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Hard Talk What Does It Mean To "Desecrate" SGGS / Gurbani?

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Ishna, Mar 5, 2016.

  1. Ishna

    Ishna
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    So the story of the meth-user who broke into a Gurdwara in Spokane, Washington got some of us wondering. What exactly is "desecration" of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or Gurbani?

    I've heard of people who won't put a newspaper full of Gurmukhi on the floor because the script is sacred. Really?

    What are your thoughts?
     
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  3. ActsOfGod

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    What do you think it is?
     
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  4. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    AOG ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    I am all ears. Unless you share what you think, we will not know about your thoughts regarding the subject.

    Thanks
     
  5. Parma

    Parma United Kingdom
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    My ultimate sovereign oath of allegiance has always and will always be to the Guru Granth Sahib ji. Regardless of wherever that may take me. They can try desecration but in time and with consistency they do understand. That all of our rights are reserved for God. Some institutions would desecrate all honours from a communities history to the breaking of School records to establish it's own opinions or values of others a repulsive and true representation of what an establishments measures can become. Disgraceful. God bless. You have to address the logic of it what did an innocent holy "book" ever do to anyone? Shameful. Sometimes with the limit of human understanding all is forgiven as the Granth Sahib ji is the Guru and as students of words we are all just learning the appreciation of waheguru ji, when will they value that. The Akal purakh they can try there best but they are unable to ever desecrate an invisible force the Guru of no words=energy. May I extend to humanity a peaceful solace and silence. Sorcha sorch na horva!
     
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    #4 Parma, Mar 5, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2016
  6. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    not reading it?
    not acting on it?
     
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  7. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    harry haller ji I won't make it that narrow. I have couple of comments.

    Not reading it? Not many people have access to SGGS. They have gutkas for Nitnem; and we know pretty well that unless you were a visibly practicing Sikh, you sitting in front of SGGS and wanting to read it will be almost universally frowned upon by other SIkhs. Internet and stuff is good but when we make statement swe got to recognize all Sikhs at various stages in their lives where they will no tbe able to read it.

    Not Acting on it?
    Most people, Sikhs included act in ways similar to the wisdom espoused in SGGS. SO the acting part is kind of too general and there is no one who acts 100% per SGGS day in and day out throughout their lives. I may be wrong but that is what I have observed over the decades.

    For me the one important and generally the absolute minimum in terms of disrespect of SGGS is if you don't seek the wisdom and ways espoused in the SGGS. Such a concept provides much clearer boundary for me.

    In terms of physical desecration, I believe the concepts are very easily identifiable.

    Desecration for me is an act knowingly carried out against SGGS physically or in any medium with the intent to hurt the one(s) you know will be so impacted.
    Sat Sri Akal
     
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  8. Ishna

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    On another forum, this conversation transpired:

    User A: "Where were the Gyanis during this? They called the police but priority number 1 from then should have been to protect the Guru. This is horrifying"

    User B: "Put your own life in danger for the Guru who is everywhere and in everything...?"

    User A: "You're mixing Vaheguru and the Guru. While Vaheguru is everywhere and is the ultimate formless being that is within everything that ecists, the Guru is the word which teaches us and instructs us on how to get closer to Vaheguru.

    The word is what is most important in a Gurdwara, the Guru is what makes the Gurdwara. To give my life to protect the message which I believe has the potential to do the most good in this world, that would never be a hard choice for me."​
     
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  9. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    If it was a matter of a person not liking Sikhs to start with and then being under utter influence of a substance, I would try to help himand also call the authorities for safe removal.

    A sakhi comes to mind even though the narrative or the literal I would ask anyone to believe in or agree to the message is worthwhile.

    Here it goes:

    "One of the Guru ji's was seated and the offspring of Guru Nanak Dev ji was not happy about the choice of the Guru that Guru Nanak Dev ji made to take Guruship after him. The offspring; from what I recall when I hear it; it was Sri Chand a younger boy of Guru Nanak Dev ji. The boy was incensed and when Guru Angad ji was sitting he kicked him with his foot in an outrage. The reaction of Guru Angad Dev ji is wherein lies the message. He called the boy over. Have him sit near him and started massaging his foot. He told the boy, I am old and my bones are much hardened. You are young and your foot is softer it must have hurt your foot when it hit my hardened bones. Child perhaps got message for a life time."​

    So where benevolence can prevail, let it be the first choice. There are always other choices if it fails.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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    #8 Ambarsaria, Mar 6, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2016
  10. ActsOfGod

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    How about stepping on the paper that Gurbani is written on?

    What about throwing it in a garbage bin?

    Or ripping the papers, tearing them up.

    What about putting it cow dung? Is that desecration?

    Where do you draw the line? What is 'desecration' to you?

    [AoG]
     
  11. Ishna

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    I think Ambarsaria Ji said it best:

    Desecration for me is an act knowingly carried out against SGGS physically or in any medium with the intent to hurt the one(s) you know will be so impacted.

    The Gurbani, the paper, the ink.. these things aren't inherently any more sacred than an atlas of the world. It's the meaning people attribute to it, that makes it sacred.
     
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  12. ActsOfGod

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    And as far as those folks who don't put gurbani on the floor, you seriously mean to imply that they don't understand or "get" the above statement? You really think they don't know the difference between that an an atlas of the world?
     
  13. Ishna

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    What if it's at atlas written with Gurmukhi script?

    What is the difference? Would you chastise me if I put my gutka on the floor? I have a box of books - the box is on the floor - is that a problem? Is it OK to put books containing Gurmukhi script on the bottom shelf of a bookcase?

    If I put the gutka and other books on a high shelf, then get blind drunk and smoke a pack of cigarettes, or perhaps just sit around a nearby table and gossip about people, is that OK in relation to the aforementioned items?
     
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  14. Parma

    Parma United Kingdom
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    I had a similar debate of a discussion on a similar subject of shrines and temples and pilgrimages. After all the debating I asked where does the one you worship exist? There reply was enough of an answer to realise that even they were figuring that one out. So the response is simple existence intention and motivation or should I say feelings some may call it an impulse of emotional intelligence I say people awaken to what makes sense when all other avenues of thought fail common sense is what must prevail. It's just plain daft why people do daft actions when the effects are not effective on the outcome of what they intend to achieve. You'll always notice that it is never the water that asks to quench you're thirst it's always a thought! Pointless to the extreme. A individual acting in such accordance I would wonder if it is even an action. Like when you scratch your forehead or something. If you learn of Pointless scenario mindfulness. That is your gain and nobody else's loss. Blood out of a stone is a pointless exercise sometimes too is exercise.
     
    #13 Parma, Mar 7, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2016
  15. ActsOfGod

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    Very good. You tell me.
     
  16. Ishna

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    Well, it depends on the person. Some people get offended if you put anything written in Gurmukhi script on the floor.

    Are you upset, bro?
     
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  17. ActsOfGod

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    Upset, no.

    There is a distinction between "anything written in Gurmukhi script" and "Gurbani". I'm guessing you meant "Gurbani", but if not then please clarify.

    Since it depends on the person, why don't you tell me what your answer is?
     
  18. ActsOfGod

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    You seem to be using 'gutka' and 'books containing gurmukhi script' interchangeably. Are they the same to you?
     
  19. ActsOfGod

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    You first
     
  20. Ishna

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    I'm glad you're not upset. :)

    They are certainly not the same to me to you and me, but they are the same to some people.

    A Punjabi language newspaper, printed using Gurmukhi script, describing the current events of the city of Amritsar, for example. Some people get terribly offended if you put that newspaper on the floor, because (for their point of view) it is written in the sacred script of Gurmukhi, and to put it on the floor is to desecrate it.

    I think it's highly likely that the events the Gurmukhi is describing is the true desecration.
     

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