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What would an ideal Reilgion according to you ?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by Neutral Singh, Aug 31, 2004.

  1. Neutral Singh

    Neutral Singh
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    Fateh Ji,

    My favorite question... :)

    What according to you, would constitute a generally ideal religion ? Please do not feel offended as this is just a general question. Thank you.

    Please Discuss.
     
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  3. Arvind

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    Instead of naming an existing religion to serve a quick purpose, I leave this job to readers to find the best fit for a religion, which should have following characteristics, which should:
    1. encourage rational thinking
    2. equality
    3. disciplined life streamlined by certain principles
    4. encourage to learn more about the indescribable Supreme Power
    5. encourage betterment of self and surroundings

    As u see, the list above is incomplete, but bringing out a few points.

    Regards.
     
  4. Neutral Singh

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    1. Rational Thinking
    Rationally speaking why is there a need of a Supreme Power/Diety in an Ideal
    Reilgion ?

    2. Equality.
    Is equality really possible... Sikhism also believe in survival of the fittest. So, dont you think eqality part is also sometimes compromised.

    3. disciplined life streamlined by certain principles
    Why we need principles... I am talking about ethics as everything happens according to the will of God.

    4. encourage to learn more about the indescribable Supreme Power
    see first point.

    5. encourage betterment of self and surroundings
    What better you are talking about ? Spiritual or Worldly ? How would that be different from Maya or materialism ?

    Regards
     
  5. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    I have no idea what an ideal religion would be. However I know what the ideal way of life is.:)
     
  6. Arvind

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    Tejwant ji,
    Off-topic: Please shed more light on the ideal way of life u mentioned.
    Thanks.
     
  7. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Arvind ji,


    The ideal way of life is the path of sikhi which is based on Naam Japnah, Kirat Karni, Vand kei Chaknah.

    I used to consider Sikhi a religion but not any more.It is a way oflife towards total freedom with no strings attached.

    Tejwant
     
  8. Arvind

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    And this way of life leads to Morning Nitnem, sukhmani Sahib and Evening Nitnem as breakfast, lunch and dinner respectively, without 'something' is always missing in the daily life. The Gurubani paath seem to start happening consciously and unconsciously, making us puppets by 'someone' who uses our body for getting that done!
    No strings attached... sab kuch tera, tera, tera!!!
     
  9. Critical Singh

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    When we call Sikh 'Dharma', does this means Sikh Religion or a Way of Life ?
     
  10. Eclectic

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    An ideal religion for me would be one that encourages an individual to do as much searching that may help with the contentment and happiness of the soul. Happiness varies for each individual. But I would also expect the religion to have a general rule about intentionally hurting others as something that is most definately not praised. I would also think an ideal religion isn't one that would dictate and force someone to do something, but rather offer suggestions and various ways to reach or find happiness. I don't think one should be punished for not believing in certain mythologies of the faith. What is most important should be how one lives their life.
     
  11. drkhalsa

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    I totally agree and believe taht we cant achieve anything from any religion and sikhi is not a religion as per my belief and understanding and just to say it took me many years to make such understanding

    namustun ajatai, namustun apatai
    namustun amujbai, namustsut ajabai. (17)
    O Lord, we salute You. You are Casteless and without lineage and religion. You are wonderfully Handsome Personality. (17)
    --------------Jap Sahib------------------------
     
  12. thecoopes

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    Good afternoon fellow humans.
    I as you can read am not a Sikh, but I am very interested to know what Sikh's believe. I hope you don't mind me using this forum on "What would be an ideal religion" to ask my questions but it appears to offer interesting scope.
    NB: Sorry but why is everyone called Singh?


    What do Sikh’s believe as to a supreme being?

    Also is any religion relevant to the 21st century?



    I ask this as from as early as history goes back mankind has had religious inclinations with good and bad being a part of our common experiences, so that we have devout God worshiping people that have perpetrated some of the vilest of crimes against humanity while those that have no religious beliefs have been some of the kindest people on the planet.



    Indeed believing in a god, rather than unifying all peoples has made the individuals mind more susceptible to carry out indescribable acts of evil against their fellow man in a misguided belief that they alone are on the pathway to the true God.



    I have not seen any religion that I would want to be a part of! All religions that have any humans, as priests are more than likely to be corrupt, as all men are flawed and imperfect and could not possibly be a mediator between any god and their fellow man!



    Over to you if you feel there is an explanation.



    Kind regards





    John C
     
  13. drkhalsa

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    Welcome Dear Thecoopes







    1, Everybody is called Singh here

    because in SIKH Religion every male uses Singh ( means LION) as surname or family name as every body is considered Son of same god and for females KAUR is similarly used





    2. What do Sikh’s believe as to a supreme being?







    ikh believe in ONE Supreme Being and it is considered that it is same Supreme Being that has sent Jesus , Mohammed, Moses and also our TEN GURU JI which started shaped the sikh religion and this suoreme being is called AKAL PURAKH ( Eternal Being)





    So in sikh religion there is no such belief that god has been revealed to Sikhs exclusively as thought by some religion .In sikh religion it is considered that God is ever manifested and all these religion are only ways to realise it



    Also is any religion relevant to the 21st century?



    As per my understanding every religion is relevant if it can be followed in a true sense as it was meant to be followed



    About sikh religion I can tell you that it is relevant if it is followed as our GURUJI has taught us

    Also our Guruji made it a point to lay the guidlines and their message themselves with their own hand and passed it on to Present day sikhs so that in sikh religion every thing could be followed as it was meant to be ( Just to make a note message of Jesus was recorded by his disciples long time after the jesus Message of mohammed was recorde 20 years after his death )



    Now it is upto Sikhs if they can follow their GURUJI's message than offcourse Sikh religion is Relevant even in next 10 centuries !!!













    Yu have a point there now lets see what sikh religion say about that



    In Sikh religion no body is born SIKH but very body has to be initiated into it at his own will and understanding and once you are sikh you could excommunicated any time if you dont follow it or go off the way



    So Sikh religion has to Literally earned by invidual and it is not a family gift given to every child born in the family





    now as you said religious people perpeating some of the vilest of crimes against humanity these are the people how has got label of religion as

    their family hier and who follow their own minute brain in name of religion considering their own religion to be supreme



    As I told you in sikhism religion is only a way ( path) to realise god so how can one way be superior to other as all are leading to same destination

    offcourse how truly you follow the path which ever it si makes all the difference



    now about people having no religious belief being some kindest people on earth as I was mentioning religion is just like label attached to various ways of realising god but same could be done even without label and it is manifested in the way of person life



    In sikhism the whole emphasis is on the way of life basica\ly sikhism could be called a way of life as there is no emphasis on any rituals and meaning less practices

    being a sikh the most prominent and integral part should be doing selfless service to fellow human beings and it goes well beyond being kind to fellow beings







    You have seen many religion but probably you havent seen Sikh religion :p



    In sikh religion



    1 there is no such class like priest so no mediator every body has to do his own devotional service :)



    2 sikhs worship only the supreme being ( that is universal to all humanity) and no human being ( not even our 10 GURUJI as they just act as guide and role models to us ) so again no mediator between sikh and supreme being :)



    3 Sikh litreally means a student so any body following their own religion in true sense is a sikh on his way so sikhs consider every body equal no matter which religion he is following :) :)





    So I think if these are the things troubling you than you can think of being part of sikh religion :) :)

    I think this may be of help to you and you are always welcomed to ask any thing else


    Jatinder Singh
     
  14. thecoopes

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    Dear Jatinder Singh



    Thanks for your explanation in respect to the Sikh religion. While I find your way of belief to be more palatable than any of the religions I have looked at so far, I refer to people who believe that they alone have the answers and everyone else is dammed or an infidel [Christian and Islamic teachings that they alone are the way!]



    I still have major problems with any of mankind’s understanding of a God.



    The forum asked the question. “What would be your ideal religion”?



    I would at this time say. “One without god”.



    The reasons are these:



    1. No matter what you believe today including Sikhism, all teachings have been handed down and are interpreted by the individual or group and therefore are subject to someone’s understanding of what they believe this god person wants them to do. So we have the spectre of Muslims blowing themselves up because they believe that this is what God wants and this piece below that I copied from a Sikh website to show you that Sikh’s too are subject to the same problems.



    Wahe Guru Ji ka Khlasa Wahe guru Ji Ki Fateh Is this how we pay our respect to Guru Arjun Dev Ji's on this Saheedee Gurpurb?????? My family and I are outraged at the vicious attack made on women and Children at Gurdwara Guru Hargobind Sahib in Coventry. How can 30 plus men, with swords, daggers, hammers, screw drivers and shields come in start hacking women and children???? Many of the attackers were dressed in the Khalsa's Bahnna wearing round turbans and the 5 K's. Many were seen removing them as the poice came in. After detailed investigations and taking to eye witnesses, it is clear that this was all organised by outside agencies. What was the Chairman of the Indian Congress Party doing there, when he has never ever been to the Gurdwara?? What were other members ( commitee members) of the Indian Community Centre doing there weilding naked swords doing at the Temple, when they have never been there previously? What were members of the Babar Khalsa doing with these people?? We all know the aftermath following 1984 in India, but when these things start to happen in the UK, what are we to do??? Many sikhs came to the UK to avoid torture in India, but now where do they and their children go? What are YOU going to do??? Khalsa ji.....do not turn your back to this, bad things only happen when good people walk away. We are all RESPONSIBLE!!!



    2. Good people are good whether they are Sikh, Muslim, Christian, or any of the pantheon of religions. They are equally bad no matter what religion they are in. The religion has not been the reason for being good, indeed what would be the answer if you asked any Sikh this question. “Are you a good person because you are a Sikh or is it that you feel that it is right to be good”?

    3. Why is it that in any religion and I assume it to be true of the Sikh faith, that the way to find this god person is one of extreme difficulty! Hence we have all the confused faiths of the world pointing in different directions to what they believe is the way. (I take your point though that the Sikh faith does not believe that they are the sole custodians of the eternal truth and all others are dammed) but it still remains that to find God is very hard and if God isn like a father to us in the same manner that you and I could be fathers then why would he make it so difficult? You wouldn’t do that to your children who were looking for you would you?

    4. Do you think the world would be a better place if all were Sikh?



    NB: I find that all having the name Singh would lend itself to feeling part of a universal brotherhood that should make it difficult to commit a wrong against your brother?



    Very best wishes



    John Singh! No sorry got carried away there John Cooper

    NB: Would I be allowed to visit a Sikh temple? There's one near where I work in Dudley.:roll:
     
  15. drkhalsa

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    Dear John



    As you asked About visting Sikh temple ( GURUDWARA) every body is most welcome in GURUDWARA without any consideration of creed ,race and religion


    You are very right in saying that a badperson is always bad whether he is sikh muslim or christian

    member of sikh community do involve in such activities and create confusion and I dont know about this particular event you have mentioned but I do believe this and such happens

    As i guess as you said they were people in traditional dress of sikhs and with swords and it waas related to 1984 events ( when around 27000 sikhs were massacared in india ) what can say is people who suffred in these killings are very sensetive to issue but if they are senselessly trying to create scene that Offcourse it is against their own religion Sikhism

    You are right in saying that considering what religion has craeted a mess apresent moment in time any sane person will think that humanity is better off any religion

    But no religion is gain a religion in atrue sense again you are in same category and there will bw people hating you ( religious people ) and offcouse people of your group willl hate them so you rae in the same game :{-:)

    .
    You rae right in a sense Now let me tell you what i have learned from sikh religion


    Teachings of Sikh guru were given by them ( 10 gurus) what they said they lived themselves also according to it uptil their last breath . They were not mere messanger but the messanger who lived the message ( all of them) just to show us how to live the message and I think it is the best method available to human to learn by example so Guruji not only delivered the message but also lived the message and set example for our ease

    I am not saying that misunderstanding are not their but what I am saying that this path of sikhism has minimal chance of that but yes they rae there and I believe that these are due to non adhrence of people to original principle

    Yes very right people are good whether they rae sikh, muslim , christian

    Consider this a good muslim is good as far as he is dealing with fellow muslims but whe he deals with non muslim he has to consider him {censored word, do not repeat.} ( non bekiever no matter how truly he follows his own religion . According to Muslim Law ( Sharia) kafirs dont have equal right and their only destiny is to become muslim


    A good christian is good to aextent that he will consider you a human being but whoes sins havent been redemed by jesus and also their is no other way out so he cant treat you equally as long as he follows his religion stictly



    in sikh religoion if man is not following his principles properly than their is a chance that he may discrimanate somebody but as he start following it more and more he becomes more and more open more and more tolerant so as he progresses in religion his brither increases

    while as muslim or christian become more and more devoute it start troubling him and creates more problem and the emphasis start shifting from working on self to working on suuroundings that is persuading other to be like them


    So this the reason I like SKH Religion

    ( note :all I said reflect my personal understanding and not views of forum or sikhs in general )


    In sikh religion the way to realise god is as simple as eating food as simple as walking on a road ,as simple as taking to fellow human

    The supreme being in sikhism is not seprated from his craetion it is just like ocean and craetion is its waves and it all depend on waves how time and difficulty they go through to realise this

    The way to god realisation in sikhism is to live a normal life of your as every body lives but with different counciousness , they same activites you do but with different counsciousness .

    Difficulty arises whwn you follow set rituals to make god happy and this confusion not sikhi principle

    as sikh I consider every thing and being around me to part of supreme being and he is the only doer and I can only be instument of his activity

    I totally agree with you that if way to realise god is so difficult then obviosly it is wrong Our Father hasent made it difficult but our understanding have made it difficult
    In sikhism it is considered that every religion is pointing to same direction and that is of supreme GOD


    Personally I dont consider SIKH as religion but as universal way of living
    I was born in SIKH Family but didnt came accross sikhism personally after many year of personal search .Just exactly like you I considered religion itself a big evil and i used to read Rajneesh osho , Krishnamurti and many such spirtual writer but when i found that infact sikh is not religion a literal sense as it doesnot fit in the category and it is religion that it is the only religion for the same reason

    even our guruji has clearly said that realising god is beyond any method path and religion so it gave me my answer and still I am in the process of learning it


    To me religion gives me the way , the standard , the exent of good I can do to others

    to do community service to my fellow human beings guruji taught to do selfless service , free kitchen service(LANGAR ) , economic help to needy brothers (DASWANDH) as our guruji themselves did

    to fight for our own rights and rights of fellow beings ( Our 9 th guruji gave his own life to save the religious rights of other religion i.e hindu religion )

    to serve sick people even when your own lifw is at risk ( 7 th guruji died serving patients of small pox in india )


    SO living as sikh it just gives me way and inspiration to live my life as good human beings.

    I just kept on writing what ever came to my mind so forgive me if is way to odd and off the topic :shock: :{-:) :) :)


     
  16. thecoopes

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    Dear Jatinder please could you explain why you always end a discussion with.



    O my God, please be Merciful, and bless Nanak with the support, the life and wealth of the Naam. (naam aDhaar jeevan Dhan naanak parabh mayray kirpaa keejai. )
    I don’t have a problem with this but I wonder does a Sikh have to invoke this sentence at the end of a discussion or is it just a pleasant conclusion like God bless and keep you?

    Could you also explain what it means?



    What I find I dislike about religions is when they are forced by rote to chant a pre mind control phrase. For example if a Muslim uses the name of Mohammed they always say “Peace and blessings be upon him.” Itself is innocuous as a collection of words but its power as a mind control tool for a mass of ignorant people is powerful.



    NB: Do you think that the other people who were commenting on this original question of

    “what would be your ideal religion” will be annoyed we are using this forum to discuss the broader question of Sikh religion? Do you think we should open a new one so I don’t clog this up with my questions?



    Best wishes



    John C
     
  17. drkhalsa

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    Dear John

    I clearly understand what you want to convey about this qoute thing

    In this forum their is option of using the signature after every post you put in it is automatically attached to it .I change it regularly but it has been while I havent done so .
    the purpose of this for me is that when ever I find a qoute from GURU GRANTH SAHIB which is present GURU (Guide) of sikhs and really like it so I put it in signature for sharing it with otheron forum and also for myself to get its meaning absorbed in my living (... at least I try to do so :) )
    it is not a fixed thing any thing inspiration can be written

    Meaning of this I will try to explain

    it is like we pray to god for evry thing like job, money ......(all material things)

    now i have enjoyed all he as ever given me amd I am curious about knowning more , uniting with god himself so whom to pray for?
    in Sikhism it is again god

    so in this qoute I am praying god to help me on this devotional path of realisation


    The word NAM I am asking for in qoute means lterally WORD it is the same word ( according to my understanding ) that jesus has said

    God is the Word. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God


    their is similar concept in sikh religion just to give example

    This Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Jap on Pannaa 4
    (Part of Morning SIKH Prayer )

    Countless names, countless places.
    Inaccessible, unapproachable, countless celestial realms.
    Even to call them countless is to carry the weight on your head.
    From the Word, comes the Naam; from the Word, comes Your Praise.
    From the Word, comes spiritual wisdom, singing the Songs of Your Glory.
    From the Word, come the written and spoken words and hymns.
    From the Word, comes destiny, written on one's forehead.
    But the One who wrote these Words of Destiny-no words are written on His Forehead.
    As He ordains, so do we receive.
    The created universe is the manifestation of Your Name.
    Without Your Name, there is no place at all.
    How can I describe Your Creative Power?
    I cannot even once be a sacrifice to You.
    Whatever pleases You is the only good done,
    You, Eternal and Formless One. ||19||

    About the pre minded phrases you are right in saying if they repaetedly said without even knowing what it stand for serve the perpose of mind control

    I agre such techniques are used by religion when they want kind of recruitment in their religion

    but a similsrthing can even happen for real in very valid sense like
    you are in love with some lady :) in sense that you start repaeting her name conciously and uncounciously in every task day and night then an observer will think of two possibility
    1 you are just showing off without any real sense of love
    2 you are really in love ( ;) only if understand this )


    Similar is situation in religion there loads of fake lovers ( who just show off)of god and some rear genuine lover of gods ( who cant help taking name of god )

    but it is very difficult to differentiate :confused: but believe me they do exist and they are not just the myth :)

    for this also we sikhs pray to god to give us the company of real god lovers ( SADH SANGAT)

    So to conclude in sikhism EVERY THING IS FROM GOD whether it is material , psychological and other wise and only way is to pray to god just like the impertance of PRAYER in Christianity

    Whike I dont think so it will be a problem but if any body pointed out then we will shift to new post:ice:



    And once gain lot of thanks to you
    as talking to you many new ideas from outside and from my brain pop up into my counciousnes and help me in increasing my understanding


    Regards
    Jatinder Singh
     
  18. muslim

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    Sorry but I honestly have to say islam. Isnt this question just asking us whether or not we believe our religion to be perfect? so if you have posted a reply are just saying that you dnt believe your religion to be perfect and if so why do you follow it.
     
  19. Neutral Singh

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    Dear muslim, Can you define Perfect ?
    Thanks
     
  20. drkhalsa

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    Please dont feel sorry , It is ok if you want you want to share your honest feelings as this is forum has been launched for the same purpose

    Please do reply and tell us more about you r religion Islam and how you think it could ever be called perfect

    with regards
    Jatinder Singh
     
  21. thecoopes

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    Dear friends wasn’t it Marx that said religion is the opium of the people. If you want to control large numbers of people then you need a powerful mind control tool, freedom to think and reason is surrendered to others usually a higher echelon like political leaders in the case of communism or to priests or imams in the case of religious control. The need to make a decision based on a moral dilemma is decided upon by these whom we allow to set our values and interpret what God wants us to do. Therefore any act of repugnant barbarism can be carried out in the name of our religious belief because we don’t have to think as we have handed our minds over to another. Ergo I can kill you because my religion views you as an infidel.



    So discussion boards like this are the enemies of mind control and allow us to question the logic of our beliefs on a broad plane.



    I would say to our Muslim friend that first we are all humans and for any religious group to claim that God is their personal possession and that their religious leaders are the sole custodians of Gods truths is laughable. (We are insignificant little nothings in a vast universe Our Milky Way galaxy of stars is so huge that even at the speed of light it would take 100,000 years to travel across it!)



    More blood has been shed throughout the centuries over narrow minded elitism in religious beliefs than in any other single cause.



    So any group that makes this claim is deluding themselves as this religious indoctrination is common to the main religions of the world, so just shouting the loudest that yours is the truth means diddle squat.



    If it is possible for man to have a relationship with his creator then it must be on a personal level with each one being responsible before God for his actions. I firmly believe that each of us will be judged by what we did in respect to all our fellow man and simply saying to this creator that I did what my priest or Imam told me was right will be no defence. No more than the Nazi’s at Nuremburg were let off because they said they were only following orders!



    So think for yourself discuss with others and be prepared to hear things we may not like but our hearts know has the ring of truth.





    A nice thought from Islam Salaamulaikum, for this to be wished upon our fellow humans means we need to be carriers of peace.



    John C
     

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