Gurus Was Guru Nanak God?

[sahilmakkar1983]

Gurufateh navimaan paaji

Please refer to gurubani .. about ur saying

I m putting some lines that are saying ... GURU NANAK DEV JI was himself carnation of GOD only..

Page 1408--------------------------------------------

ਜੋਤਿ ਰੂਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਆਪਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਹਾਯਉ ॥
जोति रूपि हरि आपि गुरू नानकु कहायउ ॥
jot roop har aap guroo naanak kahaa-ya-o.
The Embodiment of Light, the Lord Himself is called Guru Nanak.

Page 1336-----------------------------------------------

ਤੁਮਰੇ ਜਨ ਤੁਮ ਹੀ ਤੇ ਜਾਨੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜਾਨਿਓ ਜਨ ਤੇ ਮੁਖਫਾ ॥
तुमरे जन तुम ही ते जाने प्रभ जानिओ जन ते मुखफा ॥
tumray jan tum hee tay jaanay parabh jaani-o jan tay mukhfaa.
Your humble servants are known only through You, God; knowing You, they becomes supreme.

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਆਪੁ ਧਰਿਓ ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਮਹਿ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਇਕਫਾ ॥੪॥੫॥
हरि हरि आपु धरिओ हरि जन महि जन नानकु हरि प्रभु इकफा ॥४॥५॥
har har aap Dhari-o har jan meh jan naanak har parabh ikfaa. ||4||5||
The Lord, Har, Har, has enshrined Himself within His humble servant. O Nanak, the Lord God and His servant are one and the same. ||4||5||

BUt We can know gurunanak dev ji only .. when we come to know about the GOD.. do we know what is GOD..
if we say RAM IS GOD, KRISHAN IS GOD, JESUS CHRIST IS GOD, GURU NANAK DEV JI WAS GOD.. THEN QUESTION IS ... WHAT IS GOD...
ALL WERE GOD,, ARE GOD.. BUT WHAT IS GOD..

bhul chuk maaf.. par gurubani te ehio kehndi he
so when u will come to know.. what is god.. then u will never say that guru nanak dev ji was not god

Long story short, no he wasn't god

 

[sahilmakkar1983]

PAGE NO 140 also says
that GURUNANAK DEV JI WAS GOD HIMSELF

ਜੋਤਿ ਰੂਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਆਪਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਹਾਯਉ ॥
जोति रूपि हरि आपि गुरू नानकु कहायउ ॥
jot roop har aap guroo naanak kahaa-ya-o.
The Embodiment of Light, the Lord Himself is called Guru Nanak.

gurunanak dev ji was GOD .. that we know or we just believe.. do we have full faith in that...
YES .. he was incarnation of GOD himself.. and that can be known only if we know GOD..

RAM WAS GOD, KRISHAN WAS GOD.. GURUNANAK DEV JI WAS GOD...
BUT WHAT IS GOD.. THAT WE NEED TO KNOW..
OUR ULTIMATE GOAL OF LIFE IS TO KNOW GOD ONLY.. TO MERGE IN GOD..
AND KNOWING OF GOD STARTS AFTER MEETING HIM.. AFTER SEEING HIM

GURUFATEH

Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Arjan Dev Ji De Bachan in Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib de page# 864


gurU gurU guru kir mn mor ]
gurU ibnw mY nwhI hor ]
gur kI tyk rhhu idnu rwiq ]
jw kI koie n mytY dwiq ]1]
guru prmysru eyko jwxu ]
jo iqsu BwvY so prvwxu ]1] rhwau ]
gur crxI jw kw mnu lwgY ]
dUKu drdu BRmu qw kw BwgY ]
gur kI syvw pwey mwnu ]
gur aUpir sdw kurbwnu ]2]
gur kw drsnu dyiK inhwl ]
gur ky syvk kI pUrn Gwl ]
gur ky syvk kau duKu n ibAwpY ]
gur kw syvku dh idis jwpY ]3]
gur kI mihmw kQnu n jwie ]
pwrbRhmu guru rihAw smwie ]
khu nwnk jw ky pUry Bwg ]
gur crxI qw kw mnu lwg ]4]​

 

[Sikh Namdhari]

Bhats, in their Vaars, edorsed by Guru Arjun Devji in the Aadh Sri Guru Granth Sahib thus:

Satyug thei manio chhalio Bal Bavan Bhaio,
Threithei thei manio Ram Raghuvans kahaio
Dvapur Krisan Muraar, Kans kirtharath leeo
Ug{censored}in ko Raj abhei Bhagatah jan dheeo
Kalyug parmaan, Nanak Gur, Angand, Amar kahaio
Sri Guru Raj, abichal atal, Aadh Purakh phermaio.

How do you people translate this Vaar? Literally, or does this have some ulterior hidden meaning? Was Guru Arjun Devji wrong in His understanding of the Form of Guru or are we misunderstanding Him?

 

[simpy]

Respected Sikh NaamDhari Ji,

It seems like you are limiting a Guru to a physical body only, all the work that we do to become sachyara, is done through mind, no physical effort helps there.

CAN A PHYSICAL BODY ENTER INTO A MIND???? It is GURU's word that goes within us and transform us inside out.

A TRUE GURU CANNOT BE LIMITED TO A FORM ONLY.

GURU MERE SANG SADAA HAI NAALAY



forgive me please

 

[Sikh Namdhari]

Bhen Surinder Kaurji

With all due respect, you are merely repeating the words I hear all the time from champions of the Shabad Guru fraternity. I have quoted a Shabad from the Gurbani, which this school of thought merely ignores, just as you have. Of course a physical body cannot enter into the mind. But it takes a PERSON to be enlightened, who then enlightens others. Soul or Jyot are one and the same. It exists only in God's creatures. Gurbani tells us if we desire to meet with our Lord, then we need to take the guidance of one whose Soul is attached to the Lord as One. How to distinguish such a Mahapursh is also described in the Gurbani.

If we just read Gurbani and try to decipher it with our own 'Budh' we run the risk of imposing 'Manmath' in our understanding. 'Gurmath' is not that which is taught by institutions. It is 'math' which is taught by a Human whose Soul has merged with the Akaal and in whose Shabad there is the power to take us to salvation.

Reading of any Scriptures alone will not get us there.

Kabirji says in Raag Dhanasari:
Kia pariae, kia guniae, kia Ved Purana sunyae, ( Ved and Purans were the Gurbani of the time)
Parae sunae kia hoi, jou Sahaj na milio soi,
Andhiarae deepak chahiyae, ik bast agochar lahiyae...

Kabirji was talking about a living Guru, not a hypothetical Shabad.
The 'Bast' He is talking about is the 'Naam' or 'Gurshabad' which can only be given by a Satgur whose Soul has merged.

 

[simpy]

Bhen Surinder Kaurji

With all due respect, you are merely repeating the words I hear all the time from champions of the Shabad Guru fraternity. I have quoted a Shabad from the Gurbani, which this school of thought merely ignores. Of course a physical body cannot enter into the mind. But it takes a PERSON to be enlightened, who then enlightens others. Soul or Jyot are one and the same. It exists only in God's creatures. Gurbani tells us if we desire to meet with our Lord, then we need to take the guidance of one whose Soul is attached to the Lord as One. How to distinguish such a Mahapursh is also described in the Gurbani.

If we just read Gurbani and try to decipher it with our own 'Budh' we run the risk of imposing 'Manmath' in our understanding. 'Gurmath' is not that which is taught by institutions. It is 'math' which is taught by a Human whose Soul has merged with the Akaal and in whose Shabad there is the power to take us to salvation.

Reading of any Scriptures alone will not get us there.

Kabirji says in Raag Dhanasari:
Kia pariae, kia guniae, kia Ved Purana sunyae, ( Ved and Purans were the Gurbani of the time)
Parae sunae kia hoi, jou Sahaj na milio soi,
Andhiarae deepak chahiyae, ik bast agochar lahiyae...

Kabirji was talking about a living Guru, not a hypothetical Shabad.
The 'Bast' He is talking about is the 'Naam' or 'Gurshabad' which can only be given by a Satgur whose Soul has merged.

Respected Saadh Sangat Ji,



endlessly thanks to you Sikh naamdhari Ji,

We have great examples of Brahmgyanis ,very well knowns and not publicaly knowns, who got enlightened through Sikh way of Prema Bhagti.

Dhan Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Ji is 'LIVING JOTE'. You cannot see it, it is your problem, but True Sikhs see it, feel it and gets enlightened through it. You need mind's eye to see that.

Others can feel bad, nobody can do anything about it.

And We are blessed with not only one Saintly Soul but ALL. We are merged with ONE SUKSHAM DEHI THAT HAS SO MANY OTHER SUKSHAM DEHIS WITHIN-IT IS UNLIMITED BLESSING Ji.

And your example- Dhan Dhan Bhagat Kabir Ji's Bani

it tells that only by reading nothing happens, you have to practice it truthfully and meet with your HIGHER SELF-Sehaj Avastha.

Sahaj na milio soi- does not mean meating a Saint in physical form only

Andhiaarey Deepak/ Bast- Guru Da Gyaan-Knowledge, that wipes away the darkness. The bharam/duality is wiped off with Guru's gyaan.

and the whole Shabad goes this way sir/madam,

ikAw pVIAY ikAw gunIAY ]
ikAw byd purwnW sunIAY ]
pVy suny ikAw hoeI ]
jau shj n imilE soeI ]1]
hir kw nwmu n jpis gvwrw ]
ikAw socih bwrM bwrw ]1] rhwau ]
AMiDAwry dIpku chIAY ]
iek bsqu Agocr lhIAY ]
bsqu Agocr pweI ]
Git dIpku rihAw smweI ]2]
kih kbIr Ab jwinAw ]
jb jwinAw qau mnu mwinAw ]
mn mwny logu n pqIjY ]
n pqIjY qau ikAw kIjY ]



What use is it to read, and what use is it to study?

What use is it to listen to the Vedas and the Puraanas?

What use is reading and listening,

if celestial peace is not attained?

The fool does not chant the Name of the Lord.

So what does he think of, over and over again?

In the darkness, we need a lamp

to find the incomprehensible thing.

I have found this incomprehensible thing;

my mind is illuminated and enlightened.

Says Kabeer, now I know Him;

since I know Him, my mind is pleased and appeased.

My mind is pleased and appeased, and yet, people do not believe it.



it means-
SO DO NOT DO MECHANICAL READING-GET THE KNOWLEDGE FROM THE WORDS YOU ARE READING
AND THAT IS-NAAM SIMRAN

isimRiq byd purwx pukwrin poQIAw ]
nwm ibnw siB kUVu gwl@I hoCIAw ]


i do not see any line in that whole verse that says he had to meet sombody in physical form, it talks about the gyaan/knowledge, and it tells that knowledge alone is nothing, you have to live that knowledge. And it talks about Naam Simran.

And even if you say that He got it from another Saint-IT IS KNOWLEDGE and BLESSINGS, nothing else. And we Sikhs get this Prasaad from Dhan Dhan Siri GUru Granth Sahib Ji.

And a True Sikh lives the knowledge and does Naam Simran and Respect Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Truthfully.


i must repeat Dhan Dhan Bhagat Kabir Ji's words from the same verse:

mn mwny logu n pqIjY ]
n pqIjY qau ikAw kIjY ]








forgive me please

 

[drkhalsa]

Dear Naamdhari Brother ji

I welcome you on this forum once again .

As far as I understand with my very small intelect that you are firm believer of Naamdhari sikh tradition
and as apparent from your p=ost your devotion to your satguru and their way of teaching and I can truly see that it is feeling of Bliss to be in such position where you know where you are going andfeel that it is right path

But I have request with folded hands that dont dilute your feeling of bliss by being crtical of other peoples way of spirtuality which you have very peasantly named Shabad Guru Champion .= I respect your satguru ji and his abilities to enlighten you and may be many more

But just dont undermine other so called champ=ions who might also being felling equally at bliss with grace of Akal Purakh who in itself is not limited by any rules of present and even past.=

If still you feel like enlightening others with your way of spirtuality we can start one exclusive thread to disscuss as this in between being crtical to basic beliefs of somebody in all these different posts now and then on forum may prove contraproductive and in the pocess may hurt many here .= So if you like we can start a thread and every body can give there inputs there .

My p=ersonal belief is that no matter how different path we take on sp=irtual journey we can always share the good things we know .=

I hope this message will take this disscusion to more contructive direction

Fogive this neech for any mistake


jatinder Singh

 

[simpy]

Respected Saadh Sangat Ji and respected Sikh Naamdhari ji,

i agree with Respected drkhalsa ji.



forgive me please

 

[Sikh Namdhari]

Bhenji, 'Bast' and 'Naam' are one and the same. I must disagree with your definition of 'Naam', because it does not tally with the Gurbani's definition of Naam - Your analysis of 'get knowledge from the words you are reading and that is - Naam Simeran' is so contradictory to the Gurbani.

'Naam' is the Gurmanthr that a Guru gives to His Sikh. Every Guru prior to Guru Nanak Devji had His own Gurmanthr. Ram, Hari, Om, Govind are a few examples.
Bhai Gurdassji tells us in detail how Guru Nanak Devji created the 'Wahiguru' Gurmanthr over 40 Yugs and then imparted it to us in this Kalyug age. The Bhats under instruction from Guru Arjun Devji are the only ones who reveal it openly in the Gurbani and tell us, so that there is NO DOUBT AS TO WHAT IS GURMANTHR. (Because it was always repeated in the ears by the Gurus to those who chose to become their Sikhs). HOWEVER, NOWHERE HAVE ANY OF THE GURUJI'S THEMSELVES MENTIONED 'WAHIGURU' in the Gurbani. THEY ONLY WHISPERED IT IN THE EARS OF THOSE WHOM THEY INITIATED. I won't try to quote the Shabad which states this because I don't remember the Shabad in it's entirety.

Bhenji, you must forgive me for not quoting each verse of Gurbani to you, as you do. Because I am sitting at work, I do not have easy access to any Pothi Sahib to readily quote from. Any quotes I have given are from memory and I beg forgiveness if I make any mistakes, which I as Human am bound to err. I am sure you will are able to look up the references I give.

 

[simpy]

Bhenji, 'Bast' and 'Naam' are one and the same. I must disagree with your definition of 'Naam', because it does not tally with the Gurbani's definition of Naam - Your analysis of 'get knowledge from the words you are reading and that is - Naam Simeran' is so contradictory to the Gurbani.

'Naam' is the Gurmanthr that a Guru gives to His Sikh. Every Guru prior to Guru Nanak Devji had His own Gurmanthr. Ram, Hari, Om, Govind are a few examples.
Bhai Gurdassji tells us in detail how Guru Nanak Devji created the 'Wahiguru' Gurmanthr over 40 Yugs and then imparted it to us in this Kalyug age. The Bhats under instruction from Guru Arjun Devji are the only ones who reveal it openly in the Gurbani and tell us, so that there is NO DOUBT AS TO WHAT IS GURMANTHR. (Because it was always repeated in the ears by the Gurus to those who chose to become their Sikhs). HOWEVER, NOWHERE HAVE ANY OF THE GURUJI'S THEMSELVES MENTIONED 'WAHIGURU' in the Gurbani. THEY ONLY WHISPERED IT IN THE EARS OF THOSE WHOM THEY INITIATED. I won't try to quote the Shabad which states this because I don't remember the Shabad in it's entirety.

Bhenji, you must forgive me for not quoting each verse of Gurbani to you, as you do. Because I am sitting at work, I do not have easy access to any Pothi Sahib to readily quote from. Any quotes I have given are from memory and I beg forgiveness if I make any mistakes, which I as Human am bound to err. I am sure you will are able to look up the references I give.

Respected Veer Sikh NaamDhari Ji,

a humble request has been made to you earlier- please follow that. i humbly request you again with folded hands.

and it does not mean that you are sitting in the office so you have a right to state others's Respected Guru's bani whichever way you like to. PLEASE STOP DISRESPECTING GURBANI, GURU, SIKH FAITH.....


forgive me please

 

[Sikh Namdhari]

Dear DrKhalsaji and Sadh Sangatji,

I am truly sorry and ask that you forgive me if my words have offended anybody. I take your point very seriously, as in my haste to post I have used words which I should not have used. I also agree with your view that each one of us has our own paths to spirituality. However, the subject of debate was whether Guru Nanak Devji was Sargun form of God as described within Gurbani and clarified in Bhai Gurdasses Vaars.

Again, I beg your collective forgiveness.

 

[Sikh Namdhari]

Have I misunderstood you? Are you asking me not to post my views at all?

 

[drkhalsa]

Dear Naam Dhari ji

Have I misunderstood you? Are you asking me not to post my views at all?

No I never meant that .=

I am just hoping that while disscusing various topics this critical accusation that the way of shabad guru or namdhari Tradition as totally worng should not be made
time and again
Instead if you want to disscus about this topic that is whether Sabad Guru / Nammdhari way is the correct/better way then we can start new top=ic regarding it
But I still want your contributions to other post as I already have learned many new things with grace of akal P+urakh from posts you have written so i want to learn more so p=lease keep contributing as before

I hope this clears the issue

Jatinder Singh

 

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all!

NAnak Ji called Him insect (keeray), fish (meen), rain bird (chAtrik), slave (daas) of Hari, false (jhoothay) in eyes of all, not good (na ham changay), swan (hans), offender (apraaDhee), foolish (ham moorakh), stone (pAthar), idiot (mugaDh), without virtue (nirgunee), without honor (nimAnaa), iron (loh), child (bArak), sleeping (ham sotay), beggar (bhikhAree), illitrate (parhai nahee ham), dust (Dhoor), mean (neech), meek (deen), utensil of flesh (mAsai kay bhANday), sinner (pApee), dog (dog) and many more.

May I ask if some have found God in all these while realizing NAnak God?


Balbir Singh

 

[simpy]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all!

NAnak Ji called Him insect (keeray), fish (meen), rain bird (chAtrik), slave (daas) of Hari, false (jhoothay) in eyes of all, not good (na ham changay), swan (hans), offender (apraaDhee), foolish (ham moorakh), stone (pAthar), idiot (mugaDh), without virtue (nirgunee), without honor (nimAnaa), iron (loh), child (bArak), sleeping (ham sotay), beggar (bhikhAree), illitrate (parhai nahee ham), dust (Dhoor), mean (neech), meek (deen), utensil of flesh (mAsai kay bhANday), sinner (pApee), dog (dog) and many more.

May I ask if some have found God in all these while realizing NAnak God?


Balbir Singh

Very Respected Balbir Singh Ji,


endless thanks to you for being with us

God is All and All is God.

Jo Kichch Deesay Tera Roop.

You yourself is no dofferent, i see God, Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Naanak Dev Sache Paatshah, Waheguru, Dhan Dhan Guru Granth Sahib (whatever you want to name it) even in your words and through your words.

eh viss sansaar tum dekhde eh har ka roop hai har roop nadri ayeeaa.

eh Maya hai Pram Pita Parmeshwar di.

Guru/God teaches us all the time through it.




forgive me please

 

[spnadmin]

To drkalsa ji,

Your efforts to keep this very important discussion orderly are much appreciated. There are many people who were not born into the Sikh faith, and many others who are reading the posts as visitors (perhaps hundreds), who might be having some difficulty understanding the many layers that are present in this
conversation.

I for one am feeling something of an idiot :{- because throughout it appeared that a very complex philosophical analysis of scripture was taking place. As I lacked the necessary knowledge of the Guru this was understandable.

There is another layer that I am only now discovering and wondered about. The Namdhari interpretation and the Shabd guru understanding are historically different, and both are Sikh perspectives. After spending time on google, I was able to clear this up for myself.

Had you not pulled the conversation together at several times, this would have escaped me. It is the kind of thing that someone who was not born a Sikh would not know, and would have to "bump into it" so to speak. We are gaining more knowledge, and it is knowledge that makes a difference in understanding who is saying what in the thread.

In the end, where anyone ends up depends perhaps on the very first contacts he/she made with Sikhism. This is good.

 

[badmash]

Your points are very appropriate, aad0002.

I must add I have always felt it unfortunate that Sikhism did not have a true, erudite, worldly priestly classs. The absence of such has allowed anyone to stand up and claim an interpretation of the religion in a way they see fit. This has dramatic impacts upon the religion. Namely --- confusion regarding scripture, endless debates on issues better left to intellectuals while more earthly, pressing problems remain, and true, non selfish/greedless GUIDANCE for the average Sikh Joe. Not leastly, I think many, many young sikhs are turned off from a profession as a Granthi/"priest" due to its historically negative place in the outlook of punjabi society, and because so many of them are obviously not in the job for the right reasons or have obvious defecits of education and knowledge. Run on sentences here, I know, but the idea gets through.

 

[spnadmin]

Most respected Badmash,

It was good to hear your impressions. But then I must share that I left the Roman Catholic faith because of its priestly caste. And, although the Roman Church ordains priests to speak with authority about scripture, even then their opinions are all over the place, and much of it is nonsense, leaving the average person confused and often feeling they are victims of priestly power and hypocracy.

What attracted me to the Sikh path? The duty of each individual to understand Sikh philosophy, to find a righteous path, and to discover the meaning of the texts the Gurus left behind.

Today's discussion led me to discover the Namdhari, whose historical and spiritual contributions are immense. Sikhs may disagree on many issues including the nature of God and the proper role of Nam Simram in spiritual development, but the abolishment of female infanticide, the dowry, and caste distinctions, etc. define the Sikh path in part because of the efforts of Namdhari when Guru Gobind ji left this earth.

And the discussion led me to the discovery that I may be doing too much posting in the forum and not enough Nam Simram.

The complexity of the discussion is not what makes me feel like an idiot. If I feel like an idiot, it is because I am an idiot. Understanding is my responsibility.

Thank you

 

[badmash]

You are hardly an idiot. Quite the contrary.

It is the rare individual who can take a second path, and have the patience and intellect to comprehend a philosophy totally different than that which one was brought up with.

 

[drkhalsa]

Had you not pulled the conversation together at several times, this would have escaped me. It is the kind of thing that someone who was not born a Sikh would not know, and would have to "bump into it" so to speak. We are gaining more knowledge, and it is knowledge that makes a difference in understanding who is saying what in the thread.

In the end, where anyone ends up depends perhaps on the very first contacts he/she made with Sikhism. This is good.

__________________

Dear Freind aad002



I really apreciate the way you are so op=en to this new philosophy of sikhism as evedent from your posts. as rightly pointed pou t by badmash that you seems to be more courageous and p=erhap=s more blessed as compared to average SIKH ( born sikh) as many like me failed to take notice of sikh philosophy for many years although born in sikh family.

Today's discussion led me to discover the Namdhari, whose historical and spiritual contributions are immense. Sikhs may disagree on many issues including the nature of God and the proper role of Nam Simram in spiritual development, but the abolishment of female infanticide, the dowry, and caste distinctions, etc. define the Sikh path in part because of the efforts of Namdhari when Guru Gobind ji left this earth.

Your obsevation are right .= Sikhism has been enriched with many traditions and all these have made and p=rerved it beauty in unique ways .The most significant thing in my understanding that naamdhari p=reserved was the Raag ( classical) Kirtan and Bani of Dassam Patshah.=

while abolition Foeticide and caste abolition was there itself at the time of Guru Gobind Singh ji as evedent from rehatnamas where sikh p=rohibited to keep= any contacts with KURIMAAR ( Girl killer) and Initiation of Khalsa where all the first Intiatore ( Panj Pyara) were from different caste and majority from so called Lower caste .



Thanks for your Input



Jatinder Singh