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What is the language of Sikhs?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Archived_member2, Sep 28, 2007.

  1. Archived_member2

    Archived_member2
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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
    Dear all!

    Gurmukhi is the language of the Gurus. Do Sikhs know the language of their Gurus?
    The translations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee and Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Jee confirm that they do not understand their Guru's language, what to say about the wisdom behind it.
    Please express your views.


    Balbir Singh
     
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  3. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    Vaar 10 Pauri 20 Ajamil
    piq Ajwml pwp kr jwie klwvqxI dy rihAw]
    path ajaamal paap kar jaae kalaavathanee dhae rehiaa||
    Ajamil, the fallen sinner lived with a prostitute.
    Line 1

    gur qy bymuK hoiekY pwp kmwvy durmiq dihAw]
    gur thae baemukh hoeikai paap kamaavae dhuramath dhehiaa||
    He became an apostate. He was entangled in the cobweb of evil deeds.
    Line 2

    ibRQw jnm gvwieAnu Bvjl AMdr iPrdw vihAw]
    brithhaa janam gavaaeian bhavajal andhar firadhaa vehiaa||
    His life was wasted in futile deeds and was tossed and thrown within the terrifying worldly ocean.
    Line 3

    iCA puq jwey vysvw pwpW dy Pl ieCy lihAw]
    shhia puth jaaeae vaesavaa paapaan dhae fal eishhae lehiaa||
    While with the prostitute, he became the father of six sons. As a result of her bad deeds they all became dangerous robbers.
    Line 4

    puqR aupMnw sqvW nwauN Drx noN icq aumihAw]
    puthr oupannaa sathavaan naaoun dhharan non chith oumehiaa||
    A seventh son was born and he began to consider a name for the child.
    Line 5

    gurU duAwrY jwiekY gurmuK nwauN nrwiex kihAw]
    guroo dhuaarai jaaeikai guramukh naaoun naraaein kehiaa||
    He visited the Guru who named his son Narayan (a name for God).
    Line 6

    AMqkwl jmdUq vyK puq nrwiex bolY CihAw]
    anthakaal jamadhooth vaekh puth naraaein bolai shhehiaa||
    At the end of his life, seeing the messengers of death Ajamil cried for Narayan.
    Line 7

    jmgx mwry hirjnW gieAw surg jm fMf n sihAw]
    jamagan maarae harijanaan gaeiaa surag jam ddandd n sehiaa||
    The name of God made the death messengers take to their heels. Ajamil went to heaven and did not suffer the beatings from the club of the messengers of death.
    Line 8

    nwie ley duK fyrw FihAw ]òú]
    naae leae dhukh ddaeraa dtehiaa ||aa||
    Utterance of Name of the Lord dispels all sorrow.
    Line 9
     
  4. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
    Dear all and Begum Jee!

    Some people forget their language. Why are you missing words? Please say something about this topic.

    Some go on changing, exchanging or replacing the reverend Guru's Words, also while explaining those. I feel they do not understand that the Gurus are expressing Truth.


    Balbir Singh
     
  5. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    Guru's wisdom is not based on one's feelings.
     
  6. Archived_member2

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    It does not depend on a crowd either.
     
  7. TGill

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    No one knows the language of the Guru expect a true sikh. So who should learn it and who can make someone learn it...

    Gurmukhi is a script by the way !!
     
  8. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
    Dear all!

    Gurmukhee is also the language that God speaks through the mouth of the true Guru.

    Balbir Singh
     
  9. roopsidhu

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    Gurbani is written in gurmukhi. Please note that gurbani is also in poetic version. To reach to the depth of the meanings of any poetic lines, one must know that particular language very well. There is no spiritual reason that gurmukhi is must for Sikhs but there is a very solid, practical and valid reason that to understand this poetic version of gurbani to the greatest depths one must know the gurmukhi language.
     
  10. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
    Dear all!

    Quote from Roopsidhu Jee "Gurbani is written in gurmukhi. Please note that gurbani is also in poetic version. To reach to the depth of the meanings of any poetic lines, one must know that particular language very well."
    Knowing the language helps to understand at mind levels. But what can one do when he receives the wrong translations through these so-called experts.

    Quote "There is no spiritual reason that gurmukhi is must for Sikhs but there is a very solid, practical and valid reason that to understand this poetic version of gurbani to the greatest depths one must know the gurmukhi language."
    One who has come to know true Simran understands the Guru's language truly. The Guru's Wisdom is above the grammar of a language.


    Balbir Singh
     
  11. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Veer ji

    Please know. Gurmukhi was never a spoken language. Gurmukhi is in fact a script rather than a language. The script was created so that literate people of northern India could read Siri Guru Granth Sahib even when they lacked the ability to read any of the several languages that are in fact included in the scripture. Gurmukhi script was created and refined by the Guru Arjan Dev ji. The languages of Siri Guru Granth Sahib act together like a language of spirit and poetry. A blend of ancient Sanskrit, Persian, Urdu, Punjabi and Hindi. Energetic minds who want to take the time to investigate can comment further on the reasons why this is historically true.

    Translations are rarely exact because to translate from one language rendered in poetic form to any other language in a poetic form requires more than a mastery of both languages. It also requires mastery of poetics in two languages. There aren't many people around who can do that in any two languages (English to German, German to Russian, or expressions of SGGS to anything else). Since languages can be very different in terms of their use of implication rules, idioms, and word meaning, exact translations for the most part would sound ridiculous.

    For readers who care about facts: then,

    There are two major theories on how the Proto-Gurmukhi script emerged in the 15th century. G.B. Singh (1950), while quoting Abu Raihan Al-Biruni's Ta'rikh al-Hind (1030 AD), says that the script evolved from Ardhanagari. Al-Biruni writes that the Ardhanagari script was used in Bathinda, including Sindh and western parts of the Punjab in the 10th century. For some time, Bhatinda remained the capital of the kingdom of Bhatti Rajputs of the Pal clan, who ruled North India before the Muslims occupied the country. Because of its connection with the Bhattis, the Ardhanagari script was also called Bhatachhari. According to Al-Biruni, Ardhanagari was a mixture of Nagari, used in Ujjain and Malwa, and Siddha Matrika or the Siddham script, a variant of the Sharada scriptKashmir. used in Kashmir.
    (a short passage from Wikopedia).

    If you don't care about facts, then just blow off the paragraph above and proceed as you will.

    But let's be fair to hard-working translators, whose talents are huge. Let's not create a controversy for the sake of having an argument -- unless it is going to take us to a place where knowledge is gained and understanding is helped along.
     
  12. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
    Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!

    Thanks for a good post. Hearing from you again is pleasant. May I ask why your name does not appear in the list 'Total members that have visited the forum in the last 24 hours?"

    I appreciate the feelings and dedication of hard working translators. Also, I feel sad confronting people on Internet spreading wrong translations. Surprising even, dictionaries are not covering all the words from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee.
    Translations are not correct because they are not promoting the true knowledge of Naam Simran. The word right now does not need translations from every person who can spend time and money. Without the development of conscious mind through true Naam true translations are not possible.

    Every time I read a false translation I feel sorry. More interesting is the behavior of some obstinate people who go on changing, exchanging or replacing the Guru's words writing an article or explaining those. I would like to give an example.
    A participant started a great topic on another forum. He asked about importance of Shiv in Gurbaanee and Sikhi. The strange answer came from a so-called dedicated Sikh that Shiv is not the Hindu God. The Shiv is Akaal Purakh. The reverend Gurus never say that Shiv is Hindu, Hindu God or Akaal Purakh.
    The truth is that no God's Names are Hindu nor those are Hindu Gods. These Names are activities and attributes of God Himself. A true Sikh realizes those with the developing conscious mind.
    I pray to God. Please bless all true Sikhs with this development.

    Another interesting thing I remember. One reader quoted Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee
    "deh sivaa baru mohi ihay subh karman te kabahooN na taraoN."
    I got curious. Many Sikhs love to read and sing this Sabad from Gurdev. Are they allowed to request Shiv for such a boon or they should replace first Shiv with Akaal Purakh?


    Balbir Singh
     
  13. spnadmin

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    Balbir ji

    Thanks for the warm welcome. You can't see my id because my preferences are set for a hidden log in. Some may I did that because I might be working for an external intelligence agency in a SouthAsian country - unspecified for obvious reasons. :D

    You are interested in the language of Gurudev, and here is an interesting reference -- a glossary of Sanskrit words, so many of which are used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.
    Sanskrit Glossary

    Hope you have some interesting hours enjoying what is there.

    Signing off,
    Sat Sri Akaal!!! Bolave Akaal!!!
     
  14. roopsidhu

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    Guru piyari Sangat ji
    All waht I wanted to say is that rather than depending on the translations its much better to know the laguage in which that poetry is written. Any how the knowledge of any language can not determine the level of the spirtuality of any person. No proportions can be set for the language and spirtuality.
     
  15. spnadmin

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    roopsidhu ji

    I agree with you. Understanding the poetry in the language requires heroic effort and knowledge.

    Spirituality -- comes from somewhere else.
     
  16. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
    Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!

    Some persons get a chance to hear a parrot speaking a word from human language. Imitating his master wonders everyone at first. Soon one comes to realize his limitations. It becomes irritating if a visitor has to hear his expertise continuously. These parrots are bound to spend whole life in a cage.
    I have heard many parrots imitating their masters. They bring me in wonder with their voice, style and the words conned.
    Any parrot can learn his master's words by heart.
    Human beings are born to rise, above the animal instinct searching 'Charan Dhoor' of the true Sabad Guru.

    The true Guru never suggests reading and conning His written words. Lovingly they propose to receive ONE NAAM. Blessed are those who react. They understand the true Guru's language.

    Sorry to say that many parrots have become preachers. They are now teaching human beings how to imitate.


    Balbir Singh
     
  17. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Balbir ji

    God made the parrots and the preachers and the humans that imitate. I know, The racket they make can rattle the brain.

    Parrots? You can throw a nice linen cloth over the cage to shut them up. Sometimes preachers and humans have a spiritual breakthrough. Anyway they all teach us something about ourselves. And God loves them.
     
  18. drkhalsa

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    Dear Aad ji welcome back to the forum
    !

    and thanks for reminding that everything including parrots and preachers are acting in domain of one akal so nothing much to bother


    Dear Balbir Singh ji

    Thanks for very atypical kind of post from your side .

    About translation I seriously believe that YOu can write one good translation why dont you try or if already done then share with us

    one more question is there not even a single Correct( relatively) translation available to sikh s in your opinion . if there is available then please share it with us


    Thanks


    Jatinder Singh
     
  19. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
    Dear all and Jatinder Jee!

    Thanks for the suggestion. I do not feel people need a translation. They need true Naam Simran.
    The true Guru's words are so simple and straight as much I have heard Him. His translation without true Simran may complicate it to understand Him.
    Translation only shows the conscious level of the translator's mind. True Guru's message is universal.
    Let us exchange our views in Satsangs. The Sikhphilosophydotnet forum is a good platform right now.

    Some are asking me only for translation. Some impel me to reveal its source. I wish them all to convey what I heard someone singing.

    ਮੇਰੇ ਦੋਸਤੌਂ ਕੋ ਦਾਵਤ ਉਸਕੇ ਹਾਥ ਮੇਂ ਹੈ ਬੋਤਲ ||
    मेरे दोस्तौं को दावत उसके हाथ में है बोतल ॥
    meray dostoN ko daawat uske haath meN hai botal.

    ਜਿਸੇ ਦੇਖਨੀ ਹੋ ਜਨੰਤ ਗੁਰੁ ਕੇ ਸਾਥ ਸਾਥ ਆਏ ||
    जिसे देखनी हो जन्नत गुरु के साथ साथ आए ॥
    jisay dekhnee ho jannat guru ke saath saath aaye.


    Balbir Singh
     
  20. TGill

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    Balbir ji
    I don't know why such posts are even started when one always end up contradicting himself. I'm not saying contradiction is bad, it is all good, but what is need of all stupid arguments when the end and the beginning is the same, and the resultant is the wastage of time.. You can utilize the time to do True Simran (as you put it), and people here can keep on continuing their efforts to satisfy their quest to find true naam simran (which you as you said you yourself know but it something which can't be delivered to someone else here on internet, why waste time).

    Quote: "Translation only shows the conscious level of the translator's mind. True Guru's message is universal.
    Let us exchange our views in Satsangs. The Sikhphilosophydotnet forum is a good platform right now."
    - Please look at the inherent contradiction here. You are saying that translation shows conscious level of the translator, perfectly true. But then why are asking to exchange views in "Satsangs" like SPN, please clarify if your views are above concious level ? Also please define Satsang, can we express "Sat" in our views... if it is possible to express the 'Sat' in the views on SPN then everyonw will be the "knower of truth"... isn't it !!

    - Regarding Gurmukhi, it is a script and people should learn it to understand what is written by the Guru at the concious level, the real thing would be how to go beyond that level, and that no one can express in views... Tranlations are usually poor, including some given on "SaySatsriakal.com" as well cos as you mentioned it only shows the concious level of the translator. So lets not indulge in wasting time, as not much time is left. Lets come to know the True Simran ourselves before preaching others...

    God takes care of all, not just saints or psuedo saints .... am I wrong ?
     
  21. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
    Dear all and TGill Jee!

    Quote "I'm not saying contradiction is bad, it is all good, but what is need of all stupid arguments when the end and the beginning is the same, and the resultant is the wastage of time.."
    Realizing this is a great observation. Most of the people on earth think the same that others perhaps waste life doing Naam Simran.
    I feel the Naam grape has always the sweat taste.

    Quote "can we express 'Sat' in our views... if it is possible to express the 'Sat' in the views on SPN then everyonw will be the 'knower of truth'... isn't it !!"
    These thoughts remain till one comes to know true Simran.
    All expressions are God's Truth though.

    Quote "Tranlations are usually poor, including some given on "SaySatsriakal.com" as well cos as you mentioned it only shows the concious level of the translator."
    It is right. By the way, did your inner voice say something to convince otherwise?

    Quote "So lets not indulge in wasting time, as not much time is left. Lets come to know the True Simran ourselves before preaching others..."
    I agree. Please do visit sometimes when the time allows after meeting a true Saint.

    Quote "God takes care of all, not just saints or psuedo saints .... am I wrong ?"
    May I ask of whom Sikh forums are taking care?


    Balbir Singh
     

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