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What is the point of reaching nirvana if there is no God ?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by Neutral Singh, Mar 30, 2005.

  1. Neutral Singh

    Neutral Singh
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    What is the point of reaching nirvana if there is no God to be there to give you something, what is nirvana and how was it created without a Creator ?

    Please enlighten me.
     
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  3. Singhstah

    Singhstah
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    i think the nirvana buddhists beleive in is just gyaan khand and IMHO there is not mch point to try and get to gyaan khand, it is only temporary, it will eventually be destroyed when mahraaj takes back his creation then only the great khand karam khand and the greatest khand sachkhand will be left.
     
  4. Sara

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    Here's a little info on nirvana that you might find helpful:

    www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/dharmadata/fdd43.htm

    www.buddhanet.net/ans22.htm

    Anyway, there has to be something that buddhism believes to be ever-lasting, since there's nirvana...

    And from what I've understood, in buddhism it's believed that nothing is created, the world has always existed. But then again, the world is only illusion and there's the emptiness behind everything. So maybe that emptiness is the absolute, which is realized when reaching nirvana... but I'm not sure.

    Perhaps someone else can shed some more light on this.
     
  5. devakumarc

    devakumarc
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    Sat Shri Akal and jai Shri Kalsa
    Dear Shri Aman veerji and other valued participants. I assume that your query on nirvana is very genuine. Before we dwell upon an issue of prime importance in another religion, we have to have due respect for such concepts. I wont be competent to talk of nirvana as per Buddhism but surely from Jainism perspective if it would interest you or this site. Parinirvana is not temporary or reversible and is the ultimate goal of any being. Many ardent Sikh brethern qualify to be in the path of liberation and for that matter any being irrespective of their outward forms.
    With due apologies for any error in my message.
    With personal regards
    Dev
     
  6. Neutral Singh

    Neutral Singh
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    Dear Devkumar ji,

    I think by now, you would have realised that we, at SPN, are open to any school of thought with utmost respect, so you can feel at home to share your spirituality and rest assured we are all seekers so any new perspective is more than welcome... :)

    Let us continue...

    What is the concept of Parinirvana ? Please elaborate a bit.

    Best Regards

    PS: Devkumar ji, any specific reason for spelling 'Khalsa' as 'Kalsa' ? Just curious. :)
     
  7. Amarpal

    Amarpal
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    Dear Aman Ji,

    As I have understood, nirvana is a state of living in which one becomes free of desires and has penetraled the veil of maya. In this state of living one is free, not bounded. This state leads to a very true living. Nirvana is achieved during the life time itsself.

    To me Nirvana and Moksha are two different states. In the former one lives the life turely; in the later one goes out of cyclic system of birth and death.

    Nirvana is a state of joyous unbounded living. It has nothing to do with God. This is the state in which Gautam the Buddha was; to the extent I know this Buddha never spoke about God. Later on, when the time passed and Buddha the person had become part of history, during the time of renaissance of Hinduism in India this word Nirvana was imported into Hindu streams of philosophies and made synonym of Moksha.

    God is a belief or faith or conviction with people based on their evolution and experience in life. God is not a physical entity. One can be highly spiritual without having faith in God.

    I hold the opinion that 'The Sat' gives us only what we earn through our Karmas. Only those prayers are answered by 'The Sat' which can be given by virtues of ones Karmas. They come to us in the form of 'Hukam' of 'The Sat'. One's Karmas - thoughts, action and speech - are the inputs for the 'Hukam'. 'The Sat' cannot be fooled by praises. 'The Sat' cannot be bribed by offerings 'Maya' at any place of worship. 'The Sat' gives only what one deserves; what one deserves is based on one's Karmas. That is why 'Kirt' is important for Khalsas.

    With love and respect for all.

    Amarpal Singh
     
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  8. devakumarc

    devakumarc
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    Dear Shri Amanji
    Sat Shri Akal. As a Tamilian, I am yet to master Hindi language as you have caught me wrong-footed. Thank you for pointing out the mispronunciation of Khalsa. Please be ever kind enough to correct me and guide me. That is why I always attach the string " my due apologies for any error in my message".
    With personal regards
    Dev

    dear Shri Amanji
    Thank you for your encouragement. i have posted some time back on this topic called "What is Jainism?" It is rather related to this issue of Parinirvana. ontrary to the commonly seen practice of Jainism by our folks, I find it to be an idealistic religion with the sole aim of liberation from bondage, nothing else and nothing more. Liberation from bondage is nirvana or parinirvana. With this brief introduction, let me reproduce my message posted elsewhere here for the benefit of this board.
    Hope, it interests some one.
    What is Jainism?
    Jainism is a religion of soul. What is soul? It is consciousness-personified; We may say, it is colorless, odorless, shapeless, mass less, devoid of sound, devoid of touch, beyond the pales of passions, delusions, senses and mind.

    So you must first believe that what you are is a soul. This positive belief is called theism. This self-belief is the first and foremost of Jainism. The second aspect is that there are infinite numbers of souls around you. The soul is an embodiment of cognition or consciousness (knowledge and perception). Each soul is capable of knowing it and others.

    What does this mean to today’s world?

    It simply means that you can’t partition beings and people in terms of nation, race, birth, gender, age, color, caste, wealth, physical attributes, etc. In other words, the religion of soul transcends the boundaries of time, space, geography, racial discrimination, gender divide, age-bar etc. Since we are very much used to units, currencies and values of physical world, we try to confine religions to these non-soul boundaries. Add to the non-soul character of “yours & mine”, the religion thus derived is in fact an artifact.

    In reality, you or I, the souls do not know our true identity. Strange, it appears but true. Just like souls, our universe has non-souls as well. Non-souls by definition are devoid of this cognition. Among the non-souls, the most fascinating one is called matter. What we see, hear, smell, touch is all matter. But in reality they don’t matter because a soul does not need them for its existence and expression. Each substance be it a soul or a non-soul is capable of independent existence and expression. In other words, you and I have been impersonating as some one and this impersonation has been going on without we knowing it. The matter has two important binding forces called forces of attraction and repulsion. So we, the souls have assumed these two forces as our own and transformed them as likes and dislikes. So essentially three forces which drive us away from knowing and living independently are the illusion of identity and temptations of likes and dislikes.

    So what is the way out? It depends on you and I. Am I satisfied with this state of misrepresentation or falsehood and continue to survive like this or free from this falsehood and dependence on non-cognitive matter? So you have to make this choice. You may very well ask this question. Why not try to be in this state and maximize my survival. This is one common approach of most of the world religion. Superimpose with this, the concept of creator-God, you can pursue the path of bonded life vesting faith in the creator-God to rescue you. Jainism on the other hand, does not believe in external force to rescue you.

    If you want freedom from dependence or bondage with matter, the only way is to free yourself from the forces of wrong-identity, likes and dislikes. Perceive you as a free independent, cognitive entity free of all material connotations of physical body, mind etc. You have no fixed shape; you are beyond the conventions of gender, race, religion, caste, nation etc. You are all yourself. You neither hate anybody nor like anyone. You instill self-belief and install yourself as an embodiment of supercognition setting aside the clouds and colours of matter. Whatever happens to you bear without any reaction tinged with anger, greed, conceit, ego etc or feelings of pain, pleasure and forbear them with equanimity. These are past bonded forces now uncoiling and releasing their effect. Unknowingly you earned them that way. So they bear their fruit now. Let them wither away. No regrets and no reaction whatsoever.

    It is not just possible overnight; True. But let us make a beginning in this direction. Never deter from this determination of freeing yourself. One day, surely one day, you will be free, independent and your cognition would reach all iota of space in the universe and beyond. You can know each and every one in all aspects instantly and constantly. This has been your ambition and you have achieved just that. This is called Purusharth. You have by then reached the end of the arduous journey (Siddhant). You have attained parinirvana, eternal freedom from bondage.

    So what is Jainism then? It is the belief and practice of disembarking the pschyco-material boundaries of likes and dislikes and at the same time embarking on the eternal state of equanimity. This process does not need any other tool except the one who wants to do it for oneself.

    Michchami dukkadam ( it means let my transgressions become false or in other words, I pray that my transgressions be made good by the readers.)

    With regards
    Dev
     
  9. OneWithAll

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    See you are looking at Nirvana in the wrong way. Nirvana is a state of mind. Its a way of living. You become one with everything....everything even animals like dogs. You have the clearest understanding for everything. Peace and tranquility is all around you. So yes really there is no god, but its just that going through the proccess of Nirvana you realize that you are god. You are god in your own Nirvana. Do you get what I'm saying. There isnt really a god its more that you believe yourself as a god, but to your standards. To your own Nirvana. Everyone can achieve it its just some people can do it much more quickly than others. I believe that Nirvana is truly what all ALL people are striving for. Its just some people become more aware of it than others. The more you become aware about things the faster to Nirvana you will go. Does this make sense? Very nice question by the way.
     
  10. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    Guru Ji speaks of Nirvana in the following tuk:-

    Ang 23

    ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ਘਰੁ
    सिरीरागु महला १ घरु ३ ॥
    Sirīrāg mėhlā 1 gẖar 3.
    Siree Raag, First Mehl, Third House:

    ਇਹੁ ਤਨੁ ਧਰਤੀ ਬੀਜੁ ਕਰਮਾ ਕਰੋ ਸਲਿਲ ਆਪਾਉ ਸਾਰਿੰਗਪਾਣੀ
    इहु तनु धरती बीजु करमा करो सलिल आपाउ सारिंगपाणी ॥
    Ih ṯan ḏẖarṯī bīj karmā karo salil āpā▫o sāringpāṇī.
    Make this body the field, and plant the seed of good actions. Water it with the Name of the Lord, who holds all the world in His Hands.

    ਮਨੁ ਕਿਰਸਾਣੁ ਹਰਿ ਰਿਦੈ ਜੰਮਾਇ ਲੈ ਇਉ ਪਾਵਸਿ ਪਦੁ ਨਿਰਬਾਣੀ ॥੧॥
    मनु किरसाणु हरि रिदै जमाइ लै इउ पावसि पदु निरबाणी ॥१॥
    Man kirsāṇ har riḏai jammā▫e lai i▫o pāvas paḏ nirbāṇī. ||1||
    Let your mind be the farmer; the Lord shall sprout in your heart, and you shall attain the state of Nirvaanaa. ||1||

    ਕਾਹੇ ਗਰਬਸਿ ਮੂੜੇ ਮਾਇਆ
    काहे गरबसि मूड़े माइआ ॥
    Kāhe garbas mūṛe mā▫i▫ā.
    You fool! Why are you so proud of Maya?

    ਪਿਤ ਸੁਤੋ ਸਗਲ ਕਾਲਤ੍ਰ ਮਾਤਾ ਤੇਰੇ ਹੋਹਿ ਅੰਤਿ ਸਖਾਇਆ ਰਹਾਉ
    पित सुतो सगल कालत्र माता तेरे होहि न अंति सखाइआ ॥ रहाउ ॥
    Piṯ suṯo sagal kālṯar māṯā ṯere hohi na anṯ sakẖā▫i▫ā. Rahā▫o.
    Father, children, spouse, mother and all relatives-they shall not be your helpers in the end. ||Pause||

    ਬਿਖੈ ਬਿਕਾਰ ਦੁਸਟ ਕਿਰਖਾ ਕਰੇ ਇਨ ਤਜਿ ਆਤਮੈ ਹੋਇ ਧਿਆਈ
    बिखै बिकार दुसट किरखा करे इन तजि आतमै होइ धिआई ॥
    Bikẖai bikār ḏusat kirkẖā kare in ṯaj āṯmai ho▫e ḏẖi▫ā▫ī.
    So weed out evil, wickedness and corruption; leave these behind, and let your soul meditate on God.

    ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਹੋਹਿ ਜਬ ਰਾਖੇ ਕਮਲੁ ਬਿਗਸੈ ਮਧੁ ਆਸ੍ਰਮਾਈ ॥੨॥
    जपु तपु संजमु होहि जब राखे कमलु बिगसै मधु आस्रमाई ॥२॥
    Jap ṯap sanjam hohi jab rākẖe kamal bigsai maḏẖ āsarmā▫ī. ||2||
    When chanting, austere meditation and self-discipline become your protectors, then the lotus blossoms forth, and the honey trickles out. ||2||

    ਬੀਸ ਸਪਤਾਹਰੋ ਬਾਸਰੋ ਸੰਗ੍ਰਹੈ ਤੀਨਿ ਖੋੜਾ ਨਿਤ ਕਾਲੁ ਸਾਰੈ
    बीस सपताहरो बासरो संग्रहै तीनि खोड़ा नित कालु सारै ॥
    Bīs sapṯāhro bāsro sangrahai ṯīn kẖoṛā niṯ kāl sārai.
    Bring the twenty-seven elements of the body under your control, and throughout the three stages of life, remember death.

    ਦਸ ਅਠਾਰ ਮੈ ਅਪਰੰਪਰੋ ਚੀਨੈ ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਇਵ ਏਕੁ ਤਾਰੈ ॥੩॥੨੬॥
    दस अठार मै अपर्मपरो चीनै कहै नानकु इव एकु तारै ॥३॥२६॥
    Ḏas aṯẖār mai aprampro cẖīnai kahai Nānak iv ek ṯārai. ||3||26||
    See the Infinite Lord in the ten directions, and in all the variety of nature. Says Nanak, in this way, the One Lord shall carry you across. ||3||26||
     
  11. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Nirvana for me as a lay man is total freedom within. In other words when one has find the permanent connection with the ONE- Ik Ong Kaar. One becomes the orchestra and the instrument at the same time and accepts Ik Ong Kaar as the only conductor.

    Only by accepting Ik Ong kaar as the only ONE conductor, then Nirvana makes us dwell in the realm of Nirbhau and Nirvair where one feels no enmity and one sees no stranger against any one, the true essence of Miri- Piri.

    So when we are dwelling in Nirvana as explained above then we mean it when we chant," Satguru apnei sunee Ardaas, Karaj ayaya sagla raas".

    "My Ik Ong Kaar has heard my Ardaas- my pleadings and now I am certain that with HIM as my only Conductor, I am able to play the perfect music of life".

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  12. vsgrewal48895

    vsgrewal48895
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    Dear All,

    Here are my two cents on the subject under discussion;

    NIRVANA/ ਜੀਵਨ–ਮੁਕਤੁ

    ABSTRACT

    Nirvana in Sikh thought is a state of poise reached through the stage of enlightenment or the fourth state/ਤੁਰੀਆਵਸਥਾ. It is the end in itself for a serious seeker of spirituality and comes with discerning intellect (ਬਿਬੇਕ ਬੁੱਧੀ) by following the teachings contained in Sabd Guru and define Nirvana in the phrase “Dead while Alive” (ਜੀਵਨ-ਮੁਕਤੁ). This state cannot be described says Guru Amardas in Raag Bilawal.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Nirvana IMHO is liberation from ignorance, illusion, doubt, duality, ego, and or dying in to the Word, or awakening to the teachings. It is the evolvement of a state of equipose with complete tranquility of mind, while still alive.

    Of course no one knows what happens after death. But while we are still alive, Nirvana can be achieved through Divine knowledge. There is no way to prove this. The only option is to accept it as a matter of faith. Understanding concepts such as salvation is not easy at present. Implicit in it is the notion that there was a before, during and after as part of this stipulation.

    The need for nirvana rests upon a surprising and apparently enduring fact, the fact of contradiction in the inner life. We all tend to begin, as Socrates did, with the assumption that wickedness is a matter of ignorance, and we often hold that, if a man really knows what is good, he is sure to do it.
    We all know of sweet and beautiful lives ruined by explosive tempers, lack of poise in character, ending in bad blood. How few people we meet in life seem to be well balanced, having that exquisite poise which is characteristic of a refined character! A growth in spirituality animates a different kind of wisdom from the higher worlds to those who dwell here below. Through growth in spirituality this flow of spiritual vitality occurs upon following the esoteric principles enshrined in AGGS. People of other faiths can similarly follow the precepts for good deeds according to their own religions. Thus, any one on this earth making the effort can be blessed by spiritual wisdom or so called nirvana in life.

    Yes, humanity surges with uncontrolled passion, is tumultuous with ungoverned grief, is blown about by anxiety and doubt. Only the wise individual, whose thoughts are controlled, purified, and is blessed by the Grace of Akal Purkh, makes the winds and the storms of the mind obey him. Tempest-tossed souls, wherever you may be, under whatsoever conditions you may live, know this in the ocean of life (ਭਵਜਲ), the isles of Blessedness, Grace, are smiling, and the sunny shore of your ideal awaits your coming. Keep your hand firmly upon the helm of thought, as in the bark of your mind reclines the commanding Master; but sleep: wake It and follow Its command and Will. “Thy Will be done”. Right Thought is mastery; calmness is power, and this ranquility is a prelude to the state of nirvana.

    After all is said and done, nirvana/liberation/salvation is the state of equipoise developed with dedication, and service, that one enjoys the divine bliss in this life. It comes with the development of virtues and treating every one as equal.

    The religious man, believing as he does in the spiritual nature of God and in the spiritual nature of man, soon discovers that he has two selves. One is the present actual self, narrow, confused, and self-contradictory; the other is the Real Self which a man may see but dimly hidden under the veil of ego (ਹਉਮੈ), but which he soon realizes is his greatest possession gained through the teachings of Sabd Guru or The Word. Mind is all inclusive of conscious and unconscious processes and is the seat of Cause of Causes. This is the place where all interchanges take place.

    Conclusion:

    Nirvana is achieved when the individual consciousness is absorbed in to the Universal Consciousness in Divine bliss while alive. This is very difficult state but can be achieved by contemplation, deliberation, reflection, prayer, meditation, devotional Divine love, accepting Divine Will, and application of these principles in daily life with individual effort (ਉਦਮ). This state of tranquility is explained beautifully by Guru Tegh Bahadur in Raag Sorath.

    Bibliography;

    1. Guru Nanak, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 903-14
    2. Guru Amardas, Raag Bilawal, AGGS, Page, 796-19
    3. Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 412-17
    4. Guru Nanak, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 904-4
    5. Guru Nanak, Raag Maru, AGGS, Page, 1009-19
    6. Guru Amardas, Gujri Ki Var, AGGS, Page, 509-16, 17, 18 & 19
    7. Kabir Slokes 58 & 59, AGGS, Page, 1367-10,11 & 12
    8. Guru Tegh Bahadur, Raag Sorath, AGGS, Page, 633

    Cordially,

    Virinder S. Grewal
     
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  13. OneWithAll

    OneWithAll
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    that is a very beautiful way at looking at it. very poetic and I agree just in simpler words. I look at Nirvana as finding your true calling in life, the thing you want to do most and doing it because you know it will make you happy. and thats why you will be happy in life. Thats why you will live in Nirvana. I feel my true calling in life is to help people understand how this world works and how people work. Each person is exactly the same and thats why you should always treat EVERYONE you meet with your utmost respect. The reason why that is MY Nirvana is because that is what makes me happy. I like helping pepole with thier problems and helping them see the veiwpoints of others. Now other people may feel differently, but do i dislike them? No of course not its just that they have thier own way of looking at life.
     

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