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Who Does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Address Most?

What was the driver behind Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji?

  • Sri Guru Granth Sahib written to help Hindus become Sikh

    Votes: 1 5.0%
  • Guru Granth Sahib ji written to help Sikhs stay the course

    Votes: 6 30.0%
  • Guru Granth Sahib ji written to help all in non-religious ways

    Votes: 10 50.0%
  • Other (please explan)

    Votes: 7 35.0%

  • Total voters
    20
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Ambarsaria

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If you ask me, it addresses it most to people who have no idea of religion in India and not necessarily Hindus. If you ask me, it was addressed more to the muslim kings than anyone, since they were the cause of the chaos.
Kamala ji you are 110% wrong. Muslims during Guru jis times were the best of people while the Brahmins and the rest of the clowns pillaged people with myths, class discrimination, protection of wisdom for the privileged, etc. It was squarely addressed to the purveyors of Hinduism with Deities, moortis, havans, pakhands, salvation for exchange of goods and services, the Brahmin shop, etc.

Many Muslim rulers and invaders were trash and just bad people but they came from linage of war lords, oppressors of weak, and so on. This started form Guru Arjan Dev ji onwards by which time Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was more or less 95% plus complete.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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Gyani Jarnail Singh

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When the Gurus came on stage...certain words had already became INGRAINED on the masses' brains and minds...as such and such...already deeply rooted. For Guru Ji to INVENT or use entirely new words and then try and introduce those new words based on GURMATT would have been a task hugely waste of valuable time..a people used to living 1000 yeras in abject slavery to religious bigots, robber barons, looting pujarees, brahmins, pandits and kazis....hence Guru ji in his infinte wisdom decided to use the ESTABLISHED WORDS BUT Give them GURMATT MEANINGS...hence the RAAM of Gurmatt is NOT what the masses already beleived in..( King of Ayudhia, husband of Sita, son of Dasrath, commander of the hanuman forces etc..) BUT the RAAM that is the CREATOR....similarly Govind, Narayan, hari, parmatam etc etc...Inspite of this saving lots of time it still took over 250 years of human endeavour and 10 life times to bring about a physicla and mental paradigm shift to enable the slave minds to rebel and take charge and throw off the yokes......

2. Parkash Ji I am not saying that SGGS is written in jumbled letters..i am saying how people can SEE PARmatma when there is NO Such word in sggs. This is because the Parmatma is a most essential part of the vocabulary of Hinduism earlier than Guru nanak..Guru ji discarded this concept. Even the word used in the follwoing is Parmatam..Khalsa was created in Parmatam's mauj...NOT Parmatma's mauj.

And Yes the aunkadd signifies SINGULAR..the Creator is SINGULAR and He is NOT a Super(SOUL) atma....the Parmatam is Parmatam.
 
Aug 28, 2010
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GIYANI JARNAIL SINGH Ji,
Thanks for your lucid presentation in respect of the use of the word PARMATAMA.

Similarly there is no concept of GOD in SGGS . This should also be looked into .

Prakash.s.Bagga
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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YES..there is NO "GOD" in Gurmatt/Gurbani/SGGS. God is in the Torah..the Bible...and the Koran (changed to Allah and slightly different).....BUT the Supreme Creator in SGGS is a Paradigm Shift from those concepts of God/Allah. This Creator NEVER...NEVER gets angry...NEVER destroys anything esp innocent men women and children/animals etc in anger or to make an example of..or to manifest His POWER...NEVER displays miracles...extraordinary feats such as plagues..turning rivers of water into blood..move mountains or churn oceans etc etc..NEVR gives Commandments and Orders..Never stays the SUN in order to give His chosen people a few more hours to fight and win..Never has Sons or daughters or avtaars...or Messengers to deliver His Message...Akal Purakh is most beneficient..most kind..most merciful..most pleasant..most sweet mouthed...LOVE LOVE and ONLY LOVE. Akal Purakh presides over neither heavens nor hells..he doesnt give rewards nor punishments...only LOVE pleases Him.
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

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In the Self
Akal Purakh is most beneficient..most kind..most merciful

Gyani Ji If Akaal Purukh can be kind does that not mean he can choose to be other things ,for just as if God has the capacity to be kind ,which is a very personal charecteristic ,why can't he be angry as in the Biblical sense?
 
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YES..there is NO "GOD" in Gurmatt/Gurbani/Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. God is in the Torah..the Bible...and the Koran (changed to Allah and slightly different).....BUT the Supreme Creator in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a Paradigm Shift from those concepts of God/Allah. This Creator NEVER...NEVER gets angry...NEVER destroys anything esp innocent men women and children/animals etc in anger or to make an example of..or to manifest His POWER...NEVER displays miracles...extraordinary feats such as plagues..turning rivers of water into blood..move mountains or churn oceans etc etc..NEVR gives Commandments and Orders..Never stays the SUN in order to give His chosen people a few more hours to fight and win..Never has Sons or daughters or avtaars...or Messengers to deliver His Message...Akal Purakh is most beneficient..most kind..most merciful..most pleasant..most sweet mouthed...LOVE LOVE and ONLY LOVE. Akal Purakh presides over neither heavens nor hells..he doesnt give rewards nor punishments...only LOVE pleases Him.

Well your answer is exactly what is expected from a person of your background.
IsnT Surprising that all our preachers and scholars interprate Gurbanee with a concept of GOD or PARMATAMA/.This is perhaps the basic reason why we are not able to understand the true meanings of Gurbanee.
I hope you will keep guiding the people for this wrong concepts being prapogated thru Gurbanee.

With regards

Prakash.S.Bagga
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Gyani Ji If Akaal Purukh can be kind does that not mean he can choose to be other things ,for just as if God has the capacity to be kind ,which is a very personal charecteristic ,why can't he be angry as in the Biblical sense?


Of course HE Can Ji..BUT He IS NOT. He could be BLACK..but Hes WHITE by CHOICE.
I Can chose to be a serial Rapist..BUT I chose to be married to just One.
 

BhagatSingh

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Jesus Christ lol Parmatma and Parmatam mean the same thing. That which is singular is simultaneously plural.
Page 13, Line 3
ਸਹਸ ਤਵ ਨੈਨ ਨਨ ਨੈਨ ਹਹਿ ਤੋਹਿ ਕਉ ਸਹਸ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਨਨਾ ਏਕ ਤਹੀ ॥
सहस तव नैन नन नैन हहि तोहि कउ सहस मूरति नना एक तोही ॥
Sahas ṯav nain nan nain hėh ṯohi ka▫o sahas mūraṯ nanā ek ṯohī.
You have thousands of eyes, and yet You have no eyes. You have thousands of forms, and yet You do not have even one.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


The intellectually dishonest use of previously existing vocabulary is an appealing theory to some but Ram is both the King of Ayodhya and the Almighty One. Ram means and always meant both simultaneously. Another example is Krishna who is sometimes referred to gopi-seducer, four-armed Lord in Gurbani, which carry all meanings. Just like Guru Nanak has come to mean both the 1st Guru and the Almighty One. For some future prophet/Guru/Avatar/messenger of God to then preach that one needs to dissolve one's ego to reach Guru Nanak, would not be surprising. He need not invent new vocabulary as the older vocabulary already covers what he is talking about.

If Guru Sahibs were looking specifically for words for their vision, then there were several, Ishvar, Parmatam, Brahman, etc. already available that were disconnected from any avatars, which of course they do use often (especially Brahman). But these are devoid of personal characteristics and so do not seem to appeal to Guru Sahibs as much as words that carry personal characteristics. Again there was no need invent any words. And to claim that they used old words to mean something entirely different, is simply accusing Gurus of deception. Gurus were not trying to deceive Hindus into Sikh fold by using words like Ram, Mohan, Gobind, Krishna, Chaturbhuj and Guru that they did not believe in. They believed in them and were honest about what they felt. This drew people in. Honesty and truth draw people in.

Such words carry familiar images of Krishna the herder, the seducer, Ram the righteous warrior, make for great imagery and thus would naturally appeal to everyone (because they stick in the mind - every kid on the block knows the stories) including the authors of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Their vision of God is personal. They use the pronoun "You" (Krishna) as opposed to "It" (Brahman), etc.

An example of this personal relationship:

Guru Granth Sahib Page 1197

ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ ਚਉਪਦੇ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਘਰੁ ੧
रागु सारग चउपदे महला १ घरु १
Rāg sārag cẖa▫upḏe mėhlā 1 gẖar 1
Raag Saarang, Chau-Padas, First Mehl, First House:

ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ੴ सति नामु करता पुरखु निरभउ निरवैरु अकाल मूरति अजूनी सैभं गुर प्रसादि ॥
Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯ nām karṯā purakẖ nirbẖa▫o nirvair akāl mūraṯ ajūnī saibẖaʼn gur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. Truth Is The Name. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying. Beyond Birth. Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace:

ਅਪੁਨੇ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕੀ ਹਉ ਚੇਰੀ ॥
अपुने ठाकुर की हउ चेरी ॥
Apune ṯẖākur kī ha▫o cẖerī.
I am the hand-maiden of my Lord and Master.

ਚਰਨ ਗਹੇ ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੇ ਹਉਮੈ ਮਾਰਿ ਨਿਬੇਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
चरन गहे जगजीवन प्रभ के हउमै मारि निबेरी ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Cẖaran gahe jagjīvan parabẖ ke ha▫umai mār niberī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
I have grasped the Feet of God, the Life of the world. He has killed and eradicated my egotism. ||1||Pause||

ਪੂਰਨ ਪਰਮ ਜੋਤਿ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਹਮਾਰੇ ॥
पूरन परम जोति परमेसर प्रीतम प्रान हमारे ॥
Pūran param joṯ parmesar parīṯam parān hamāre.
He is the Perfect, Supreme Light, the Supreme Lord God, my Beloved, my Breath of Life.

ਮੋਹਨ ਮੋਹਿ ਲੀਆ ਮਨੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਮਝਸਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥੧॥
मोहन मोहि लीआ मनु मेरा समझसि सबदु बीचारे ॥१॥
Mohan mohi lī▫ā man merā samjẖas sabaḏ bīcẖāre. ||1||
The Fascinating Lord has fascinated my mind; contemplating the Word of the Shabad, I have come to understand. ||1||
ਮੋਹਨ - Krishna being referred to as the lover, seducer. He was very charming and every girl in the village wanted to be his bride. The soul-bride metaphor that comes at the end of the shabad only makes sense in light of Krishna's life story.
The Seducer (Krishna/God) has seduced my mind and I have come to understand.


ਮਨਮੁਖ ਹੀਨ ਹੋਛੀ ਮਤਿ ਝੂਠੀ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਪੀਰ ਸਰੀਰੇ ॥
मनमुख हीन होछी मति झूठी मनि तनि पीर सरीरे ॥
Manmukẖ hīn hocẖẖī maṯ jẖūṯẖī man ṯan pīr sarīre.
The worthless self-willed manmukh, with false and shallow understanding - his mind and body are held in pain's grip.

ਜਬ ਕੀ ਰਾਮ ਰੰਗੀਲੈ ਰਾਤੀ ਰਾਮ ਜਪਤ ਮਨ ਧੀਰੇ ॥੨॥
जब की राम रंगीलै राती राम जपत मन धीरे ॥२॥
Jab kī rām rangīlai rāṯī rām japaṯ man ḏẖīre. ||2||
Since I came to be imbued with the Love of my Beautiful Lord, I meditate on the Lord, and my mind is encouraged. ||2||

ਹਉਮੈ ਛੋਡਿ ਭਈ ਬੈਰਾਗਨਿ ਤਬ ਸਾਚੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਸਮਾਨੀ ॥
हउमै छोडि भई बैरागनि तब साची सुरति समानी ॥
Ha▫umai cẖẖod bẖa▫ī bairāgan ṯab sācẖī suraṯ samānī.
Abandoning egotism, I have become detached. And now, I absorb true intuitive understanding.

ਅਕੁਲ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਸਿਉ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ਬਿਸਰੀ ਲਾਜ ਲਕਾਨੀ ॥੩॥
अकुल निरंजन सिउ मनु मानिआ बिसरी लाज लोकानी ॥३॥
Akul niranjan si▫o man māni▫ā bisrī lāj lokānī. ||3||
The mind is pleased and appeased by the Pure, Immaculate Lord; the opinions of other people are irrelevant. ||3||

ਭੂਰ ਭਵਿਖ ਨਾਹੀ ਤੁਮ ਜੈਸੇ ਮੇਰੇ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਅਧਾਰਾ ॥
भूर भविख नाही तुम जैसे मेरे प्रीतम प्रान अधारा ॥
Bẖūr bẖavikẖ nāhī ṯum jaise mere parīṯam parān aḏẖārā.
There is no other like You, in the past or in the future, O my Beloved, my Breath of Life, my Support.

ਹਰਿ ਕੈ ਨਾਮਿ ਰਤੀ ਸੋਹਾਗਨਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਮ ਭਤਾਰਾ ॥੪॥੧॥
हरि कै नामि रती सोहागनि नानक राम भतारा ॥४॥१॥
Har kai nām raṯī sohāgan Nānak rām bẖaṯārā. ||4||1||
The soul-bride is imbued with the Name of the Lord; O Nanak, the Lord is her Husband. ||4||1||

Cheers
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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A very very simple example. In a Class of 40 students from various backgrounds....the Punjabi word THAAL/THALEE has no meaning..even though i have a pile of them on my table. Whne I ask ..where are the Thalls..all blink at me....but the instant i mention..plate..saucer..etc etc...everyone UNDERSTANDS that what i am asking about are there in a pile right in front of me and all rush to hand me one....IF I was afraid of duplicity or committing intellectual fraud/theft etc..i would be forever trying to figure out how to get mt THAALEES out so the students can begin lunch.

Later on Gagan mehn THAAAL..Thalee seen being carried by certain heroines in serials when they go to pray to Devi mata..full of a coconut..flowers etc...even the kiddos get the picture....
WHY DID Guru Ji use the specific word THAAL...to describe the UNIVERSE..simply becasue the THAALEE used in AARTEE was so common...any 2 year old Hindu could get the message Guru ji was trying to put across...THAT is NOT intellectual theft of the word Thaal..or duplicity etc etc..too far fetched and imagination running wild...The THAAL of Gurbani is NOT the same as the THAALEE carried by hindu women to mandir.

PS. side note..I do get some "purist" parents who off and on..jump high...why ?? Becasue I ma Punjabi master Ji..why am i using the English word PLATE to get my students to "see" what i mean..i should PERSEVERE...use SIGN language..etc etc and ONLY Use PUNJABI words in a Punjabi class...To such idiots i say..the Message is important...and TIME is SHORT...You are welcome to complain..Master Ji Punjabi class vich angrezi boli janda hai..punjabi swaah parrauhaundah ?? Thalee nu plate saddee janda hai...I beleive GUru nanak ji was in the same situation..He had very little time to deliver His Message about the GAGAM MEHN THAAL.......and He didnt care two hoots about what people will accuse him of...:happysingh:
 
Apr 11, 2007
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One, who understands the atma, knows him as the Parmatma; the Nectar tree bears the nectar fruit (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 421).

Please tell me if this translation is wrong as I have been learning Gurbani through english translation. As such if the translation is wrong I would hope that admin would allow me to edit a previous post of mine as I have to edit one of my previous posts as I thought the word parmatma exsisted in the Guru Granth Sahib due to this translation. Thanks!
 
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One, who understands the atma, knows him as the Parmatma; the Nectar tree bears the nectar fruit (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 421).

Please tell me if this translation is wrong as I have been learning Gurbani through english translation. As such if the translation is wrong I would hope that admin would allow me to edit a previous post of mine as I have to edit one of my previous posts as I thought the word parmatma exsisted in the Guru Granth Sahib due to this translation. Thanks!

If you carefully see the words of the refered Quote line from SGGS at pp421
it is very clear that the proper word is ATAM(u) not Atma and following word is PARMATAM(u) not Pramatama.
As a matter of fact the word Parmatam(u) referes to JoTi of Parmatama.
I think now you should be able to understand the difference between Parmatam(u) and Parmatama.
In SGGS the word Parmatama has not been used ,important point but we do find the use of the word Pramatam(u).
Prakash.S.Bagga
 
Apr 11, 2007
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If you carefully see the words of the refered Quote line from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji at pp421
it is very clear that the proper word is ATAM(u) not Atma and following word is PARMATAM(u) not Pramatama.
As a matter of fact the word Parmatam(u) referes to JoTi of Parmatama.
I think now you should be able to understand the difference between Parmatam(u) and Parmatama.
In Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji the word Parmatama has not been used ,important point but we do find the use of the word Pramatam(u).
Prakash.S.Bagga

Thanks Mr Parkash ji, So the word Parmatama does not exsist in the Guru Granth Sahib, must be a miss translation in the above? I dont know what the sentance in the above is meant to be then? Does not seem to be any clearer to me! I would love to have the real translation of the above line please? Thank's in all your help and I hope admin will allow me to change my previous posting in another thread! Anybodies help is welcome peacesign
 
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Aug 28, 2010
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Thanks Mr Parkash ji, So the word Parmatama does not exsist in the Guru Granth Sahib, must be a miss translation in the above? I dont know what the sentance in the above is meant to be then? Does not seem to be any clearer to me! I would love to have the real translation of the above line please? Thank's in all your help and I hope admin will allow me to change my previous posting in another thread! Anybodies help is welcome peacesign

The quote is as
ਜਿਨੀ ਆਤਮੁ ਚੀਨਿਆ ਪਰਮਾਤਮੁ ਸੋਈ ॥ ਏਕੋ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਿਰਖੁ ਹੈ ਫਲੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਹੋਈ

As per my understanding the interpretation is that
Who understands his own form , becomes the form of the Creator.
The NAAM of CREATOR is the Amrit Tree and its fruits are of Amrit NAAM only.

Prakash.S.Bagga
 

Ambarsaria

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Prakash.S.Bagga ji thanks for your post.
The quote is as
ਜਿਨੀ ਆਤਮੁ ਚੀਨਿਆ ਪਰਮਾਤਮੁ ਸੋਈ ॥ ਏਕੋ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਿਰਖੁ ਹੈ ਫਲੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਹੋਈ

As per my understanding the interpretation is that
Who understands his own form , becomes the form of the Creator.
The NAAM of CREATOR is the Amrit Tree and its fruits are of Amrit NAAM only.

Prakash.S.Bagga
The sabad line with more descriptions and translations,

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ਜਿਨੀ ਆਤਮੁ ਚੀਨਿਆ ਪਰਮਾਤਮੁ ਸੋਈ
जिनी आतमु चीनिआ परमातमु सोई ॥
Jinī āṯam cẖīni▫ā parmāṯam so▫ī.
Those who understand their own souls, are themselves the Supreme Soul.
ਜੋ ਆਪਣੀ ਆਤਮਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਸਮਝਦੇ ਹਨ, ਉਹ ਖੁਦ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮ (ਪਰਮ ਆਤਮਾਂ) ਹਨ।
ਆਤਮੁ = ਆਪਣਾ ਆਪ, ਆਪਣਾ ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ। ਚੀਨਿਆ = ਪਛਾਣਿਆ। ਸੋਈ = ਉਹੀ ਬੰਦੇ।
ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਬੰਦਿਆਂ ਨੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਨੂੰ ਪਰਖਿਆ ਪਛਾਣਿਆ ਹੈ ਉਹੀ ਬੰਦੇ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੂੰ ਪਛਾਣ ਲੈਂਦੇ ਹਨ।
Those who understand their spiritual inside, also are able to relate to the one supreme soul.


ਏਕੋ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਿਰਖੁ ਹੈ ਫਲੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਹੋਈ ੬॥
एको अम्रित बिरखु है फलु अम्रितु होई ॥६॥
Ėko amriṯ birakẖ hai fal amriṯ ho▫ī. ||6||
The One Lord is the tree of ambrosial nectar, which bears the ambrosial fruit. ||6||
ਕੇਵਲ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਹੀ ਆਬਿ-ਹਿਯਾਤ ਦਾ ਰੁੱਖ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਨੂੰ ਸੁਧਾ ਸਰੂਪ ਮੇਵਾ ਲੱਗਦਾ ਹੈ।
xxx੬॥
(ਉਹਸਮਝ ਲੈਂਦੇ ਹਨ ਕਿ) ਇਕ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਹੀ ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ-ਰੂਪ ਫਲ ਦੇਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਰੁੱਖ ਹੈ, ਉਸਪ੍ਰਭੂ-ਰੁੱਖ ਦਾ ਫਲ ਸਦਾ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਰੂਪ ਹੈ। {ਨੋਟ: ਜਿਵੇਂ ਫਲ ਤੋਂ ਰੁੱਖ, ਤੇ ਰੁੱਖਤੋਂ ਫਲ ਦੀ ਪਛਾਣ ਕਰ ਲਈਦੀ ਹੈ, ਤਿਵੇਂ ਜਿਸ ਨੂੰ ਆਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਗਿਆਨ ਹੋ ਜਾਏ ਉਸ ਨੂੰਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਭੀ ਗਿਆਨ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ} ॥੬॥
One of pure is such tree (creator) and so this gives pure fruit.
So I find issue with your translations in the sense that you are claiming that one becomes ਪਰਮਾਤਮੁ / ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ. This I believe is false.

There is a phrase that goes like,
It takes one, to know one
This appears to be the understanding conveyed by Prof. Sahib Singh ji and I believe we had dialog on this aspect before.


It is usually not used in positive connotations but the essence is that in order to understand, in order to value someone, one almost have to be in their framework of understanding and being.

One does not become one, but gets the ability to recognize or understand. Huge difference as following your logic, many including our Guru ji could be classified as ਪਰਮਾਤਮੁ / ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ . Simple extensions of this will lead you into numerous deities, Babeys, Dehras, etc. Which is far from what our Guru ji either claimed, bestowed on someone or encouraged anyone to so claim.

Sat Sri Akal.

 
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BhagatSingh

SPNer
Apr 24, 2006
2,921
1,655
A very very simple example. In a Class of 40 students from various backgrounds....the Punjabi word THAAL/THALEE has no meaning..even though i have a pile of them on my table. Whne I ask ..where are the Thalls..all blink at me....but the instant i mention..plate..saucer..etc etc...everyone UNDERSTANDS that what i am asking about are there in a pile right in front of me and all rush to hand me one....
Your argument is weak Gyani ji. and this just proves my point that made earlier. Plate and thalee mean the exact same thing. Anyways this is not a good analogy. Those are two different languages. In our case the language is the same. The same words are used. A better example would be: You walk into the class and ask someone to hand you a thal. The class understands the word 'thal' so you go ahead use the word 'thal'. One of the students gets up and hands you a thal.

Bhagat Namdev ji (1270 -1350) is worshipping Ram and other incarnations of God like Narsingh. This is the same Ram (and Narsingh etc) that Swami Ramanand ji, his guru (and his Guru and so on) and his disciples - Bhagat Kabir ji, Bhagat Dhanna ji, etc (1400s-1500s) - are talking about is the same Ram that Guru Sahibs are talking about (1500 onwards). They are not even using different words. It's the same Ram, Raja Ram Chandra, the incarnation of God, son of Dasrath, slayer of Raavan.
 
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Mar 30, 2012
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Our Guru ji were of Hindu lineage. They discovered and wanted to create a future beyond Hinduism. That future in brevity has come to be known as Sikhism.

In Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Guru ji and other writers shattered so many myths of Hiduism, spoke up against ill direction provided by the then purveyors of Hinduism, to some extent also the then leaders or people in-charge of Islam. So to me Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was composed for the following purpose,

  • To help Hindus to unshackle and become wiser and Sikh
  • To help Sikhs that became to have a guiding light forever so to be not lost
  • Anyone else who could just benefit from large amounts of humanistic thoughts, wisdom, poetry and many other attributes of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
What you think?

Sat Sri Akal.
Hinduism is not a religion. It is a way of life where too much liberty is allowed. Anybody is free to adopt any philosophy and no body is there to criticize him. This is good as free flow of thoughts is allowed. In contrast in Islam, too much conservatism is there where you are not free to express your thoughts. That is why many Sufi saints were butchered by orthodox Mullahs who themselves do not know the true tenets of their religion. That is why many Sikh Gurus were also tortured by them. But again, there is one drawback in being too liberal as it also exists in Hinduism, it may miss the mark for a true seeker as environment for spirituality may not be generated. Spirituality requires clarity of thoughts, focused approach, self restraint and discipline. When a religion becomes old, then ritualism comes in and reality is lost; the same happened in Hinduism many times and God then sends his saints or himself comes in human form (like Guru Nanak) to awaken the sleeping spirits. Not everyone is interested in spirituality, very few are real lovers of God. It was the good luck of India and Punjab that ten Gurus came and brought a new light to Indian soil. As Sikhism is very recent (only 400-500 year old) one can still see the sign of dynamism, discipline and devotion in face of many Sikhs and they are the cream of India which even Hindus admire. But again you see the greatness of Hinduism, they do not hesitate to read Gurbani or revere Guru Sahibs and nobody criticizes them. But now in Sikhism, ritualism has set which is propagated by persons of vested interests (Politicians and religious heads) who misinterpret Gurbani as per their personal agenda and fool the common sikh. They propogate rituals which were criticized by Guru Nanak. They concentrate more on outward dress code, rituals etc, than stressing on spiritual meditation taught by Guru Sahibs. They try to restrict Gurbani to Sikhs only but in reality Gurbani should be taught to all people of world as light of Akal Purukh cannot be restricted to Sikhs. Sikhs should become role model so that they can glorify their community, their Guru Sahibs and their country (India in particular as it is the land of so many saints.)
 
Aug 28, 2010
1,514
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Your argument is weak Gyani ji. and this just proves my point that made earlier. Plate and thalee mean the exact same thing. Anyways this is not a good analogy. Those are two different languages. In our case the language is the same. The same words are used. A better example would be: You walk into the class and ask someone to hand you a thal. The class understands the word 'thal' so you go ahead use the word 'thal'. One of the students gets up and hands you a thal.

Bhagat Namdev ji (1270 -1350) is worshipping Ram and other incarnations of God like Narsingh. This is the same Ram (and Narsingh etc) that Swami Ramanand ji, his guru (and his Guru and so on) and his disciples - Bhagat Kabir ji, Bhagat Dhanna ji, etc (1400s-1500s) - are talking about is the same Ram that Guru Sahibs are talking about (1500 onwards). They are not even using different words. It's the same Ram, Raja Ram Chandra, the incarnation of God, son of Dasrath, slayer of Raavan.

Bhagats have made clear distinction betweem RAM as Joti and RAM(U) as
Son of Dashrath.All bhagats are giving the message of worship for RAM as NAAM(u) only.
Prakash.S.Bagga
 
Aug 28, 2010
1,514
1,116
72
Hinduism is not a religion. It is a way of life where too much liberty is allowed. Anybody is free to adopt any philosophy and no body is there to criticize him. This is good as free flow of thoughts is allowed. In contrast in Islam, too much conservatism is there where you are not free to express your thoughts. That is why many Sufi saints were butchered by orthodox Mullahs who themselves do not know the true tenets of their religion. That is why many Sikh Gurus were also tortured by them. But again, there is one drawback in being too liberal as it also exists in Hinduism, it may miss the mark for a true seeker as environment for spirituality may not be generated. Spirituality requires clarity of thoughts, focused approach, self restraint and discipline. When a religion becomes old, then ritualism comes in and reality is lost; the same happened in Hinduism many times and God then sends his saints or himself comes in human form (like Guru Nanak) to awaken the sleeping spirits. Not everyone is interested in spirituality, very few are real lovers of God. It was the good luck of India and Punjab that ten Gurus came and brought a new light to Indian soil. As Sikhism is very recent (only 400-500 year old) one can still see the sign of dynamism, discipline and devotion in face of many Sikhs and they are the cream of India which even Hindus admire. But again you see the greatness of Hinduism, they do not hesitate to read Gurbani or revere Guru Sahibs and nobody criticizes them. But now in Sikhism, ritualism has set which is propagated by persons of vested interests (Politicians and religious heads) who misinterpret Gurbani as per their personal agenda and fool the common sikh. They propogate rituals which were criticized by Guru Nanak. They concentrate more on outward dress code, rituals etc, than stressing on spiritual meditation taught by Guru Sahibs. They try to restrict Gurbani to Sikhs only but in reality Gurbani should be taught to all people of world as light of Akal Purukh cannot be restricted to Sikhs. Sikhs should become role model so that they can glorify their community, their Guru Sahibs and their country (India in particular as it is the land of so many saints.)

No one is rstricting the reading of Gurbanee .Any one from any place irresepective of Creed/Caste/religion can read SGGS .
The important question is related to interpretation of Gurbanee.In fact persons with different background of faith try to interprate Gurbanee in their own ways.Whereas the real Gurmati view may be quite different from their understanding.
Therefore any one making interpretation of Gurbanee should be first familiar with the understanding of Gurbanee messages as per Gurmati view.
Prakash.S.Bagga
 
Mar 30, 2012
19
34
No one is rstricting the reading of Gurbanee .Any one from any place irresepective of Creed/Caste/religion can read SGGS .
The important question is related to interpretation of Gurbanee.In fact persons with different background of faith try to interprate Gurbanee in their own ways.Whereas the real Gurmati view may be quite different from their understanding.
Therefore any one making interpretation of Gurbanee should be first familiar with the understanding of Gurbanee messages as per Gurmati view.
Prakash.S.Bagga
In how many languages, Gurbani has been translated? Are there any spiritual centers where people of any religions are free to know and discuss about Gurbani. Why Sikhism has not expanded beyond Indian shores? There may be some adherents from other religions and nationalities but they are few. Spiritual knowledge is universal and persons spiritual in nature from any religion or nationality can understand the esoteric knowledge. Real Gurmati view is same as spiritual truth taught by saints from other religions.
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
Dec 21, 2010
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vipkolon ji you may want to pay attention to the thread topic and specifics. This ranting about our Guru ji the same as all other saints (there are no saints in Sikhism). The ranting about Hinduism knowledge and Sikhism Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji being the same is covered as a distraction in many a threads with counter-productive results of taking threads off-topic. You may want to start own thread about all this in the Interfaith section.
In how many languages, Gurbani has been translated?
This is a self help forum. Do the research rather than pose incessant questions. Try to add value and clarity, not confusion.

Questions come thousand a Rupee/Dollar/Pound, meaningful answers are harder.
Are there any spiritual centers where people of any religions are free to know and discuss about Gurbani.
If you feel a necessity for this why not open one. When you complain about others remember you are complaining about self as a Sikh.
Why Sikhism has not expanded beyond Indian shores?
Sikhism is not based on proselytism. We share openly but do not convert directly or indirectly.
Spiritual knowledge is universal and persons spiritual in nature from any religion or nationality can understand the esoteric knowledge.
The issues are not in the knowledge but how sharing is practiced. Brahmins hoarding it and controlling. The Christians asking to believe versus learn. The Muslims pushing to believe as it is word of Allah. Sikhism does none of these. It encourages understanding to those who want to understand and helps along the way to enable such but not to convert or lead in blind faith.
Real Gurmati view is same as spiritual truth taught by saints from other religions.
Again go to the interfaith forum and perhaps start a suitable thread and expand on your thoughts. There may be value but Sikhs have no saints so I don't see the purpose of comparing Apples to Oranges.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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