptions of Sikh definitions and criticisms of Sikh practice in what you are saying publically. Veerji, I don't mean you harm, but please examine some of the errors in what you are saying. I wish you greatest blessings. But this teaching Sikhism to Sikhs full of errors and misunderstandings and radical new self-definitions is off the wall. Especially since you have publically renounced Sikhism and embraced Bahai religion. You don't see anything distorted in that?

You said on another forum

So from this which was written a few months ago, it says it will be quite some time before you even read Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj. And you have never taken amrit. Veerji, you never became a disciple of Guruji. You never embraced this religious path or learned what it was about. Instead, you jumped into it with all your own ideas about what it should be. I can quote directly from what you've written. You cannot claim to have followed Sikhism for over a year, because you never followed Sikhism.​

Sikh comes from the word shishya, which is one-half of a Sanskrit concept, Guru-Shishya. There is no such thing as a Shishya without a Guru. Shishya does not translate into English as "student." It translates into "disciple," one committed to following a Guru. In Sikhism, Sikhs are disciples of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, and all the Jyote manifestations until the Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. It is very specific what a Sikh is. The generalist terminology in which you are using it as "I'm Sikhi of another manifestation," As to put your abandonment of Sikh religion and Guru to pursue the path of Bahai is some kind of equivalent to Sikhi is complete bhull.​

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​

Please be clear out of respect to Sikh religion. You are passing yourself off as something you are not. On a physical level, you have no bond with the Sikh Guru. You are not a Sikh, follower of Sikh Guru. You publically renounced the Sikh religion, which is the path given to us to follow by Guruji, thus you have turned your back on Guru.
You aren't even aware of how much error and distortion is in your thinking. You cannot follow a Guru, and leave the Guru's path (Sikhism) and say you are still following the same Guru. We are not all Sikhs of one God.
​

First the term Jehovah is an Anglicized corruption of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton YHWH, which the Jewish scholars left out all vowels so the word would remain unpronounceable. Later, Christian thologians in flagrant violation of Jewish teaching, rendered the word Yahweh, and used it in casual speech. Another violation of Jewish teaching, because YHWH represented an unknowable aspect of creator God, like nirguna. To speak this uncreated, infinite potential with finite lips was to render it another, finite meaning which invalidated the concept. To further corrupt matters, the term Jehovah has no Hebrew linguistic equivalent. The word is simply derived as God's name, like a human being has a given name which is a parallel to idolatry, or worship of a recognizable form.​

And in addition to that, according to Christian theologians, Jehovah God is the same equivalent as Jesus the human being, who possesses dual natures, both divine and human. Thus, to refer to Waheguru as equivalent to Jehovah, is to call Waheguru as Jesus the man-God, clearly an idolatrous concept. I'm afraid if you analyze religious terms, one has to acknowledge things are not equivalents, but very defined contradictory teachings.​

Waheguru according to the vaars of Bhai Gurdas is V for Vishnu, H for Har, G for Gobind and R for Ram. I do not believe for one moment any Christian will accept this definition of God as being equivalent to Jehovah. Now, on another level, yes there is one God, and we call him different things. But what I'm highlighting is be careful with definitions. YHWH does have a parallel to Waheguru but not Jehovah, because in Sikhism God is not an incarnated being like Jesus.​

We cannot all be Sikhs of God, Veerji, because one cannot be a disciple of the nirgun aspect of Unfathomable God. This is why a Guru is needed. A Guru is the physical presence of a reality greater than human minds can comprehend. You cannot be a disciple of Unknowable consciousness. You can only be a disciple of Guru, who imparts to his chelas this opportunity to become jeevan mukt through opening the tenth door and giving darshan of Waheguru.​

How in the world did you follow Waheguru? By intuition? You didn't bother with the man-made rehits....

Veerji, first of all the ShabadGuruji is laaridar saroop, very difficult to read. And there are points of contention in Gursikhi, because people all have different minds and understandings. This isn't bad, it makes things lively. Bhai Gurdas was the scribe of Guru Arjun Dev and penned much of the Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in his own hand directly from the Guru's instruction. Reading vaars of Bhai Gurdas can help clear up contentious points of interpretation in Gurbani.
Sikh religion actually provides a lot of checks and balances and secondary sources of clarification to avoid internal contradiction or independant interpretation. It's impossible to approach this religion as you would Christianity where the definitions are so broad and so ancient that hundreds of individual interpretations compete for validity. Sikhism is very clear. And what you are teaching and promoting is anti-Gurmat.

If you are a submitted disciple of Satguruji, it will take you into the sadhsangat, not off on a beaten track, not off into Bahai religion. Independant truth-seeking is the antithesis of being a Sikh, a disciple, a follower of Guru. One reason you don't like to debate religion, yet you are on forums is you are preaching errors and avoiding correction. Analyze what you are saying with accepted Gursikhi. You have to admit you contradict mainstream Sikh teaching. You should have enough humility to realize that maybe you shouldn't be teaching in the name of Sikhism or criticizing Sikhism.​

Veerji, what you are doing, is liable to punishment. All I read in your blog, in your posts is arguing against the answers. You aren't annoying, you're disrespectful of Sikhism, and you're teaching false things in it's name. If I'm annoying" to Gursikh elders, I ask them for forgiveness. I don't justify my own errors by criticizing their "hard talk." They don't owe you any respect. But if you are a disciple of this path, you owe them a great deal of respect. Especially Panj Piare who are Guruji's own saroop.
​

According to Gurbani you must be part of a sangat. You cannot do Sikhi on your own. You cannot just read Gurbani. You have to learn Gurmukhi. You have to be submitted to Guru before you can have any kind of understanding. And as a Sikh, you have to conform your opinions to the Panth.


I'm not assuming what you're doing. I can quote you word for word if you like. Guru Nanak Dev Ji was not a prophet or a great teacher. He is living Guru. See, this is the kind of falsehood and distortion you promote. Guru Nanak Dev Ji is not a manifestation like the Baha'ullah or Jesus. That's your interpretation. But when someone tells you thats incorrect Sikh teaching, you just go on like a lawnmower and say all these Sikhs are wrong, you alone are right on the basis of individual self-authority and contine to speak for what Sikhism is or isn't, criticizing and correcting based on your own, erroneous opinions. ​

You are blaming your personal experiences on others, and do not have eyes to see that your own actions have ostracized you. Not only do you have wrong opinions about Sikhism, you are publically promoting your own opinions over "man-made rehits." Some of the scholars who wrote Rehitnamay heard from the Guru's own lips. DIRECTLY! The Khalsa Panth is a corporate entity, the sargun saroop of Guruji and has put together the Rehit Maryada.​

You are deliberately skirting the answer. It's not anything to do with what Bahais do. But pointing out that you cannot be your own authority in the name of Sikh religion, because the secondary sources for Sikhism prevent internal contradiction and independent interpretation, which is what you are doing. Not to follow teachings of Bahai's is NOT the same as denouncing prophets. Again, Guruji is not a prophet. And we are NOT told to study other religious faiths. Why would we do this when we have Shabadguru? When we have our own religious path?​

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Why are you promoting that Sikhs can interchangeably follow any teaching, or any path or any guru/prophet/incarnation as it suits them, while still calling themselves the name of Sikh? If someone is a Sikh, shishya, he is committed to, he is disciple of a True Guru. That path and command he follows, not another.​

You abandoned Sikh religion, what do you think?
But you are not submitted to Guruji, so what's the point?
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Your posts and blog are filled with your interpretation, criticisms, and correction of what you feel is wrong with Sikh religion. Do you deny this? Naturally such positions provoke a response. Or do you deny this too?
Do you think such negative criticism of Sikhs and Sikhi is NOT argumentative? We should all sit back and unquestioningly be taught by the likes of you without responding? The Sikh community is putting on a display pretending to be Sikhi, while you who publically renounce Sikhism make yourself some kind of authority of proper Sikh teaching. You can't see how crazy and imbalanced this is?​

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Dear Harjas Kaur Khalsa Ji, Hear.. Hear..Well said bhenji.

 

[Lionchild]

]Your posts and blog are filled with your interpretation, criticisms, and correction of what you feel is wrong with Sikh religion. Do you deny this? Naturally such positions provoke a response. Or do you deny this too?

Do you think such negative criticism of Sikhs and Sikhi is NOT argumentative? We should all sit back and unquestioningly be taught by the likes of you without responding? The Sikh community is putting on a display pretending to be Sikhi, while you who publically renounce Sikhism make yourself some kind of authority of proper Sikh teaching. You can't see how crazy and imbalanced this is?

Sure, one reason why i dont delete comments and leave commenting on my blog left open. No doubt people will say otherwise about my observations... lack of diversity, conflicting messages, all points that other converts and others have pointed out.

Yes, i do admit that mistakes and damaging comments i have left behind in the past. And that i am not perfect by no means.

With that said, i have always been a person to speak about what i see going on around me, whether people like it or not. That's just who i am :hmm:

But at the same time, i do not try and say to others that my points are correct all the time, there have been many times that i have been corrected and i am still a learner, and always will be.

When i do talk to others on sikhism, i often tell them to google it, as i have my own experiences in this way of life that others had. Hence, i do not on a normal basis teach others on sikhi (other that they worship god, the holy writtings is the sggs, the guru or teachers are the 11 gurus).

Anyways, Kaur-1, Harjas Kaur Khalsa... i do not want to be always talking about the negative stuff on these forums, nor do i want to create more anger between us all.

We are all learners too, and make mistakes

Best wishes and salutations to you both, have a good day!

-Lionchild

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Yes, i do admit that mistakes and damaging comments i have left behind in the past. And that i am not perfect by no means.

That past was not very long ago. You only stopped linking your critical blog 3 or so days ago. Just take a look at what you yourself are saying. If you self-correct a bad approach, no one could possibly have hard feelings toward you. If you have an opinion thats a great thing. It opens up conversation. But if you are criticizing Gurmat teaching and trying to promote a new version of Sikhism, expect it won't go over very well, and people will challenge what they don't agree with.

I actually think you have some good points and a lot to contribute. But you do tend to slosh many religious teachings together like a milkshake. If you say something as a Bahai, people may say, "well I don't like that opinion." But that's what a forum is for. But if you're speaking to correct Sikhism's faults and religious errors from a Bahai point of view....

what do you think? Everyone will jump!

That's like poking the hornets nest and then saying, "well I don't like to fight. I'm going to go meditate now." Or something like that you said was funny.

I'm sorry to hear you cut your hair recently.

 

[simpy]

Respected Saadh Sangat Ji,

was reading the writting by Harsimran Singh Ji posted by kaur-1 ji...

deeply touched by the following lines-

"Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not say, If you take amrit you will become a Sikh. He said, if you want to become a Sikh you must also take amrit. There is a huge difference in the two. ....."

Dhan Dhan Siri Guru raam Das Ji De Bachan Panna # 303


pUry gur kw hukmu n mMnY Ehu mnmuKu AigAwnu muTw ibKu mwieAw ]
Esu AMdir kUVu kUVo kir buJY Axhody JgVy diX Es dY gil pwieAw ]
Ehu gl ProsI kry bhuqyrI Es dw boilAw iksY n BwieAw ]
Ehu Gir Gir hMFY ijau rMn duohwgix Esu nwil muhu joVy Esu BI lCxu lwieAw ]
gurmuiK hoie su Ailpqo vrqY Es dw pwsu Cif gur pwis bih jwieAw ]
jo guru gopy Awpxw su Blw nwhI pMchu Ein lwhw mUlu sBu gvwieAw ]
pihlw Awgmu ingmu nwnku AwiK suxwey pUry gur kw bcnu aupir AwieAw ]
gurisKw vifAweI BwvY gur pUry kI mnmuKw Eh vylw hiQ n AwieAw ]



Gurmukhi Translations from: GuruGranth darpan


jo mnu`K pUry siqgurU dw hukm nhIN mMndw, Eh Awpxy mn dy ip`Cy qurn vwlw by-smJ bMdw mwieAw (rUp zihr) dw T`igAw (hoieAw hY,) aus dy mn ivc JUT hY (s`c ƒ BI auh) JUT hI smJdw hY, ies vwsqy Ksm ny (JUT bolx qoN pYdw hoey) ivArQ JgVy aus dy gl pw id`qy hn, aUl-jlUl bol ky rotI kmwaux dy auh bQyry jqn krdw hY, pr aus dy bcn iksy ƒ cMgy nhIN l`gdy; Cu`tV rMn vW| auh Gr Gr iPrdw hY, jo mnu``K aus nwl myl-mulwkwq r`Kdw hY aus ƒ BI klµk l`g jWdw hY [ jo mnu`K siqgurU dy snmuK huMdw hY auh mnmuK qoN v`Krw rihMdw hY, mnmuK dw swQ C`f ky siqgurU dI sMgq krdw hY [ hy sMq jnoN! (mukdI g`l ieh hY ik) jo mnu`K Awpxy siqgurU dI inMdw krdw hY, auh cMgw nhIN, (mnu`Kw jnm ivc) jo K`txw sI auh BI gvw lYNdw hY qy (mnu`K-jnm-rUp) mUl BI gvw lYNdw hY [nwnk AwK ky suxwauNdw hY (Bwv, nwnk ies g`l qy zor dy ky AwKdw hY ik) (guris`K leI ieh) pihlw Awgm ingm hY (ieho hI hY vyd SwsqRW dw au~qm is`DWq ik) pUry siqgurU dw bcn (sB qoN) vDIk pRmwxIk hY [ (ies vwsqy) guris`KW ƒ pUry siqgurU dI vifAweI cMgI l`gdI hY (pr) mnmuKW ƒ gurU dI vifAweI smJx dw auh smW h`Q nhIN AwauNdw [2[






so it is important that we also obey our Dhan Dhan Guru Sahibaan's WORD-SHABAD-Teaching-ULTIMATE TRUTH.
True Sikh is who LIVES THE TRUTH-within and without.........................and the way Guru Ji is describing the life of a manmukh, how he/she is lost in conflicts, we must be very careful..............

forgive me please

 

[Lionchild]

That past was not very long ago. You only stopped linking your critical blog 3 or so days ago. Just take a look at what you yourself are saying. If you self-correct a bad approach, no one could possibly have hard feelings toward you. If you have an opinion thats a great thing. It opens up conversation. But if you are criticizing Gurmat teaching and trying to promote a new version of Sikhism, expect it won't go over very well, and people will challenge what they don't agree with.

I actually think you have some good points and a lot to contribute. But you do tend to slosh many religious teachings together like a milkshake. If you say something as a Bahai, people may say, "well I don't like that opinion." But that's what a forum is for. But if you're speaking to correct Sikhism's faults and religious errors from a Bahai point of view....

what do you think? Everyone will jump!

That's like poking the hornets nest and then saying, "well I don't like to fight. I'm going to go meditate now." Or something like that you said was funny.

I'm sorry to hear you cut your hair recently.

Yeah, i get what you mean... :wink:

As for my hair, gave it to another kid who needed it. There are still some sikh aspects that i still will be following, mind you, those aspects are seen in every way of life.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

so it is important that we also obey our Dhan Dhan Guru Sahibaan's WORD-SHABAD-Teaching-ULTIMATE TRUTH.
True Sikh is who LIVES THE TRUTH-within and without.........................Guru Ji is describing the life of a manmukh, how he/she is lost in conflicts, we must be very careful..............

For an amritdhari Sikh obeying the Khalsa Rehit Maryada is also Ultimate Truth, because the Khalsa Panth is also Guruji's Sargun saroop. Don't confuse a Gurmukh with a Khalsa Sikh. Gurmukh is the end result of Guruji's kirpa to His Sikh. If we don't contradict enemies of the Panth, insidious missionaries, and all forms of anti-Gurmat teaching, the sheer errors will overwhelm us. Kaliyug is an era to resist corruption.

Clearly without resistence, we are in a surrendered state, vulnerable to assimilation. Consider the Gandhian pacifism inherent in your ideal of promoting non-conflict against insidious attacks on Gurmat. That isn't the Gurmat understanding of the Gurbani. A Sikh isn't lost in conflicts, but knows very clearly what Gurmat is, and resists attempts at confusion.

the Guru sent out Hukamnamas (Gurus commands) to his follower calling for weapons and horses. In the same period, he abolished the system of local Sikh leaders, the Masands, many of whom were exploiting their congregations financially while encouraging subservience.

http://www.searchsikhism.com/nanak10.html

Sanatan Singh Sabha is a Sikh organization formed by some hinduism-influenced Sikhs (called Sanatan Sikhs) in 1873. The Sanatan Singh Sabha regards Sikhs to be Hindus by the definition that a "Hindu" is someone who practices karma and bhakti (of God) in any way for the achievement of Moksha. A Sikh that practices Hinduism is known as a Sanatan Sikh. Because of their view that Sikhs are Hindus, Sanatan Sikhs are largely considered to be heretics and blasphemers. There is a large group of Hindus, mainly from Punjab, that follows Sikhism, believing that the Guru Granth Sahib is the fifth Veda. According to Vish Ayengar, all the spiritual traditions of India are inspired by the Vedas. Many Sikhs also worship in Hindu mandirs, and participate in Hindu rituals.

It is noteworthy to mention that Sikhism discourages Idol-worship and ritualism. Vedas do not have any religions significance in Sikhism. To counter the impact of Sanatan Singh Sabha, Tat Khalsa (True Khalsa) Singh Sabha was organized by a rival group at Lahore in 1879 (also called Lahore Singh Sabha), and it maintains that it is impossible to be both a Hindu and a Sikh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanatan_Singh_Sabha

"Tat-Khalsa Singh Sabha began as a defense against the proselytizing activities of Christians and Arya Samajists (Hindu reformists) and sought the reconversion of many Sikhs back from Hinduism."

"Guru Gobind appeared in the world as the tenth incarnation. He recited the name of the creator who is unseen, eternal, and saintliness. He established the Khalsa, a sect of his own, and gave it great glory. Wearing long hair He grasped the sword and smothered his enemies. He put on the breeches of self-restraint and practiced arms. He established the Sikh war-cry and was victorious in mighty battles. thus arose the race of Singhs who wore blue clothes. Gobind Singh! You were both Guru and disciple!" (Bhai Gurdas Singh)

http://www.searchsikhism.com/nanak10.html

"Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not say, If you take amrit you will become a Sikh. He said, if you want to become a Sikh you must also take amrit. There is a huge difference in the two."

Now you are saying Guruji's amrit does not make a Sikh? Yet you contradict the Rehit Maryada which clearly states when you take amrit you become the Guru's Sikh. While everyone may be at different stages of development, unless you are breaking rehit, you remain the Guru's Sikh and a member of the Khalsa Panth. It doesn't matter if you're a perfect person or not. Amrit is giving you the means and discipline to become more perfect over time. Don't invalidate the power of the Guru's amrit.

The Jathedar of the Panj Pyare is to utter the Fateh, as is the tradition from Satguru’s time, and congratulate the ‘new’ initiates. He also says, "Khalsa ji, many of you are blessed for on this day you have received Satguru’s Ji’s gift of Amrit. You have shaken off the influence of Guruless people. You now belong to the Guru. From this day forward, you are the sons and daughters of the Guru, and your mind, body and wealth belong to the Guru. Having taken the Guru’s Amrit, your previous caste, family name and sins are no more. Your previous life is finished and today you have taken birth in the House of the Guru. You are all now part of the Khalsa family:

http://www.damdamitaksal.com/lit_rehat_12.htm

p. After this, one from amongst the five beloved ones should explain to the initiates the discipline of the order : * Today you are reborn in the true Guru's household, ending the cycle of migration, and joined the Khalsa Panth (order). *Your spiritual father is now Guru Gobind Singh and spiritual mother, Mata Sahib Kaur. *Your place of birth is Kesgarh Sahib and your native place is Anandpur Sahib. You, being the sons of one father, are, inter-se yourselves and other baptised Sikhs, spiritual brothers. You have become the pure Khalsa, having renounced your previous lineage, professional background, calling (occupation), beliefs, that is, having given up all connections with your caste, descent, birth, country, religion, etc. You are to worship none except the One Timeless Being (Waheguru) no God, Goddess, incarnation or prophet. You are not to think of anyone except the ten Gurus and anything except their gospel as your saviour.

http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_six.html

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

As for my hair, gave it to another kid who needed it. There are still some sikh aspects that i still will be following, mind you, those aspects are seen in every way of life.

Lionchild veerji,

I encourage you to hold on to those aspects of Sikhi which you understand and value. Consider, that you can't give hair away to someone who has lost it. It's Guruji's hukam why someone gets disease and loses hair. You may give a wig material to cover up the baldness, but never replace the hair. All you have done is devalue the hair of your own head which Waheguru has placed there for a spiritual purpose. You have taken living kes, and degraded it into a dead wig material for cosmetic coverup of a defect you can't remove. To create a defect (cut hairs) does not repair a defect (bald head).

Did you ever know the purpose of the hair and why it should not be removed?

Hair holds energy/conducts an electrical charge.
http://www.geocities.com/gremlinlost/regstat.jpg

The human head at birth has an opening/fontanel at the area of the crown chakra, or dasam duaar 10th door. (Human body has 2 eyes, 2 ears, 2 nostrils, 1 mouth, 1 rectum, and 1 urethra. These are doors/openings corresponding to the sense perceptions of the body and are servants of the mind. Example, our actions follow our thoughts and attitudes.) The 10th door is a subtle channel, because the human skull physically seals, but only the mind retains ability to perceive beyond physical boundaries. Mind is the door of spiritual perception.
http://www.aafp.org/afp/20030615/2547_f2.gif

It is in the place that a Sikh ties a jura, a topknot of hair, which is to place a subtle energy seal around the opening of the mind/brain. If you don't have long kes, you can't wrap the energy transmitters/hairs around the traditional gate of the mind. So you lose your spiritual seal. You don't protect the subtle opening from unseen influences.

Consider Backmasking in the music industry as a kind of maya-induced influence on people's unconscious thoughts with manmukh messages. Do you see how a spiritual seal on the mind and a spiritual practice can protect from things that drag you down? Alone the kangha, the keski, the kes are meaningless. You have to keep Gursikhi rehit/jap Naam to actually initiate the spiritual evolution.
Stairway to Heaven Backwards <--what kind of messages are being put into the mind?

"In order to keep the kesh clean a wooden kangha( Sikh Comb ) is to be kept in the hair. According to scientific research keeping a wooden kangha in your hair reduces the level of static energy building up. A metal or ivory comb is not to be used as a substitute." -Damdami Taksali

kMGw donauN vkq kr, pwg cunih kr bWDeI ]
dwqn nIq kryie nw duK pwvy lwl jI ]
"Comb the hair twice a day, covering it with turban that is to be tied from fresh (ie. no folds already put in it). Teeth cleansed with a daatan daily (brushed if this is not possible) – thus ill health will be avoided Lal ji."
(Tankhanama Bhai Nand Lal ji)

The wooden kangha is like a grounding for the electrical static build up of energy in the hairs. And to comb kes twice a day discharges static. It has a yogic purpose as far as subtle energies.
http://212.227.92.102/img/16266/pd740645_s.jpg

Hair is like an antenna. It picks up energy or vibration. But, you have to receive Gurmantara from Panj Piare when you take amrit in order to have a means of raising the bodies energy level during Naam Simran. Japping Naam, especially through Naam drirh puts the energy of Naam into the kes. And by wearing a jura, a kangha, and insulating kes with a cloth keski, you have basically created a kind of wire. To wrap the Naam vibration concentrated in the kes over the dasam duaar/opening of the mind/brain and highest spiritual center you protect your mind from worldly influences and highly focus/concentrate the energies on thought of Waheguru. Consider that human beings are the only animal with very long hair that grows on the head...right where the brain is. Human beings are the only creature with the powerful brain and mind. This hair is an antenna of the spine and brain. It is part of the gift of Divine potential of human body. Cut hair cuts off a subtle connection to your fullest potential. Hair is like a lightning rod, it can attract lightning. It can attract the Divine Presence. It is an energy storehouse is sealed in keski/dastaar and not dissipated.

rihq ipAwrI muJ ko isK ipAwrw nwih ]
"I love a Sikh’s disciplined way of life, not the Sikh."

The Rehat Maryada is our way of life or our code of conduct. The Guru’s taught us to be imbued with the love of God to such an extent that we are forever a sacrifice to him. This is what Maryada means to die (Mar) or mould oneself to the teachings of his/her Guru, the dying aspect is in the killing of ones ego and selfishness and being attuned with the teachings of the Guru and not being a slave to the mind.​

The Way of Life described is very hard indeed to practice in a world full of deceit, illusion (maya) and temptation. But this is the challenge of being a Sikh, you will always stand out in a crowd due to the handsome/beautiful attire the Guru has blessed upon us with the Five Kakkars and the distinct physical appearance of a Sikh. ​

The Rehat Maryada is a guide which if practiced will give us forever lasting peace, both in this world and the nether. We should accept the eternal truths described and learn from the experiences of our forefathers and not have to make these mistakes ourselves. We should forever be taking steps towards our goal of life which is to become one with Vaheguru – our wonderful dispeller of darkness and fountain of knowledge. The Rehat Maryada loads us with the knowledge to attain forever bliss and happiness.​

We are all at different stages of development but we must not forget we are children of the same Father and Mother, we have a common heritage and lineage in the Khalsa. ​

http://www.damdamitaksal.com/lit_rehat.htm​

​

What happened to this precious person so eager to learn authentic, spiritually charged Gursikhi practice? What went wrong veerji?​

Waheguru Ji Ki Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!​

So i converted to sikhi 7 months ago, and as a new convert i often want to cath up or at least try to leave to best of my abilty the sikhi way of life. About a month ago, i finally got a few of the 5 k's (Kanga, Kara and Kirpan) from a fellow singh that lived in cali. anyways, soon after i started wearing them, i had to surrender them cause my mom who was already very opposed to me becoming a sikh did not allow them to be in the house. This is off the main point, however, jsut a little Background.​

I started wearing the 5 k's even though i didnt have the other one and no dastarr. I have only been sikhi for only several months now, and i have a question:​

"Is is proper and right for me to wear soem of the 5 k's even if i have not taken amrit?"​

i feel that i am not quite ready to be initiated into the khalsa brotherhood, even though i have given up eating meat, watching TV, and stopped numerous other bad habits. I think i need more time to learn punjabi and pray more to Guru Ji. You could say that is another question.​

Since i am fairly new, i do not understand everything, so bear with me and correct me if i make a mistake.

-khalsa Starr/Lionchild 05-20-2005, 09:43 PM ​

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[simpy]

Respected Saadh Sangat Ji,

this may not be the correct placement of my view on Surrender, i noticed something in the above disscussions so i am posting it here anyways:

Surrender has to be infront of GURU/WAHEGURU not infront of MAYA

1st Pauri Japji Sahib-
- ikv sicAwrw hoeIAY ikv kUVY qutY pwil ]
hukim rjweI clxw nwnk iliKAw nwil ]

Living God's Will, Living the Truth Guru Ji is teaching us; this is what the surrender means.......

LIVING Waheguru's Will, not my will......
LIVING GURU's WORD, not my word.....

this ME, MINE, I has to die, has to wither away, in a Sikh's life there is no place for this. Oh jo kare- waheguru di rajaa ch karey.....
- pihlw mrxu kbUil jIvx kI Cif Aws ]
hohu sBnw kI ryxukw qau Awau hmwrY pwis ]

This World is His Creation. He is ALL. Jo Jo Deesay Tera Roop


when we start following Guru Ji in word and deed, the rest of the world- Mayavee Sansaar, what happens to that, they know who are enjoying this bliss, UNEXPLAINABLE AANAND ......

forgive me please

 

[Parma]

I think this dicussion could be used to answer the debate on who is sikh youth? Simply who is a sikh? Go on everyone thinks they know best!!!!! When it is only god who really knows! To be pure mind body and soul. This is the person that can call themselves the sikh. Yet is there anyone who can really state that they are!! You can say you are only god can prove it. No one can project into anyones mind. Are your thoughts pure? No one knows what a person has subjected there body too. Is your body pure? No one knows how you are? Is your soul pure. Only god can really answer that one. You might think you are. Only until you tested or put into situations can you determine what you really are.. How can I call myself clever if I have never had an oppertunity to prove it. How can a man call himself strong if there is no way he can prove it. There is no way of knowing what you are until you are in the process of this life. I am a though Sikh as the word is stated learning discple constantly learning constantly trying to improve.