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What does term 'Excommunication' mean in light of Guru Nanak's Philosophy?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by spnadmin, Feb 17, 2010.

  1. spnadmin

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    The thread topic is inspired by questions raised in another thread "Action Against Those Honoring Ragi Likely."

    The separation that Guru Nanak speaks of is spiritual separation -- in one sense one is ex-communicated or beyond the zone of contact and has not attached to the Guru's feet. Yet the possibility is ever present that one can become re-connected. One can be in re-communication.

    Ang 1426 Guru Arjan dev ji

    <table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਵਂ​*ੀ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਵਹਣਿ ਲੁੜ੍ਹ੍ਹੰਦੜੀ ਜਾਇ ॥੧੬॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">dhoojai bhaavanaee naanakaa vehan lurrhandharree jaae ||16||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">In the love of duality, O Nanak, the mortals are being washed downstream. ||16||
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਤਿਹਟੜੇ ਬਾਜਾਰ ਸਉਦਾ ਕਰਨਿ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">thihattarrae baajaar soudhaa karan vanajaariaa ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">In the markets and bazaars of the three qualities, the merchants make their deals.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਸਚੁ ਵਖਰੁ ਜਿਨੀ ਲਦਿਆ ਸੇ ਸਚੜੇ ਪਾਸਾਰ ॥੧੭॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">sach vakhar jinee ladhiaa sae sacharrae paasaar ||17||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">Those who load the true merchandise are the true traders. ||17||
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਪੰਥਾ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਨ ਜਾਣਈ ਭੂਲੀ ਫਿਰੈ ਗਵਾਰਿ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">panthhaa praem n jaanee bhoolee firai gavaar ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">Those who do not know the way of love are foolish; they wander lost and confused.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਬਿਸਰਾਇ ਕੈ ਪਉਦੇ ਨਰਕਿ ਅੰਧ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਰ ॥੧੮॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">naanak har bisaraae kai poudhae narak andhhyaar ||18||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">O Nanak, forgetting the Lord, they fall into the deep, dark pit of hell. ||18||
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਮਾਇਆ ਮਨਹੁ ਨ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਮਾਂਗੈ ਦੰਮਾਂ ਦੰਮ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">maaeiaa manahu n veesarai maangai dhanmaan dhanm ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">In his mind, the mortal does not forget Maya; he begs for more and more wealth.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਸੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਹੀ ਕਰੰਮਿ ॥੧੯॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">so prabh chith n aavee naanak nehee karanm ||19||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">That God does not even come into his consciousness; O Nanak, it is not in his karma. ||19||
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਤਿਚਰੁ ਮੂਲਿ ਨ ਥੁੜਂ​*ੀਦੋ ਜਿਚਰੁ ਆਪਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲੁ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">thichar mool n thhurranaeedho jichar aap kirapaal ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">The mortal does not run out of capital, as long as the Lord Himself is merciful.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader"> 5

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਸਬਦੁ ਅਖੁਟੁ ਬਾਬਾ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਖਾਹਿ ਖਰਚਿ ਧਨੁ ਮਾਲੁ ॥੨੦॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">sabadh akhutt baabaa naanakaa khaahi kharach dhhan maal ||20||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">The Word of the Shabad is Guru Nanak's inexhaustible treasure; this wealth and capital never runs out, no matter how much it is spent and consumed. ||20||
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਖੰਭ ਵਿਕਾਂਦੜੇ ਜੇ ਲਹਾਂ ਘਿੰਨਾ ਸਾਵੀ ਤੋਲਿ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">khanbh vikaandharrae jae lehaan ghinnaa saavee thol ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">If I could find wings for sale, I would buy them with an equal weight of my flesh.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਤੰਨਿ ਜੜਾਂਈ ਆਪਣੈ ਲਹਾਂ ਸੁ ਸਜਣੁ ਟੋਲਿ ॥੨੧॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">thann jarraanee aapanai lehaan s sajan ttol ||21||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">I would attach them to my body, and seek out and find my Friend. ||21||
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">

    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="ggs">ਸਜਣੁ ਸਚਾ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ਸਿਰਿ ਸਾਹਾਂ ਦੈ ਸਾਹੁ ॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="subhead">sajan sachaa paathisaahu sir saahaan dhai saahu ||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffec"><td class="shlok">My Friend is the True Supreme King, the King over the heads of kings.
    </td></tr><tr><td class="rmenuheader">
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="ggs">ਜਿਸੁ ਪਾਸਿ ਬਹਿਠਿਆ ਸੋਹੀਐ ਸਭਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਵੇਸਾਹੁ ॥੨੨॥
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="subhead">jis paas behithiaa soheeai sabhanaan dhaa vaesaahu ||22||
    </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffecec"><td class="shlok">Sitting by His side, we are exalted and beautified; He is the Support of all. ||22||</td></tr></tbody></table>
    Can then in good conscience one human being disconnect another human being from contact with sangat wherein one is guided to the Satguru I am raising this as a moral and ethical question, not as a legalistic question.

    Put differently: Are there any values taught to us in Sri Guru Granth Sahib that would justify excommunication?
     
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  3. kds1980

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    Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?

    Narayanjot ji

    Is it not a well known truth that ram raliya's were excommunicated from sikh panth.As a sikh religion it is our duty to see that if someone is threat to our religion then he/she should be excommunicated from sikh panth
     
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  4. spnadmin

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    Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?

    How is excommunication supposed to be implemented - if indeed it is consistent with the Sikh Rehat Maryada? and how is it justified in terms of the Sikh Rehat Maryada, or the words of Gurbani itself? Was the Sikh Rehat Marayada followed in the context of my question?

    This is the article that triggered the original questions offered by another forum member: "Action Likely Against Those who Honor Ragi"


    Were Gurmat values followed in determining who is a threat to the religion in that situation or -- in recent history?
     
  5. BhagatSingh

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    Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?

    How does excommunication help the Sikh religion? or indeed any other religion?
     
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  6. Tejwant Singh

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    Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?

    Bhagat Singh ji,

    Guru fateh.

    Great question!

    Lots of people confuse Sikhi with other dogmatic religions where people are kicked out, ex-communicated and these people then go to the WalMart of religions/denominations and choose one more to their present liking.

    The case in point is "Rev. Alberto Cutié, the popular Miami Beach priest famous for his Spanish-language television and radio talk shows, cavorting amorously on a Florida beach with an attractive woman.

    Read more: The Father Cutie Scandal: Sex and the Single Priest - TIME

    Alberto Cutié, the popular Catholic priest in Miami who was caught canoodling with his lady love, has now switched denominations to the Episcopal Church and plans to marry.

    Miami priest Cutie joins Episcopal Church - Articles of Faith - Boston.com

    Sikhi is not based on these kinds of dogmatic principles.

    How can one stop a Sikh from learning because we all know that the wrod Sikh stands for a student?

    How can some authourity make someone divorce one from the self?

    The basic idea of establishing the Akal Takhat by Guru Hargobind Sahib was to solve the problems that Sikhi faced so it could advance on its spiritual path. Its main objective was and still is to act like a machete to make the Sikhi marg accessible to all who seek to walk the walk.

    What the honchos in power have done is to make mockery of this beautiful idea and induce Hindutva mentality in it rather trying to find ways to totally get rid of it.

    A True Akal Takhat can still do that.

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  7. BhagatSingh

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    Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?

    Thanks for replying, but you haven't asnwered the question:
    How does excommunication help?

    Though, after reading your response, there was another question in my head.
    Can one learn his/her way out of Sikhism's principles and still be called Sikh?
     
  8. Tejwant Singh

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    Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?

    The question about ex communication is asked by me several times, the latest in the following thread:
    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/29127-action-against-those-honoring-ragi-likely-3.html

    Define Sikhism's principles and also Sikh.
     
  9. BhagatSingh

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    Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?

    Well, certain principles like vand shakna are engrained in Human psyche. Sachi kirt karni is an ideal we look up to and again is based on principles engrained in human psyche. but things like Belief in God, reincarnation, 4 Time periods: Satyug etc, and so on, you could leave and end up choosing either choose a different set of beliefs or no beliefs at all. If you do taht are you still a Sikh?
    maybe I should rephrase the question slightly.
    Can one learn his/her way out of Sikhism's beliefs and still be called Sikh?
     
  10. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?

    Ram rai and his followers....
    and earlier UDASI followers of the FIRST REBEL in Gurmatt..SRI CHAND son of Guru nanak Ji.....
    Sons of Guru Angad Ji...Sons of Guru Amardass Ji....Mohan etc....who wote spurious "bani" under Nanak Chhaap to fool sikhs...
    Prithi Chand..and his descendants..who SAT on Thrones and challenged the Gurgadhee of Nanak....the MINAS..who also wrote fake banis...wrote Fake History fo Sikhism...falsified sikh history...
    the 22 Fake GURUS who sat in Baba Bakalla..to challenge the Gurgadee of Guru teg Bahadur Ji...
    MASANDS who became CORRUPT and began to exploit the Gurus SIKHS for their personal GAIN....
    MAHANTS who implemented UDASEE and NIRMALA based Brahminised rituals in Gurdwars under their control, who began to MISUSE these Gurdwaras as Personal Property...

    THESE were the THREATS that faced the early SIKHI....and were successfully dealt with.

    The Ram rai..the Mina Threats were REAL when the SRM was Formulated in 1930's. Thus Sikhs were advised to stay away from them. The MAHANT threat was done away with when the SIKHS occupied the Gurdwaras and threw out hindu devis moortees and rituals and implemented the SRM/Singh sabha Lehr in 1920-1940.

    The REAL MODERN DAY THREATS are the:

    1. Naamdharees which outright rejects the SGGS Gurgadee. and has its own
    Satguru
    2. The Radha Soami that hs its own dehdharee Guru as well.
    3. The DERAS of sacha Sauda, Asutosh, Bhaniara saadh, and various BABAS and so
    called Mahapurashs with their own living dehdharee GURUDOMS which challenge the
    SGGS or DISTORT the Gurbani.
    4. The NIRANKARIS...the Virsa Saadhs of Gobind sadan
    5. The Modern day MAHANTS who occupy the Takhats and successfully infiltrated the
    SGPC who ignore Rituals in Gurdwaras and Takhats and instead support such
    practises as condemned in GURBANI.(Blood tilaks, slaughter of goats, artees, talls,
    ritualsied paaths havans, etc
    etc )

    There are No Hukmnamhs beign issued to counter the above mentioned REAL THREATS - and IF issued..are IGNORED by the Powers that be due to POLITIC EXPEDIENCY.

    Instead INDIVIDUAL SIKHS..who swear allegiance to SGGS are being Targetted due to
    POLITICS and NOT welfare fo Sikhi/Gurmatt.:happysingh:
     
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  11. spnadmin

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    Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?

    Bhagat ji

    I am curious why you lump Belief in God, reincarnation, 4 Time periods, or Satyug together to ask your question. Why do ou consider Belief in God, reincarnation, 4 Time periods or Satyug as "principles" when some of them are not principles but concepts.

    My own question is based on something more than semantics or splitting hairs.
     
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  12. spnadmin

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    Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?

    principle |ˈprinsəpəl|
    noun
    1 a fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning : the basic principles of Christianity.
    • (usu. principles) a rule or belief governing one's personal behavior : struggling to be true to their own principles | she resigned over a matter of principle.
    • morally correct behavior and attitudes : a man of principle.
    • a general scientific theorem or law that has numerous special applications across a wide field.
    • a natural law forming the basis for the construction or working of a machine : these machines all operate on the same general principle.

    Is Satyug a principle or a concept? Are the 4 time periods a principle or a concept? ETC.
     
  13. BhagatSingh

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    Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?

    Well, I corrected myself and called them beliefs but I guess they could be principles.
    For example, belief in God and reincarnation are fundamental to Sikhism. That thing about Satyug although not a fundamental truth, would still come under truth, in SGGS.

    A concept is too general.
     
  14. spnadmin

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    Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?

    Is Satyug a principle?
     
  15. Tejwant Singh

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    Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?

    Bhagat ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    In Sikhi there is no belief in Ik Ong Kaar because Ik Ong Kaar IS.

    Reincarnation is not the fundamental belief of Sikhism either although it is acknowledged in Gurbani because the Hindus believe in it. All the Shabads that mention reincarnation also mention that if one follows Guru's teachings then one can get rid of this belief.

    Yugs are used as metaphors because they are in the Vedas and also belong to the Hindu beliefs. They are not in Sikh beliefs either. Sikhi is pragmatic. So, your question seems a bit off the cuff because Sikh means a student as you know it and how can one stop learning?

    Here is something I wrote about yugs sometimes ago:

    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/spiritual-articles/20402-satyug-the-bowl-of-cherries.html#post73870

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  16. Mai Harinder Kaur

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    No one other than myself can make me more or less of a Sikh. No pronouncement of Akal Takht or any other institution can define my relationship with my Guru. Akal Takht can make pronouncements, issue Hukamnamas until all those corrupt old guys are blue in the face; I am still a Sikh.

    They cannot kick me out of the Khalsa, either. If I have broken my Khalsa vows or committed some other serious offense, it is my responsibility to present myself to the local Panj Piyare for discipline. No institution in "India" has any jurisdiction over this. (Jis, correct me if I am wrong, please.)

    This gets back to the notion of "what is essential to being a Sikh?" I started a thread about that "Mere Sikhi" - "Mere" being the English word, not the Punjabi. Unfortunately, there has been only one response. I would really like some more feedback on this subject.



    Akal Takht can and does from time to time "excommunicate" Sikhs who publicly disagree with them or don't show them the respect that they ought to deserve. In my eyes this is a political move to help them retain their power.

    I can think of one "excommunication" that could help the Panth. I refer, of course, to the Butcher of Punjab, KP- Gill, who has violated every Sikh principle that I know. You can see that I of my own volition have excommunicated him by removing the "Singh" from his name. It would certainly clean up the Panth path a bit.

    Bur I'm not a jathedar or any such. I do not issue Hukamnamas and my opinions are just that, opinions.

    Let me make clear, however, that I do respect the institution of Akal Takht; my problem is with the corrupt old men who are making a farce of it.

    I think "excommunication" is meant to strip the receiver of his Sikh citizenship, making him an illegal alien in his own home. It is meant to ban him (does shunning really have a place in Sikhi?). Mostly it is used as a means of quieting dissenters. That is my observation.
     
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  17. arshi

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    Well said Gyani ji. These are the real issues that the Sikh Panth must tackle, including how Punjab is drowning itself under the overflowing river of alcohol and drugs, which you quite aptly refer to as one of the 11 rivers in another thread on this forum.

    All this infighting is causing unlimited damage to Sikhi - our enemies must be watching all this with glee and satisfaction. Sikhi whilst young is not that young and after hundreds of years we are still debating terms and issues which should have been resolved long time ago (I am not referring to the question of excommunication which is a genuione concern). One only has to look at various forums on the internet to see the kind of issues (often frivolous) we waste so much time on: What should we eat? How should we dress up? Are we better Sikhs if we hang our beards loose rather than grooming them neatly with, say hair fixer, net or thathi? Is it wrong for women to pluck hair on their chins. Where does the mool mantar end? Why the Gurus have not used the term 'Waheguru' in SGGS? I could go on.

    Whilst some of these may be important but should we not concentrate on issues which are relatively far more important, like the ones you mentioned in your post? Another major issue Sikhi must tackle is that we are still not free from the clutches of the evil caste system. We often also discriminate against each other on the basis of trivial issues such as mentioned above.

    Kind regards and chardhi kala ji.

    Rajinder Singh 'Arshi'
     
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  18. kds1980

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    Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?

    The questions here is not who should be excommunicated who not.The question is whether is their any concept of excommunication in sikhism?
    well the historical reference clearly tell us that concept is in sikhism.

    The issue that it is misused is different one.There are lot of things in sikhism that are misused
     
  19. BhagatSingh

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    Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?

    So one isn't a belief, its true; the other is not even a belief/principle, and the third is a metaphor.
    Then perhaps you should enlighten me about the beliefs/principles, etc of Sikhism, then we can go on from there? :thumbup:


    PS In your article and in your reply, you didn't present any passages from SGGS and show how its a metaphor in there. (4 yugs)
     
  20. Tejwant Singh

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    Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?

    Bhagat Singh ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    You are intelligent enough to find the answers by yourself. Seek and you shall find. After having done that, even about the Yugs, then please share your findings with us.

    This is what Sikhi is all about. Learn through interaction and I am waiting to do just that from your own efforts.

    Thanks & regards'

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  21. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

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    Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?

    The questions here is not who should be excommunicated who not.The question is whether is their any concept of excommunication in sikhism?
    well the historical reference clearly tell us that concept is in sikhism.

    The issue that it is misused is different one.There are lot of things in sikhism that are misused[/quote]

    The issue is well explained in Gurbani of SGGS.

    We are advised to STAY AWAY/IGNORE..the SAKAT ..meaning an atheist, agnostic, cynic..etc..(one who is going to lead one astray and away from the path of Gurmatt/Akal Purakh/sikhi)...and IF one meets a SANT...a Holy man who is walking this Path of Gurmatt ..in that case we are advised to..Kichh sunneah..kicch kaheayh..Nanak !! Discuss..have a dialogue..talk..listen....

    SO Since the Ram Raiyas..the MINAS..etc were directly competing with GURU SAHIB ( as the Namdharees/Nirankaris/Radha Soamis/Deras/Babas/Saadhs/) are DOING TODAY...and all these come under the definition of SAKAT !! ..and LEAD YOU AWAY FROM SGGS/GURMATT/TRUE PATH.

    GENERAL DYER was bestowed a SIROPA and Robe of Honour at Akal Takhat...in modern times KPGill is being accorded the same treatment (BY NOT CONDEMNING HIM ) Prof GURMUKH SINGH was kicked out of Akal takhat becasue as a LOW CASTE he challenged the PUJAREES position.
    Giani Ditt Singh who is fast becoming aFavourite of DG supporters wrote a CYNICAL PLAY about How his dearest friend and companion Prof Gurmukh Singh was treated by the religious Powers that be !! Prof Gurmukh Singh ji was NOT a RIVAL GURU..he was not starting a New Rival panth...so he is NOT in the same league as the ram Rai...minas..etc etc or the 22 gurus of Bakala.

    THE SGGS is the supreme Akal Takhat. Any action has to be as per SGGS.:happy:
     
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