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what is wrong

Discussion in 'Gurmat Vichaar' started by gogi, Jun 13, 2007.

  1. gogi

    gogi
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    Was It Pre destined?

    A question that has been my constant companion for quite some time is “ As to why do we do wrong or commit something that is branded as wrong as per sikhi”.

    I have been asking this from many persons but all of them laughed at and never answered. The search is on. It has been stated that everything is as per destiny and most rather all of things are preordained. Let us have a look as to how Gurbani tells us.

    From the Word, comes destiny that is written on one's forehead[1]. More so, even the union with Him, and separation from Him, come by His Will. We come to receive what is written in our destiny.[2] Those who have not sought the Sanctuary of the True Guru and the Sangat, the Holy Congregation-cursed are their lives, and cursed are their hopes of life[3] but those humble servants of the Lord who have attained the Company of the True Guru, have pre-ordained destiny inscribed on their foreheads[4]. By destiny, I shall meet with the Guru. Those who have such destiny come to meet the True Guru[5]. I repeat that it is by perfect good fortune, one meets the True Guru when one's destiny shows this.[6] Even same can be said to be meeting the Sangat or the holy congregation.

    We also enter into the realm of the Lord's Love if that is pre ordained[7]. The Flower and the Fruit of the Lord's Love are obtained by destiny only.[8] We all act according to the pre-ordained destiny that no one can erase[9].
    No one shall be absorbed in His love unless it is pre-ordained. Even those Gurmukhs who pre-ordained destiny written on their foreheads will remain absorbed in the Lord's Love[10].
    Everything seems to be pre-destined. Right from the meeting of the Guru and remembering Him and finally getting out of the mess of Maya. It all seems to be under the wider game plan of the nature. Thus our all actions towards religion and spirituality are pre destined. We do not seem to possess any free will. All that we can do is to act per the Gurmat and expect nothing or hope for nothing.

    However, doing anything that may not be approved by Gurmat will also fall with in the Zone of something pre destined. In that case why should one believe that
    one can get out of the re-incarnation cycle out Of turn. He must have planned something for us in any case as to when we shall be out of these incarnations. I shall be grateful If some one can give a take of SGGS ji as to how to bring destiny in our favor so that we also get something as early as possible. Is there anything in Gurmat that suggests that one can get something out Of turn.

    The question thus boils down as to whether I have the capacity to go out of my powers and do something that is not pre- destined. If not, then what ever I do shall be as per Destiny. Even If it is wrong it will be as per destiny. Thus the future Lives will also get decided on the basis of the present actions that were completely pre-destined. Where is the role of poor intellect to improve upon?

    I hope even that I write to you is also predestined. If so what is the worth of mankind to act as per that is not pre-destioned. Life shall continue as per pre decided pattern and shall take me as per that is pre destined and the same shall be applicable to most of us or rather all of us.

    The basic question that remains to be answered is that we act 'wrong' because it is pre destined. How can we say that all goods are pre destined and all bads are our doing. ?

    Would like to be guided.






    [1]AKrw isir sMjogu vKwix(4-8, jpu, mÚ 1)

    [2] sMjogu ivjogu duie kwr clwvihlyKy Awvih Bwg ] (6-19, jpu, mÚ 1)

    [3] jo siqgur srix sMgiq nhI Awey iDRgu jIvy iDRgu jIvwis ]3] (10-6, gUjrI, mÚ 4)

    [4] ijn hir jn siqgur sMgiq pweI iqn Duir msqik iliKAw ilKwis ] (10-7, gUjrI, mÚ 4)

    [5] ijn kau pUrib iliKAw iqn sqguru imilAw Awie ]4] (27-10, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)

    [6] pUrY Bwig sqguru imlY jw BwgY kw audau hoie ] (31-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)

    [7]pUrib ilKq ilKy guru pwieAw min hir ilv mMfl mMfw hy ]1] (13-9, gauVI pUrbI, mÚ

    [8]Pulu Bwau Plu iliKAw pwie ] (25-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

    [9] pUrib iliKAw kmwvxw koie n mytxhwru ]3] (27-8, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)

    [10] Duir msqik ijn kau iliKAw sy gurmuiK rhy ilv lwie ]1] rhwau ] (27-15, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
     
    #1 gogi, Jun 13, 2007
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2007
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  3. roopk

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    As long as the destiny written upon my forehead was not activated, I wandered around lost, running in all directions.
    I was drowning in the horrible world-ocean of this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, and my remorse would never have ended.
    O Mat'huraa, consider this essential truth: to save the world, the Lord INCARNATED Himself.

    Whoever meditates on Guru Arjun Dayv, shall not have to pass through the painful womb of reincarnation ever again. ||6||(ang 1409)

    I think the quote at ang 1409 should give some kind Of an answer. Many learned will also opine.
     
    #2 roopk, Jun 13, 2007
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2007
  4. simpy

    simpy
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    Respected Saadh Sangat Ji,

    answer to this is -ONE IS NOT FOLLOWING GURU JI's WORD- NOT LIVING IN HUKAM........





    paapi punni aakhan naahi kar kar karna likh le jah aapey beej aapey hi khah.............

    munda santokh saram pat jholi dhyaan ki kareh bhibhoot
    khintha kaal kuaari kayaa jugat dandaa parteet.............

    (japuji sahib, we read it everyday)

    and many many more Guru Ji's WORD.............

    Eh tan dharti beej karma karo salil apaaoo sarangpani
    Man kirsaan riday jamaai le…………………

    Amal kar dharti beej sabdo kare…………………..


    this is what me neech thinks, Dhan Dhan Guru JI answers every possible question..................

    humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness
     
  5. Parma

    Parma United Kingdom
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    Life is a progression. Your destiny is that you will die, but you dont know how you will die this is progression. If I study hard Im destined to learn, but will i be able to teach what I have learned that would be progression. Simply when it comes to other faiths aswell. Jesus was destined to be born, but they also say he was tempted. Now had he followed his temptations he would have progressed to sin and not be destined to be a savour. Its a balance, i'd say of pregression then of the fruits you receive you are destined. Just like if I train and workout, I'll have a good body, its the progression of the training that has led me to have the good body destined. No doubt if you play with fire your bound to get burned. If it makes sense sound, if not fine!!! Will please let me know if the gurbarni comes out with the same answer please!! Common sense when you look at it this way? ainit??:confused::advocate::rofl!!:
     
  6. roopk

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    I think the best way of this would be to see if 'Gurbani' offers any 'free- will' to human being . If the answere is yes, one can state that the man had his choice to do the thing in the best manner to his spritual advantage. If the answer is other wise , it can be stated that there is no chouce except to do as per gurmat and and leave everything to the Almighty. It is also fairly well known that Our theory Of Karma is not well defined and pointed.

    Destiny cannot be changed. It has been stated more than 100 places and more than 10 places have already been quoted in the question. Surinder ji, ,if it is convenient to her, may kindly like to point if there is some element Of free will in human actions as pewr 'Gurbani'.
     
    #5 roopk, Jun 14, 2007
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2007
  7. Parma

    Parma United Kingdom
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    There must be some free will. Think about it, if there is no free will then there cant be any religion faith or anything. Whats the point of the gurus teaching anything for we cant change as we are destined. The will of god. So to change your ideas to think the way they have taught you to think would also be against the will of god as well, wouldnt it, as you are breaking the mould of who you are and changing your ways. Breaking your destiny and then gods will! Whats the point in working! Whats the point in anything!! All stops as we are waiting for destiny. To furfill a destiny you must have some free will otherwise i guess you would stay seated wherever you are! I dont know I hope gurbarni has some answers otherwise its all over isnt it!!!
     
  8. simpy

    simpy
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    Respected and Righteous Roopk Ji,

    What me neech can tell you, you know all.... Today's Hukamnaama says it all OUTLOUD anyways........................

    after reading your post in this thread and after reading respected hukamnaama, me neech thinks that it all depends on what is your definition of FREEWILL.


    forgive me please
     
  9. simpy

    simpy
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    Respected Saadh Sangat Ji,

    Guru Sahib has said this many times- jo jo beejay so luney, in different ways.In Japji Sahib Guru Sahib Ji tells us how to live our life. And the same is repeated again and again all the way in Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj. If someone still have questions, then we neech can only pray for them. Very sorry if it hurts anybody in any manner. Satguru Di agyaa da paalan- Living His Willand His Will is described starting the very First Panna of Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.If after being a true Sikh, a person doesn't follow that, what can somebody do???????

    like:


    karna ta aap hi paina hai, mannana ta aap hi paina hai, kise ne ta aa ke nahee karnaa .......sahmne pakki pakaaee pai hai, chak ke khaani ta aap hi paini hai.....

    ikv sicAwrw hoeIAY ikv kUVY qutY pwil ]hukim rjweI clxw nwnk iliKAw nwil ]
    hukmY AMdir sBu ko bwhir hukm n koie ]nwnk hukmY jy buJY q haumY khY n koie ]

    kQnw kQI n AwvY qoit ]kiQ kiQ kQI kotI koit koit ]dydw dy lYdy Qik pwih ]jugw jugMqir KwhI Kwih ]hukmI hukmu clwey rwhu ]nwnk ivgsY vyprvwhu ]swcw swihbu swcu nwie BwiKAw Bwau Apwru ]AwKih mMgih dyih dyih dwiq kry dwqwru ]Pyir ik AgY rKIAY ijqu idsY drbwru ]muhO ik bolxu bolIAY ijqu suix Dry ipAwru ]AMimRq vylw scu nwau vifAweI vIcwru ]krmI AwvY kpVw ndrI moKu duAwru ]nwnk eyvY jwxIAY sBu Awpy sicAwru ]

    Awpy Awip inrMjnu soie ]ijin syivAw iqin pwieAw mwnu ]nwnk gwvIAY guxI inDwnu ]gwvIAY suxIAY min rKIAY Bwau ]

    jyqI isriT aupweI vyKw ivxu krmw ik imlY leI ]miq ivic rqn jvwhr mwixk jy iek gur kI isK suxI]

    jy iqsu ndir n AwveI q vwq n puCY ky ]kItw AMdir kItu kir dosI dosu Dry ]nwnk inrguix guxu kry guxvMiqAw guxu dy ]qyhw koie n suJeI ij iqsu guxu koie kry ]..


    .......................If after reading all this a Sikh does not understand what Guru Ji is talking about, then me neech can only remember Guru Ji's words:

    kbIr swcw siqguru ikAw krY jau isKw mih cUk ]
    AMDy eyk n lwgeI ijau bWsu bjweIAY PUk]


    humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness



    rwj lIlw qyrY nwim bnweI ]jogu binAw qyrw kIrqnu gweI ]1]srb suKw bny qyrY El@Y ]BRm ky prdy siqgur Kol@y ]1] rhwau ]hukmu bUiJ rMg rs mwxy ]siqgur syvw mhw inrbwxy ]3]ijin qUM jwqw so igrsq audwsI prvwxu ]nwim rqw soeI inrbwxu ]2]jw kau imilE nwmu inDwnw ]Bniq nwnk qw kw pUr Kjwnw ]4]

    __________________
     
  10. simpy

    simpy
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    another one of Guru Ji's word that is telling what to do for us moors:

    gauVI cyqI mhlw 1 ] AauKD mMqR mUlu mn eykY jy kir idRVu icqu kIjY ry ] jnm jnm ky pwp krm ky kwtnhwrw lIjY ry ]1] mn eyko swihbu BweI ry ] qyry qIin guxw sMswir smwvih AlKu n lKxw jweI ry ]1] rhwau ] skr KMfu mwieAw qin mITI hm qau pMf aucweI ry ] rwiq AnyrI sUJis nwhI lju tUkis mUsw BweI ry ]2] mnmuiK krih qyqw duKu lwgY gurmuiK imlY vfweI ry ] jo iqin kIAw soeI hoAw ikrqu n myitAw jweI ry ]3] suBr Bry n hovih aUxy jo rwqy rMgu lweI ry ] iqn kI pMk hovY jy nwnku qau mUVw ikCu pweI ry ]4]

    gauVI cyqI mhlw 1 ] AauKD mMqR mUlu mn eykY jy kir idRVu icqu kIjY ry ] jnm jnm ky pwp krm ky kwtnhwrw lIjY ry ]1] mn eyko swihbu BweI ry ] qyry qIin guxw sMswir smwvih AlKu n lKxw jweI ry ]1] rhwau ] skr KMfu mwieAw qin mITI hm qau pMf aucweI ry ] rwiq AnyrI sUJis nwhI lju tUkis mUsw BweI ry ]2] mnmuiK krih qyqw duKu lwgY gurmuiK imlY vfweI ry ] jo iqin kIAw soeI hoAw ikrqu n myitAw jweI ry ]3] suBr Bry n hovih aUxy jo rwqy rMgu lweI ry ] iqn kI pMk hovY jy nwnku qau mUVw ikCu pweI ry ]4]

    Gurmukhi Translations(Bhai Sahib Bhai Sahib Singh Ji):



    English Translations(SikhiToTHeMax):


    humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness
     
  11. Parma

    Parma United Kingdom
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    Surinder ji, I like what you've written. Any chance you would be so kind to translate it all into english for sikhs who are learning, but it doesnt make the idea of destiny and Free-will any clearer.
    If we are all pre-ordained then whats the point of progress? Seems like nothing I will ever do will be good enough to leave the process of life and birth, as it may not be in my destiny. Whats the point in changing and believing anymore still going to hell!!! HOPE IS LOST BY THIS PROCESS OF THOUGHT!! I Thought you could acheive mukthi via sikhism> looks like no matter how hard i try, even if I give it my all!! It wont happen if its not meant to be!! Saying that if I still dont understand then you will pray for me is no good, because I need to understand. In other words the sikh community gives up and thats why it wont increase no one is willing to explain. To promote or develop. Otherwise all people, not just me, will turn somewhere else for there answers Other religions maybe. In the end when people have stopped gaining answers things dont grow and in the end the knowledge is not passed on and the knowledge of what all the gurus did to gain and distribute is lost forever!! Please be clearer on this subject for this humble minded soul. Thanking you in abundance!!!
     
  12. roopk

    roopk
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    Originally Posted by gogi
    “ As to why do we do wrong or commit something that is branded as wrong as per sikhi”. I have been asking this from many persons but all of them laughed at and never answered.



    Surinder ji,

    I think the question asked is simple. The question is
    " as to why anyone comits wrong.'"
    Is it destined to be so as nothing can happen unless He wills it to be so.

    I am sure that ,with your knowledge Of sikhism , you may like to check as to why the first wrong happens in the first place ,may be, million years ago or may be more.

    Can I meet HIM today.
    Probably not as HE has not destined it like this.

    But I can do my prayers as HE has destined .

    If I fall sick , I may miss prayers .

    Thus I have committed a wrong by not prayoing even though I would have wished it other wise.
    He wanted me to fall sick and the consequences follows natuirally.

    You have a wonderful memory and can quote something that may say that I had some free will still to do my prayers.
    It is just an example that I have cited. There may be much more oppurunities where I may do something that is not as per Sikhi values.
    I am in agreemet with Mr. Parma when he says that we must have some element of free will so that we can be held responsible for that we do.
     
  13. simpy

    simpy
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    Respected Saadh Sangat Ji,

    Guru's Word must be precious for a Sikh..................

    and Guru Ji says:

    Sevak Sikh Poojan Sabh aavey Sab gaavey Har Har Uttam Bani Gaaveyaa Suneyaa tin ka thaaey pavey jin Satguru Ki aagyaa Sat Sat Kar Maani.......

    Gurmukh And Manmukh, both terms have been mentioned By Dhan Dhan Guru Sahib very many times...........

    and as a Sikh, this is our duty to follow Guru Ji's instructions faithfully........

    Suneyaa Manneyaa Man Keeta bhao...........

    Bharam Ke Parde Satguru kholey.....................

    A Sikh's Destiny is Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji............

    If a nonSikh has thoughts of judging Guru Ji's word, we can only pray for them........

    If a Sikh has thoughts of judging Guru Ji's word, Guru Ji says about them: slaam jabaab dovay karey mundho ghuthaa jaaey..............Saacha Satgur Keyaa Karey jo Sikha mein chook.............. and again we can only pray for them.......

    humbly asking for eveybody's forgiveness
     
  14. roopk

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    Dear Parma ji,

    I do not think that we are proceeding at any concrete point. If you refer to gurbani, please refer to it. I shall also refer to and shall repond back if I come across 'free-will' in SGGS ji.

    However, as per my little know of the things there may not be anything like free will as the concept of Karma and the Incarnations etc,.. are not developed in sikhism. We shall have to borrow from the conventional hinduism or Vaishnavism. It shall be a subject of long research.There is no point harping on the same thing time and again.

    You may try to put the question at some other forum where there is wider participation. Here we are just three Of us.

    Regards
     
  15. GuruPyaara

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    indeed
     
  16. simpy

    simpy
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    Respected Saadh Sangat Ji,

    one another thought me neech like to share:

    there is no way a religion or Guru Ji's word is finished or goes down the drain if a few or many people don't like it........Guru Ji always says: it is virlaa/only a few/ who are able to recognize the Truth..........

    Guru is not limited, Word is THE TRUTH, that never dies...... doesn't matter if many don't recognize it.............

    There are lots of people who dont listen to Guru Ji faithfully, it doesn't effect the faith of the faithful............. it simply cannot...........

    Guru Ji is COMPLETE, Guru Ji is God, Guru Ji is everywhere- one need to clear one's sight to recognize Guru Ji............

    that's all for now........
     
  17. roopk

    roopk
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    good knowledge of gurbani but put to improper use.,
     
  18. GuruPyaara

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    no doubts surinder ji. Guru te beitbaari means manmukhta.
     
  19. kaur-1

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    Rook, you might not or might already know this. But try this link to help your understanding.

    Hukam - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.


    There's also been similar question and discussion carried out in this forum. Try the search facility for the various threads as there are several. Some where started in 2004.
     
  20. Parma

    Parma United Kingdom
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    From me understanding the gurubarni. The concept of destiny we have limited to will (The same as thoughts) but gods will is not just thought like me and you!! Does not just exsist in thought out of thought and beyond from my understanding. If everything is done by gods will, then gods will is god. Meaning that god is apart of us all in the way of our destiny. You can do wright, You can do wrong. God is still with you. You cannot describe god. So you may do wrong. You may do wright. God still exsists in all exsists everywhere. In realising this we realise that god's will is destiny as no matter what you do god is still there, its his will. God is within you around you, countless. Even if I think on me, think on you, think on anything, god exsists in that. Like all things pure cannot become something, that, or nothing. No description. Guru nanak is sent to teach on how to worship god as this purity is so great. We worship god for the simple fact that god is great!! Guru nanak came to teach how great god is. How to keep our thoughts mind, body and soul. Must be pure. The destiny will always be there. Will it get better or worse, doesnt matter god is still their. It is a process of thought on god. You cannot change gods will he is in will's. By abidding to guru nanak's teachings, is to keep on light to act and perform in my life regardless for gods will, will always be there. Mukthi or not. That is within god, god is will. God cannot be parted from god's will. There is only one god. Not god and god's will not a difference. Through god you become one with destiny life eternity. Through god all is obtained. To act to get closer to the ultimate source Guru nanak gave the way. To get closer to self realization and after you realize yourself, You realize you was never really here or you was but never really seen! Are you the young child you were born or the old man you will become. What are you? Example; Bad or good, good men can do bad, bad men can do good. Whatever you do god is still there will of god. What are you, just a will of god. Act on the gurbarni to acheive realization of gods will. Which is stated in the gurbarni to be a sikh. To be PURE!! So do you have free will yes, as god is beyond that. He is the will, yet not just the will. Cannot be described by just your will. Like the world, we are apart of the world, yet me or you alone are not the world. Me or you alone are not the whole will of god. For gods will is god. We are Progression of will!! IF THIS IS WRONG PLEASE ADVISE ME>
     
  21. Parma

    Parma United Kingdom
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    Anyone want to add??
     

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