Who Does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Address Most?

[Harry Haller]

Prakashiji

You get me all excited and ready, and then come all over all coy and distant when the time comes to play!

neither of your last two posts make much sense, its almost like you can make such perfect sense one moment and then make no sense at all the next.

However in the history of posts that make no sense, the last two really take the biscuit.

I would be really grateful if you could just say, in a short sentence , what the difference is between the two,

Thanking you in advance

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

HARRY HALLAR Ji,
In fact in my last posts I was getting incomplete message posted for reasons unknown so I could not complete the message.Although I tried to edit but failed to do so.
I have no problem in clarifying this if you are really interested.

I was trying to give you the message that now you can understand the word GuRoo as <GuRu.GuRu>.
In this GuRu is a Single word where as GuRoo represents a pair of this Single word.
How the word GuRoo is for a pair it is because of its grammar.(I dont know whether you are familiar with this type of grammar of word or not).This should certainly be a surprise for anyone to see this.But this is the fact from the grammar of the words of the script of SGGS .
Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[mandemeet]

"quote:

What I am trying to say is that Ram, Krishna, Hari have been worshipped by Bhagats and Gurus from all periods of time from 1200s-1600s and these are referring to their Jyot and their form, simultaneously. This is key. They are referring to e.g. the Son of Dasrath and God in the same breath. Their belief is that Ram Chandra is God. That Krishna is God.

The authors of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji worship: Baikunth ke Vasi (Dweller of Vaikunth - Vishnu), Kamlapati (Husband of Kamla/Lakshmi - Vishnu), Chaturbhuj (Four-armed - Vishnu is always depicted with four arms, even though he is said to have thousands), Murli Manohar (Flute player - Krishna), Raja Ram (King Ram), Raghuvansh (Descendent of Raghu - King Ram), Raghunath (Leader of Raghus' descendents - King Ram), NarSingh/Narhar (Vishnu's Man-lion incarnation), Krishna Murare (Krishna the Slayer of demon Mura), Gopi Nath (Master of the Gopis, village girls - Krishna) ... I could go on... these are referring to Vishnu and his incarnations, God and his incarnations, specifically. These names cannot be referring to anything else. The authors of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji worship the One as these incarnations, ie, through their Naam ( quote by Bhagat Singh.


Respected Bhagat Singh ji
You have distorted the Gurbani to support your own thinking just because you couldn’t understand why those names are referred to. Just for your information, this is what Guru Nanak thinks about Ram Chandra ji and Krishan ji:
953-954 Sri Guru Granth Sahib
ਰੋਵੈ ਰਾਮੁ ਨਿਕਾਲਾ ਭਇਆ ॥
Rovai rām nikālā bẖa▫i▫ā.
Rama wept when he was exiled,
ਨਿਕਾਲਾ = ਦੇਸ-ਨਿਕਾਲਾ।
ਰਾਮ ਜੀ ਭੀ ਰੋਏ, ਜਦੋਂ ਰਾਮ (ਜੀ) ਨੂੰ ਦੇਸ-ਨਿਕਾਲਾ ਮਿਲਿਆ ……

A person who feels bad on such occasion, how he should be worshiped as God; don’t you know that Gurbani says one who becomes one with Akalpurakh takes good or bad alike?
ਰੋਵਹਿ ਪਾਂਡਵ ਭਏ ਮਜੂਰ ॥
Rovėh pāʼndav bẖa▫e majūr.
Became servants and wailed the Pandwas,
xxx
(ਪੰਜੇ) ਪਾਂਡੋ ਜਦੋਂ (ਵੈਰਾਟ ਰਾਜੇ ਦੇ) ਮਜ਼ੂਰ ਬਣੇ ਤਾਂ ਰੋਏ,

ਜਿਨ ਕੈ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਰਹਤ ਹਦੂਰਿ ॥
Jin kai su▫āmī rahaṯ haḏūr.
whose Master lived with them.
ਸੁਆਮੀ = ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਜੀ।
(ਭਾਵੇਂ ਕਿ) ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ (ਪਾਂਡਵਾਂ) ਦੇ ਪਾਸ ਹੀ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਜੀ ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਸਨ (ਭਾਵ, ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦਾ ਪੱਖ ਕਰਦੇ ਸਨ
Krishan ji couldn’t help Pandav though people called him Swami (Master/God), isn't it sarcastic ?

WHO DOESN’T CRY FOR SUCH THINGS?
ਮੰਨੇ ਨਾਉ ਸੋਈ ਜਿਣਿ ਜਾਇ ॥
Manne nā▫o so▫ī jiṇ jā▫e.
He, who believes in the Name, becomes victorious.
ਜਿਣਿ = ਜਿੱਤ ਕੇ।
ਜੋ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਨੂੰ ਮੰਨਦਾ ਹੈ (ਭਾਵ, ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਮਨ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਵਿਚ ਪਤੀਜਦਾ ਹੈ) ਉਹ (ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਜ਼ੀ) ਜਿੱਤ ਕੇ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ,

ਅਉਰੀ ਕਰਮ ਨ ਲੇਖੈ ਲਾਇ ॥੧॥
A▫urī karam na lekẖai lā▫e. ||1||
No other deed is of any account.
ਅਉਰੀ = ਹੋਰ ॥੧॥
('ਨਾਮ' ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ) ਕੋਈ ਹੋਰ ਕੰਮ (ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਜ਼ੀ ਜਿੱਤਣ ਲਈ) ਸਫਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੁੰਦਾ ॥੧
Guru Nanak is all for All Pervading Akalpurakh.


ON Krishan, 470 Sri Guru Granth Sahib:
ਜੁਜ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਰਿ ਛਲੀ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲਿ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ ਜਾਦਮੁ ਭਇਆ ॥
Juj mėh jor cẖẖalī cẖanḏrāval kānĥkrisan jāḏam bẖa▫i▫ā.
In the time of Yujar Veda, Kan Krishan of Yadva tribe seduced Chandrawli by force.
ਜੋਰਿ = ਜ਼ੋਰ ਨਾਲ, ਧੱਕੇ ਨਾਲ। ਜਾਦਮੁ = 'ਜਦੁ' ਕੁਲ ਵਿਚ ਪੈਦਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ।
ਯਜੁਰ ਵੇਦ (ਵਿਚ ਭਾਵ, ਦੁਆਪਰ ਵਿਚ) ਜਗਤ ਦੇ ਮਾਲਕ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਾਂਵਲ 'ਜਾਦਮੁ' ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਪਰਸਿੱਧ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ, ਜਿਸ ਨੇ ਜ਼ੋਰ ਨਾਲ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲੀ ਨੂੰ ਛਲ ਲਿਆਂਦਾ,

ਪਾਰਜਾਤੁ ਗੋਪੀ ਲੈ ਆਇਆ ਬਿੰਦ੍ਰਾਬਨ ਮਹਿ ਰੰਗੁ ਕੀਆ ॥
Pārjāṯ gopī lai ā▫i▫ā binḏrāban mėh rang kī▫ā.
He brought the elysian tree for his milk-maid and revelled in Bindraban.
ਪਾਰਜਾਤੁ = ਇੰਦਰ ਦੇ ਬਾਗ਼ 'ਨੰਦਨ' ਵਿਚ ਪੰਜ ਸ੍ਰੇਸ਼ਟ ਰੁੱਖਾਂ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਇਕ ਦਾ ਨਾਉਂ 'ਪਾਰਜਾਤ' ਹੈ। ਜਦੋਂ ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਨੇ ਰਲ ਕੇ ਸਮੁੰਦਰ ਨੂੰ ਰਿੜਕਿਆ ਸੀ, ਤਦੋਂ ਉਸ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਚੌਦਾਂ ਰਤਨ ਨਿਕਲੇ, ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਇਕ 'ਪਾਰਜਾਤ' ਰੁੱਖ ਸੀ। ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਇਹ ਰੁੱਖ ਉਸ ਬਾਗ਼ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਪੁੱਟ ਕੇ ਲੈ ਆਂਦਾ ਤੇ ਆਪਣੀ ਪਿਆਰੀ 'ਸਤ੍ਯਭਾਮਾ' ਦੇ ਬਾਗ਼ ਵਿਚ ਲਾ ਦਿੱਤਾ। ਇਹ 'ਸਤ੍ਯਭਾਮਾ' ਰਾਜਾ ਸ਼ਤ੍ਰਾਜਿਤ ਦੀ ਧੀ ਤੇ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਪਿਆਰੀ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਸੀ। ਇੰਦਰ ਦੇ ਬਾਗ਼ 'ਨੰਦਨ' ਵਿਚ ਪੰਜ ਵਧੀਆ ਜਾਤੀ ਦੇ ਰੁੱਖ ਦੱਸੇ ਗਏ ਹਨ। ਉਹ ਪੰਜੇ ਰੁੱਖ ਇਹ ਹਨ: ਮੰਦਾਰ, ਪਾਰਜਾਤ, ਸੰਤਾਨ, ਕਲਪ-ਰੁੱਖ ਤੇ ਹਰੀ ਚੰਦਨ। ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲਿ = ਇਕ ਗੋਪੀ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸੀ। ਇਹ ਰਾਧਾ ਦੀ ਚਚੇਰੀ ਭੈਣ ਸੀ, ਰਾਧਾ ਦੇ ਪਿਤਾ ਵ੍ਰਿਖਭਾਨ ਦੇ ਜੇਠੇ ਭਰਾ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਭਾਨ ਦੀ ਇਹ ਲੜਕੀ ਸੀ। ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲੀ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਨਾਲ ਵਿਆਹੀ ਗਈ ਸੀ, ਜੋ ਕਰਲਾ ਨਾਮਕ ਪਿੰਡ ਦਾ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਸੀ। ਗੋਪੀ = 'ਸਤ੍ਯਭਾਮਾ' ਗੋਪੀ ਦੇ ਵਾਸਤੇ।
ਜਿਸ ਨੇ ਆਪਣੀ ਗੋਪੀ (ਸਤ੍ਯਭਾਮਾ) ਦੀ ਖ਼ਾਤਰ ਪਾਰਜਾਤ ਰੁੱਖ (ਇੰਦਰ ਦੇ ਬਾਗ਼ ਵਿਚੋਂ) ਲੈ ਆਂਦਾ ਅਤੇ ਜਿਸ ਨੇ ਬਿੰਦ੍ਰਾਬਨ ਵਿਚ ਕੌਤਕ ਵਰਤਾਇਆ


Gur Nanak dev ji is describing treachery of Krishan ji, why? To tell that, such a way, the Creator is not realized; then how the Creator is realized, in the end Guru Nanak says:
ਭਾਉ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਨੀਚੁ ਸਦਾਏ ॥
Bẖā▫o bẖagaṯ kar nīcẖ saḏā▫e.
When a person cherishs love and meditation of God and calls himself lowly,
xxx
(ਪਰ) ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਜਦੋਂ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ-ਭਗਤੀ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ ਨੀਵਾਂ ਅਖਵਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ (ਭਾਵ, ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ਤੋਂ ਬਚਿਆ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ)

ਤਉ ਨਾਨਕ ਮੋਖੰਤਰੁ ਪਾਏ ॥੨॥
Ŧa▫o Nānak mokẖanṯar pā▫e. ||2||
it is then, O Nanak that he obtains salvation.
xxx॥੨॥
ਤਦੋਂ ਉਹ ਮੁਕਤੀ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ ॥੨

NOT BY TAKING OTHER”S WOMAN WITH TRICKS.
You need to understand the contexts and the names used for the Creator before judging Bhagtas and the Gurus and saying they worshiped Ram Chandra ji and Krishn ji. All miracles kinds of deeds are credited to only All Pervading Akalpurakh not those who were bearing those names

Regards
Mandemeet

 

[mandemeet]

"quote:

What I am trying to say is that Ram, Krishna, Hari have been worshipped by Bhagats and Gurus from all periods of time from 1200s-1600s and these are referring to their Jyot and their form, simultaneously. This is key. They are referring to e.g. the Son of Dasrath and God in the same breath. Their belief is that Ram Chandra is God. That Krishna is God.

The authors of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji worship: Baikunth ke Vasi (Dweller of Vaikunth - Vishnu), Kamlapati (Husband of Kamla/Lakshmi - Vishnu), Chaturbhuj (Four-armed - Vishnu is always depicted with four arms, even though he is said to have thousands), Murli Manohar (Flute player - Krishna), Raja Ram (King Ram), Raghuvansh (Descendent of Raghu - King Ram), Raghunath (Leader of Raghus' descendents - King Ram), NarSingh/Narhar (Vishnu's Man-lion incarnation), Krishna Murare (Krishna the Slayer of demon Mura), Gopi Nath (Master of the Gopis, village girls - Krishna) ... I could go on... these are referring to Vishnu and his incarnations, God and his incarnations, specifically. These names cannot be referring to anything else. The authors of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji worship the One as these incarnations, ie, through their Naam ( quote by Bhagat Singh.


Respected Bhagat Singh ji
You have distorted the Gurbani to support your own thinking just because you couldn’t understand why those names are referred to. Just for your information, this is what Guru Nanak thinks about Ram Chandra ji and Krishan ji:
953-954 Sri Guru Granth Sahib
ਰੋਵੈ ਰਾਮੁ ਨਿਕਾਲਾ ਭਇਆ ॥
Rovai rām nikālā bẖa▫i▫ā.
Rama wept when he was exiled,
ਨਿਕਾਲਾ = ਦੇਸ-ਨਿਕਾਲਾ।
ਰਾਮ ਜੀ ਭੀ ਰੋਏ, ਜਦੋਂ ਰਾਮ (ਜੀ) ਨੂੰ ਦੇਸ-ਨਿਕਾਲਾ ਮਿਲਿਆ ……

A person who feels bad on such occasion, how he should be worshiped as God; don’t you know that Gurbani says one who becomes one with Akalpurakh takes good or bad alike?
ਰੋਵਹਿ ਪਾਂਡਵ ਭਏ ਮਜੂਰ ॥
Rovėh pāʼndav bẖa▫e majūr.
Became servants and wailed the Pandwas,
xxx
(ਪੰਜੇ) ਪਾਂਡੋ ਜਦੋਂ (ਵੈਰਾਟ ਰਾਜੇ ਦੇ) ਮਜ਼ੂਰ ਬਣੇ ਤਾਂ ਰੋਏ,

ਜਿਨ ਕੈ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਰਹਤ ਹਦੂਰਿ ॥
Jin kai su▫āmī rahaṯ haḏūr.
whose Master lived with them.
ਸੁਆਮੀ = ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਜੀ।
(ਭਾਵੇਂ ਕਿ) ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ (ਪਾਂਡਵਾਂ) ਦੇ ਪਾਸ ਹੀ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਜੀ ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਸਨ (ਭਾਵ, ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦਾ ਪੱਖ ਕਰਦੇ ਸਨ
Krishan ji couldn’t help Pandav though people called him Swami (Master/God), isn't it sarcastic ?

WHO DOESN’T CRY FOR SUCH THINGS?
ਮੰਨੇ ਨਾਉ ਸੋਈ ਜਿਣਿ ਜਾਇ ॥
Manne nā▫o so▫ī jiṇ jā▫e.
He, who believes in the Name, becomes victorious.
ਜਿਣਿ = ਜਿੱਤ ਕੇ।
ਜੋ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਨੂੰ ਮੰਨਦਾ ਹੈ (ਭਾਵ, ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਮਨ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਵਿਚ ਪਤੀਜਦਾ ਹੈ) ਉਹ (ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਜ਼ੀ) ਜਿੱਤ ਕੇ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ,

ਅਉਰੀ ਕਰਮ ਨ ਲੇਖੈ ਲਾਇ ॥੧॥
A▫urī karam na lekẖai lā▫e. ||1||
No other deed is of any account.
ਅਉਰੀ = ਹੋਰ ॥੧॥
('ਨਾਮ' ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ) ਕੋਈ ਹੋਰ ਕੰਮ (ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਜ਼ੀ ਜਿੱਤਣ ਲਈ) ਸਫਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੁੰਦਾ ॥੧
Guru Nanak is all for All Pervading Akalpurakh.


ON Krishan, 470 Sri Guru Granth Sahib:
ਜੁਜ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਰਿ ਛਲੀ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲਿ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ ਜਾਦਮੁ ਭਇਆ ॥
Juj mėh jor cẖẖalī cẖanḏrāval kānĥkrisan jāḏam bẖa▫i▫ā.
In the time of Yujar Veda, Kan Krishan of Yadva tribe seduced Chandrawli by force.
ਜੋਰਿ = ਜ਼ੋਰ ਨਾਲ, ਧੱਕੇ ਨਾਲ। ਜਾਦਮੁ = 'ਜਦੁ' ਕੁਲ ਵਿਚ ਪੈਦਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ।
ਯਜੁਰ ਵੇਦ (ਵਿਚ ਭਾਵ, ਦੁਆਪਰ ਵਿਚ) ਜਗਤ ਦੇ ਮਾਲਕ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਾਂਵਲ 'ਜਾਦਮੁ' ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਪਰਸਿੱਧ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ, ਜਿਸ ਨੇ ਜ਼ੋਰ ਨਾਲ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲੀ ਨੂੰ ਛਲ ਲਿਆਂਦਾ,

ਪਾਰਜਾਤੁ ਗੋਪੀ ਲੈ ਆਇਆ ਬਿੰਦ੍ਰਾਬਨ ਮਹਿ ਰੰਗੁ ਕੀਆ ॥
Pārjāṯ gopī lai ā▫i▫ā binḏrāban mėh rang kī▫ā.
He brought the elysian tree for his milk-maid and revelled in Bindraban.
ਪਾਰਜਾਤੁ = ਇੰਦਰ ਦੇ ਬਾਗ਼ 'ਨੰਦਨ' ਵਿਚ ਪੰਜ ਸ੍ਰੇਸ਼ਟ ਰੁੱਖਾਂ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਇਕ ਦਾ ਨਾਉਂ 'ਪਾਰਜਾਤ' ਹੈ। ਜਦੋਂ ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਨੇ ਰਲ ਕੇ ਸਮੁੰਦਰ ਨੂੰ ਰਿੜਕਿਆ ਸੀ, ਤਦੋਂ ਉਸ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਚੌਦਾਂ ਰਤਨ ਨਿਕਲੇ, ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਇਕ 'ਪਾਰਜਾਤ' ਰੁੱਖ ਸੀ। ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਇਹ ਰੁੱਖ ਉਸ ਬਾਗ਼ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਪੁੱਟ ਕੇ ਲੈ ਆਂਦਾ ਤੇ ਆਪਣੀ ਪਿਆਰੀ 'ਸਤ੍ਯਭਾਮਾ' ਦੇ ਬਾਗ਼ ਵਿਚ ਲਾ ਦਿੱਤਾ। ਇਹ 'ਸਤ੍ਯਭਾਮਾ' ਰਾਜਾ ਸ਼ਤ੍ਰਾਜਿਤ ਦੀ ਧੀ ਤੇ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਪਿਆਰੀ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਸੀ। ਇੰਦਰ ਦੇ ਬਾਗ਼ 'ਨੰਦਨ' ਵਿਚ ਪੰਜ ਵਧੀਆ ਜਾਤੀ ਦੇ ਰੁੱਖ ਦੱਸੇ ਗਏ ਹਨ। ਉਹ ਪੰਜੇ ਰੁੱਖ ਇਹ ਹਨ: ਮੰਦਾਰ, ਪਾਰਜਾਤ, ਸੰਤਾਨ, ਕਲਪ-ਰੁੱਖ ਤੇ ਹਰੀ ਚੰਦਨ। ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲਿ = ਇਕ ਗੋਪੀ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸੀ। ਇਹ ਰਾਧਾ ਦੀ ਚਚੇਰੀ ਭੈਣ ਸੀ, ਰਾਧਾ ਦੇ ਪਿਤਾ ਵ੍ਰਿਖਭਾਨ ਦੇ ਜੇਠੇ ਭਰਾ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਭਾਨ ਦੀ ਇਹ ਲੜਕੀ ਸੀ। ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲੀ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਨਾਲ ਵਿਆਹੀ ਗਈ ਸੀ, ਜੋ ਕਰਲਾ ਨਾਮਕ ਪਿੰਡ ਦਾ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਸੀ। ਗੋਪੀ = 'ਸਤ੍ਯਭਾਮਾ' ਗੋਪੀ ਦੇ ਵਾਸਤੇ।
ਜਿਸ ਨੇ ਆਪਣੀ ਗੋਪੀ (ਸਤ੍ਯਭਾਮਾ) ਦੀ ਖ਼ਾਤਰ ਪਾਰਜਾਤ ਰੁੱਖ (ਇੰਦਰ ਦੇ ਬਾਗ਼ ਵਿਚੋਂ) ਲੈ ਆਂਦਾ ਅਤੇ ਜਿਸ ਨੇ ਬਿੰਦ੍ਰਾਬਨ ਵਿਚ ਕੌਤਕ ਵਰਤਾਇਆ


Gur Nanak dev ji is describing treachery of Krishan ji, why? To tell that, such a way, the Creator is not realized; then how the Creator is realized, in the end Guru Nanak says:
ਭਾਉ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਨੀਚੁ ਸਦਾਏ ॥
Bẖā▫o bẖagaṯ kar nīcẖ saḏā▫e.
When a person cherishs love and meditation of God and calls himself lowly,
xxx
(ਪਰ) ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਜਦੋਂ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ-ਭਗਤੀ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ ਨੀਵਾਂ ਅਖਵਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ (ਭਾਵ, ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ਤੋਂ ਬਚਿਆ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ)

ਤਉ ਨਾਨਕ ਮੋਖੰਤਰੁ ਪਾਏ ॥੨॥
Ŧa▫o Nānak mokẖanṯar pā▫e. ||2||
it is then, O Nanak that he obtains salvation.
xxx॥੨॥
ਤਦੋਂ ਉਹ ਮੁਕਤੀ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ ॥੨

NOT BY TAKING OTHER”S WOMAN WITH TRICKS.
You need to understand the contexts and the names used for the Creator before judging Bhagtas and the Gurus and saying they worshiped Ram Chandra ji and Krishn ji. All miracles kinds of deeds are credited to only All Pervading Akalpurakh not those who were bearing those names

Regards
Mandemeet

 

[Ambarsaria]

Mandemeet ji thanks for your post. Welcome to spn as I believe you recently joined.

Great research, effort and to the point. Please keep up the good work and sharing so we all learn.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Bhagat kabir Ji so clearly and transparently declares that all the public cry our..Raam Raam raam....BUT dear friends..there is a very clear and HUGE difference between what the "public" cry out Raam Raam and MY RAAM....One Raam is a Human..a person a... a Dramabaaz...an ACTOR...the OTHER Raam is the All Pervading CREATOR.

DAY..and NIGHT....PITCH Black...Snow WHITE...yet we insist on saying..NO NO..Bhagat Kabir Ji..beleieves in the SAME Raam that was Son of dasrath..husband of Sita..destroyer of Raavna and Lanka..Army commander of hanumans army of Monkeys etc etc etc..and whose Temples.and Mandirs dot the Indian landscape..in whose name the Historic babari masjid was destroyed...that is the Raam bhagats mention....

Is it only self deception..or deception on purpose...covering ones-self in a thick blanket may begin to look like "Night" under the Blazing Mid day SUN...but no matter how many Thick Blankets we THROW UP into the SKY to make sure .."everyone" also begins to "feel night" at 12 NOON..is a difficult task but we continue to persevere...bravo.

The BHAGATS whose Gurbani stands chosen for inclsuion in the SGGS....the Gurus..the Dooms, the SHEIKHS, each and every single contributor of SGGS hold Fast to the Very SAME PRINCIPLE...The CREATOR that is MENTIONED in the MOOL MANTAR is the ONE and ONLY Creator and NO ONE ELSE..not Raam..not Krishan..not vishnu..not kali ammah..not vaishnu devi..not sheran valli..not...not...not...not...not...not...NOT. period. THIS ONE and ONLY CREATOR...EK - OANGKAAR NEVER comes to EARTH in any form/avtaar/whatever and Never has. Period. But if one wants to bury ones self under a thick carpet and cry its night at 12 noon..you are most welcome...carry on...BUT DONT place those carpets on the Bhagats or the Gurus becasue they TORE those "carpets" to SHREDS ....Centuries ago.. even the the "dust" has long gone.......let alone the shreds...
Thank you Madenmeet Ji.

 

[Luckysingh]

Luckyji

There is an absolute difference between WaheGuru/Prabh, ie Creator, and Guru, ie Teacher.

I have no problem accepting Vishnu/Brahma/Ram as Teachers, spiritual Gurus, but they are not Creator, they are not the ultimate truth, without form, without birth, without death, they do not tick the boxes that fit in with how Creator is described.

The line itself is

The guru is Shiva, guru is Vishnu and Brahma, guru is Parvati and Lakhshmi.

This confirms that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is interested only in Creator, not in having a monopoly on the path to enlightenment.

The constant reference to this line, in my view, in the wrong context, only furthers the confusion and strengthens the Vedic interference in Sikhism

Regards

To ALL Jios
OK, There is no monoply on the path and I'm not sure that some fully understand the reasons why Guru Nanak started to mention the vedic gods. We can't just disregard it as vedic interference (as Harryji states) because we want no association with it.
We have to understand that the vedic quotes by the gurus are there for a reason.-At the times, people lived by these beliefs so much- so they had to be addressed. -They were addressed but they were not disregarded as myths.

Bottom line- I'll get straight to the point of why-

All hindu gods each have their own role and association in the religion. For instance, Vishnu is god of protection and preservation, Rama is the incarnation of Vishnu. Brahma =the creator, Shiva=destroyer, Laxmi=goddess of wealth and prosperity, Vishnu and Laxmi are a couple that always reincarnate together- so Rama and Sita were infact reincarnations of Vishnu and Laxmi.... and so on......-many incarnations for all of them....

Now as far as I know, these beliefs in the deities have been there for a long time and will always be there for the hindu faith.

All references in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib inform us that ALL these gods are ONE. Thats it, we don't need a separate lord for wealth, a separate for creation, one for protection, one for strength.. etc...etc.....etc...
BUT, all of these godly values come from the ONE formless, eternal creator.
I also deduce that there is NO Vishnu reincarnatining umpteen times as a different God everytime. BUT- It is Just the ONE creator that can take as many and whatever forms that we see. There is no Vishnu and Laxmi coming in the form of Ram and Sita
BUT- just the ONE all along.

Quite simply, there is ONE creator, lord, Waheguru, God, Ram, Allah..Up there and all around...AND there is Human MANKIND-down here -FULL STOP-
NO inbetween gods, sons or daughters of god, or gods and goddesses chosen by God for specific purposes, nothing else except ALL of us here as equals and the creator above us all. There was of course our Guru's that can be regarded as above us on the scale- BUT even they made it clear that we were NOT to worship them but to only worship the ONE true Lord.

Using ram ram, hari hari, satnaam or waheguru makes NO difference, if we are referring to the ONE. He doesn't mind who or what we call him.

Waheguru

 

[Harry Haller]

I also deduce that there is NO Vishnu reincarnatining umpteen times as a different God everytime. BUT- It is Just the ONE creator that can take as many and whatever forms that we see.

Luckyji,

You are trying to compromise, and I respect that, but Creator has no physical form, does not take a physical form.

My own view is that an acceptance that Jesus, Vishnu et al were Guru's in their own way, but were not Creator in a physical manifestation, as such could not exist, given what we know about Creator and Sikhism

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

To ALL Jios
OK, There is no monoply on the path and I'm not sure that some fully understand the reasons why Guru Nanak started to mention the vedic gods. We can't just disregard it as vedic interference (as Harryji states) because we want no association with it.
We have to understand that the vedic quotes by the gurus are there for a reason.-At the times, people lived by these beliefs so much- so they had to be addressed. -They were addressed but they were not disregarded as myths.

Bottom line- I'll get straight to the point of why-

All hindu gods each have their own role and association in the religion. For instance, Vishnu is god of protection and preservation, Rama is the incarnation of Vishnu. Brahma =the creator, Shiva=destroyer, Laxmi=goddess of wealth and prosperity, Vishnu and Laxmi are a couple that always reincarnate together- so Rama and Sita were infact reincarnations of Vishnu and Laxmi.... and so on......-many incarnations for all of them....

Now as far as I know, these beliefs in the deities have been there for a long time and will always be there for the hindu faith.

All references in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib inform us that ALL these gods are ONE. Thats it, we don't need a separate lord for wealth, a separate for creation, one for protection, one for strength.. etc...etc.....etc...
BUT, all of these godly values come from the ONE formless, eternal creator.
I also deduce that there is NO Vishnu reincarnatining umpteen times as a different God everytime. BUT- It is Just the ONE creator that can take as many and whatever forms that we see. There is no Vishnu and Laxmi coming in the form of Ram and Sita
BUT- just the ONE all along.

Quite simply, there is ONE creator, lord, Waheguru, God, Ram, Allah..Up there and all around...AND there is Human MANKIND-down here -FULL STOP-
NO inbetween gods, sons or daughters of god, or gods and goddesses chosen by God for specific purposes, nothing else except ALL of us here as equals and the creator above us all. There was of course our Guru's that can be regarded as above us on the scale- BUT even they made it clear that we were NOT to worship them but to only worship the ONE true Lord.

Using ram ram, hari hari, satnaam or waheguru makes NO difference, if we are referring to the ONE. He doesn't mind who or what we call him.

Waheguru

If we give a thinking to a quote from SGGS ji as

"RAM NAAM(U) Uru Main Gayeo JAKE SUM NAHEE KOE
JIH SIMRAT SANKAT MITE DARS TUHAO HOE"

Pp1429 SGGSji

What is this RAM NAAMu GuRu ji is telling about?There is Nothing equal to this RAM NAAMu and this RAM NAAMu iserves two purposes simultaneously as All ill barriers of life are removed and you get the DARSAN of Creator too.
This RAM NAAMu is ONLY ONE and different from all other NAAM.
This is important to understand.
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[BhagatSingh]

Time for some heavy-lifting and cognitive dissonance. Ready?

Some basic theology of Sikhism:
1. There is the Ultimate Reality, it is both Sargun (form) and Nirgun (formless) - by what name is this referred to in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

Brahmn (not Brahma) Parbrahmn, Parmesar, Bhagwan, Ishwar, Akal/Aad Purakh, Hari (Vishnu/Krishna Murare) and Ram Chandra. The latter two being the most prominent of all names of the Ultimate Reality. So the mythology that is revered in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is that of Vishnu, as he is considered the Ultimate Reality. Now since Vishnu is the Ultimate Reality. All of the below are actually referring to the Ultimate Reality, Vishnu.

Kamla/Lakshmi - Vishnu), Chaturbhuj (Four-armed - Vishnu is always depicted with four arms, even though he is said to have thousands), Murli Manohar (Flute player - Krishna), Raja Ram (King Ram), Raghuvansh (Descendent of Raghu - King Ram), Raghunath (Leader of Raghus' descendents - King Ram), NarSingh/Narhar (Vishnu's Man-lion incarnation), Krishna Murare (Krishna the Slayer of demon Mura), Gopi Nath (Master of the Gopis, village girls - Krishna)

They are not a coincidence or some deceptive tactic employed to persuade Hindus. This is the real deal! and it is about to become very clear in the quotes below.

2. Maya is the power of this Ultimate Reality, under whose influence the world operates. You cannot escape her. Maya is that force by which the Ultimate Reality manifests itself. Write this down.

From this Ultimate Reality arises the creator - Brahma, sustainer - also called Vishnu and destroyer - Mahadev.
Page 908, Line 1
ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਇਕ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਾਰੀ ॥੧੨॥
ब्रहमा बिसनु महेस इक मूरति आपे करता कारी ॥१२॥
Barahmā bisan mahes ik mūraṯ āpe karṯā kārī. ||12||
Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are manifestations of the One God. He Himself is the Doer of deeds. ||12||
When the Ultimate Reality manifests, it does so as three Gunas/qualities - Rajas, Sattva and Tamas. Thus these three aspects of the Ultimate Reality are under the influence of these Gunas/qualities.

BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
I would like to see any such quote from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji where VISHNU is stated to be PRABHu or WAHi GuRoo as VISHNu.This should make the point more clear.And the message from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is more authentic rather than what is written in other sources.Our final authority is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Prakash.S.Bagga

I agree whole heartedly. Bhai Gurdas ji's Vaars were titled "the key to understanding Gurbani and it's context" by Guru Arjan Dev ji. But if that is not satisfactory we can simply stick to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

ਅਚੁਤ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥
अचुत पारब्रहम परमेसुर अंतरजामी ॥
Acẖuṯ pārbarahm parmesur anṯarjāmī.
The Supreme Lord God is imperishable, the Transcendent Lord, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts.

ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਦਾਮੋਦਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥
मधुसूदन दामोदर सुआमी ॥
Maḏẖusūḏan ḏāmoḏar su▫āmī.
Madhusudan - Krishna
He is the Slayer of demons, our Supreme Lord and Master.

ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੀ ਮੁਰਲੀ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥੧॥
रिखीकेस गोवरधन धारी मुरली मनोहर हरि रंगा ॥१॥
Rikẖīkes govarḏẖan ḏẖārī murlī manohar har rangā. ||1||
(Krishna lifts Govardhan in his mythology. He is the Murli Manohar, the flute player.)
The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute. ||1||

ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
मोहन माधव क्रिस्न मुरारे ॥
Mohan māḏẖav krisan murāre.
Mohan (Krishna), Madhav (Krishna), Krishna Murare
The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, Krishna, the Enemy of ego.

ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥
जगदीसुर हरि जीउ असुर संघारे ॥
Jagḏīsur har jī▫o asur sangẖāre.
The Lord of the Universe, the Dear Lord, the Destroyer of demons.

ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਵਾਸੀ ਹੈ ਸੰਗਾ ॥੨॥
जगजीवन अबिनासी ठाकुर घट घट वासी है संगा ॥२॥
Jagjīvan abẖināsī ṯẖākur gẖat gẖat vāsī hai sangā. ||2||
The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Lord and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us. ||2||

ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
धरणीधर ईस नरसिंघ नाराइण ॥
Ḏẖarṇīḏẖar īs narsingẖ nārā▫iṇ.
The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.

ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥
दाड़ा अग्रे प्रिथमि धराइण ॥
Ḏāṛā agre paritham ḏẖarā▫iṇ.
The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth.

ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥
बावन रूपु कीआ तुधु करते सभ ही सेती है चंगा ॥३॥
Bāvan rūp kī▫ā ṯuḏẖ karṯe sabẖ hī seṯī hai cẖanga. ||3||
O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥
स्री रामचंद जिसु रूपु न रेखिआ ॥
Sarī rāmcẖanḏ jis rūp na rekẖ▫i▫ā.
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.

ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥
बनवाली चक्रपाणि दरसि अनूपिआ ॥
Banvālī cẖakarpāṇ ḏaras anūpi▫ā.
Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.

ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥
सहस नेत्र मूरति है सहसा इकु दाता सभ है मंगा ॥४॥
Sahas neṯar mūraṯ hai sahsā ik ḏāṯā sabẖ hai mangā. ||4||
You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4||

ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥
भगति वछलु अनाथह नाथे ॥
Bẖagaṯ vacẖẖal anāthah nāthe.
You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.

ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥
गोपी नाथु सगल है साथे ॥
Gopī nāth sagal hai sāthe.
The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.

ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥
बासुदेव निरंजन दाते बरनि न साकउ गुण अंगा ॥५॥
Bāsuḏev niranjan ḏāṯe baran na sāka▫o guṇ angā. ||5||
O Lord, Immaculate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5||

ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
मुकंद मनोहर लखमी नाराइण ॥
Mukanḏ manohar lakẖmī nārā▫iṇ.
Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥
द्रोपती लजा निवारि उधारण ॥
Ḏaropaṯī lajā nivār uḏẖāraṇ.
Savior of Dropadi's honor. (Krishna)

ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥
कमलाकंत करहि कंतूहल अनद बिनोदी निहसंगा ॥६॥
Kamlākanṯ karahi kanṯūhal anaḏ binoḏī nihsangā. ||6||
Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6||

ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥
अमोघ दरसन आजूनी स्मभउ ॥
Amogẖ ḏarsan ājūnī sambẖa▫o.
The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent.
Vishnu is Ajuni, who knew?

ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥
अकाल मूरति जिसु कदे नाही खउ ॥
Akāl mūraṯ jis kaḏe nāhī kẖa▫o.
His form is undying; it is never destroyed.

ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਲਗਾ ॥੭॥
अबिनासी अबिगत अगोचर सभु किछु तुझ ही है लगा ॥७॥
Abẖināsī abigaṯ agocẖar sabẖ kicẖẖ ṯujẖ hī hai lagā. ||7||
O imperishable, eternal, unfathomable Lord, everything is attached to You. ||7||

ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥
स्रीरंग बैकुंठ के वासी ॥
Sarīrang baikunṯẖ ke vāsī.
The Lover of greatness, who dwells in heaven.

ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥
मछु कछु कूरमु आगिआ अउतरासी ॥
Macẖẖ kacẖẖ kūram āgi▫ā a▫uṯrāsī.
By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.

ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥
केसव चलत करहि निराले कीता लोड़हि सो होइगा ॥८॥
Kesav cẖalaṯ karahi nirāle kīṯā loṛėh so ho▫igā. ||8||
The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes to pass. ||8||

ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
निराहारी निरवैरु समाइआ ॥
Nirāhārī nirvair samā▫i▫ā.
He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥
धारि खेलु चतुरभुजु कहाइआ ॥
Ḏẖār kẖel cẖaṯurbẖuj kahā▫i▫ā.
He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥
सावल सुंदर रूप बणावहि बेणु सुनत सभ मोहैगा ॥९॥
Sāval sunḏar rūp baṇāvėh beṇ sunaṯ sabẖ mohaigā. ||9||
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||

ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥
बनमाला बिभूखन कमल नैन ॥
Banmālā bibẖūkẖan kamal nain.
He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥
सुंदर कुंडल मुकट बैन ॥
Sunḏar kundal mukat bain.
His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥
संख चक्र गदा है धारी महा सारथी सतसंगा ॥१०॥
Sankẖ cẖakar gaḏā hai ḏẖārī mahā sārthī saṯsangā. ||10||
He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||

ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥
पीत पीत्मबर त्रिभवण धणी ॥
Pīṯ pīṯambar ṯaribẖavaṇ ḏẖaṇī.
The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥
जगंनाथु गोपालु मुखि भणी ॥
Jagannāth gopāl mukẖ bẖaṇī.
The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.

ਸਾਰਿੰਗਧਰ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਬੀਠੁਲਾ ਮੈ ਗਣਤ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਸਰਬੰਗਾ ॥੧੧॥
सारिंगधर भगवान बीठुला मै गणत न आवै सरबंगा ॥११॥
Sāringḏẖar bẖagvān bīṯẖulā mai gaṇaṯ na āvai sarbangā. ||11||
The Archer who draws the bow, the Beloved Lord God; I cannot count all His limbs. ||11||
Page 1082



ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥
vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhi jī▫o.
Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o.

ਕਵਲ ਨੈਨ ਮਧੁਰ ਬੈਨ ਕੋਟਿ ਸੈਨ ਸੰਗ ਸੋਭ ਕਹਤ ਮਾ ਜਸੋਦ ਜਿਸਹਿ ਦਹੀ ਭਾਤੁ ਖਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
कवल नैन मधुर बैन कोटि सैन संग सोभ कहत मा जसोद जिसहि दही भातु खाहि जीउ ॥
Kaval nain maḏẖur bain kot sain sang sobẖ kahaṯ mā jasoḏ jisahi ḏahī bẖāṯ kẖāhi jī▫o.
You are lotus-eyed, with sweet speech, exalted and embellished with millions of companions. Mother Yashoda invited You as Krishna to eat the sweet rice.

ਦੇਖਿ ਰੂਪੁ ਅਤਿ ਅਨੂਪੁ ਮੋਹ ਮਹਾ ਮਗ ਭਈ ਕਿੰਕਨੀ ਸਬਦ ਝਨਤਕਾਰ ਖੇਲੁ ਪਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
देखि रूपु अति अनूपु मोह महा मग भई किंकनी सबद झनतकार खेलु पाहि जीउ ॥
Ḏekẖ rūp aṯ anūp moh mahā mag bẖa▫ī kinknī sabaḏ jẖanaṯkār kẖel pāhi jī▫o.
Gazing upon Your supremely beautiful form, and hearing the musical sounds of Your silver bells tinkling, she was intoxicated with delight.

ਕਾਲ ਕਲਮ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਹਾਥਿ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਉਨੁ ਮੇਟਿ ਸਕੈ ਈਸੁ ਬੰਮ੍ਯ੍ਯੁ ਗ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੁ ਧ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੁ ਧਰਤ ਹੀਐ ਚਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
काल कलम हुकमु हाथि कहहु कउनु मेटि सकै ईसु बम्यु ग्यानु ध्यानु धरत हीऐ चाहि जीउ ॥
Kāl kalam hukam hāth kahhu ka▫un met sakai īs bamm▫yu ga▫yān ḏẖeān ḏẖaraṯ hī▫ai cẖāhi jī▫o.
Death's pen and command are in Your hands. Tell me, who can erase it? Shiva and Brahma yearn to enshrine Your spiritual wisdom in their hearts.

ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥੬॥
सति साचु स्री निवासु आदि पुरखु सदा तुही वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥१॥६॥
Saṯ sācẖ sarī nivās āḏ purakẖ saḏā ṯuhī vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhi jī▫o. ||1||6||
You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||1||6||

ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਪਰਮ ਧਾਮ ਸੁਧ ਬੁਧ ਨਿਰੀਕਾਰ ਬੇਸੁਮਾਰ ਸਰਬਰ ਕਉ ਕਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
राम नाम परम धाम सुध बुध निरीकार बेसुमार सरबर कउ काहि जीउ ॥
Rām nām param ḏẖām suḏẖ buḏẖ nirīkār besumār sarbar ka▫o kāhi jī▫o.
You are blessed with the Lord's Name, the supreme mansion, and clear understanding. You are the Formless, Infinite Lord; who can compare to You?

ਸੁਥਰ ਚਿਤ ਭਗਤ ਹਿਤ ਭੇਖੁ ਧਰਿਓ ਹਰਨਾਖਸੁ ਹਰਿਓ ਨਖ ਬਿਦਾਰਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
सुथर चित भगत हित भेखु धरिओ हरनाखसु हरिओ नख बिदारि जीउ ॥
Suthar cẖiṯ bẖagaṯ hiṯ bẖekẖ ḏẖari▫o harnākẖas hari▫o nakẖ biḏār jī▫o.
For the sake of the pure-hearted devotee Prahlaad, You took the form of the man-lion, to tear apart and destroy Harnaakhash with your claws.

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਪਦਮ ਆਪਿ ਆਪੁ ਕੀਓ ਛਦਮ ਅਪਰੰਪਰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਲਖੈ ਕਉਨੁ ਤਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
संख चक्र गदा पदम आपि आपु कीओ छदम अपर्मपर पारब्रहम लखै कउनु ताहि जीउ ॥
Sankẖ cẖakar gaḏā paḏam āp āp kī▫o cẖẖaḏam aprampar pārbarahm lakẖai ka▫un ṯāhi jī▫o.
You are the Infinite Supreme Lord God; with your symbols of power (ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਪਦਮ - conch, chakram, mace and lotus - icons of Vishnu) , You deceived Baliraja (Ram Chandra decieves bali in order to bring Sugreve to power); who can know You?

ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥੭॥
सति साचु स्री निवासु आदि पुरखु सदा तुही वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥२॥७॥
Saṯ sācẖ sarī nivās āḏ purakẖ saḏā ṯuhī vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhi jī▫o. ||2||7||
You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||2||7||
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page 1402

Bhagat kabir Ji so clearly and transparently declares that all the public cry our..Raam Raam raam....BUT dear friends..there is a very clear and HUGE difference between what the "public" cry out Raam Raam and MY RAAM....One Raam is a Human..a person a... a Dramabaaz...an ACTOR...the OTHER Raam is the All Pervading CREATOR.

FALSE
This is simply a misunderstanding of Bhagat Kabir's shabad. Raam was never believed to be human by any of the Bhagats or Gurus. Especially in light of the shabads above. Let me remind in the words of 5th Master: "You are the Ram Chandra with no form or feature. Adorned in flowers and wielding the chakram, your form is incomparably beautiful." Raam Chandra is the Divine. He is Akal Purakh.

Let's look a this shabad and weed out of the ignorance propagated by it's popular mistranslation.

ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ ॥
कबीर राम कहन महि भेदु है ता महि एकु बिचारु ॥
Kabīr rām kahan (chant/repeat) mėh (inside) bẖeḏ (difference) hai ṯā mėh ek bicẖār.

Kabir says there is a difference in how you chant "Ram", and this is to be considered.


ਸੋਈ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਭੈ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਕਉਤਕਹਾਰ ॥੧੯੦॥
सोई रामु सभै कहहि सोई कउतकहार ॥१९०॥
So▫ī (that very) rām sabẖai (everyone) kahėh so▫ī (that very) ka▫uṯakhār (miracle workers). ||190||

The same Ram is chanted by everyone (Saints) and the same Ram is chanted by miracle workers, those who (want to) obtain the various supernatural powers, ridhiyan sidhiyan.
||190||


ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਿਬੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ ॥
कबीर रामै राम कहु कहिबे माहि बिबेक ॥
Kabīr rāmai rām kaho (chant/repeat) kahibe (in how you chant) māhi (inside) bibek (bichar).

Kabir says, chant "Ramay Ram" but keep in mind that

ਏਕੁ ਅਨੇਕਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਏਕ ॥੧੯੧॥
एकु अनेकहि मिलि गइआ एक समाना एक ॥१९१॥
Ėk anekėh mil ga▫i▫ā ek samānā ek. ||191||
One merged (ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ - verb) in the many, and one merged in the one.

Meaning: The one who chanted to obtain supernatural powers, was lost in the many powers, was engrossed in Maya. The one who chanted with true faith and not for some reward was merged in the One and liberated.
||191||


Essence:
The idea of chanting and training the mind to obtain supernatural pwoers was/is very prevalent in India. (Whether or not it is possible) Kabir says, those who chant to obtain some goal of receiving supernatural powers, are lost in the world, in the "many", in the powers and their displays. There is a difference in how you chant and that is in the intention. The intentions are important. Are you chanting to gain something out of it or chanting with pure devotion?


Some wisdom from our Guru ji that drive down the point that Krishna and Ram Chandra (and other incarnations of God) are God.

Watch how the following are referred to as the Ultimate Reality:

Baikunth ke Vasi (Dweller of Vaikunth - Vishnu), Kamlapati (Husband of Kamla/Lakshmi - Vishnu), Chaturbhuj (Four-armed - Vishnu is always depicted with four arms, even though he is said to have thousands), Murli Manohar (Flute player - Krishna), Raja Ram (King Ram), Raghuvansh (Descendent of Raghu - King Ram), Raghunath (Leader of Raghus' descendents - King Ram), NarSingh/Narhar (Vishnu's Man-lion incarnation), Krishna Murare (Krishna the Slayer of demon Mura), Gopi Nath (Master of the Gopis, village girls - Krishna)

ਪੰਨਾ 659, ਸਤਰ 7
ਤੁਮ ਸਰਨਾਗਤਿ ਰਾਜਾ ਰਾਮ ਚੰਦ ਕਹਿ ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਚਮਾਰਾ ॥੫॥੬॥
तुम सरनागति राजा राम चंद कहि रविदास चमारा ॥५॥६॥
Ŧum sarnāgaṯ rājā rām cẖanḏ kahi Raviḏās cẖamārā. ||5||6||
I have come to Your Sanctuary, Raja Ram Chandra; so says Ravi Daas, the shoemaker. ||5||6||


ਪੰਨਾ 973, ਸਤਰ 16
ਜਸਰਥ ਰਾਇ ਨੰਦੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਚੰਦੁ ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਨਾਮਾ ਤਤੁ ਰਸੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਜੈ ॥੪॥੪॥
जसरथ राइ नंदु राजा मेरा राम चंदु प्रणवै नामा ततु रसु अम्रितु पीजै ॥४॥४॥
Jasrath rā▫e nanḏ rājā merā rām cẖanḏ paraṇvai nāmā ṯaṯ ras amriṯ pījai. ||4||4||
My Sovereign Lord King is Raam Chandra, the Son of the King Dasrat'h; prays Naam Dayv, I drink in the Ambrosial Nectar. ||4||4||

ਪੰਨਾ 1429, ਸਤਰ 8
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਇਹ ਬਿਪਤਿ ਮੈ ਟੇਕ ਏਕ ਰਘੁਨਾਥ ॥੫੫॥
कहु नानक इह बिपति मै टेक एक रघुनाथ ॥५५॥
Kaho Nānak ih bipaṯ mai tek ek ragẖunāth. ||55||
Says Nanak, in this tragedy, Raghunath alone is my Support. ||55||
ਮਃ 9

ਪੰਨਾ 324, ਸਤਰ 13
ਚਤੁਰਾਈ ਨ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
चतुराई न चतुरभुजु पाईऐ ॥ रहाउ ॥
Cẖaṯurā▫ī na cẖaṯurbẖuj pā▫ī▫ai. Rahā▫o.
Through cleverness, the four-armed Lord (Four-armed - Vishnu is always pictured with four arms, even though he is said to have thousands) is not obtained. ||Pause||
ਭਗਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ

ਪੰਨਾ 1082, ਸਤਰ 14
ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥
स्रीरंग बैकुंठ के वासी ॥
Sarīrang baikunṯẖ ke vāsī.
ਸ੍ਰੀ+ਰੰਗ: ਲੱਛਮੀ ਨਾਲ ਰੰਗ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਵਿਸ਼ਨੂੰ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਆਪੁ, ਬੈਕੁੰਠ:ਸਵਰਗ, ਵਿਸ਼ਨੂੰ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਨਿਵਾਸ ਸਥਾਨ
Vishnu, the one who dances with Lakshmi and the dweller of Heaven.

ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥
मछु कछु कूरमु आगिआ अउतरासी ॥
Macẖẖ kacẖẖ kūram āgi▫ā a▫uṯrāsī.
By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.
ਮਃ 5



ਪੰਨਾ 93, ਸਤਰ 4
ਗਰਭ ਛੋਡਿ ਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਮੰਡਲ ਆਇਆ ਤਉ ਨਰਹਰਿ ਮਨਹੁ ਬਿਸਾਰਿਆ ॥੧॥
गरभ छोडि म्रित मंडल आइआ तउ नरहरि मनहु बिसारिआ ॥१॥
Garabẖ cẖẖod miṯar mandal ā▫i▫ā ṯa▫o narhar manhu bisāri▫ā. ||1||
Leaving the womb, you entered this mortal world; you have forgotten Narsingh/Narhar from your mind. ||1||
ਭਗਤ ਬੇਣੀ ਜੀ

ਪੰਨਾ 508, ਸਤਰ 4
ਨਾਥ ਨਰਹਰ ਦੀਨ ਬੰਧਵ ਪਤਿਤ ਪਾਵਨ ਦੇਵ ॥
नाथ नरहर दीन बंधव पतित पावन देव ॥
Nāth narhar ḏīn banḏẖav paṯiṯ pāvan ḏev.
O Lord, Man-lion Incarnate, Companion to the poor, Divine Purifier of sinners;
ਮਃ 5

ਪੰਨਾ 98, ਸਤਰ 9
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੰਗੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
गुरमुखि संगी क्रिसन मुरारे ॥
Gurmukẖ sangī krisan murāre.
The Lord Krishna becomes the Gurmukh's Companion.
ਮਃ 5

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
I must congratulate you for presenting the views which require serious attention for consideration of different NAMES used in Gurbanee.
Now the question is Do these Names actually are the references for VISHANu in Gurbanee.? This is most important question to get the answer for.

What is ultimate reality being refered in Gurbanee.?The Ultimate in Gurbanee is being refered as GuR JOTi/Prabhu JoTi.This is the Ultimate reference in Gurbanee and this is as per Quote

ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥ ਸਰਗੁਨ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਸੁੰਨ ਸਮਾਧੀ ਆਪਿ ॥ ਆਪਨ ਕੀਆ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਜਾਪਿ ॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 290}
The ultimate Reality is being refered as NIRANKAAR.in SGGS
The meanings of the words SARGUN and NIRGUN also require attention.The meanings of these words are not related to any sort of FORM.
SARGUN is the reference for ATTRIBUTES of NIRANKAAR and
NIRGUN is the reference for WITHOUT ATTRIBUTE of NIRANKAAR.

As far as manifestation of POWER of ULTIMATE REALITY as MAYA is concerned your concept is right.
From Gurbanee we learn that PERFECT JOTI (EKANKAARu) and Its POWER (ONKAAR)
both are pervading all over.(This is my understanding ,Many may not agree to this)
The PERFECT JOTi is also present within POWER(ONKAAR).

As a matter of fact this whole cocept of PERFECT JOTi(EKANKAARu) as well as POWER(ONKAAR) has been described in terms of the words GuRoo-GuRu and GuR (this also most of us dont agree)

Therefore all the NAMES refered in Gurbanee are for PURE and PERFECT GuR JoTi(EKANKAARu).GuRu Ji tells us to worship this GuR JoTi only thru NAAMu as HARiNAAMu/RAM NAAMu of this GuR JoTi .

Bhagat Singh Ji you are interprating Gurbanee considering VISHANu as the Ultimate Reality Which is not so in Gurbanee.Although it is so in Hindu Philosophy.

By now you should be able to understand the difference in Basic Philosophy of Gurbanee and that of Hindu Philosophy.

Since the whole Philosophy of Gurbanee is based on SINGLE WORD GURoo,there is no concept of GOD or GODDESSES in SGGS .IT is all GuRoo ..........................only

Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[BhagatSingh]

Prakash ji,
This is the translation I go by.
ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥
सलोकु ॥
Salok.
Shalok:
ਸਰਗੁਨ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਸੁੰਨ ਸਮਾਧੀ ਆਪਿ ॥
सरगुन निरगुन निरंकार सुंन समाधी आपि ॥
Sargun nirgun nirankār sunn samāḏẖī āp.
He possesses all qualities; He transcends all qualities; He is the Formless Lord. He Himself is in Primal Samaadhi.
ਆਪਨ ਕੀਆ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਜਾਪਿ ॥੧॥
आपन कीआ नानका आपे ही फिरि जापि ॥१॥
Āpan kī▫ā nānkā āpe hī fir jāp. ||1||
Through His Creation, O Nanak, He meditates on Himself. ||1||

Gur Jot, Prabhu and Vishnu, Nirankar are one and the same. We worship Gurjot through Hari Naam and Ram Naam because Gurjot, Hari and Ram are the same.

God is both form and formless. Guru ji is clear on this. According to them, an individual becomes enlightened when they see no difference between form and formless.

Now Ekankar and Ongkar mean the same thing to me. What difference do you see in them?

Gurbani is definitely Guru-oriented. That is we look towards and get our wisdom from the Guru and Guru alone. And developing wisdom is our only goal. Everything else, including this discussion, is trivial, with regards to our goals.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Prakash ji,
This is the translation I go by.
ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥
सलोकु ॥
Salok.
Shalok:
ਸਰਗੁਨ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਸੁੰਨ ਸਮਾਧੀ ਆਪਿ ॥
सरगुन निरगुन निरंकार सुंन समाधी आपि ॥
Sargun nirgun nirankār sunn samāḏẖī āp.
He possesses all qualities; He transcends all qualities; He is the Formless Lord. He Himself is in Primal Samaadhi.
ਆਪਨ ਕੀਆ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਜਾਪਿ ॥੧॥
आपन कीआ नानका आपे ही फिरि जापि ॥१॥
Āpan kī▫ā nānkā āpe hī fir jāp. ||1||
Through His Creation, O Nanak, He meditates on Himself. ||1||

Gur Jot, Prabhu and Vishnu, Nirankar are one and the same. We worship Gurjot through Hari Naam and Ram Naam because Gurjot, Hari and Ram are the same.

God is both form and formless. Guru ji is clear on this. According to them, an individual becomes enlightened when they see no difference between form and formless.

Now Ekankar and Ongkar mean the same thing to me. What difference do you see in them?

Gurbani is definitely Guru-oriented. That is we look towards and get our wisdom from the Guru and Guru alone. And developing wisdom is our only goal. Everything else, including this discussion, is trivial, with regards to our goals.

You are taking the meaning of NIRANKAAR as FORMLESS whereas my understanding is that the meaning of this word is not FORMLESS.
NIRANKAAR itself is a FORM of EKANKAAR.
There is a lot of deviation in the understanding of the meaning of this word NIRANKAAR.
For FORMLESS the word is NIRAKAR.

Again Bhagat Singh ji you are confused with the reference of VISHANu in Gurbanee.No where in Gurbanee VISHANu is being refered as PRABHu.
In Gurbanee it is properly EKANKAARu which has been specifically refered as PRABhu(This you can verify)
Now is VISHANu being refered as EKANKAARu anywhere? If you make no difference in VISHANu and GuR Joti this is your own assumption not the view of Gurbanee.
Gurbanee tells of PARBRAHM,PARMESAR and SATi GUR there is no reference of any GOD in SGGS .GOD word is totally inappropriate for interpretation of Gurbanee.This you can realise yourself.
Try to grasp the real meaning of the WORD GURoo you will have more clear understanding of Gurbanee references.

Also try to understand what is HARi NAAMu and RAM NAAMu in Gurbanee.Are these same or different? Once you get the answer to this this would make you clear the significance of the word GURoo in Gurbanee.
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Ambarsaria]

Bhagat Singh ji thanks for your post. Let us review another sabad,

Prakash ji,
This is the translation I go by.
ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥
सलोकु ॥
Salok.
Shalok:
ਸਰਗੁਨ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਸੁੰਨ ਸਮਾਧੀ ਆਪਿ ॥
सरगुन निरगुन निरंकार सुंन समाधी आपि ॥
Sargun nirgun nirankār sunn samāḏẖī āp.
He possesses all qualities; He transcends all qualities; He is the Formless Lord. He Himself is in Primal Samaadhi.
ਆਪਨ ਕੀਆ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਜਾਪਿ ॥੧॥
आपन कीआ नानका आपे ही फिरि जापि ॥१॥
Āpan kī▫ā nānkā āpe hī fir jāp. ||1||
Through His Creation, O Nanak, He meditates on Himself. ||1||

......

Gurbani is definitely Guru-oriented. That is we look towards and get our wisdom from the Guru and Guru alone. And developing wisdom is our only goal. Everything else, including this discussion, is trivial, with regards to our goals.

Here is the following and it shows that this kind of discussion went on basically driven by veda/Brahmin centric believers and I assume we have not learnt much inspite of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji,

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ਆਪਣਾ ਭਾਣਾ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਣੈ ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਲਹੀਐ ॥
आपणा भाणा आपे जाणै गुर किरपा ते लहीऐ ॥
Āpṇā bẖāṇā āpe jāṇai gur kirpā ṯe lahī▫ai.
Only He Himself knows His Will. By Guru's Grace, it is grasped.
ਆਪਣੀ ਰਜ਼ਾ ਨੂੰ ਉਹ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਜਾਣਦਾ ਹੈ। ਗੁਰਾਂ ਦੀ ਦਇਆ ਦੁਆਰਾ, ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਪਾਇਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ।

ਏਹਾ ਸਕਤਿ ਸਿਵੈ ਘਰਿ ਆਵੈ ਜੀਵਦਿਆ ਮਰਿ ਰਹੀਐ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
एहा सकति सिवै घरि आवै जीवदिआ मरि रहीऐ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Ėhā sakaṯ sivai gẖar āvai jīvḏi▫ā mar rahī▫ai. ||1|| rahā▫o.
When this play of Shiva and Shakti comes to his home, he remains dead while yet alive. ||1||Pause||
ਜਦ ਇਹ ਮਾਇਆ ਵਾਲੀ ਬਿਰਤੀ ਹਰੀ ਦੇ ਧਾਮ ਵਿੱਚ ਆ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਜੀਉਂਦੇ ਜੀ ਮਰਿਆ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਠਹਿਰਾਉ।

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वेद पड़ै पड़ि वादु वखाणै ब्रहमा बिसनु महेसा ॥
veḏ paṛai paṛ vāḏ vakẖāṇai barahmā bisan mahesā.

They read the Vedas, and read them again, and engage in arguments about Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.

ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਵੇਦਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਵਾਚਦਾ ਅਤੇ ਪੜ੍ਹਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾਂ, ਵਿਸ਼ਨੂੰ ਤੇ ਸ਼ਿਵਜੀ ਬਾਰੇ ਝਗੜੇ ਵਾਲੀਆਂ ਗੱਲਾ ਉਚਾਰਨ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ।
ਪੜੈ = (ਪੰਡਿਤ) ਪੜ੍ਹਦਾ ਹੈ (ਇਕ-ਵਚਨ)। ਪੜਿ = ਪੜ੍ਹ ਕੇ। ਵਾਦੁ = ਚਰਚਾ , ਕਥਾ-ਕਹਾਣੀ। ਵਖਾਣੈ = ਆਖਦਾ ਹੈ, ਸੁਣਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਮਹੇਸਾ = ਸ਼ਿਵ।
(ਪਰ, ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਰਨ ਪੈ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਰਜ਼ਾ ਨੂੰ ਸਮਝਣ ਦੇ ਥਾਂ, ਪੰਡਿਤ ਨਿਰੇ) ਵੇਦ (ਹੀ)ਪੜ੍ਹਦਾ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਤੇ, ਪੜ੍ਹ ਕੇ (ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੀ) ਚਰਚਾ ਹੀ (ਹੋਰਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ) ਸੁਣਾਂਦਾਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ; ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਵਿਸ਼ਨੂੰ ਸ਼ਿਵ (ਆਦਿਕ ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਕਥਾ-ਕਹਾਣੀਆਂ ਹੀ ਸੁਣਾਂਦਾਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ।

ਏਹ ਤ੍ਰਿਗੁਣ ਮਾਇਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਗਤੁ ਭੁਲਾਇਆ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਕਾ ਸਹਸਾ ॥
एह त्रिगुण माइआ जिनि जगतु भुलाइआ जनम मरण का सहसा ॥
Ėh ṯariguṇ mā▫i▫ā jin jagaṯ bẖulā▫i▫ā janam maraṇ kā sahsā.
This three-phased Maya has deluded the whole world into cynicism about death and birth.
ਇਸ ਤਿੰਨ ਲਛਣਾ ਵਾਲੀ ਮੋਹਣੀ ਨੇ ਸੰਸਾਰੀ ਨੂੰ ਗੁਮਰਾਹ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਇਹ ਜੰਮਣ ਅਤੇ ਮਰਨ ਦੇ ਡਰ ਅੰਦਰ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ।

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਏਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਚੂਕੈ ਮਨਹੁ ਅੰਦੇਸਾ ॥੨॥
गुर परसादी एको जाणै चूकै मनहु अंदेसा ॥२॥
Gur parsādī eko jāṇai cẖūkai manhu anḏesā. ||2||
By Guru's Grace, know the One Lord, and the anxiety of your mind will be allayed. ||2||
ਗੁਰਾਂ ਦੀ ਦਇਆ ਦੁਆਰਾ, ਇਕ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨੂੰ ਜਾਣਨ ਦੁਆਰਾ, ਚਿੱਤ ਦਾ ਫਿਕਰ ਦੂਰ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ।

ਹਮ ਦੀਨ ਮੂਰਖ ਅਵੀਚਾਰੀ ਤੁਮ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਕਰਹੁ ਹਮਾਰੀ ॥
हम दीन मूरख अवीचारी तुम चिंता करहु हमारी ॥
Ham ḏīn mūrakẖ avīcẖārī ṯum cẖinṯā karahu hamārī.
I am meek, foolish and thoughtless, but still, You take care of me.
ਮੈਂ ਮਸਕੀਨ, ਬੇਸਮਝ ਅਤੇ ਅਣਜਾਣ ਹਾਂ, ਹੇ ਸੁਆਮੀ! ਕੇਵਲ ਤੈਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਮੇਰਾ ਫਿਕਰ ਹੈ।

ਹੋਹੁ ਦਇਆਲ ਕਰਿ ਦਾਸੁ ਦਾਸਾ ਕਾ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰੀ ਤੁਮਾਰੀ ॥
होहु दइआल करि दासु दासा का सेवा करी तुमारी ॥
Hohu ḏa▫i▫āl kar ḏās ḏāsā kā sevā karī ṯumārī.
Please be kind to me, and make me the slave of Your slaves, so that I may serve You.
ਤੂੰ ਮੇਰੇ ਤੇ ਮਿਹਰਬਾਨ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਗੋਲਿਆਂ ਦਾ ਗੋਲਾ ਬਣਾ ਦੇ, ਤਾਂ ਜੋ ਮੈਂ ਤੇਰੀ ਟਹਿਲ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਮਾਵਾਂ।

ਏਕੁ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਦੇਹਿ ਤੂ ਅਪਣਾ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਖਾਣੀ ॥੩॥
एकु निधानु देहि तू अपणा अहिनिसि नामु वखाणी ॥३॥
Ėk niḏẖān ḏėh ṯū apṇā ahinis nām vakẖāṇī. ||3||
Please bless me with the treasure of the One Name, that I may chant it, day and night. ||3||
ਤੂੰ ਮੈਨੂੰ, ਹੇ ਸੁਆਮੀ! ਆਪਣੇ ਇਕ ਧਾਮ ਦਾ ਖ਼ਜ਼ਾਨਾ ਪਰਦਾਨ ਕਰ, ਤਾਂ ਜੋ ਦਿਨ ਤੇ ਰੈਣ ਮੈਂ ਇਸ ਦਾ ਉਚਾਰਨ ਕਰਾਂ।
ਕਹਤ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਬੂਝਹੁ ਕੋਈ ਐਸਾ ਕਰੇ ਵੀਚਾਰਾ ॥
कहत नानकु गुर परसादी बूझहु कोई ऐसा करे वीचारा ॥
Kahaṯ Nānak gur parsādī būjẖhu ko▫ī aisā kare vīcẖārā.
Says Nanak, by Guru's Grace, understand. Hardly anyone considers this.
ਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਆਖਦੇ ਹਨ, ਹੇ ਬੰਦੇ! ਗੁਰਾਂ ਦੀ ਦਇਆ ਦੁਆਰਾ ਤੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਹਰੀ ਨੂੰ ਸਮਝ। ਕੋਈ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਜਣਾ ਹੀ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਨੂੰ ਇਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਦਾ ਜਾਣਦਾ ਹੈ:
ਜਿਉ ਜਲ ਊਪਰਿ ਫੇਨੁ ਬੁਦਬੁਦਾ ਤੈਸਾ ਇਹੁ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥
जिउ जल ऊपरि फेनु बुदबुदा तैसा इहु संसारा ॥
Ji▫o jal ūpar fen buḏbuḏā ṯaisā ih sansārā.
Like foam bubbling up on the surface of the water, so is this world.
ਜਿਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਪਾਣੀ ਉਤੇ ਝਗ ਜਾ ਬੁਲਬੁਲਾ ਹੈ ਉਸੇ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਦਾ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਹਿੲ ਜਗਤ।

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1257&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=1&fb=0&k=1

Seems pretty familiar what you think and it is almost 500 years later?

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Prakash ji,
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ

What are your thoughts on the shabad I posted by Guru Arjan Dev ji on page 1082-3. That is the strongest support for my views as I cannot disagree with Guru Arjan Dev ji.

If by Gur jot we mean the "essence of Guru", the "wisdom of the Guru". Then this is no doubt Vishnu, the supreme reality. The Guru is trying to get us to see this reality.

What is the difference between Parbrahmn, Parmesar and Satiguru?

The only difference between Hari Naam and Ram Naam is the sound of the words. The mind has to be trained to focus on the these words as Guru ji says Dhun meh dhyan dhyan meh janiya gurmukh akat kahani

Ambarsaria ji,
I was thinking of that shabad when I said that this discussions is trivial. These are not some distant Pandits but you and I who are reading SGGS and discussing it. If we do not meditate, develop wisdom and develop a virtuous character along with teh discussion then the discussion is undoubtedly fruitless.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Prakash ji,
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ

What are your thoughts on the shabad I posted by Guru Arjan Dev ji on page 1082-3. That is the strongest support for my views as I cannot disagree with Guru Arjan Dev ji.

If by Gur jot we mean the "essence of Guru", the "wisdom of the Guru". Then this is no doubt Vishnu, the supreme reality. The Guru is trying to get us to see this reality.

What is the difference between Parbrahmn, Parmesar and Satiguru?

The only difference between Hari Naam and Ram Naam is the sound of the words. The mind has to be trained to focus on the these words as Guru ji says Dhun meh dhyan dhyan meh janiya gurmukh akat kahani

Ambarsaria ji,
I was thinking of that shabad when I said that this discussions is trivial. These are not some distant Pandits but you and I who are reading Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and discussing it. If we do not meditate, develop wisdom and develop a virtuous character along with teh discussion then the discussion is undoubtedly fruitless.

My understanding is that GuR JoTi does not mean the essence of GuRu.
We should have clear concept about GuR JoTi for proper understanding of GurBanee.

There is no difference in Parbrahm,Parmesar and SATi GuR.All refer to GuR GoTi only.

There is no difference in HARi NAAMu and RAM NAAMu in Gurbanee.Both NAAMu are a COMMON PAIR OF WORD refereing to GuR JoTi only.

Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[BhagatSingh]

ਪੰਨਾ 1409, ਸਤਰ 3
ਰਾਮਦਾਸਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਜਗ ਤਾਰਨ ਕਉ ਗੁਰ ਜੋਤਿ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਧਰੀ ॥੪॥
रामदासि गुरू जग तारन कउ गुर जोति अरजुन माहि धरी ॥४॥
Rāmḏās gurū jag ṯāran ka▫o gur joṯ arjun māhi ḏẖarī. ||4||
Guru Raam Daas, to save the world, enshrined the Guru's Light into Guru Arjun. ||4||
ਭਟ ਮਥੁਰਾ

This is the only place the phrase Gur Jot appears in SGGS.

 

[Luckysingh]

Prakashji,

Could you explain, in a clear a fashion as possible, what Gur and GuRoo, means, as although we have discussed this many, many times, I do not believe we ever got to a conclusion, which is a shame, because I am genuinely interested in the differences

regards

Prakash Ji
I would appreciate if you could answer the above with some examples if possible.
-You will probably ask where I stand at the moment with my view on the above so that you may understand what exactly I mean.-
Well, to me the words Gur and Guroo mean the same.

This thread is getting a little erratic at this stage. We seem too ,too busy trying to intepret words in the sense to clarify if they are formless referring or witha form... etc...
I don't get it, why all this fuss?
If you read the posts from page 5 or 6 to the current, you will say to yourself- what happened here ?

Are we trying to gain something different from each other by assigning different meanings for words that describe the Lord ?
I'm sorry, I don't get it, - to me, all I want is to Jap the name, read the bani, gain more wisdom and meditate on the naam.

TO me, the name, description, words, hindu incarnation names ALL mean the SAME. wether form or formless they ALL come acrosss as ONE. I see no difference with any form or formless description.
GOD is within us all, pervades and permeates everywhere. There is God in me, in you, maybe more was in Krishan and Vishnu, maybe less in Ravan, whatever. We are NOT going to start measuring and defining a scale now.

I see NO difference in seeing the creator in a form or not. The whole universe and it's contents wether you class them good or bad, I do not. I see it ALL as ONE , both good, bad, dark, light, high, low, everything, atlantic or pacific, all the contents are part of ONE, regardless of function.

Maybe, I'm crazy to see everything as the same and I can't understand why anyone else cannot.

I don't think that the bani will make me any wiser if I start seeing Gur and Guroo as different.

I hope Prakash Ji can correct me on this, and help me gain more wisdom and understanding by acknowledging a difference in Gur and Guroo or form and formless.

Sat Kartar
Lucky Singh

 

[Ambarsaria]

Perhaps the following is of help that I had collected for my own notes,

ਗੁਰਾhy siqgurU!; Gur oye;

gurmuiK gurU vl mUMh kIiqAW, ijs mnu`K dw mUMh gurU vl hY, gurU dI rwhIN[gurU dI srn pY ky; gurU dy snmuK rihx vwlw mnu`K

ਗੁਰੁਪੂਰਾpUry gurU ƒ (gurU dy aupdyS ƒ)

siqguru mMinAW gurU auqy srDw ilAWdI [; Gur noon

ਗੁਰੁ ( gur)Of Gur or of the creator; Gur hee; creator is

ਗੁਰਾ (Gurā) The Gur action, Example: Gur did, Gur is, Gur has, Gur will, etc.


ਗੁਰੁ iest pRBU

ਗੁਰੂ (gurū) The teacher, the shaper, the action taker, etc. Also Prabhu

ਗੁਰ (Gur) The one creator, Prabh

Page 2, Line 9
ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥
गुरु ईसरु गुरु गोरखु बरमा गुरु पारबती माई ॥
Gur īsar gur gorakẖ barmā gur pārbaṯī mā▫ī.
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


Page 2, Line 12
ਗੁਰਾ ਇਕ ਦੇਹਿ ਬੁਝਾਈ ॥
गुरा इक देहि बुझाई ॥
Gurā ik ḏehi bujẖā▫ī.
The Guru has given me this one understanding:

Page 3, Line 10
ਮੰਨੈ ਤਰੈ ਤਾਰੇ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਿਖ ॥
मंनै तरै तारे गुरु सिख ॥
Mannai ṯarai ṯāre gur sikẖ.
The faithful are saved, and carried across with the Sikhs of the Guru.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 3, Line 12
ਪੰਚਾ ਕਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਏਕੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥
पंचा का गुरु एकु धिआनु ॥
Pancẖā kā gur ek ḏẖi▫ān.
The chosen ones meditate single-mindedly on the Guru.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 8, Line 10
ਪਵਣੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਪਾਣੀ ਪਿਤਾ ਮਾਤਾ ਧਰਤਿ ਮਹਤੁ ॥
पवणु गुरू पाणी पिता माता धरति महतु ॥
Pavaṇ gurū pāṇī piṯā māṯā ḏẖaraṯ mahaṯ.
Air is the Guru, Water is the Father, and Earth is the Great Mother of all.
Guru Angad Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Lot of the applications are contextual. The context is always "one creator" and association with the same. In teaching, in visualization, as a concept, etc.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: The following also referenced in Mahan Kosh,

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ਸੰ. गुरू ਗੁਰੂ. {ਸੰਗ੍ਯਾ}. ਇਹ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਗ੍ਰੀ (गृ) ਧਾਤੁ ਤੋਂ ਬਣਿਆ ਹੈ, ਇਸ ਦੇ ਅਰਥ ਹਨ ਨਿਗਲਣਾ ਅਤੇ ਸਮਝਾਉਣਾ, ਜੋ ਅਗ੍ਯਾਨ ਨੂੰ ਖਾ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਸਿੱਖ ਨੂੰ ਤਤ੍ਵਗ੍ਯਾਨ ਸਮਝਾਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ. ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਵਿੱਚ ਗੁਰ, ਗੁਰੁ ਅਤੇ ਗੁਰੁ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਇੱਕ ਹੀ ਅਰਥ ਵਿੱਚ ਆਏ ਹਨ, ਯਥਾ- "ਗੁਰੁ ਅਪਨੇ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ". (ਸੋਰ ਮਃ ੫) " ਸੁਖ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ ". (ਸੋਰ ਮਃ ੫) "ਅਪਨਾ ਗੁਰੂ ਧਿਆਏ". (ਸੋਰ ਮਃ ੫)।

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

ਪੰਨਾ 1409, ਸਤਰ 3
ਰਾਮਦਾਸਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਜਗ ਤਾਰਨ ਕਉ ਗੁਰ ਜੋਤਿ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਧਰੀ ॥੪॥
रामदासि गुरू जग तारन कउ गुर जोति अरजुन माहि धरी ॥४॥
Rāmḏās gurū jag ṯāran ka▫o gur joṯ arjun māhi ḏẖarī. ||4||
Guru Raam Daas, to save the world, enshrined the Guru's Light into Guru Arjun. ||4||
ਭਟ ਮਥੁਰਾ

This is the only place the phrase Gur Jot appears in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

The significance is of the concept of GuR JoTi being stated.
Let us look at the importance of this.Similarly we have the reference as Prabh JoTi too in Sukhmani Sahib.
Prakash.S.Bagga