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Were the 5 Pyaare Volunteers? Or Were They Selected by Guru Gobind Singh?

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by seeker3k, Jun 15, 2013.

  1. seeker3k

    seeker3k
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    Don’t get me wrong I am not trying to insult Guru rather my respect for Guru Gobind Singh increased many fold after I getting this info.

    Every one believes that Guru Gobind went up on the stage with naked kirpan and call for one head from the sangat. Every one got scared but one got up and Guru took him behind the tent. Came back with blood on kirpan and asked for 2nd head. He did that 5 times. Each time one person got up and he took every one in the tent. Every one knows they got up on their own from each cast

    It is impossible that from 80,000 people these pyare got up from different cast every time Guru asked for HEAD. Not matter what any one think it can not happen that way. They has to be selected before.

    Every one knows Guru fought 2 battles before he created Khalsa. Bhai Mani Singh fought in those battles. He was commander of Guru’s army. Bhai Mani Singh was very brave man that guru gave him the name “Devan”.

    Bhai Mani Singh was there when all that happened. Why Mani Singh did not get up to give his head? Did he get scared, I don’t think so? Man who fought in front of Guru’s army and gets scared? Bhai Mani Singh was guru’s most trusted man.
    The third reason: Gurus before Gobind Singh talked about that there is no neech cast no one is lower then another. But it was only a talk. This time it was not a just talk he did some thing very profound and practical way to eliminate cast system. Guru said every one will take Singh after his first name. That way no one can tell who is neech and who is not.From the gotra one can know from which cast her belong. Every one has same last name and they eat n drank from one “batta”. There be NO CAST.

    But we did not follow Guru’s hukam and still now use last name. No wonder Sikhism is going down hill. The cast system is still in Sikhism. Some people can deny that there is no cast system but it is there.
     
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  3. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    seekr3k ji

    Why have any concerns? You are asking questions that are based on critical thinking. The story has been repeated many times, and there are also add-ons. For example, that Guru Gobind Singh poured milk into the mouth of one of the pyaare and revived him.

    There are no eye-witness accounts that were written and later independently verified. Accounts have come from either a Muslim source, or from stories written decades after the death of Guru Gobind Singh, based on recollections and family legends.

    I take the spirit of these stories seriously, but do not accept them for their literal truth. Don't worry yourself too much. All religions base a certain amount of belief in legend. It was Guru Nanak who abolished mental slavery to the caste system. We can be certain that Guru Gobind Singh was guided by the same jyote. Stories to prove the point of what he did or did not do are not necessary as we have Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to confirm that there is no high nor low -- all are one.
     
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  4. Inderjeet Kaur

    Inderjeet Kaur
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    The Panj Piyare as shills. Isn't that a corker? I like it better than stories of their heads severed and then reattached.

    I do wonder, though...if they were really hand-picked by Guru Gobind Singh ji, I would expect at least one woman to be among them.
     
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  5. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    Why five? One may wonder. A closer look at Gurmat reveals that the Gurus did a majority of their important work in fives. Five Banis, five kakkars, five khands and five Singhs. The names of the Guru's five Singhs represent the virtues which a Khalsa must imbibe.

    Daya means compassion.

    Dharam means righteousness.

    Mokham means piety.

    Himmat means courage.

    Sahib means Sir in the english sense. Only he is a sahib in the lord's eyes who has mastered the above four virtues.

    Five Singhs however were not an exclusive creation of the Guru alone. They had been prevalent from the time of Guru Nanak Dev Ji !
    Yes, there always seemed to be Five from Guru Nanak dev ji's time-
    (see below which I only came across yesterday!)

    Guru Nanak Dev Ji's panj pyares or five beloved ones were:

    1.) Bhai Mardanna.

    2.) Bhai Bala.

    3.) Bhai Ajita.

    4.) Bhai Lalo.

    5.) Bhai Lehna.

    Guru Angad Dev Ji's pyares were:

    1.) Bhai Budha.

    2.) Bhai Paro Julka.

    3.) Baba Amardass.

    4.) Bhai Paida.

    5.) Bhai Sadharan.


    Guru Amardass Ji's pyares were:

    1.) Bhai Budha.

    2.) Bhai Paro.

    3.) Bhai Malhan.

    4.) Bhai Balu.

    5.) Bhai Jetha.



    Guru Ramdass Ji's pyares were:

    1.) Bhai Budha.

    2.) Bhai Bidhi Chand.

    3.) Bhai Teertha.

    4.) Bhai Dharam.

    5.) Bhai Guria.



    Guru Arjan Dev Ji's pyares were:

    1.) Bhai Bidhi Chand.

    2.) Bhai Gurdass.

    3.) Bhai Pirana.

    4.) Bhai Paida.

    5.) Bhai Langa.


    Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji's pyares were:

    1.) Bhai Bidhi Chand.

    2.) Bhai Gurdass.

    3.) Bhai Behlo.

    4.) Bhai Kalyana.

    5.) Bhai Bhallan.

    Guru Har Rai Ji's pyares were:

    1.) Bhai Suthra.

    2.) Bhai Feru.

    3.) Bhai Dargah.

    4.) Bhai Bhana.

    5.) Bhai Bhagta.


    Guru Harkrishan Ji's pyares were:

    1.) Bhai Dargah.

    2.) Bhai Gurbaksh.

    3.) Bhai Gurditta.

    4.) Bhai Sant Ram.

    5.) Bhai Gurdas.


    Guru Teghbahadur Ji's pyares were:

    1.) Bhai Gurditta.

    2.) Bhai Dyala.

    3.) Bhai Uda.

    4.) Bhai Jaita.

    5.) Bhai Mati Dass.

    All these Singhs were initiated into Sikhi by the tradition of Charan-Pahul amrit which was changed by Guru Gobind Singh Ji to Khande-Bate-Da-amrit.
     
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  6. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Luckysingh ji

    Bhai Gurdas never mentions Bhai Bala, giving rise to the suspicion that he may have never existed. That his janamsakhi may have been inventions of the Hindali tradition. This is the same tradition that worked very historically to undermine the Aad Granth by casting suspicion on the authenticity of bani in the possession of Guru Arjan Dev.

    Bhai Gurdas mentions associates of the Gurus throughout his varaan, but never Bhai Bala. I would check the list through Guru Arjan Dev, to see if these names match up. By the time of Guru Hargobind, Bhai Gurdas was quite old and ill, so he may not be of help by the time of the 6th Guru.

    This may be your reference http://tisarpanth.blogspot.com/2012/12/manifestation-of-khalsa-part-6.html It appears to be a Nihang site of some sort. If so, let's keep in mind that the perspective of the site may swing in the direction of information that serves the message of a particular sect within Sikhism.
     
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    #5 spnadmin, Jun 16, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2013
  7. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    I am getting hooked on mischievous blog spots.

    On the same site there is a section regarding Sarbloh Granth .... in addition to being "partisan" it is also difficult to source and to verify

    Along with Guru Granth Sahib and Dasam Granth the Khalsa has one more Granth,
    Sarbloh Granth or the all iron* Granth. Sarbloh is a fitting name for the Granth as this age, which we live in today, is known as "Kal-yug" (the dark age) and also the Sarbloh age. Especially due to its heavy reliance on metals. The history of the Granth is spaced over a period ranging from "Sat-yug" (age of truth) to our present age. The creation of the Granth began in Sat-yug at Nanded where Hazoor Sahib is located today.

    :eek:

    http://tisarpanth.blogspot.com/2012/12/sri-sarbloh-granth.html

    The site is giving equal status to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the so-called Dasam Granth. It also ignores the documented facts of history that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji begins with the Aad Granth under the compliation of 5th Nanak Guru Arjan Dev.

    :eek: Or maybe the author is referring to Sarbloh Granth being composed in the Sat-yug. It has been said elsewhere that no one really knows the beginnings of Sarbloh Granth, though we do know the authorship of the Aad Granth very well.


    "Oral tradition states that Sanyasi Brahma-Anand in Sat-yug lived at Nanded and compiled the Granth after the events which he saw during his Bhagti." Who has the date for the beginning of Satyug?
     
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    #6 spnadmin, Jun 16, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2013
  8. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Lucky Singh ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Can you please elaborate what you mean by your post in a lay man's terms, so I can understand it?

    It seems to me that that lots of things you have said from some site are all made up in a Hindutva manner and are insulting to our 10th master who gave his father, his sons and himself so that we can be here today.

    It would be nothing but an egocentric way to play our 10th Guru in my opinion,the way some are trying to do.

    What tangled webs are you trying to untangle?

    If our 10th Guru wanted to tell us all then he would have, but he did not. He did not even add his own poetry into the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji but only his dad's.

    Shame on us as Sikhs who try to second guess him, his deeds and his thoughts.

    It is about time we respected his decisions with gratitude for the sake of Sikhi.

    Tejwant Singh
     
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    #7 Tejwant Singh, Jun 16, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2013
  9. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    My apologies for the above !
    You are absolutely correct it is info I got yesterday from that Blog-
    http://tisarpanth.blogspot.com/2012/...oh-granth.html

    I was surprised that this correlation was there but I haven't honestly had time to delve deeply into it.

    I apologise as this info is not presented from my view in any way but simply something I came across that made me think ''wow!"
    I promise to all that I shall try and post authentic references in the future.
    Maybe I should have referenced the source for the above to clarify it wasn't me !!:peacesign:
     
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  10. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Luckysingh ji

    Thanks for your reply. It makes for a better forum when we can think out loud about our sources. Time-consuming but worth it in the end. :winkingkaur::winkingkaur:
     
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  11. Tejwant Singh

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    Lucky Singh ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    This is the reason we call ourselves Sikhs. We live to learn. Hence, no harm, no foul.

    But, one other thing perturbed me a bit from your post that is totally against our Gurmat principles, which is:

    This legend of Charan Pahul has nothing to do with Sikhi. Just for the sake of this conversation, let's assume that Guru Nanak started Charan Pahul to convert people into Sikhi. According to this fairy tale, Guru Nanak would dip his toe in some water to "sanctify" it and then make people drink it.

    Do you honestly think this is a Sikhi principle of equality or is it some kind of thing that a Derawala baba would do to make fool of his chelas?

    What happened to those who refused to take it or did not believe in it? Were they banished from being Sikhs- students, learners, seekers?

    Guru Nanak's Amrit was his ideas of equality that he put forward to peoples of all hues, creeds and faith. His Amrit overflowed with love for all, not some water "sanctified" by his toe. Did he wash it before dipping it as he travelled a lot in his life? Wouldn't it have been better, hygienically speaking, if he had dipped his index finger instead?

    If Charan Pahul were true, then it would be degrading to all humankind from his own point of view that he gave us through Gurbani. It would be nothing but a bowl of "Meism" because conversion is not what the Sikhi maketh.

    Don't you think so?

    Thanks for your candor.

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  12. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    Totally agree !!
    Thank you for highlighting the significance of what it really means.
    It makes me realize how easy it can be to take a step into a danger zone away from the true path.
     
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  13. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    BABA Budha ji CAME INTO GURU NANAK JIS SANGAT AT AGE 5... and remained till the SIXTH GURU...but he never attained "Gurgadee"...??? So shall we as Seeker ji attempted to do in the Original starter paras of THIS Thread..begin SPECULATING on WHY ?? and WHY NOT ?

    There are so many things we can speculate on ???? BUT we SHOULD NOT because thats like trying to LOSE WEIGHT by doing MENTAL CALISTHENICS...it simply doesnt work that way !!! One can do Mental Calisthenics till the cow falls down from the MOON...not an iota of a gram weight loss will occur.
    For example the first three Gurus had 2 sons...the Fourth Guru had 3 sons..fifth Guru had ONLY ONE..Sixth Guru had the MOST children of all the Gurus...??? Guur Har Rai had 2 sons..one succeeded and the other didnt..guru teg abahdur had ONLY ONE SON and he succeeded him..why or why NOT ?? Guru Gobind Singh had four sons..yet none succeeded to the Gurgadee ??? why...why not ?? ALL this is sheer IDLE THINKING and waste of time...trying to second guess..splitting HAIRS where there are NONE !! or looking for Split ended Hairs on the bald head of a Buddhist MONK ??

    Its a sad case that we have LOST most of our HISTORY...one source puts ALL the FIVE Pyaras as born in PUNJAB...another source puts them all over the place...which is which..we dont know...BUT what we do KNOW" via circumstantial evidence" is that the FIVE were SIKHS long before they became SINGHS !! Surely they already had the KESH because the PAHUL NEEDS to be put in the KESH !! Also they KNEW the BANIS by heart..i ma sure there were no gutkas used because the ceremony pre-requisite is one hand on Bata, the other on Khanda..and full concentration..so trying to balance a gutka is OUT. Seconldy when GUru gobind Singh requested the Pahul form the FIVE it had to be prepared AGAIN...and THEY read the BANIS as the PNJ DO today..no way was the old Pahul prepared by the GURU REUSED becasue thats not done.


    The GURU asked for FIVE..and STOPPED. Even IF another 10000 had wanted to offer their heads......they couldnt because the TIME WAS PAST. The GURU stopped at FIVE. PERIOD. why ?/ why not ?/ idle time wasting questions. Why Bhai mani singh didnt stand up ?? Why Budha ji did not PASS the tests Bhai lehnna ji..???? why Bhai Gurdass ji didnt mention Guru Arjun jis shaheedeee in his Vaars ?? Why Guru Gobind Singh maintained good relations with Mughal Emperor Bahadur Shah ?? why Jehangir released Guru hargobind Ji after murdering his father ?? was he a kind ruler..and if he was kind then why murder guru arjun Ji..:whatzpointsing:...etc etc etc..thousand and one questions..
    Apologies for being a bit blunt..no offense intended.
     
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  14. findingmyway

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    I think we get too hung up on stories. The stories even on this site attract more attention than Bani. How many people came into debates declaring they have not read the SGGS but they are experts on so many aspects of Gurmat! The stories are there merely to demonstrate a point. Whether they are fact, fiction or half and half is irrelevant. The important thing is to test the moral against the principles given to us in SGGS. If yes, learn from it and move on, if no, forget and move on.

    What are the true lessons of Vaisakhi 1699? The number is irrelevant - we know this as Gurbani does not accord a special meaning to any number, colour, day of the week etc. The important details are
    1) the need for commitment, internal and external
    2) equality
    3) the names given to the Panj represent the 5 qualities we must keep in mind and try and attain
    4) a reminder than Sikhi is not just a spiritual journey like the sages and Bhatts undertook, but is also community living pledging devotion to democracy and a just society
    5) A reminder that Sikhi is not about revenge but truthful living

    Please feel free to add to the list......
     
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  15. soormejawani84

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    How is it a muslim source (the spy of aurangzeb) when he took amrit.

    What about all the gurudawaras like panja sahib, etc.

    Guru Gobind Singh Ji Killed them put different heads back on and brought them back to life.
     
  16. seeker3k

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    SSA

    Gyani ji said which is which, what do be believe.
    Why waste time in splitting hair. People use logic to know what is right. All the khatha karn wale telling the lies to glorify the Gurus.
    I use to say use logic use logic. But one can only use logic according to what he knows. Things he don’t know how can he use logic?

    Every thing is waist time. That means we should not discuss any thing? Only one man’s logic is right other are wrong? Earth was spinning around it self and around sun. Now it is clear but few hundred years ago it was stupid idea.

    All I try to show that Guru did this practical way to eliminate cast system. Looks to me still people here who just can not accept society with out cast. They will fight tooth and nail to keep cast system going
     
  17. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Seeker3 Ji,

    No one..Not even the GURU can "eliminate" Caste by simply standing up in a crowd of 80,000 and SAYING..YOU, YOU, YOU THERE, YOU AT THE BACK.. YOU IN RED TURBAN.....COME TO THE FRONT !!! OK NOW YOU FIVE..all belonging to different Castes..are NOW ONE CASTE !!

    God fearing MEN like Bhagat Kabir Ji Bhagat ravidass Ji Bhagat namdev Ji SOUNDED the HORN....and it took CENTURIES...from Guru Nanak Ji 1469- 1708..200++ years in real time...to attack and demolish this caste wall..it STILL STANDS INTACT. GURU NANAK Ji stood in a Crowd of MILLION at Hardwwar KUMBH...how many did HE IMPRESS to STOP throwing water to the SUN ?? Just go to KUMBH TODAY and count the MILLIONS still doing their thing...

    Guru Gobind Singh ji didnt SELECT..they were volunteers..JUST as THOSE WHO GO to the PANJ TODAY still are. NO one "SELECTED" ME..i went at age 60..after a LIFE TIME of Gurmatt..with my own DAD being one of the Best long term PYARAS in Malaysia who performed the ceremony on a few HUNDRED during his life time...BUT not on ME...I WENT MYSELF when he was long Gone (20++ years after) DOB 1949- 2005 Gurmatt Life...Khandeh dee pahul in 2005 !! dad passed away in 1982...long before 2005 !! dad was panj Pyara from 1935 at Akal takhat. Damdama sahib....and in HongKong, Manila..and Malaysia ...till 1982 !!

    What I do BELIEVE..is the PANJ were well prepared..they all came form areas Visited by Guru nanak ji..by Guru teg bahadur Ji..and they were NOT "Rookies" but already deep into GURMATT just like ME...long before they VOLUNTEERED. My children are working adults..not yet pahul...but Gurmatt rehnni..each will make their own choices when and IF they decide..thats what VOLUNTEER means doesnt it...so i beleive..

    Khandeh dee Pahul is a 100% VOLUNTARY choice..of sound mind..adult..etc are the CONDITIONS...no force..no compulsion a nd certainly NO SELECTION/ELECTION !!:soccersingh:


    Regards

    JS
     
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  18. seeker3k

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    Regards

    SSA

    Please read what I wrote. I said Gobind Singh said take Singh after your name no gotra. Eat and drink from on pot. Dress same that way no one can tell who is lower or higher class. That is why he got from different cast. You give me good logic why each one got up from different cast?
    You just dont like top read just jump the gun because it came from me.

    admin note:

    Gyani ji did give reasons and examples from personal experience. Therefore I had to delete your comment about malice. Good faith efforts are being made by Gyani to reply to you.

    The thread cannot drown in specific points of dissatisfaction with what any other member posts. Please get your main issues out there. Disagree about issues not details Any two people are going to differ on the details. Let's not get hung up on that because most readers are going to get fed up with it the longer it goes on.

    Think about how this is another time you have been very rude. I don't think you are being rude to him personally. Gyani ji just happens to have drawn the number of the bakery and it is his turn in line. So please dignify yourself by re-reading what you have written before you hit the Submit Reply button, so you can delete needless rude remarks. No learning comes from that.
     
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    #17 seeker3k, Jul 26, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 26, 2013
  19. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    different heads? what did do for an encore?
     
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  20. Inderjeet Kaur

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    I think for an encore he asked the entire congregated sangat to return to the entrance and check in their brains before entering.

    You know, the single thing that has always attracted me to Sikhi above all other religions is that it made no demands that I believe really ridiculous things that I know cannot possibly be true. This thread is beginning to make me wonder if maybe I have been mistaken all these years.
     
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  21. aristotle

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    Findingmyway Ji,
    Beautifully put.
    Vaisakhi 1699 was a happening far more significant than had ever happened in the Sikh history. Let's not let this get drowned in the jargon of storytelling. History is important but more important are the lessons it gives us.
     
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