What Is Naam?

[chazSingh]

I do not follow you around Chazji, so I have no knowledge of how you conduct yourself in your life, or what you give back to Creation, all I have to base my musings on is how you interact on this forum. On this forum, we have had a loss recently, my point remains, the thread set up for us to remember her, to comfort not only each other but also her family, only proves my point, maybe you guys were too busy tripping the light fantastic to contribute.

one doesn't always need to do something in front of others...if i say a silent prayer in my mind...or in an ardaas, that is good enough for me...and i'm sure those prayers will reach her...

I agree, I have never said otherwise, however, there is a difference between understanding the self, and becoming obsessed by the self.

A huge chunk of Gurbani is urging us to seek this...i guess it must be pretty important in a world that is engulfed by the Ego...look around the Ego is dominating the world and it's actions...

if by knowing thy self, Ego can be watered down...and the light of God shine forth and all His attributes into this world through thought, actions and words, then let me and others be obsessed...like Kabir ji says in that shabad 'insane'.

not really, for all the talk, my point is what good does it do, you guys cannot even be bothered to take a minute out to write a few lines in memory of the person that practically shaped this forum.

this is just a good example of judging...like i've seen many times at a funeral..."oh look at Her/Him, He/She is not even crying...He/She doesnt even look upset...He/She doesnt care"

its all judgement without knowing any true facts...without knowing what the person really feels, or has done, or has thought...

actually eh? I will actually see that, well forgive me if I disagree, and just what is permanent reality anyway?

I can't tell you this...you must find out yourself...i don't even know what this is...but i'm going to find out

do point out where I said this, I am in complete agreement that knowing the self is one of the most important things a person can do, it is this obsession with this Vedic type spirituality that I find bemusing

in all my life i don;t think i have ever looked into what this 'Vedic' type of spirituality is...


There's a whole lot of mentioning about things that sound mystic, spiritual in Gurbani, about looking within yourself, inner vision, tenth gate, having the shabad guide your consciousness, your body containing all secrets...

it's up to you to seek what this all is and seeing if Guru Granth becomes true within yourself..

I have no idea if that seems Vedic because i have no idea what Vedic stuff is....all i know is Gurbani is on to something because what it says starts to become true within your own being..

 

[Luckysingh]

Judging is all done by ego.
Only God is the true judge and knower- the deeper inner knower...'antarjami'

When the judging happens, it is the thoughts and intentions that are judged not the display of actions.

Knowing the SELF moves you out of Ego.
Ego is the display of actions, the judging, the ridiculing of other actions.

I agree, I have never said otherwise, however, there is a difference between understanding the self, and becoming obsessed by the self.

Understanding the self is getting to know the true you, the true self, the Truth.
Becoming obsessed about anything is to drive your Ego.
How can understanding the true self be an obsession ?
Is it your true self that sees this or the ego ?


as for Vedic, I haven't got a clue what this has anything to do with finding the truth and true self.
It's just a play of words by anti-hindu brigade that is under the impression that anything hindu is all about ritual and blind practice.
Does being a hindu mean you will never find the truth ?..................Well, I have no right to judge or say as I don't know the ins/outs of this vast and diverse faith. But some of the people/preachers leading the show may be false but I can't judge the scriptures based on that and neither do I have the time to examine them.
We have the Guru, which some of us are dividing in our practices, then are we going to judge the Guru with our ignorance ?

 

[japjisahib04]

Judging is all done by ego.
Only God is the true judge and knower- the deeper inner knower...'antarjami'

When the judging happens, it is the thoughts and intentions We have the Guru, which some of us are dividing in our practices, then are we going to judge the Guru with our ignorance ?

Is the guru in human form or sabd guru that we are dividing in our practice?

I am only wondering when the whole show is play of manh and guru sahib through out gurbani is directing manh to listen, 'ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੁਨੁ ਰੇ ਮਨਾ, ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੁਨੁ ਰੇ ਮਨਾ, Oh manh listen the inner voice - the sabd guru where is the confusion that we are trying to feed the manh - waheguru to still it when guru sahib is telling to utilize it for betterness of society, eve otherwise manh cannot be stilled, 'chupai chup n hoveyee irrespective of millions of times of uttering.

We perhaps have not researched properly that Guru's teachings is exclusively different and advance from other world religions as 'sabh uppar nanak ka thakhur' Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.779.12 and we should be proud of it but unfortunately our psedo preachers/scholar are interpreting gurbani on the base of ancient notion without contemplating. Let us first know what is mind and whether mind is part of God's creation or is it our own creation. Gurbani tells us, 'eh mann shakti eh mann seo eh man panch tatt ko jeo Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 342.5 it clearly indicate that mind is not the creation of God but is collections of our thought process and LIVE on five elements and survives in our body so long as five elements are ALIVE thus keeps on chattering. Therefore, logically so long as five elements are alive, mind cannot come into quietitude and stillness or stop inner chatter or flickering. Let us make this point clear once for all. Guru sahib in japjisahib also explains, 'jor na raaj maal manm shor' the mind cannot be brought to stillness even with the force of emphire and wealth.Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.6.

Now the second question is why do we need to bring the mind to stillness. We know very well that if something is surviving in any body, then depending upon the requirements, values and enviornnment around it mind/inner chattering is built and thus mind/inner chatting is not created by God. What gurbani tells us to replace this chattering with divine message. Our Guru realized the power of mind, thus directed taking us beyond decimating mind, thus instead we make useless attempt to bring mind to stillness, sell it to satguru by stating, 'mann baichai satugur kai pass tis sevak kai karaj raas' Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

 

[Harry Haller]

t

o know who YOU REALLY ARE (not the body that burns away) but the permanent reality that exists within that Body and beyond...through that KNOWLEDGE you will KNOW who your creator is...and actually see GOD working through everything and anything..

actually eh? I will actually see that, well forgive me if I disagree, and just what is permanent reality anyway?

I can't tell you this...you must find out yourself...i don't even know what this is...but i'm going to find out

can I take it then that your first quote in all its definitiveness is actually rubbish, as you yourself have no idea what you are talking about, by your own admission.

in all my life i don;t think i have ever looked into what this 'Vedic' type of spirituality is...

Allow me to enlighten you, as normally, speaking for myself, I tend to use words and phrases I am familiar with.

If you are a Hindu, be a good Hindu
If you are a Sikh be a good Sikh,

For those that feel the need to take facets of both religions, I am not sure how one goes about being a good Hindu/Sikh,

Vedic Spirituality is the spiritual connection as defined and utilised by Hindus, if you look at a picture of Shiva meditating on a mountain top, I would class that as Vedic Spirituality.

If however, you look at a picture of Bhai Kanhaiya helping wounded Muslim soldiers, that, to me anyway, and it is only my opinion, is an example of Sikh spirituality.

There's a whole lot of mentioning about things that sound mystic, spiritual in Gurbani, about looking within yourself, inner vision, tenth gate, having the shabad guide your consciousness, your body containing all secrets...

it is either being mocked, or it is the result of badly translated Bani.

t's up to you to seek what this all is and seeing if Guru Granth becomes true within yourself..

Oh Im fine, we are all doing this in our own way, if you guys wish to connect by meditating that is up to you, but please don't try and pass it off as the way, the only way, that is all I object to.

Judging is all done by ego.
Only God is the true judge and knower- the deeper inner knower...'antarjami'

When the judging happens, it is the thoughts and intentions that are judged not the display of actions.

Pray do tell when this judging happens? Do we have a judgement day like the Muslims and the Christians? Goody, I always thought plain old Sikhism was a bit boring what with the lack of bells and whistles, and according to you, more definitive statements, thoughts and intentions are judged not actions, oh well, I am clearly living my life wrong, I should be watching my thoughts in case the spaghetti god reads my thoughts and punishes me! Personally, I think NK was on to something when she just deleted this rubbish, it was certainly easier and less time consuming than having to sit here and question it, but I personally do not want a single young person reading this forum leaving, thinking its ok to do what you want, provided you do not think it...

Knowing the SELF moves you out of Ego.
Ego is the display of actions, the judging, the ridiculing of other actions.

Do tell me what you call watching a group of Hindus cup water to the sun god, and then turning around and cupping water to your fields many miles away? Do tell me where you draw the line between ego and counter argument?

as for Vedic, I haven't got a clue what this has anything to do with finding the truth and true self.
It's just a play of words by anti-hindu brigade that is under the impression that anything hindu is all about ritual and blind practice.

I have never ever seen Hinduism as anything other than a fine religion, and I resent your intimation that I am anti Hindu. What I am is anti mixing religions, I have no doubt you can find Mukti in Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, etc etc, I also have no doubt you will not find Mukti if you just take the interesting bits from each and form your own religion.

To bring this all back to the subject in hand, Naam is defined in Wikki as

Nāma is the Sanskrit for "name". Spiritually, it is the principal method or tool of meditation, which is meant to unite the soul with the Supreme Soul.

It is believed that God existed before the creation of the universe. The name of God is therefore beyond the language structure created by mankind. The Nām meaning the name is the internal rhythm, the internal sound that a man experiences, the true name of God, and thus ultimate Japa, as it is called in Hinduism, or Jaap in Sikhism.

so to that end, if you are a Hindu, you are correct, as is most of what you are writing, my argument is that in Sikhism Naam is something different, it is more of a connection, a very physical connection with Creation, rather than a spiritual connection of soul uniting.

 

[Inderjeet Kaur]

What I am is anti mixing religions, I have no doubt you can find Mukti in Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, etc etc, I also have no doubt you will not find Mukti if you just take the interesting bits from each and form your own religion.

A brilliant statement.

Please let me add that it also doesn't work if you take the parts of any one religion that you like and ignore the parts you don't like.

 

[Luckysingh]

Is the guru in human form or sabd guru that we are dividing in our practice?

I am only wondering when the whole show is play of manh and guru sahib through out gurbani is directing manh to listen, 'ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੁਨੁ ਰੇ ਮਨਾ, ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੁਨੁ ਰੇ ਮਨਾ, Oh manh listen the inner voice -
the sabd guru where is the confusion that we are trying to feed the manh - waheguru to still it when guru sahib is telling to utilize it for betterness of society, eve otherwise manh cannot be stilled, 'chupai chup n hoveyee irrespective of millions of times of uttering.

Please explain HOW and Where it is saying to NOT still your mind ??

We perhaps have not researched properly that Guru's teachings is exclusively different and advance from other world religions as 'sabh uppar nanak ka thakhur' Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.779.12 and we should be proud of it but unfortunately our psedo preachers/scholar are interpreting gurbani on the base of ancient notion without contemplating. Let us first know what is mind and whether mind is part of God's creation or is it our own creation.
Gurbani tells us, 'eh mann shakti eh mann seo eh man panch tatt ko jeo Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 342.5
it clearly indicate that mind is not the creation of God but is collections of our thought process and LIVE on five elements and survives in our body so long as five elements are ALIVE thus keeps on chattering.
Therefore, logically so long as five elements are alive, mind cannot come into quietitude and stillness or stop inner chatter or flickering.
Let us make this point clear once for all.

Please show me where in the full shabad it says the above?
I will kindly help you here and lay out the essentials.
You can by all means point out where I am wrong and going against gurbani, because I'm gonna tell you where I think so !


ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਸਕਤੀ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਸੀਉ ॥
Ih man sakṯī ih man sī▫o.
This mind is Shakti; this mind is Shiva.

in rest of gurbani, shiva is reference to matter/the sargun.
Shakti is reference to consciousness/power/nirgun manifestation.
However, saying that Mind is BOTH shiva and shakti, yet we can't see this Mind physically.... then How can that be ??.... how can you say Shiva ???
Guruji... nicely answers in the next line which you have sadly taken in the completely wrong direction......

ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਪੰਚ ਤਤ ਕੋ ਜੀਉ ॥
Ih man pancẖ ṯaṯ ko jī▫o.
This mind is the life of the five elements.

So, he answers and says this.. But it is a much deeper and extensive answer and completly no where near to your interpretation.
Summing briefly... ALL Physical creation was created from 5 elements.
But Gurbani also says there is the nirgun/formless and subtle/sukam creations which we can't see like the Mind within us.
But what are all these nirgun and subtle manifestations made of in order to survive in maya ???
ANSwer-.. They still have the subtle forms of 5 elements.
Gurbani talks quite clearly about these as well.

So, this particular line is actually saying.''The Mind is also the life of these 5 elements whilst it sustains itself in maya creation''

ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਲੇ ਜਉ ਉਨਮਨਿ ਰਹੈ ॥
Ih man le ja▫o unman rahai.
When this mind is channeled, and guided to enlightenment,

ਤਉ ਤੀਨਿ ਲੋਕ ਕੀ ਬਾਤੈ ਕਹੈ ॥੩੩॥
Ŧa▫o ṯīn lok kī bāṯai kahai. ||33||
it can describe the secrets of the three worlds. ||33||

Guru sahib in japjisahib also explains, 'jor na raaj maal manm shor' the mind cannot be brought to stillness even with the force of emphire and wealth.Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.6

ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਰਾਜਿ ਮਾਲਿ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਰੁ ॥
Jor na rāj māl man sor.
No power to rule, with wealth and occult mental powers.

It is saying nothing about ''mind cannot be be stilled''
'Man sor'' is using your mind to do the talking or make the noise,-which is why translation says 'occult mental powers'..... as that is what these mind manipulator ridi sidi occults do.
Please elaborate and explain if I have missed or can't see something ?

Now the second question is why do we need to bring the mind to stillness. We know very well that if something is surviving in any body, then depending upon the requirements, values and enviornnment around it mind/inner chattering is built and thus mind/inner chatting is not created by God.
What gurbani tells us to replace this chattering with divine message.

Please explain how do you replace chattering, without eradicating the thoughts ?
Gurbani says in a few places that the Mind is like a BIRD and it will just wander in 10 directions, This same wandering is your mind going through all it's internal chitter chatter.
The ONLY way to stop the wandering is what Gurbani itself says 'mann nu takhona' or 'Still the Mind'

Like yourself, I shall quote the 1-liner references here but only to show you so that you may quite freely pick and choose any one to discuss further......(these are references to discuss further and prove me wrong!)
I have not had the time myself to look at them in depth, BUT please, please... enlighten me with any one that you find that has some message that only the 'Sakat' or faithless cynic STILLS the Mind.
OR that one is Manmukh compared to gurmukh who Stills Mind.
OR even, any one that has the message that you gave above

Page 170, Line 19
ਇਹੁ ਮਨੂਆ ਖਿਨੁ ਨ ਟਿਕੈ ਬਹੁ ਰੰਗੀ ਦਹ ਦਹ ਦਿਸਿ ਚਲਿ ਚਲਿ ਹਾਢੇ ॥
Ih manū▫ā kẖin na tikai baho rangī ḏah ḏah ḏis cẖal cẖal hādẖe.
This mind does not hold still, even for an instant. Distracted by all sorts of distractions, it wanders around aimlessly in the ten directions

Page 232,
ਧਾਵਤੁ ਰਾਖੈ ਠਾਕਿ ਰਹਾਏ ॥
Ḏẖāvaṯ rākẖai ṯẖāk rahā▫e.
He controls, and restrains, and holds still the wandering mind

Page 656, Line 9
ਸੰਤਹੁ ਮਨ ਪਵਨੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਬਨਿਆ ॥
Sanṯahu man pavnai sukẖ bani▫ā.
O Saints, my windy mind has now become peaceful and still

Page 789, Line 12
ਦਹ ਦਿਸ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਧਾਵਦਾ ਗੁਰਿ ਠਾਕਿ ਰਹਾਇਆ ॥
Ḏah ḏis ih man ḏẖāvḏā gur ṯẖāk rahā▫i▫ā.
The mind runs around in the ten directions; the Guru holds it still

Page 1022, Line 17
ਧਾਵਤ ਰਾਖੇ ਠਾਕਿ ਰਹਾਇਆ ॥
Ḏẖāvaṯ rākẖe ṯẖāk rahā▫i▫ā.
He quiets and holds his wandering mind still

Page 1068, Line 8
ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਰੈ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਰੇ ਹਉਮੈ ਜਾਇ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥੫॥
Gur kai sabaḏ marai man māre ha▫umai jā▫e samā▫i▫ā. ||5||
He dies in the Word of the Guru's Shabad, and conquers his mind; stilling his egotism, he merges in the Lord. ||5||

Our Guru realized the power of mind, thus directed taking us beyond decimating mind, thus instead we make useless attempt to bring mind to stillness, sell it to satguru by stating, 'mann baichai satugur kai pass tis sevak kai karaj raas' Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

I thought it was forum rules to not give your own interpretation without full shabad.
Your gurmukhi and punjabi is way more advanced than my self taught efforts, but I cannot in the world see how you make the statement above ?
very poor 'made in china' quality !!!!!!

I will save you some effort and give the shabad below.....
Again, show me how Guruji is calling stilling the Mind useless here ?



ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਗ੍ਰਿਹਿ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਜੋ ਰਹੈ ॥
Gur kai garihi sevak jo rahai.
That selfless servant, who lives in the Guru's household,
ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਆਗਿਆ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਸਹੈ ॥
Gur kī āgi▫ā man mėh sahai.
is to obey the Guru's Commands with all his mind.
ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਕਰਿ ਕਛੁ ਨ ਜਨਾਵੈ ॥
Āpas ka▫o kar kacẖẖ na janāvai.
He is not to call attention to himself in any way.
ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਦ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥
Har har nām riḏai saḏ ḏẖi▫āvai.
He is to meditate constantly within his heart on the Name of the Lord.

ਮਨੁ ਬੇਚੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਪਾਸਿ ॥
Man becẖai saṯgur kai pās.
One who sells his mind to the True Guru -

ਤਿਸੁ ਸੇਵਕ ਕੇ ਕਾਰਜ ਰਾਸਿ ॥
Ŧis sevak ke kāraj rās.
that humble servant's affairs are resolved.
ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰਤ ਹੋਇ ਨਿਹਕਾਮੀ ॥
Sevā karaṯ ho▫e nihkāmī.
One who performs selfless service, without thought of reward,
ਤਿਸ ਕਉ ਹੋਤ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥
Ŧis ka▫o hoṯ parāpaṯ su▫āmī.
shall attain his Lord and Master.
ਅਪਨੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਜਿਸੁ ਆਪਿ ਕਰੇਇ ॥
Apnī kirpā jis āp kare▫i.
He Himself grants His Grace;
ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਲੇਇ ॥੨॥
Nānak so sevak gur kī maṯ le▫e. ||2||
O Nanak, that selfless servant lives the Guru's Teachings. ||2||


Does selling or offering your Mind mean you must never still it ?
How do you sacrifice and devote your Mind toward satguru, keeping in Mind that you have dozens of thoughts running through and He knows every single one of them ??

All my lowly knowledge and ignorance is telling me is that your interpretations are totally fabricated for your own personal use.

 

[Luckysingh]

so to that end, if you are a Hindu, you are correct, as is most of what you are writing, my argument is that in Sikhism Naam is something different, it is more of a connection, a very physical connection with Creation, rather than a spiritual connection of soul uniting.

Explain how Naam is the connection ?
What is this connection that I keep hearing ? is it connected to the air, the oxygen, the people ?

Then what I cannot understand is
if Naam is connection,
then what is Amrit ?
What is shabad ?
what is gurmantar?
what is jyot, where is jyot ?

They can't all possible mean ''connection with creation''
Is creation MAYA ?

What is the difference between 'jap' and 'dyan/meditate'........
It's not contemplate, because contemplate is 'Vichaar' isn't it ?

Do some of us think that guru used all these interchanging words like a thesaurus ??
Did he need to find words to match the raag ?
Japji sahib is not in raag !

Have I really missed the total point somewhere ?

Maybe if I see what some of you understand with the above, then I may begin to just thrive on the ''surface''

 

[Luckysingh]

A brilliant statement.

Please let me add that it also doesn't work if you take the parts of any one religion that you like and ignore the parts you don't like.

But all I can see is people ignoring parts that they don't like--especially the whole inward spirituality.
They would rather be busy with the outwardly, when you should be doing both.

some of us eat all the variety of veg and fruit given on a plate, but some like to grab out the bits they like first and leave the rest !

 

[Harry Haller]

Explain how Naam is the connection ?

sure, it is my heartfelt belief that to be in a state of Naam is to be in a state of awareness of surroundings and to be connected to Creation, in plain english, to be able to empathise with the people around you and to have respect for Creation around you, animals, nature, etc,.

It is also my heartfelt belief that the only way to be in a state of Naam is to respect the concept of Hukam, but that will wait for another thread. However, in plain english, I guess it is to be living a life of truth to the best of your ability and understanding, to feel the pain of others, to try and do something about it, to try and introduce truth into Creation, to attempt to bring light where there is darkness, not within yourself, but outside of yourself, into your environment, for no other reason than it is the right thing to do.

What is this connection that I keep hearing ? is it connected to the air, the oxygen, the people ?

Hmm if you could lose the sarcasm for a moment, you would find that yes, you are correct, the air, the oxygen, the people.

Then what I cannot understand is
if Naam is connection,
then what is Amrit ?
What is shabad ?
what is gurmantar?
what is jyot, where is jyot ?

Seeing as we are onto 19 pages and in your opinion the question was answered on page 1 ( I notice you answered on page 1!! lol) I hardly think we can cover 4 more similar questions in a paragraph, but as I like you, I will give it my best shot, but it is only my opinion

Amrit as in the ceremony, rather than the physical liquid, is a declaration of intent to keep up that connection as per the information given in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Shabad is the information as referred to above.

As for Gurmantar, well, I had to cheat here and refer to Sikhiwikki, which although I would not normally refer to this site for information, gives the following

GUR MANTAR, Punjabi Gurmantar, is that esoteric formula or term significant of the Supreme Being or the deity which the master or teacher confides to the neophyte to meditate on when initiating him into his spiritual discipline. The concept of mantra goes back to the pre-Vedic non-Aryan tradition and to the primitive cults of magic, animism and totemism.
It has since been a continuing element one way or another in the religious traditions of the world and traces of it pervade to this day among the most modern of them. The occultist and the tantrist believe that mantras have power over the deity and can make it confer the desired boon or favour. According to the Brahmanical tradition, the universe is under the power of the gods, the gods are under the power of the mantras and the mantras are under the power of the Brahmans. The mantras have power over the gods or forces of Nature, but the Absolute Reality or the Supreme Being is here excluded. The mantras of the occultist comprised words which, in most cases, were merely weird sounds or perversions of meaningful words. The repetition, ceaseless repetition in the prescribed manner, of these was believed to prove efficacious in producing the desired result. Mantras also began to be culled from scriptural texts, and were used for the purpose of propitiating the gods. Similarly, certain mystic words from Scriptures were chosen to be meditated upon to win release or liberation. Om is the highest mantra in the Hindu system.

According to Sikhiwikki, Bhai Gurdas (1551-1636) makes the statement "Vahiguru is the gurmantra; by repeating it thou hast thy ego erased," (Varan X111.2)., in my view , this statement is saying that Sikhs do not need a special word, as the supreme is the word, however, you have taken the view that this statement is actually condoning the use of mantras, that is your right, and I for one would not argue with it, it is only when a view is put forward that claims to be the definitive where I have a problem.

As for jyot, I will pass on that one, before we start on soul, conciousness, and all the other buzz words that keep popping up.

They can't all possible mean ''connection with creation''

well they don't.....

Is creation MAYA ?

It depends what your meaning of MAYA is....

What is the difference between 'jap' and 'dyan/meditate'........
It's not contemplate, because contemplate is 'Vichaar' isn't it ?

I am not a Punjabi Scholar, those questions are best put to a Scholar

Have I really missed the total point somewhere ?

no, you have not, you have embraced what you feel, and it works for you, brilliant, and I mean that, absolutely brilliant, well done, please please offer your opinions and your thoughts on as many threads as you can and I will be eternally grateful, thankful and happy we have someone on this forum, well several on this forum that can give us the spiritual aspect, the spiritual angle on what we are discussing, I want you guys to contribute as much as possible, to give your angle to the max.

All I ask is that you try not to make it sound like it is the only way and that the rest of us are deluded idiots, I find that offensive, and it makes me determined to put an opposing opinion up, not for me, not for the sake of argument, but so that those that read are aware that what you guys are saying is not word, it is not fact, it is your opinion and you are sharing it with us.

I hope my point is made, in the next few days, I intend to open some old threads on some old topics that could really do with some fresh debate, I hope to see you guys input and I hope we can all learn from it.

 

[japjisahib04]

S. Lucky Singh Jee,
Please re-read and you will find the answer in first pauree of japjisahib Guru Nanak denounces the observance of outwardly purifying, outwardly trying to still the mind(meditation), quenching fire of desire or just knowledge which does not reflect love or compassion,as a mean to seek communion with God and is mortals own fabrication out of ego and has nothing to do with gurmat. Instead in this stanza he proclaims importance of exploring the innerself, the conscience by internal Purity of mind, utilizing the mind for betterness of society, Contentment of mind and righteous knowledge of mind. Manh is boss and manh can be chanelled by the organs of manh and not by the organs of tan - ਮਨੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਮਨੁ ਮਨ ਤੇ ਮਾਨਿਆ ਮਨਸਾ ਮਨਹਿ ਸਮਾਈ ॥

 

[Luckysingh]

S. Lucky Singh Jee,
Please re-read and you will find the answer in first pauree of japjisahib Guru Nanak denounces the observance of outwardly purifying, outwardly trying to still the mind(meditation), quenching fire of desire or just knowledge which does not reflect love or compassion,as a mean to seek communion with God and is mortals own fabrication out of ego and has nothing to do with gurmat. Instead in this stanza he proclaims importance of exploring the innerself, the conscience by internal Purity of mind, utilizing the mind for betterness of society, Contentment of mind and righteous knowledge of mind. Manh is boss and manh can be chanelled by the organs of manh and not by the organs of tan - ਮਨੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਮਨੁ ਮਨ ਤੇ ਮਾਨਿਆ ਮਨਸਾ ਮਨਹਿ ਸਮਾਈ ॥

The 1st pauri does not answer the question in any way but it is telling you that you can't put any limitations or box his qualities.
I cannot see any of this justifying your interpretations. But if you insist, I am more than happy to see a sensible explanation.


I would also be most grateful, if you could address the explanations I gave in response to all the misinterpreted(in my view) references in your earlier post #163.
I responded extensively to each reference you made in post 166......http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/42331-what-is-naam-19.html#post197530

I would appreciate and be most obliged with a sensible response and discussion, rather than ignoring.

 

[japjisahib04]

S. Lucky Singh Ji,
There a possibility that we are taking the meanings of some words quite literally rather than delving into the true meanings what our visionary Gurus are trying to convey through the beautiful poetry of Gurbani? I am not as enlightened as you are, but my little understanding tells me that when gurbani says, ' ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਪੰਚ ਤਤ ਕੋ ਜੀਉ ॥ - since mind is invisible thus these elements are not physical elements but guru sahib is referring to kaam, krodh, lobh, moh, ahankar. I hope now it clarifies why I said mind is not creation of God. Similarly when guru sahib says, 'ਪਾਂਚ ਤਤ ਕੋ ਤਨੁ ਰਚਿਓ ਜਾਨਹੁ ਚਤੁਰ ਸੁਜਾਨ ॥ Oh enlightened mind, by following the gurmat path you have cultivated supreme virtues such as humility, devotion, compassion,contentment and sincerity in hearts, then only will be considered smart and transformed otherwise spiritually dead. Thus again these are not physical elements but elements for body of manh.

Each sentence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib has one central idea; it belongs to one common packet of enlightenment; words supports that central idea. For example, I interpret when divine message is conceived it is called brahma and once this divine message is transmitted to the organ and is lived practically that exercise is called Vishnu. Similarly negative and destructive thought process is called shiva or maha deva. If you find this understanding reasonable then I proceed further.

 

[Luckysingh]

but my little understanding tells me that when gurbani says, ' ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਪੰਚ ਤਤ ਕੋ ਜੀਉ ॥ - since mind is invisible thus these elements are not physical elements but guru sahib is referring to kaam, krodh, lobh, moh, ahankar. I hope now it clarifies why I said mind is not creation of God.

Yes, I completely understand where you are coming from.

I sincerely believe that Guru sahib is referring to 5 elements and that Panch tat=5 elements.
You see, you are saying that Mind is not creation of God, (assuming that it is referring to 5 dhut).
I believe that because you are not looking into what the Mind is more deeper, then you will come across too many contradictions if you keep this same approach.


Now, this is a big issue and topic itself and I have done some intense in-depth vichaar previously.
It is way too huge to discuss here, but I can give you some main points to help you understand my stance........I hope it helps!.....


You say that Mind is invisible, so it can't be creation of 5 elements ?
Well, my answer to that is Yes it is invisible/formless but it Can be creation of 5 tat as well, !!!!
How can that be ??

Remember that Mind is jyot saroop.
''Mann tu jyot saroop hai, apna mool pachan''- (The Mind is jyot manifestation but you have to find it's true Mool/origin or source)'

However, when you look at every single pankti that refers to Mind being 5 tat, then it seems a little contradicting to say that it is jyot saroop as well doesn't it ?
(I always tell myself that if gurbani seems to contradict, then it is my own misunderstanding and I need to delve further)

Well my Answer- it's not contradicting, because Guru ji is telling us it is jyot saroop, therefore it is from the same God who is beyond birth and death/ajooni and of no form, nirinkar...etc... agree ?

BUT- gurbani also tells us that the same Mind can be born in to physical creation. This means it can be within the confines/partial control of human body that takes birth.
Just like the rest of creation exists because of 5 elements, then the Mind within us also exists because of these same 5.

You could say before birth the Mind is in existence in pure form.
The same Mind is born within a human body that itself is created because of 5 tat.
Now that this Mind is under influence of ALL things in 5 tat(subtle/sukam/without form)
.....it starts to create it's own duality that gurbani talks about.
The same duality is the separateness by ego
This ego is the illusionary identity and it is also run by the 5 chor.

Basically Mind + Ego identity= Us manmukhs/humans
Minus the Ego, then Mind=God, jyot saroop, the source, the mool....etc..

That's why gurbani also says that the Mind is unique part of our existence because every organ within is influenced and maintained by another (lungs-stomach-liver-kidneys-heart...)
BUT as quoted in a few places in gurbani ..ONLY the MIND can Conquer and heal itself by itself !!!!
Which is why you have to look at both the veil of illusion/ego the mind is drowned in AND it's true inner jyot saroop,, hence the duality.

Gurbani is ''agam agad abodh'' (meaning-a treasure of unmeasurable depth that is Unreachable and Limitless)
This is why, as we progress spiritually, we begin to break the dividing line of duality within our own minds.
Therefore, when you look at gurbani, from just one side of the duality fence(as you explained from the ego side above)then you get a different meaning, but as you look closer and closer towards the other side, the meaning gets deeper and you understand it more strongly.

I can see your understanding and I hope you can follow and understand what I'm saying.
You may proceed further from previous posts and by all means tell me what part of my stance you don't follow or need further elaboration.0

 

[Sherdil]

In this discussion, 2 points about Naam stick out:
1) Naam manifests the universe.
2) It is something given by the divine.

Harry ji provided a reference from wiki, and I found a point that resonated with me. It is this: "It is believed that God existed before the creation of the universe. The name of God is therefore beyond the language structure created by mankind."

I think this is what the mool mantar is stating. Ik Oankaar, Sat Naam (One essence, whose name is Truth).

If I can fall back on the Sanskrit definition of Naam to be "name", then can we say that the name is "Oankaar"?

This solves the riddle of Naam manifesting the Universe. The definition of Naam is then explained in the rest of the mool mantar.

ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ੴ सति नामु करता पुरखु निरभउ निरवैरु अकाल मूरति अजूनी सैभं गुर प्रसादि ॥ Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯ nām karṯā purakẖ nirbẖa▫o nirvair akāl mūraṯ ajūnī saibẖaʼn gur parsāḏ. One Universal Creator God. The Name Is Truth. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent.By Guru's Grace ~

Then Sat Naam can also be explained. Sat (I like to call it objective truth) is Oankaar. This is the truth of everything. The singularity (Ek), if you will.

When gurbani says Naam is given by the divine, I take it to mean that we come to understand it only when we are meant to understand it. The eureka moment may not come during meditation or contemplation, but rather when we are relaxing near a lake or something like that. Legend has it that Isaac Newton formulated his theory on gravity after he saw an apple fall from a tree. Many scientific discoveries have similarly been the product of chance.

These are just my thoughts.

 

[Luckysingh]

Creation is the creator, BUT Creator is not creation in the sense that Creator was already in existence, and then he created his creation.

First there was a void and there was only the unstruck sound of ong.
'Ong gurmukh kio akhara' the creation was created through the word of God.

Then according to gurbani, followed pavan. From pavan the other 4 elements followed.
Pavan is not air, it is the life force.

 

[Sherdil]

Creation is the creator, BUT Creator is not creation in the sense that Creator was already in existence, and then he created his creation.

First there was a void and there was only the unstruck sound of ong.
'Ong gurmukh kio akhara' the creation was created through the word of God.

Then according to gurbani, followed pavan. From pavan the other 4 elements followed.
Pavan is not air, it is the life force.

I agree. Oang is the sound. Kar meaning "to do".

O = Create
AN = Sustain
NG = Destroy

The sound resonating as the Shabadh plays out existence, with the observable universe manifesting itself as different notes.

Even scientifically this makes sense, as matter is made of molecules vibrating at different frequencies.

Consciousness is not an element, so was it created or has it always existed? Sometimes I feel like gurbani is telling us that we are God. This is the only way I can reconcile the concepts of Hukam and free will.

 

[Luckysingh]

Consciousness is not an element, so was it created or has it always existed? Sometimes I feel like gurbani is telling us that we are God. This is the only way I can reconcile the concepts of Hukam and free will.

God is the supreme consciousness, and Yes we are part of that same conscious but we have to elevate it towards the God level.
Consciousness is not an element as you say and neither was it created and neither can it be destroyed.

I don't want to go off topic but Einstein was more God enlightened than people realize, he understood that something was keeping the universe in order and preventing scientific ''chaos'' because something is maintaining an always active 'order' in the universe.


He tried to explain this in the way of energy..... ''it is neither created or destroyed''
(Gurbani says the same that God conscious is neither born or dies)

This energy is from the same consciousness.

This consciousness is of no form as we understand and it exists everywhere even in a void.
However, whatever or wherever it is, it is always active and keeping the whole show of the universe in constant order.

 

[japjisahib04]

Now, this is a big issue and topic itself and I have done some intense in-depth vichaar previously.
It is way too huge to discuss here, but I can give you some main points to help you understand my stance........I hope it helps!.....


You say that Mind is invisible, so it can't be creation of 5 elements ?
Well, my answer to that is Yes it is invisible/formless but it Can be creation of 5 tat as well, !!!!
How can that be ??

Remember that Mind is jyot saroop.
''Mann tu jyot saroop hai, apna mool pachan''- (The Mind is jyot manifestation but you have to find it's true Mool/origin or source)'

However, when you look at every single pankti that refers to Mind being 5 tat, then it seems a little contradicting to say that it is jyot saroop as well doesn't it ?
(I always tell myself that if gurbani seems to contradict, then it is my own misunderstanding and I need to delve further)

Well my Answer- it's not contradicting, because Guru ji is telling us it is jyot saroop, therefore it is from the same God who is beyond birth and death/ajooni and of no form, nirinkar...etc... agree ?

BUT- gurbani also tells us that the same Mind can be born in to physical creation. This means it can be within the confines/partial control of human body that takes birth.
Just like the rest of creation exists because of 5 elements, then the Mind within us also exists because of these same 5.

You could say before birth the Mind is in existence in pure form.
The same Mind is born within a human body that itself is created because of 5 tat.
Now that this Mind is under influence of ALL things in 5 tat(subtle/sukam/without form)
.....it starts to create it's own duality that gurbani talks about.
The same duality is the separateness by ego
This ego is the illusionary identity and it is also run by the 5 chor.

Basically Mind + Ego identity= Us manmukhs/humans
Minus the Ego, then Mind=God, jyot saroop, the source, the mool....etc..

That's why gurbani also says that the Mind is unique part of our existence because every organ within is influenced and maintained by another (lungs-stomach-liver-kidneys-heart...)
BUT as quoted in a few places in gurbani ..ONLY the MIND can Conquer and heal itself by itself !!!!
Which is why you have to look at both the veil of illusion/ego the mind is drowned in AND it's true inner jyot saroop,, hence the duality.

Gurbani is ''agam agad abodh'' (meaning-a treasure of unmeasurable depth that is Unreachable and Limitless)
This is why, as we progress spiritually, we begin to break the dividing line of duality within our own minds.
Therefore, when you look at gurbani, from just one side of the duality fence(as you explained from the ego side above)then you get a different meaning, but as you look closer and closer towards the other side, the meaning gets deeper and you understand it more strongly.

I can see your understanding and I hope you can follow and understand what I'm saying.
You may proceed further from previous posts and by all means tell me what part of my stance you don't follow or need further elaboration.0

With due respect to you, it is only a matter how one understand the gurbani. Your reference, 'Mann tu jyot saroop hai, apna mool pachan''- (The Mind is jyot manifestation but you have to find it's true Mool/origin or source). My simple understanding upon reflecting sequence of nine stanzas is, once manh realizes its roots, then it is jyot sarup, otherwise it is a satan. As Bhagat kabir jee says, 'manh is built as per the company/enviornment and the natural tendency and who has succeeded in crossing bhavjal by keeping manh still. ਮਨ ਕਾ ਸੁਭਾਉ ਮਨਹਿ ਬਿਆਪੀ ॥ ਮਨਹਿ ਮਾਰਿ ਕਵਨ ਸਿਧਿ ਥਾਪੀ ॥੧॥ ਕਵਨੁ ਸੁ ਮੁਨਿ ਜੋ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਰੈ ॥ ਮਨ ਕਉ ਮਾਰਿ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਿਸੁ ਤਾਰੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 328.19.

A very famous saying, 'once I begin to understand myself(my roots), I begin to live and once I begin to live I see God in all and as such respect everyone. Unless one recognize the truth within, he is like a tree without roots. Without understanding the depth of gurbani, but repetition of a word, we could be very easily mislead by any sant baba, shriman 108 etc. Repetition of a word is only moving us at the surface level. No doubt why gurbani says, aakhan aukha sacha nau to walk at the surface level is very easy but to delve deeper on gurbani is difficult that is why people run after repetition. As gurbani says, ' ਦੇਖੌ ਭਾਈ ਗ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨ ਕੀ ਆਈ ਆਂਧੀ ॥ ਸਭੈ ਉਡਾਨੀ ਭ੍ਰਮ ਕੀ ਟਾਟੀ ਰਹੈ ਨ ਮਾਇਆ ਬਾਂਧੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ let us get out from all useless techniques and instead understand gurbani Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 331.17

 

[japjisahib04]

Yes, but Kabir ji is actually saying '' no one can cross over with killing the mind'' like the silent sage or siddha.
But at the same time, ''No one can perform devotional bhakti without killing it either''


ਮਨ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬੋਲੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਈ ॥
Man anṯar bolai sabẖ ko▫ī.
Everyone speaks through the mind.
the siddhas may be speaking or convincing themselves they have killed/overpowered it... but are they performing true devotional bhakti ?

ਮਨ ਮਾਰੇ ਬਿਨੁ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੨॥
Man māre bin bẖagaṯ na ho▫ī.
Without killing the mind, devotional worship is not performed. ||2||
cannot do devotional bakhti until after you have killed it, The overpowering and conquering is not the devotion itself, but just the 1st step.

ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੋ ਜਾਨੈ ਭੇਉ ॥
Kaho Kabīr jo jānai bẖe▫o.
Says Kabeer, one who knows the secret of this mystery,

ਮਨੁ ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਦੇਉ ॥੩॥੨੮॥
Man maḏẖusūḏan ṯaribẖavaṇ ḏe▫o. ||3||28||
beholds within his own mind the Lord of the three worlds. ||3||28||

over here, 'ਮਨ ਮਾਰੇ' stands for conquering fire of desires. Please check the context.

 

[japjisahib04]

Thanks for pointing out my ignorance but then how would you interpret, 'vin gun keetai bhagat hoey'