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Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by vsgrewal48895, Apr 6, 2009.

  1. vsgrewal48895

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    Mar 12, 2009
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    The Vedas were compiled around the time of Krishna (3500 B.C.), and even at that time were hardly understood. Only in recent times have their spiritual import, like that of the other mystery teachings of the ancient world, begun to be rediscovered or appreciated even in India. Like the Egyptian teachings they are veiled, symbolic and subtle and require a special vision to understand and use properly.

    According to Sabd Guru Vedas do not know the extent of God but deal with three qualities of Maya, Virtue and vice. Guru Angad ponder on the subject in Raag Sarang;

    ਕਥਾ ਕਹਾਣੀ ਬੇਦੀਂ ਆਣੀ ਪਾਪੁ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਦੇ ਦੇ ਲੈਣਾ ਲੈ ਲੈ ਦੇਣਾ ਨਰਕਿ ਸੁਰਗਿ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥ ਉਤਮ ਮਧਿਮ ਜਾਤੀਂ ਜਿਨਸੀ ਭਰਮਿ ਭਵੈ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਾਣੀ ਤਤੁ ਵਖਾਣੀ ਗਿਆਨ ਧਿਆਨ ਵਿਚਿ ਆਈ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਆਖੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਤੀ ਸੁਰਤੀ ਕਰਮਿ ਧਿਆਈ ॥

    Katha Khaani Baydeen Aani Paap Punn Vichaar. Ḏe ḏe laiṇā lai lai ḏeṇā narak surag avṯār. Uṯam maḏẖim jāṯīʼn jinsī bẖaram bẖavai sansār. Amriṯ baṇī ṯaṯ vakẖāṇī gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān vicẖ ā▫ī. Gurmukẖ ākẖī gurmukẖ jāṯī surṯīʼn karam ḏẖi▫ā▫ī.

    The story of sins and virtuous actions has been brought out in the world, by the Vedas. What is given, they receive, and what is received, they give. They are reincarnated in heaven and hell. High and low, social class and status - the world wanders lost in superstition. The Ambrosial Word of Gurbani proclaims the essence of reality, spiritual wisdom, and meditation. The Guru willed chant it, realize it, and being intuitively aware, meditate on it.-----Guru Angad, Sarang Ki Vaar, AGGS, Page, 1243-15

    Sabd Guru describe God as unfathomable, incomprehensible, infinite, invisible, imperishable, inaccessible, detached, and indefinable. God is the only Truth. Vedas speak of three Gunas and three modes of Maya, four doctrines, six sacrificial rituals, and three stages of spiritual progress, hell, and heaven but nothing about liberation. The Sabd Guru, on the other hand, describes the 4rth state of Equipoise and bliss. This fourth state is achieved by meditating on the “True Name”, which is Truth Itself. One can realize and understand the Truth only if his heart is pure and truthful. It is the Truth alone, which is the remedy for all our ills. One knows the Truth only; by a pilgrimage of self and living a life of and becoming one with the Truth.

    It is believed that humans did not compose the revered compositions of the Vedas, which were handed down through generations by the word of mouth from time immemorial known as “Oral Tradition.” The sages who possessed the knowledge of Vedas were unique and had extra ordinary qualities and were known as incarnations. These persons were called Aptas or Rishis and their words expressing the beginning less and endless mass of infinite and highest knowledge came to be known as Vedas.

    Vedas were written by Rishi Byasa (Vyasa Krishna Dwaipayana) son of fish (fisher woman Satyavati), when he got self realized.

    ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਮਲ ਪੁਤੁ ਮੀਨ ਬਿਆਸਾ ਤਪੁ ਤਾਪਨ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਾਵੈਗੋ॥ਜੋ ਜੋ ਭਗਤੁ ਹੋਇ ਸੋ ਪੂਜਹੁ ਭਰਮਨ ਭਰਮੁ ਚੁਕਾਵੈਗੋ ॥

    Braham Kamal Put Meen Byasa Tap Taapan Pooj Kraavego. Jo jo bẖagaṯ ho▫e so pūjahu bẖarman bẖaram cẖukāvaigo.

    Brahma the son of Lotus (who sprang from the navel of Vishnu) and Byasa, the son of fish (fisher-woman Satyavati); by their austerities are worshipped Venerate all devotees; there by shall wandering in transmigration and doubts will be annulled.-----Guru Ramdas, Raag Kanra, AGGS, Page, 1309-7

    Byasa was the compiler of Mahabharata, the founder of Vedanta philosophy and the editor of Puraanas. He was said to be the twenty-eighth of the Vyasas or compilers of Vedic knowledge. He was somewhat older than the Avatar Krishna and his work continued after the death of Krishna. Perhaps he is symbolic of a whole Vedic school which flourished at that time, as many such Vedic schools were once prominent all over India and in some places beyond.

    All the available religious literature or even incarnated Avatars do not know the All Knowing Supreme God or Its limits says Guru Arjan In Raag Ramkali;

    ਅਵਤਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਨਹਿ ਅੰਤੁ ॥ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬੇਅੰਤੁ ॥

    Avatar Na Janay Ant, Parmaser Parbraham Beant.

    Incarnated beings do not know his limit, The Transcendent Akal Purkh, The Supreme is infinite. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 894-4

    The Vedas deal mainly with the subject of the three modes of Maya (material nature). The Vedas are the ancient scriptures or revelation (Shruti) of the Hindu teachings. They manifest the Divine Word in human speech. They reflect into human language the language of the Gods, the Divine powers that have created us and which rule over us.

    ਨਾਰਦ ਬਚਨ ਬਿਆਸੁ ਕਹਤ ਹੈ ਸੁਕ ਕਉ ਪੂਛਹੁ ਜਾਈ ॥ ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਮਿ ਛੂਟਹੁ ਨਾਹਿ ਤ ਬੂਡੇ ਭਾਈ ॥

    Narad Bachan Byas Kahat Hai Suk Kaou Poochoh Jaayee. Kahi Kabīr rāmai ram cẖẖūtahu nāhi ṯa būde bẖā▫ī.

    Byasa narrates the sayings of Narada, ask Sukdev about it. Says Kabir, chanting the God's Name, you shall be saved; otherwise, you shall drown, brother.-----Kabir, Raag Maru, AGGS, Page, 1103-4

    ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਮੁਨਿ ਬ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਸੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਬੇਦ ਬ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਕਰਣ ਬੀਚਾਰਿਅ ॥

    Gun Gaavai Mun Bhyasu Jin Bayd Bhiakaran Bichaariyaa.

    The sage Byasa sings the praises of Guru Nanak. He reflected on Vedic grammar.-----Swayeeay Mahalay Pehlay Kay, AGGS, Page, 1390-14

    The Vedic knowledge consists of two parts;

    a) Knowledge – Vedanta.

    b) Works-Social welfare (work of Manu).

    Vedas and their philosophies;

    There are four Vedas;

     The Rig-Veda.

     The Yajur-Veda.

     The Sama-Veda.

     The Atharva-Veda.

    In all, the whole Veda is divided into one thousand one hundred and eighty recensions. Each Veda consists of four parts: the Mantra-Samhitas or hymns, the Brahmanas or explanations of Mantras or rituals, the Aranyakas, and the Upanishads. The division of the Vedas into four parts is to suit the four stages in a man's life.

    The Rig-Veda Samhita; its immortal Mantras embody the greatest truths of existence, and it is perhaps the greatest treasure in all the scriptural literature of the world. It is divided into twenty-one sections. The Mantra-Samhitas are hymns in praise of the Vedic God for attaining material prosperity here and happiness hereafter. They are metrical poems comprising prayers, hymns and incantations addressed to various deities, both subjective and objective. (Materialism) With the 33 gods of the Vedas pantheon mythology, including the Cosmic Trinity of Agni (god of fire), Vayu, (god of air), and Surya (god of energy or life)... plus Varuna (principal), Indra (war)...

    The Yajur-Veda Samhita; is mostly in prose and is meant to be used by the Adhvaryu, the Yajur-Vedic priest, for superfluous explanations of the rites in sacrifices to gods, supplementing the Rig-Vedic Mantras. It is again divided into two parts, the Sukla and the Krishna. The Krishna or the Taittiriya is the older book and the Sukla or the Vajasaneya is a later revelation to sage Yajnavalkya from the resplendent Sun-God. It has one hundred and nine sections. (Sacrifices)

    The Sama-Veda Samhita is mostly borrowed from the Rig-Vedic Samhita, and is meant to be sung by the Udgatri, (Chants for worship) the Sama Vedic priest, in sacrifices. It has one thousand sections.

    The Atharva-Veda Samhita is meant to be used by the Brahma, the Atharva-Vedic priest, to correct the mispronunciations and wrong performances that may accidentally be committed by the other three priests of the sacrifice. It is divided in to fifty sections. It deals with Magic spells, healing the sick. (Sidhis)

    The commonalities in Vedanta and Sikh Faith are Chanting of Naam and development of Virtues and subjugating the vices but the main four philosophies of the Vedas mentioned above have been discredited by Sikh Gurus.

    ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗ ਮਹਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਾਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ॥ਪੂਰੈ ਭਾਗਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਣੀ॥ ਸਿਧ ਸਾਧਿਕ ਤਰਸਹਿ ਸਭਿ ਲੋਇ ॥ ਪੂਰੈ ਭਾਗਿ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥ Cẖahu jug mėh amriṯ sācẖī baṇī. Pūrai bẖāg har nām samāṇī. Siḏẖ sāḏẖik ṯarsėh sabẖ lo▫e. Pūrai bẖāg parāpaṯ ho▫e.

    Throughout the four ages, the True Bani of Akal Purkh’s Word is Ambrosial Nectar. By perfect destiny, one is absorbed in the True Name. The Sidhas, the seekers and all men long for the Name. It is obtained only by perfect destiny. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Dhanasari, AGGS, and Page 665-17 & 18

    The Vedas are the primary texts of Hinduism. They also had a vast influence on Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism. It is unknown when Vedas were finally committed to writing, but this probably was at some point after 300 B.C. The primary portion is the mantra or hymn section (samhita). To this are appended ritualistic teachings (Brahman) and theological sections (Aranyaka). Appended at the end are philosophical sections (Upanishads). The hymn sections are the oldest. The others were added at a later date and each explains some aspect of the hymns or follows one line that interprets them.

    Men of shallow understanding get attracted by the flowery words of the Vedas, which recommend various fruitive activities for elevation humans to heavenly planets, cause a nobler birth, bestow power, and so forth. Being desirous of sense gratification and opulent life, they say that there is nothing more than this. -----Bhagwat Gita, 42-43, Page, 129

    The mythological references in AGGS are only metaphoric. Guru Nanak describes in Raag Bilawal that The One, Akal Purkh created three gods i.e. Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva, along with many other gods and goddesses of different styles, and 3 pronged Maya.

    ਤ੍ਰਿਤੀਆ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸਾ ॥ ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵ ਉਪਾਏ ਵੇਸਾ ॥

    Ŧariṯī­ā barahmā bisan mahėsā. Ḏėvī ḏėv upā­ė vėsā.

    Lunar day 3: God created Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, the gods, goddesses and various manifestations of the lights and forms, which cannot be counted. The One who fashioned them knows their value and evaluates them. Akal Purkh totally pervades them, whether they are close or far away. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Bilawal, AGGS, Page, 839-6

    The True Master created this Universe from the “Word” with Its Will and Greatness. The created gods in turn wrote 4 Vedas, 18 Puraanas, and 6 Shastras. Guru Nanak ponder on the subject in various Ragas;

    ਸਾਮ ਵੇਦੁ ਰਿਗੁ ਜੁਜਰੁ ਅਥਰਬਣੁ ॥ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਮੁਖਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਹੈ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ॥ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਹਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੋ ਤਿਉ ਬੋਲੇ ਜਿਉ ਬੋਲਾਇਦਾ ॥

    Saam Vayd Rig Jujar Atharban,Brahamay Mukh Maya Hai Trai Gun, Taa Ki Keemat Kahee Na Sakai Ko Teo Bolay Jio Bolaaeydaa.

    The Saam Veda, The Rig, The Jujar, The Atharban came out of the mouth of Brahma and they speak about three Gunas and three qualities of Maya. None of them can describe Its worth. We speak as It inspires us to speak. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Maru, AGGS, Page, 1038-1

    ਓੜਕ ਓੜਕ ਭਾਲਿ ਥਕੇ ਵੇਦ ਕਹਨਿ ਇਕ ਵਾਤ ॥ ਸਹਸ ਅਠਾਰਹ ਕਹਨਿ ਕਤੇਬਾ ਅਸੁਲੂ ਇਕੁ ਧਾਤੁ ॥ ਲੇਖਾ ਹੋਇ ਤ ਲਿਖੀਐ ਲੇਖੈ ਹੋਇ ਵਿਣਾਸੁ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਵਡਾ ਆਖੀਐ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਣੈ ਆਪੁ ॥

    Orhak Orhak Bhaal Thakay Ved Kahan Ik Vaat. Sahas aṯẖārah kahan kaṯebā asulū ik ḏẖāṯ. Lekẖā ho▫e ṯa likī▫ai lekẖai ho▫e viṇās. Nānak vadā ākẖī▫ai āpe jāṇai āp.

    The Vedas say that you can search and search for them all, until you grow weary. The scriptures say that there are 18,000 worlds, but in reality, there is only One Universe. If you try to write an account of this, you will surely finish yourself before you finish writing it. O Nanak, call Akal Purkh Great! It Itself knows Itself. -----Guru Nanak, japji, AGGS, Page, 5-3

    ਚਾਰੇ ਵੇਦ ਹੋਏ ਸਚਿਆਰ ॥ ਪੜਹਿ ਗੁਣਹਿ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਚਾਰ ਵੀਚਾਰ ॥

    Charay Vayd Hoey Suchiaar, Parheh Guneyh Tin Chaar Vichaar.

    The four Vedas were professed to be true; by reading them one finds four doctrines.

    Question: Which of these doctrines should Sikhs Follow?


    ਭਾਉ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਨੀਚੁ ਸਦਾਏ ॥ ਤਉ ਨਾਨਕ ਮੋਖੰਤਰੁ ਪਾਏ ॥

    Bhaa-o Bhagat Kar Neech Sadaa-ay, Ta-o Nanak Mokhantar Paa-ay.

    With loving devotional worship, abiding in humility, O, Nanak, salvation is attained.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 470-8

    Spiritual wisdom is not obtained by merely reading the religious scriptures but by understanding as to what the teaching therein means:

    ਵੇਦ ਕਹਹਿ ਵਖਿਆਣ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਵਣਾ ॥ਪੜਿਐ ਨਾਹੀ ਭੇਦੁ ਬੁਝਿਐ ਪਾਵਣਾ ॥

    Vayd Kaheh Vakhiaan Unt Na Paavnaa, Parhi-ai Naahee Bhayd Bujhi-ai Paavnaa.

    The Vedas speak and expound on the God, but they do not know Its limits. Not by studying, but through understanding, is the Akal Purkh's Mystery revealed.-----Guru Nanak, Var Majh, AGGS, Page, 148-2

    ਚਾਰੇ ਬੇਦ ਕਥਹਿ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥ ਤੀਨਿ ਅਵਸਥਾ ਕਹਹਿ ਵਖਿਆਨੁ ॥ ਤੁਰੀਆਵਸਥਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਹਰਿ ਜਾਨੁ ॥

    Chaaray Bayd Katheh Aakaar, Teen Aavastha Keheh Vakhian, Turi Aavastha Satgur Tay Jaan.

    The four Vedas speak only of the visible forms expostulating only the three stages and the fourth stage of equipoise is known through the Guru’s Grace Alone.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 154-11

    ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਧਾਰੇ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਧਾਰੇ ਸੁਨਨ ਗਿਆਨ ਧਿਆਨ ॥

    Naam Kay Dhaaray Simrit Bayd Puraan, Naam Kay Dhaaray Sunan Gi-aan Dhi-aan.

    The Naam is the Support of the Simritees, the Vedas and the Puraanas. Through the help of Naam we learn about spiritual wisdom and meditation.-----Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 284-12

    ਅਸਟ ਦਸੀ ਚਹੁ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ ॥

    Asatt Dasee Chahu Bhaydu Na Paiyaa, Nanak Satgur Barahm Dikhaa-i-aa.

    The eighteen Puraanas and the four Vedas do not know God’s mystery. O Nanak, the True Guru has shown me the Master God. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 355-8

    ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਹਭਾ ਹੂੰ ਬਾਹਰਾ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ਦਿਸੈ ਜਾਹਰਾ ॥

    Bayd Katayb Sansaar Habhaa Hoon Baahraa, Nanak Kaa Paatisaahu Disai Jaahraa.

    God is beyond the world of the Vedas, the Qur’an and other religious Scripture. The Supreme Emperor of Nanak is immanent and manifest. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 397-7

    ਕਹਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਭਲੇ ਅਸਵਾਰਾ ॥ ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਤੇ ਰਹਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਰਾ ॥

    Kahat Kabir Bhalay Asvaaraa, Bayd Katayb Tay Raheh Niraaraa.

    Says Kabir, those who remain detached from the Vedas, the Qur’an and other religious Scriptures are the best riders. -----Kabir, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 329-12

    ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਭ ਖੋਜੇ ਕਹੂ ਨ ਊਬਰਨਾ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਇਉ ਰਾਮਹਿ ਜੰਪਉ ਮੇਟਿ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨਾ ॥

    Bayd Puraan Simirit Sabh Khojay Kahoo Na Oobarnaa, Kaho Kabir I-o Raameh Jampa-o Mayt Janam Marnaa.

    I have searched all the Vedas, Puraanas and Simritees, but none of these can save anyone. Says Kabir, meditate on God, and eliminate birth and death.-----Bhagat Kabir, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 477-2

    ਆਪੇ ਵੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਸਭਿ ਸਾਸਤ ਆਪਿ ਕਥੈ ਆਪਿ ਭੀਜੈ ॥ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਬਹਿ ਪੂਜੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਪਰਪੰਚੁ ਕਰੀਜੈ ॥

    Aapay Vayd Puraan Sabh Saasat Aap Kathai Aap Bheejai, Aapay Hee Bahi Poojay Kartaa Aap Parpanch Kareejai.

    God Itself is the Vedas, the Puraanas and all the Shaastras; It Itself chants them, and It self is pleased. God Itself sits down to worship, and It self creates the world.
    -----Guru Amardas, Vaar Raag Bhigrha, AGGS, Page, 551-14

    ਬੇਦ ਪੜੇ ਪੜਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਹਾਰੇ ਇਕੁ ਤਿਲੁ ਨਹੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਈ ॥ ਸਾਧਿਕ ਸਿਧ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਬਿਲਲਾਤੇ ਤੇ ਭੀ ਮੋਹੇ ਮਾਈ ॥

    Bayd Parhay Parh Brahmay Haaray Ik Til Nahin Keemat Paayee, SaaDhik SiDh Fireh Billaatay Tay Bhee Mohay Maa-ee.

    Even gods like Brahma, through their knowledge of Vedas have failed to know Your greatness or secrets. The seekers and Siddhas wander around bewailing; they too are enticed by Maya. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Suhi, AGGS, Page, 747-11

    ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਭਿ ਸਾਸਤ ਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਪੜਿਆ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ ਏਕੁ ਅਖਰੁ ਜੋ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਪੈ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਸੋਈ ॥

    Bayd Katayb Simirit Sabh Saasat Inh Parhiyaa Mukat Na Hoey, Ayk aAhar Jo Gurmukh Japai Tis Kee Nirmal So-ee.

    One may read all the books of the Vedas, the Quran and other religious Scriptures, the Simritees and the Shaastras, but they will not bring liberation. One, who, as Guru willed, chants the One Word, acquires a spotlessly pure reputation. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Suhi, AGGS, Page, 747-18

    ਸਾਸਤ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਪੁਕਾਰਹਿ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਰਹੁ ਖਟੁ ਕਰਮ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਈਆ ॥ਮਨਮੁਖ ਪਾਖੰਡਿ ਭਰਮਿ ਵਿਗੂਤੇ ਲੋਭ ਲਹਰਿ ਨਾਵ ਭਾਰਿ ਬੁਡਈਆ ॥

    Saasat Bayd Puraan Pukaareh Dharam Karoh Khat Karam Dhrirrheyaa, Manmukh Pakhand Bharam Vigootay Lobh Lahar Naav Bhaar Buda-ee-aa.

    The Shaastras, the Vedas and the Puraanas advise righteous actions, and the performance of the six religious rituals. The hypocritical, self-willed are ruined by doubt; in the waves of greed, their boat is heavily loaded, and it sinks. -----Guru Ramdas, Raag Bilawal, AGGS, Page, 834-8

    ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬੀ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਤਾ॥ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਸੁਤ ਭ੍ਰਾਤਾ॥ਸਗਲੇ ਸੈਲ ਉਪਾਇ ਸਮਾਏ ਅਲਖੁਨ ਲਖਣਾ ਜਾਈ ਹੇ॥

    Bayd Kataybi Bhayd Na Jata, Na Tis Maat Pita Sut Bhraata, Sglay Sil Uaa-ay Smaa-ay Aakh N Lkh-naa Ja-ee Hy.

    The Vedas, Quran and other religious Scriptures do not know the mystery of God. It has no mother, father, child or brother. God created all the mountains, and levels them again; the Unseen Master cannot be seen. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Maru, AGGS, Page, 1021-16

    ਪਡੀਆ ਕਵਨ ਕੁਮਤਿ ਤੁਮ ਲਾਗੇ ॥ ਬੂਡਹੁਗੇ ਪਰਵਾਰ ਸਕਲ ਸਿਉ ਰਾਮੁ ਨ ਜਪਹੁ ਅਭਾਗੇ ॥ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਪੜੇ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਗੁਨੁ ਖਰ ਚੰਦਨ ਜਸ ਭਾਰਾ ॥

    Padee-aa Kavan Kumat Tum Laagay, Bood-Hugay Parvaar Sakal Si-o Raam Na Japahu Abhaagay, Bayd Puraan Parhay Ka Kia Gun Khar Chandan Jas Bhaaraa.

    O Pundit, O religious scholar, in what foul thoughts are you engaged? You shall be drowned, along with your family, if you do not meditate on the God, you unfortunate person. What is the use of reading the Vedas and the Puraanas? It is like loading a donkey with sandalwood. -----Bhagat Kabir, Raag Maru, AGGS, Page, 1102-19

    ਬੇਦੁ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਪਾਪੁ ਸੁਰਗ ਨਰਕ ਕਾ ਬੀਉ ॥ ਜੋ ਬੀਜੈ ਸੋ ਉਗਵੈ ਖਾਂਦਾ ਜਾਣੈ ਜੀਉ ॥

    Bayd Pukaaray Punn Paap Surg Narak Kaa Beeou, Jo Beejai So Ugvai KhaaNdaa Jaanai Jee-o.

    The Vedas proclaim that vices and virtues are the seeds of heaven and hell. Whatever is planted shall grow. The soul eats the fruits of its actions, and understands.
    -----Guru Nanak, Sarang Ki Vaar, AGGS, Page, 1243-18

    ਚਾਰੇ ਕੁੰਡਾ ਜੇ ਭਵਹਿ ਬੇਦ ਪੜਹਿ ਜੁਗ ਚਾਰਿ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਚਾ ਭੇਟੈ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰ ॥

    Chaaray Kundaa Jay Bhaveh Bayd Parheh Jug Chaar, Nanak Saacha Bhetai Har Man Vasai Paaveh Mokh Duaar.

    You may wander in all four directions, and read the Vedas throughout the four ages. O’ Nanak, if you meet with the True Guru, the Akal Purkh shall come to dwell within your mind, and you shall find the door of salvation.-----Guru Amardas, Sloke Vaaran To Vadheek, AGGS, Page, 1421-3

    ਕਬੀਰ ਮਾਇ ਮੂੰਡਉ ਤਿਹ ਗੁਰੂ ਕੀ ਜਾ ਤੇ ਭਰਮੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ਆਪ ਡੁਬੇ ਚਹੁ ਬੇਦ ਮਹਿ ਚੇਲੇ ਦੀਏ ਬਹਾਇ ॥

    Kabir maa-ay moonda-o tih guroo kee jaa tay bharam na jaa-ay.Aap Dubay Choh Bayd Meh Chaylay Deeay Bahaaay.

    Kabir, shave the mother of that guru, who does not take away one's doubt.He himself is drowning in the four Vedas; he drowns his disciples as well. -----Sloke Kabir, 104, AGGS, Page, .1369 & 70

    ਕੋਈ ਪੜੈ ਬੇਦ ਕੋਈ ਕਤੇਬ ॥ ਕੋਈ ਓਢੈ ਨੀਲ ਕੋਈ ਸੁਪੇਦ ॥ ਕੋਈ ਕਹੈ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਕੋਈ ਕਹੈ ਹਿੰਦੂ ॥ ਕੋਈ ਬਾਛੈ ਭਿਸਤੁ ਕੋਈ ਸੁਰਗਿੰਦੂ ॥ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਤਾ ॥ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕਾ ਤਿਨਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਜਾਤਾ ॥

    Koyee Parhai Bayd Koyee Katayb, Koyee Odhai Neel Koyee Supayd,Koyee Kahay Turak Koyee Kahai Hindu, Koyee Baachhai Bhist Koyee Surgindoo,Kaho Nanak Jin Hukam Pachaataa, Prabh Sahib Ka Tin Bhayd Jataa.

    Some read Vedas, and some Qur’an, Some wear blue robes, and some wear white, Some call themselves Muslim, and some call themselves Hindus, Some yearn for paradise and others for heaven. Says Nanak, one who realizes the Command of God’s Will, knows the secrets of his Akal Purkh and Master. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 885


    The four Vedas written by sage Vyasa illustrate story of Narda and other Hindu gods. Vedas speak of three Gunas and three modes of Maya, four doctrines, six sacrificial rituals, and three stages of spiritual progress, hell, and heaven but nothing of liberation. Vedas do not know about the limit of the God. The fourth stage of Sahaj for individual liberation is only through Naam in this age of Kal, as explained and stressed by Sabd Guru.

    ਖਟੁ ਕਰਮਾ ਅਰੁ ਆਸਣੁ ਧੋਤੀ ॥ ਭਾਗਠਿ ਗ੍ਰਿਹਿ ਪੜੈ ਨਿਤ ਪੋਥੀ ॥ ਮਾਲਾ ਫੇਰੈ ਮੰਗੈ ਬਿਭੂਤ ॥ ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਤਰਿਓ ਮੀਤ ॥ ਸੋ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਕਮਾਇ ॥ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਕੀ ਓਸੁ ਉਤਰੀ ਮਾਇ ॥ ਚਤੁਰ ਬੇਦ ਪੂਰਨ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਸਰਣੀ ਪਾਇ ॥

    Kẖat karmā ar āsaṇ ḏẖoṯī. Bẖāgaṯẖ garihi paṛai niṯ pothī. Mālā ferai mangai bibẖūṯ. Ih biḏẖ ko▫e na ṯari▫o mīṯ. So pandiṯ gur sabaḏ kamā▫e.Trai Gun Ki Ous Outree Maey, Chatur Bayd Pooran Har Naey, Nanak Tis Ki Sarni Paey.

    You perform the six religious rituals, and sit wearing your loin-cloth. In the homes of the wealthy, you read the prayer book. You chant on your mala, and beg for money. No one has ever been saved in this way, friend. He alone is a Pundit, who lives the Word of the Guru's Sabd. Maya, of the three qualities, leaves him. The four Vedas are completely contained within the God's Name. Nanak seeks Its Sanctuary. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 888

    Virinder S. Grewal
    Williamston, MI
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  3. Amarpal

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    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Jun 11, 2004
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    Dear Khalsa Ji,

    I am adding to the beautiful post from Virinder Ji on ‘Vedas’.

    Vedas were created over a long period of time. They were passed on from the Guru to disciples by a word of mouth. At some stage they were compiled and written down; as Virinder Ji’s post says, when precisely? no one knows.

    The sage Ved Vyas is said to be the compiler or all of them. The period of time over which this compilation took place was many times more than the life time of any human being. Scholars of Ramakrishna Mission suggest that Ved Vyas was not a person but a post. Ved means knowledge, and Vyas means diameter. Together it means a person whose knowledge was vast enough to encompass all the knowledge of Vedas. Such a person was authorized to compile the knowledge into a collection and to edit them.

    Rig Veda to Upanishad indicates the evolution of the spiritual thoughts in this part of the world. While Rig Veda is the text of a ritualistic religion, Upanishads are philosophical in nature. At many places Upanishad do not agree with Vedas, at places Upanishad are critical of Vedas. Rig Vedas have only male Gods and basically sing the praise of these multiple Gods and seek their assistance in combating what threatens them and seek their blessing on any good event. Philosophical thoughts of Upanishads co-exist with the rituals of Rig Veda in present day followers of that religion.

    Note: Upa means lower; ni means ground; shad means sitting. Upa+ni+Shad = Upanishad means sitting on ground at a level lower that the level at which the Guru is sitting. This was the way the disciples learned from the Guru and when they this learning was documented the compilation too was called Upanishad

    As Virinder Ji has referred to ‘The Laws of Manu’, true, they form the basis of sociology of Hindu society; even formation of constitution of India is influenced by it. As I understand, these were created and compiled over a long period of time by wise people of that time (Manu means wise person). I hold the opinion that many wise individuals of that time have progressively created it with twin objective in mind – (a) to maintain the predominance of Brahmins (the highest caste of Hindu society) and (b) to regulate the society of that time.

    Because the Laws of Manu prevented all persons other than male Brahmins to get educated and participate actively in religious practices, it was creating problem and thus providing incentive for them to leave Hindu fold and join other religions including Tantra which made no distinction between based on caste or gender. It is for this reason Bhagavatam – the last of the compilation by Ved Vyas was undertaken; no restriction was put on listening or reading to it. It brought in active practice of religion a large section of population – viz. all the women of all the four castes including Brahmin women who were not allowed earlier; all the males of the other three castes; and degenerated and expelled Brahmins, which was otherwise left out by Vedic practices and Laws of Manu.

    To the common people instead of Philosophy of Upanishads, it the mythology and epics that gave a religious satisfaction within the Hindu society and provided the glue to remain within Hindu fold which was under pressure from Jainism and Buddhism.

    The various streams of worships and philosophies co-existed along side under the umbrella of Hinduism. This was natural in absence of any central authority to enforce a specific way. To illustrate it, I do not have to go far. Sikh religion does not believe in caste system, yet by force of habits and past affiliation some form of caste still exist in practice, we find Sikhs of different denominations. This way the word Hinduism came to encompass a very large number of practices and ways of worships in its fold; Vedic practices co-existed with Upanishad and Bhagti of mythological Avatars. All are right because they believe in it; they believe that their mythological Avatars and Vedic Gods are true; it is similar to my belief in a formless Absolute ‘The Sat’; there is no scientific basis for both the beliefs – mine and theirs, that is why they are called beliefs.

    Hindu religion has logically arranged all the different streams of thoughts in a form of hierarchy. The Gods of Vedas, e.g. Indra, Varun, Yama, Surya etc all were considered Gods of heaven (Swarga), above them came the trinity of Brahama, Vishnu and Shiva, which were part of creation and The mythological Avatars where told to be the incarnation of one of the three gods constituting the Trinity. Above the trinity came the source for all the three, the formless.

    All these beliefs co-exist in Hindu fold. The Followers of Santana Dharma, who predominantly worship the Avatars of the two Epics – Ramayana and Mahabharata – do chant Vedic Mantras during their rituals, while followers of Maharishi Dayanand Saraswati (founder of Arya Samaj) who asked his followers to follow Vedic practices and limit themselves to Vedic forms of worship (Havens and Yagnas where Mantras from Vedas are chanted in presence of fire and sacrifices for Vedic Gods), but most of these followers also celebrate Janmasthami and Diwali which are connected to epics at places even the practices of Tantra too enter into their worship. All religious streams of Hindu religion co-exist in all with different weight-age as felt right by the followers.

    Guru Sahib knew all about the evolution of Hindu system of religious ideas. He knew that the purpose of birth in human form is not to live the worldly life, but to act as instrument of the creator in protect and evolve the creation. He told his Sikhs that the sole source of all that is, is the Absolute i.e. ‘The Sat’, our life is sustained by ‘The Sat’, ‘The Sat’ is within us; we, from the depth of our heart and soul, happily serve ‘The Sat’ in whom finally we merge. He remove the complications and asked his disciple to worship the formless, ‘The Sat’. He eliminate the need of rituals in the worship and emphasized Dhyan (Meditation), Simran (remembrance), and Jaap (repeated utterance of the symbolic vocal sound – Satnaam Waheguru or Waheguru - that brings the idea of ‘The Sat’ to mind) He gave us the teachings in the form of the text of Siri Guru Granth Sahib to read, learn and find our own way through Sikh religion to spirituality and ultimately to divinity.

    He made Sikh religion a common man’s religion which Vedic religion was not. Its text was in Sanskrit, which was taught only to Brahmins who earned their living from it. Guru Sahib even eliminated these priests and made the relations between the natural as they are i.e. direct. Each of his follower could worship ‘The Ultimate Absolute and Essence of all that Is’ – ‘The Sat’ on her or his own.

    With this I close the post.

    With love and respect for all.

    Amarpal Singh
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  4. vsgrewal48895

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    Mar 12, 2009
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    Dear Amarpal Ji,

    Thank you very much for further enlightening on the subject. Please keep on doing this as we all are hungary for further information.


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  5. Amarpal

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    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Jun 11, 2004
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    Virinder Ji,

    It is same here, I am learning from your posts

    With love and regards

    Amarpal Singh
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  6. hermanhans

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    Feb 8, 2008
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    Thanks for enlightening us. Regards
  7. singh62

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    Mar 17, 2012
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    well written
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