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What Is God? Or In Which Type Of God Do You Believe?

Sep 8, 2010
70
74
Los Angeles
Re: What is God ? or, In which type of God do you believe?

Pardon me Freethinker ji but I think you misread Ambarsari ji's post.
I believe he said One Eternal Truth that is not limited to the realm of science but includes the truths of science - the unsolved mysteries - among other things.
Bhagat Singh Ji,

You are right. This is what Amarsari Ji said and this is what I read it as. This is why in the very first line of my post I referred to scientific knowledge that we currently have and the knowledge "to be discovered".

To put it bluntly, Science does not have a grasp of everything, it never will.
I have to respectfully disagree on this. This thought right here can push us back into the Dark Age.
If the scientific pioneers throughout our history would have thought on these lines, we would still be living without electricity thinking that our planet is flat.
Science does not claim to know everything. But that does not mean God is the answer to all unknowns.
Thousand years ago people thought that Gods made the rivers flow and Gods made the Sun rise and glow. Now we know better.
Till few hundred years back people thought that Gods caused the plagues. Now we know better. Similarly we have lot of unknowns now which people easily 'explain away' with God and Metaphysics. Given enough time, science will explain that too.

If God is needed to explain all the gaps in our current knowledge, then this God of gaps will keep shrinking as Science progresses.
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
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Dec 21, 2010
3,384
5,689
Re: What is God ? or, In which type of God do you believe?

I have to respectfully disagree on this. This thought right here can push us back into the Dark Age.
If the scientific pioneers throughout our history would have thought on these lines, we would still be living without electricity thinking that our planet is flat.
skeptic.freethinker1 ji thanks for your post. Perhaps one comment to clarify on the above point.

The thought of never fully understanding can be taken in two different ways. One as per your comment and one per mine here. The way I understand it as I posted from Gurbani is that it challenges us to always have a mindset to discover more. Continue on all journeys of discovery including science defined and science undefined right now. Don't believe in hocus-pocus but continue till you discover the truth. Discover more, and more, and more. The more you discover the more one will have abilities to live in consonance with all that is around in the Universe. If that is not a positive message then I don't know what is. This gives Sikhism the roots for an evergreen future for those who care to understand.

This is my God/Creator and this is the one I believe in.

Humbly submitted for discourse.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
Sep 8, 2010
70
74
Los Angeles
Re: What is God ? or, In which type of God do you believe?

The thought of never fully understanding can be taken in two different ways. One as per your comment and one per mine here. The way I understand it as I posted from Gurbani is that it challenges us to always have a mindset to discover more. Continue on all journeys of discovery including science defined and science undefined right now. Don't believe in hocus-pocus but continue till you discover the truth. Discover more, and more, and more. The more you discover the more one will have abilities to live in consonance with all that is around in the Universe. If that is not a positive message then I don't know what is.

Ambarsaria Ji,
If this is what you meant by "full would never be known" then I fully agree with you. Constant craving for knowledge is what drives the scientific progress.

This is my God/Creator and this is the one I believe in.
Nice to know this. I call this scientific knowledge because people attach many other connotations with the word 'God'. Again these might just be semantics.

Glad to see that we could agree.
 

Tejwant Singh

Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jun 30, 2004
5,028
7,188
Henderson, NV.
Re: What is God ? or in which type of God do You Believe?

Skeptic.Freethinker ji,

Guru Fateh.

I am still waiting for the response of the question I posted.

Would appreciate it so we can interact on this matter.

Tejwant Singh
 
Sep 8, 2010
70
74
Los Angeles
Re: What is God ? or in which type of God do You Believe?

I am still waiting for the response of the question I posted.

Tejwant Ji,

As I mentioned in my post to Spnadmin Ji, I had typed in a response but since she requested me not to pursue that line of thought, I did not post.

Your question was around how I describe God?
In my response, considering Spnadmin Ji's request, I will have to refer you back to my post to Harry Haller Ji where I gave an example of teacup. It was Post#49. Specifically read the last line.
 

Tejwant Singh

Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jun 30, 2004
5,028
7,188
Henderson, NV.
Re: What is God ? or in which type of God do You Believe?

Skeptic.freethinker1 ji.

Guru Fateh.

You write:

Some might believe it is red and some might believe it is blue. But none of it matters since the teacup doesn't exist.
Is it possible that you may be in the wrong forum because Sikhi has no God to start with because God is a personified deity and Sikhi has none of that, hence it has nothing to do with the above claim of yours as far as Sikhi is concerned?

I have no idea how much you know about Sikhi, Ik Ong Kaar is in the wow and awe factors that surround us and Guru Nanak himself said that the Universe is ever expanding 500 some years ago and that too without the help of any telescope because he could see it while looking at the sky and using his sense of pragmatism on which Sikhi is based. I assure you that no white bearded man in a long white dress came and whispered that in his ears.

Sikhi breeds free thinkers and open mindedness which require a bit of skepticism anyway.

If you have any questions about Sikhi, please do not hesitate to ask.

Regards

Tejwant Singh
 
Sep 8, 2010
70
74
Los Angeles
Re: What is God ? or in which type of God do You Believe?

Tejwant Ji,
Sikhi has no God to start with because God is a personified deity and Sikhi has none of that
If this is indeed true then I think I agree with this part of Sikh philosophy. Thanks for clarifying that the term 'God' refers to a personified deity. I have seen many people on this forum and outside using 'God' to refer to other abstract concepts like 'knowledge' and energy.

Is it possible that you may be in the wrong forum because Sikhi has no God to start with
I think you are right. We all seem to be in the wrong sub-forum because this thread is probably in the wrong sub-forum. The thread is titled 'What is God' and the Sub-forum's name is 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism'. Since Sikhism does not have any concept of God, the thread does not seem to belong in this sub-forum, but it is for the admins to decide which thread belongs where.
In fact it's weird that there are so many threads discussing God in this very sub-forum of 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism'. There is even a sticky thread on the top titled 'Meditation on God's help'.

Thanks for clarifying this aspect of Sikh religion. I appreciate it.
 
Jan 3, 2012
3
3
36
India,Punjab
Re: What is God ? or in which type of God do You Believe?

If, as you believe, there is an almighty, omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent God-who created the earth or world, please let me know why did he create it ? This world of woes and miseries, a veritable, eternal combination of numberless tragedies: Not a single soul being perfectly satisfied.
Pray, don't say that it is His Law: If he is bound by any law, he is not omnipotent. He is another slave like ourselves. Please don't say that it is his enjoyment. Nero burnt one Rome. He killed a very limited number of people. He created very few tragedies, all to his perfect enjoyment. And what is his place in History? By what names do the historians mention him? All the venomous epithets are showered upon him. Pages are blackened with invective diatribes condemning Nero, the tyrant, the heartless, the wicked.
One Changezkhan sacrificed a few thousand lives to seek pleasure in it and we hate the very name. Then how are you going to justify your almighty, eternal Nero, who has been, and is still causing numberless tragedies every day, every hour and every minute? How do you think to support his misdoings which surpass those of Changez every single moment? I say why did he create this world - a veritable hell, a place of constant and bitter unrest? Why did the Almighty create man when he had the power not to do it? What is the justification for all this ? Do you say to award the innocent sufferers hereafter and to punish the wrong-doers as well? Well, well: How far shall you justify a man who may dare to inflict wounds upon your body to apply a very soft and soothing liniment upon it afterwards? How far the supporters and organizers of the Gladiator Institution were justified in throwing men before the half starved furious lions to be cared for and well looked after if they could survive and could manage to escape death by the wild beasts? That is why I ask, 'Why did the conscious supreme being created this world and man in it? To seek pleasure? Where then is the difference between him and Nero'?
Call him today. Show him the past history. Make him study the present situation. Let us see if he dares to say, "All is well".
From the dungeons of prisons, from the stores of starvation consuming millions upon millions of human beings in slums and huts, from the exploited laborers, patiently or say apathetically watching the procedure of their blood being sucked by the Capitalist vampires, and the wastage of human energy that will make a man with the least common sense shiver with horror, and from the preference of throwing the surplus of production in oceans rather than to distribute amongst the needy producers - to the palaces of kings built upon the foundation laid with human bones.... let him see all this and let him say "All is well".
Why and wherefore? That is my question. You are silent.
All right then, I proceed. Well, you Sikhs, you say all the present sufferers belong to the class of sinners of the previous births. Good. You say the present oppressors were saintly people in their previous births, hence they enjoy power. But let us analyze how far this argument can really stand.
From the point of view of the most famous jurists punishment can be justified only from three or four ends to meet which it is inflicted upon the wrongdoer. They are retributive, reformative and deterrent. The retributive theory is now being condemned by all the advanced thinkers. Deterrent theory is also following the same fate. Reformative theory is the only one which is essential, and indispensable for human progress. It aims at returning the offender as a most competent and a peace-loving citizen to the society. But what is the nature of punishment inflicted by God upon men even if we suppose them to be offenders. You say he sends them to be born as a cow, a cat, a tree, a herb or a best. You enumerate these punishments to be 84 lakhs. I ask you what is its reformative effect upon man? How many men have met you who say that they were born as a donkey in previous birth for having committed any sin? None. Moreover do you know that the greatest sin in this world is to be poor. Poverty is a sin, it is a punishment.
I ask you how far would you appreciate a criminologist, a jurist or a legislator who proposes such measures of punishment which shall inevitably force man to commit more offences? Had not your God thought of this or he also had to learn these things by experience, but at the cost of untold sufferings to be borne by humanity?
I ask why your omnipotent God, does not stop every man when he is committing any sin or offence? He can do it quite easily. Why did he not kill war lords or kill the fury of war in them and thus avoid the catastrophe hurled down on the head of humanity by the Great War? Why does he not infuse the altruistic enthusiasm in the hearts of all capitalists to forgo their rights of personal possessions of means of production and thus redeem the whole laboring community - nay the whole human society from the bondage of Capitalism. You want to reason out the practicability of socialist theory, I leave it for your almighty to enforce it.

 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,769
8,194
54
Re: What is God ? or in which type of God do You Believe?

If, as you believe, there is an almighty, omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent God-who created the earth or world, please let me know why did he create it ? This world of woes and miseries, a veritable, eternal combination of numberless tragedies: Not a single soul being perfectly satisfied.Untrue, there are many satisfied souls, myself being one of them, Creator created, Creator cannot take responsibility for our actions in how this world has turned out
Pray, don't say that it is His Law: If he is bound by any law, he is not omnipotent. He is another slave like ourselves.It is not his law, it is the opposite, it is down to our law, if we all followed Hukam, the world would be a better place, but we do not, so disease, imbalance of assets, environmental tragedies all take place as a consequence, Please don't say that it is his enjoyment.Creator enjoys seeing Creation living in perfect harmony Nero burnt one Rome. He killed a very limited number of people. He created very few tragedies, all to his perfect enjoyment. And what is his place in History? By what names do the historians mention him? All the venomous epithets are showered upon him. Pages are blackened with invective diatribes condemning Nero, the tyrant, the heartless, the wicked.
One Changezkhan sacrificed a few thousand lives to seek pleasure in it and we hate the very name. Then how are you going to justify your almighty, eternal Nero, who has been, and is still causing numberless tragedies every day, every hour and every minute? As stated, Creator does not cause these tragedies, they are man or nature made, what Creator does is give us ways and philosophies to handle and deal with these tragedies, Sikhi is not magic, no hocus pocus, no prayers and miracles, it is pragmatic way to live life How do you think to support his misdoings which surpass those of Changez every single moment? I say why did he create this world - a veritable hell, a place of constant and bitter unrest? Why did the Almighty create man when he had the power not to do it? What is the justification for all this ? Do you say to award the innocent sufferers hereafter and to punish the wrong-doers as well?This and most of your post is based on an Abrahamic view of God, the God that we believe in and accept does not punish or reward Well, well: How far shall you justify a man who may dare to inflict wounds upon your body to apply a very soft and soothing liniment upon it afterwards? How far the supporters and organizers of the Gladiator Institution were justified in throwing men before the half starved furious lions to be cared for and well looked after if they could survive and could manage to escape death by the wild beasts? That is why I ask, 'Why did the conscious supreme being created this world and man in it? To seek pleasure? Where then is the difference between him and Nero'?Creator created so that we all learn to live in consonance with each other and rest of Creation, as Sikhs, We are here to assist in the sharing of love and to learn the ability to see Creator in everything, to find peace, to live life by Hukam, and through that to find more peace and happiness than can be obtained through the senses, to have a connection
Call him today. Show him the past history. Make him study the present situation. Let us see if he dares to say, "All is well". All is not well, but do not blame Creator, there is nature, our own stupidity, natural disasters, Creator teaches us how to straddle all these and live a good life as defined by Creator
From the dungeons of prisons, from the stores of starvation consuming millions upon millions of human beings in slums and huts, from the exploited laborers, patiently or say apathetically watching the procedure of their blood being sucked by the Capitalist vampires, and the wastage of human energy that will make a man with the least common sense shiver with horror, and from the preference of throwing the surplus of production in oceans rather than to distribute amongst the needy producers - to the palaces of kings built upon the foundation laid with human bones.... let him see all this and let him say "All is well".Creator cannot think for us as humans, Creator gives us options and gives us the correct answer every time, it is us as humans who ignore and choose the path of least resistance and most pleasure, years of these actions have resulted in the world before you
Why and wherefore? That is my question. You are silent.
All right then, I proceed. Well, you Sikhs, you say all the present sufferers belong to the class of sinners of the previous births. Good. You say the present oppressors were saintly people in their previous births, hence they enjoy power. But let us analyze how far this argument can really stand. This is not what Sikhs believe, this is Vedic. Sikhs get one life and one life only, then its wormfood
From the point of view of the most famous jurists punishment can be justified only from three or four ends to meet which it is inflicted upon the wrongdoer. They are retributive, reformative and deterrent. The retributive theory is now being condemned by all the advanced thinkers. Deterrent theory is also following the same fate. Reformative theory is the only one which is essential, and indispensable for human progress. It aims at returning the offender as a most competent and a peace-loving citizen to the society. But what is the nature of punishment inflicted by God upon men even if we suppose them to be offenders. You say he sends them to be born as a cow, a cat, a tree, a herb or a best. You enumerate these punishments to be 84 lakhs. I ask you what is its reformative effect upon man? How many men have met you who say that they were born as a donkey in previous birth for having committed any sin? None. Moreover do you know that the greatest sin in this world is to be poor. Poverty is a sin, it is a punishment. As stated, this is not consistent with Sikhi, the idea is to learn and change in this one life
I ask you how far would you appreciate a criminologist, a jurist or a legislator who proposes such measures of punishment which shall inevitably force man to commit more offences? Had not your God thought of this or he also had to learn these things by experience, but at the cost of untold sufferings to be borne by humanity? You need to address this issue to a Hindu forum as, again, this is not a Sikh issue
I ask why your omnipotent God, does not stop every man when he is committing any sin or offence? He can do it quite easily. Why did he not kill war lords or kill the fury of war in them and thus avoid the catastrophe hurled down on the head of humanity by the Great War? Why does he not infuse the altruistic enthusiasm in the hearts of all capitalists to forgo their rights of personal possessions of means of production and thus redeem the whole laboring community - nay the whole human society from the bondage of Capitalism. You want to reason out the practicability of socialist theory, I leave it for your almighty to enforce it. It is called free will, Creator does not interfere with Creation, if I get drunk and decide to drive home, and see a tree come out of the fuzzy haze, and I supposed to pray and hope God changes the law of physics and somehow makes the tree vanish? or make people come back to life again? or cure HIV? or make herpes go away? no, Creation moves on, we are all here to validate and check each other, do not blame Hitler on Creator, blame the many people that followed him, if we are to think and action, we must take responsibility for such, to the end. Creator has given us knowledge and information, embrace this, and despite what is happening around you, you will be happy and content and following Hukam, and maybe together we can make the world a better place instead of sitting on our behinds chanting for Creator to put OUR mess right


mundahug
 
Jan 3, 2012
3
3
36
India,Punjab
Re: What is God ? or in which type of God do You Believe?

If, as you believe, there is an almighty, omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent God-who created the earth or world, please let me know why did he create it ? This world of woes and miseries, a veritable, eternal combination of numberless tragedies: Not a single soul being perfectly satisfied.Untrue, there are many satisfied souls, myself being one of them, Creator created, Creator cannot take responsibility for our actions in how this world has turned out. Why can't God take responsibility for how this world has turned out. Parents are responsible for the well-being of their child. Parents duty is not just to give birth to a child but they bother to give him good education and all other things which they need, and take care of their actions and do as much as they can even if child do misdeeds. So if God created this world and he treat everybody as his child, then he should take the responsibility for how this world has turned out.
Pray, don't say that it is His Law: If he is bound by any law, he is not omnipotent. He is another slave like ourselves.It is not his law, it is the opposite, it is down to our law, if we all followed Hukam, the world would be a better place, but we do not, so disease, imbalance of assets, environmental tragedies all take place as a consequence, well most of these environmental tragedies, disease, imbalance of assets takes place to those people who followed his Hukam, but those who do not obey his Hukam, are in better situation than formers. Please don't say that it is his enjoyment.Creator enjoys seeing Creation living in perfect harmony, O a picture of present world I present to you is perfect harmony for you and creator is enjoying seeing all this. Then how merciless he is. Nero burnt one Rome. He killed a very limited number of people. He created very few tragedies, all to his perfect enjoyment. And what is his place in History? By what names do the historians mention him? All the venomous epithets are showered upon him. Pages are blackened with invective diatribes condemning Nero, the tyrant, the heartless, the wicked.
One Changezkhan sacrificed a few thousand lives to seek pleasure in it and we hate the very name. Then how are you going to justify your almighty, eternal Nero, who has been, and is still causing numberless tragedies every day, every hour and every minute? As stated, Creator does not cause these tragedies, they are man or nature made, what Creator does is give us ways and philosophies to handle and deal with these tragedies, Sikhi is not magic, no hocus pocus, no prayers and miracles, it is pragmatic way to live life. ha, he gave us ways and philosophies to handle and deal with these tragedies, why don't he just stop all these tragedies himself when he is so powerful to create this whole world. How do you think to support his misdoings which surpass those of Changez every single moment? I say why did he create this world - a veritable hell, a place of constant and bitter unrest? Why did the Almighty create man when he had the power not to do it? What is the justification for all this ? Do you say to award the innocent sufferers hereafter and to punish the wrong-doers as well?This and most of your post is based on an Abrahamic view of God, the God that we believe in and accept does not punish or reward Well It is written in Gurbani, that those who do misdeeds will get punishment for this as As you sow so shall you reap. I ask why your omnipotent God, does not stop every man when he is committing any sin or offence? He can do it quite easily. Why did he not kill war lords or kill the fury of war in them and thus avoid the catastrophe hurled down on the head of humanity by the Great War? Why does he not infuse the altruistic enthusiasm in the hearts of all capitalists to forgo their rights of personal possessions of means of production and thus redeem the whole laboring community - nay the whole human society from the bondage of Capitalism. You want to reason out the practicability of socialist theory, I leave it for your almighty to enforce it. It is called free will, Creator does not interfere with Creation, if I get drunk and decide to drive home, and see a tree come out of the fuzzy haze, and I supposed to pray and hope God changes the law of physics and somehow makes the tree vanish? or make people come back to life again? or cure HIV? or make herpes go away? no, Creation moves on, we are all here to validate and check each other, do not blame Hitler on Creator, blame the many people that followed him, if we are to think and action, we must take responsibility for such, to the end. Creator has given us knowledge and information, embrace this, and despite what is happening around you, you will be happy and content and following Hukam, and maybe together we can make the world a better place instead of sitting on our behinds chanting for Creator to put OUR mess right. Well I agree with you that what ever wrong deeds we have done, we get punishment for that. But what about those innocent people who never did any such misdeeds and born in a poor family and due to their poverty they could not get education, and live in misery?
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,769
8,194
54
Re: What is God ? or in which type of God do You Believe?

Harjinderji,

Why can't God take responsibility for how this world has turned out. Parents are responsible for the well-being of their child. Parents duty is not just to give birth to a child but they bother to give him good education and all other things which they need, and take care of their actions and do as much as they can even if child do misdeeds. So if God created this world and he treat everybody as his child, then he should take the responsibility for how this world has turned out.

Why should God take responsibility? Parents are responsible only for educating and showing their children the correct way, and God has done that by giving us the SGGS. My parents did everything they could to bring me up as a good Sikh boy, they could have done no more, yet I ignored their advice and education and followed my own way, much to my detriment (bankruptcy/quad bypass/etc etc etc), now according to your logic this is their fault, but it was me sitting at casino tables, it was me stuffing every narcotic down my throat, so it is me that has to deal with the consequences, although my parents have been hugely supportive, it is only as they are so gracious they are able to keep helping despite warning me away from certain lifestyle choices. what my parents have finally done is help me by supporting me as I battle the demons I myself have created, so it is with Creator, Creator tells us what is good and what is bad, it is our choice, but even when we fall, Creator is there to help us get back on our feet again

well most of these environmental tragedies, disease, imbalance of assets takes place to those people who followed his Hukam, but those who do not obey his Hukam, are in better situation than formers

Following Hukam is no guarantee that bad things will not happen, bad things happen for a variety of reasons, following Hukam IS a guarantee that no matter what comes your way, you will be able to deal with it, you seem to think Creator has an interest in the day to day goings ons in our world, Creator has given us all tools to make our own bed, Creator does not take responsibility for our actions or consequences

O a picture of present world I present to you is perfect harmony for you and creator is enjoying seeing all this. Then how merciless he is

This is not perfect harmony, Creator is not enjoying seeing all this, Creator has given full responsibility for our environment to us. Creator would enjoy seeing all living beings living in consonance and harmony.

ha, he gave us ways and philosophies to handle and deal with these tragedies, why don't he just stop all these tragedies himself when he is so powerful to create this whole world.

Where do you draw the line, I knew gambling was bad, but I carried out regardless, are you suggesting once I had lost all my money, Creator should magic some up, as it is in the power of Creator? I knew narcotics were bad, are you suggesting Creator should magically unblock the 4 arteries that became fully blocked? Everything we do has consequences, and we must deal with these consequences without whining to Creator. The time to converse with Creator is before the action, not before the consequences begin.

Well It is written in Gurbani, that those who do misdeeds will get punishment for this as As you sow so shall you reap

It is written that there are consequences for all actions throug Creation, kick a dog, it will bite you, drive fast in the rain, you may crash, there are no misdeeds or sins, everything has a good consequence or a bad consequence, it is certainly not Creator that is in charge of this, Creator leaves it to ourselves to manage our own business, judgement comes from Creation

Well I agree with you that what ever wrong deeds we have done, we get punishment for that. But what about those innocent people who never did any such misdeeds and born in a poor family and due to their poverty they could not get education, and live in misery?

I know many people from poor familes who have done fine, in Sikhism, enlightenment is open to anyone from any race/sex/colour/social standing, being poor does not stop anyone from being a good Sikh, we can all do different things with the same hand, some will lose, some will win, some will end up angry, some will end up full of love, there is no divine punishment, no stern looks, no pats on backs, We answer the the Creator that resides in our head, hell is guilt and fear, heaven is peace and love, right now, right here
 

BaljinderS

SPNer
Dec 29, 2011
171
251
First of All, Welcome to SPN Chinu veere! welcomekaur

The word "God" automatically makes you think of Akaal Purkh in Western terms which suggests God as External entity. I think that is what you are implying when you say "Type of God". God is omnipresent, we are all part of "God".

Sikhism is about realising your true self so that your can merge back into Akaal Purkh. Sikhism gives you the tools and provides a pathway for this.

If you really want to understand God then I guess you need the understand the qualities of God. Sikhism suggest many practical ways of realising God, one very important way is through congregation (Sangat) with holy folks.

Please let me know what you think...hopefully what I said makes sense :happysingh:
 
Jan 3, 2012
3
3
36
India,Punjab
@Harry Haller: you said sikhism does not believe in reincarnation and this is the only life we have and only chance to realize GOD. well then what does these words of Gurbani meant: Nanak Purab likhe ka likhiya payiae
 

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