General What Is Happening With London Youth?

[dalsingh]

Lately there has been a big media frenzy about teenage violence on the streets of London. It is an issue close to my heart because large parts of my family are in this age group. To put it in perspective, the UK has lost about the same amount of soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan during the same time period. I just thought I'd try and start a discussion about this:

Police chief appeals for calm as 20th teenager killed - Times Online

 

[kds1980]

Well today I read in newspaper that about 50% of children are born in UK out wedlock.The figure
was 38.7% in 1996.The custom of marrying after birth is also disappearing.Welcome to the world of liberals

Many times I read from liberals that how religion is evil.But on the other hand they totally forget that over liberalism is much more dangerous and destructive to the society.

 

[dalsingh]

I think people have identified the breakdown of family values as one of the factors influencing this but is this all there is to it?

 

[Sinister]

Emile Durkheim's coined term "Anomie" could be a secondary reason?

cheers

 

[dalsingh]

Nice one Sinister. It's good to come across some new knowledge like this.

Emile Durkheim, a French sociologist, introduced the concept of anomie in his book The Division of Labour in Society, published in 1893. He used anomie to describe a condition of deregulation that was occurring in society. This meant that rules on how people ought to behave with each other were breaking down and thus people did not know what to expect from one another. Anomie, simply defined, is a state where norms (expectations on behaviours) are confused, unclear or not present. It is normlessness, Durkheim felt, that led to deviant behaviour. In 1897, Durkheim used the term again in his study on Suicide, referring to a morally deregulated condition. Durkheim was preoccupied with the effects of social change. He best illustrated his concept of anomie not in a discussion of crime but of suicide.
In The Division of Labour in Society, Durkheim proposed two concepts. First, that societies evolved from a simple, non-specialised form, called mechanical, toward a highly complex, specialised form, called organic. In the former society people behave and think alike and more or less perform the same work tasks and have the same group-oriented goals. When societies become more complex, or organic, work also becomes more complex. In this society, people are no longer tied to one another and social bonds are impersonal.
Anomie thus refers to a breakdown of social norms and it a condition where norms no longer control the activities of members in society. Individuals cannot find their place in society without clear rules to help guide them. Changing conditions as well as adjustment of life leads to dissatisfaction, conflict, and deviance. He observed that social periods of disruption (economic depression, for instance) brought about greater anomie and higher rates of crime, suicide, and deviance.
Durkheim felt that sudden change caused a state of anomie. The system breaks down, either during a great prosperity or a great depression, anomie is the same result.



http://www.hewett.norfolk.sch.uk/curric/soc/crime/anomie.htm

Interestingly Charles Dickens also painted a picture of underclass London as violent and crime ridden over a century ago. Is this just temporary media sensationalism or does a real problem exist?

 

[Sinister]

Well today I read in newspaper that about 50% of children are born in UK out wedlock.The figure
was 38.7% in 1996.The custom of marrying after birth is also disappearing.Welcome to the world of liberals

Many times I read from liberals that how religion is evil.But on the other hand they totally forget that over liberalism is much more dangerous and destructive to the society.

:ice: yum! i smell a debate


I would not blame religious orientation for crime nor liberalism (whatever this vague word means). Crime shows very little correlation with any of these.

When discussing crime it is very difficult to make an assessment without conducting proper and thorough research.

The article in the link you provided takes a very interactionist approach…in that it describes the crime of individuals on a micro-scale… but has no discussion of crime rates on a macro-scale.

Crime Rates are of key importance rather than just observing the number of incidents (not pegged up against a population chart).

Dalsingh you are right in that sense. The media has a bad habit of sensationalism (you cant blame them…they have to make a living…and a juicy story with drama and tragedy sells
well in the market)


people like kds1980 read this and automatically conclude the worst; and then start to point fingers and blame an entire body politic (liberalism)…without the thought that crime rates in the most liberal, secular and economically stable countries is always less than in socially conservative religious societies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homicide_rate

(go ahead and compare religious India to any western European country…or South Africa, Pakistan, Iran to liberal societies like the Netherlands, Finland, Belgium. England, Norway and even the US … ask yourself where would you be safer walking the streets at night)

Or you could continue to overlook the fact that atheists who make up 10% of the US population do not even constitute 0.5% of the US prison population (these ‘liberals’ are considerably underrepresented if you ask me).
Proof: http://www.skepticfiles.org/american/prison.htm
http://www.gc.cuny.edu/faculty/research_briefs/aris/key_findings.htm

(btw, the correlation that a liberal is an atheist may not be so true)

So the link with liberalism falls short on everything. However, I do agree with kds1980 on one thing, that the failure of nuclear families does lead to an increase in crime rate. However, the fact that "liberals" are against nuclear families is a fact fabricated from the bee-hind and about as ridiculous as flying monkeys. Socially conservative marriages ‘love’ to fall apart as well.
For facts read this:
http://www.thinkingliberal.com/the_free_radical/2006/10/why_do_republic.html

With the growth of better methods of litigation, better vigilance and cooperation by the police force with the public… crime rates have been dropping significantly from the centuries before (they fluctuate during times of uncertainty…again the link to Anomie). However, police forces are now putting more emphasis on crime prevention rather than chasing down petty criminals.
(I read this in a journal a while ago…as soon as I find it I will post it)


MUST SEE:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homicide_rate

(EXCELLENT SOURCE FOR COMPARISONS AND FOR DRAWING CORRELATIONS)

England has done many things wrong over the years:
The CCTV that you guys allowed on your streets has had no effect on deterring crime and only solves very few cases. Money and resources could have been better utilized elsewhere in deterring crime.

Gun laws should be re-examined because now it is a well-known fact that guns don’t kill but the uneven distribution of guns kills people. Guns in the hands of law abiding citizens decreases crime rates and the rate of hot burglaries (where criminal comes into confrontation with the victim).

Handguns increase violence (regardless of selective distribution)

If gun laws are too loose, this will also cause an increase in violent crime.

And if it is too difficult for the average citizen to own a firearm this also leads to increased crime.

The porridge has to be just right!

cheers

 

[Archived_Member_19]

its abt the tipping point

:inca:

<<even the US … ask yourself where would you be safer walking the streets at night>>

ah not in downtown Kansas city

 

[dalsingh]

I would not blame religious orientation for crime nor liberalism (whatever this vague word means). Crime shows very little correlation with any of these.

To fuel this debate:

OK but consider the fact that whilst conservativism looks down on divorce or what they consider to be non-traditional family setups liberalism (rightly or wrongly) is less discerning and doesn't place any sort of "pressure" (couldn't find a better word) to discourage this.

There IS a correlation between children growing up in single parent families and higher chances of such children becoming negatively involved in the legal system, at least in the UK. I recall reading that a disproportionate number of the youths in young offenders institutes come from such backgrounds.

People argue that liberalism has given rise to mothers who choose to raise children single handedly. With boys, this can be dangerous due to lack of immediate positive role models. Often they will fall into negative circles trying to find male models - i.e. gangs.

But to blame this on its own is false. Many children from quite stable backgrounds do horrendous things and many single parents do manage to raise solid, morally upright children.

 

[pk70]

( quote sinister)I would not blame religious orientation for crime nor liberalism (whatever this vague word means). Crime shows very little correlation with any of these.

When discussing crime it is very difficult to make an assessment without conducting proper and thorough research.
I concur

 

[Sinister]

To fuel this debate:

OK but consider the fact that whilst conservativism looks down on divorce or what they consider to be non-traditional family setups liberalism (rightly or wrongly) is less discerning and doesn't place any sort of "pressure" (couldn't find a better word) to discourage this.

There IS a correlation between children growing up in single parent families and higher chances of such children becoming negatively involved in the legal system, at least in the UK. I recall reading that a disproportionate number of the youths in young offenders institutes come from such backgrounds.

People argue that liberalism has given rise to mothers who choose to raise children single handedly. With boys, this can be dangerous due to lack of immediate positive role models. Often they will fall into negative circles trying to find male models - i.e. gangs.

But to blame this on its own is false. Many children from quite stable backgrounds do horrendous things and many single parents do manage to raise solid, morally upright children.

Dalsingh, we must also consider that these myopic dichotomies do not really exist in reality on an individual level.


People are liberal on some issues and conservative on others. Maneuvering around vague terms should be done with caution.

Some view themselves as liberal but may be conservative in the eyes of another…vice versa
There is no fixed measurement for self-definition.
(it is important to note, what we are comparing, when we have liberal vs conservative debate)


Hypothetically (no proof):
Lets say, people who are liberal with their marriage vows are more likely to raise violent and delinquent children because they are more likely to divorce and raise a child alone.

(perfectly sane argument)

But, because they are liberal with their marriage vows, they are considered liberal? (doesn’t sound right)

Also,
Ask yourself: “does the ‘pressure’ to stay together add strain to a relationship or does it relieve strain?”

Is a child in broken home; When the father beats his mother with a belt? Or when they are constantly yelling at the top of their lungs at each other?
Some say yes
Some say no
Is the father conservative? Or Is he liberal?

Would a liberal father beat his wife with a belt?

Is divorce an entirely bad thing at this point?

We can have many hypothetical situations; all I can show you is data.

And the data is the only thing that can be used to draw correlations.
I see none, that separate ‘liberal’ from ‘conservative’.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/06/28/crime-stats.html

 

[dalsingh]

Fair points Sinister.

But what do you think is causing the "amorie" you highlighted previously. Specifically what changes are occurring in society that may be giving rise to youth crime.

Even if dispute the severity of the problem in London, what we can say is that those involved in violence are definitely getting younger.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

lack of space

milwall club not recruiting enough youngsters

maybe you can blame {censored}ne Wenger if ur a spurs fan

{censored}nal academy gets more foreign youngsters than british

 

[Sinister]

Fair points Sinister.

But what do you think is causing the "amorie" you highlighted previously.

Anomie is a sociological term (and hypothesis) that can explain why crime and suicide rates increase during periods of economic boom and economic downturn and decrease during period of economic stagnation.

The word itself is extremely flexible.

Specifically what changes are occurring in society that may be giving rise to youth crime.

Even if dispute the severity of the problem in London, what we can say is that those involved in violence are definitely getting younger.

(are delinquents getting younger? make sure that they are with proof)
(assuming that they are...lets continue)

I have no idea why criminals are getting younger… but when in doubt take the easy route out and blame the media.
Easy access to violent internet porn, violent movies, games, the NEWS! you name it.
Children are more wired than ever, not only to each other but also to the adult community.
Adults can discern the differences between reality and fiction…children show difficulties.

Since the IT revolution; the internet has become a haven for Anomic behaviour...no rules no laws no accountability and no norms.

youngsters may experience the normlessness that Durkheim talked about, at a young age.

That could be a reason why delinquents are getting younger…they have more access to information at a younger age (they are either smarter or stupider…depends how you look at it)

Of co{censored} this is all hypothetical…I have provided no proof for anything I have stated.
(nor have we concluded the fact that crime is on the rise in London…it seems relatively stable)

now enough of my liberal rant,
to the Toyota Prius! I’m out of Organic Fruits. I will need alot considering tonight i make an offering to the black marble Obama idol that stands in my prayer room.

 

[dalsingh]

Hang on! Stop the press.

So reported crime has actually gone down and not increased?

BBC NEWS | UK | Recorded crime figures show fall

I found this from 5 years ago. Sound familiar....

BBC NEWS | Magazine | Is knife crime really getting worse?


Are we better just better off ignoring the media these days?

 

[Sinister]

Hang on! Stop the press.

So reported crime has actually gone down and not increased?

Are we better just better off ignoring the media these days?

Bingo! Only look at the news as entertainment

here are some RELIABLE sources.
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/bcs-publications.html
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/


http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs08/hosb0308.pdf
Homicide stats on Pg11

(WARNING: these stats are # of incidents NOT homicide rates)
The homicide rate was 13.7 per million population for 2007(which is decent)
75% of homicide victims were male

from 2006 to 2007 the homicide rate decreased by 2%.

Homicide numbers have been decreasing since 2001/2002 (6 years ago)


http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs08/hosb0308.pdf

I have looked at the chart on knife and gun crime rates (PAGE 41) are stable NOT INCREASING! (they are decreasing)


Gun Crimes HAVE decreased significantly from 2001/2002/2003


http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs08/hosb0408.pdf

everything looks DOWN from last year
except drug crimes (those crackheads are like roaches...hardy and persistent)

 

[Archived_Member_19]

you can surely ignore Sun or Daily mail

they reported today that Ronaldinho is going to Uzbekistan