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Understanding Gurbani

Discussion in 'New to Sikhism' started by spnadmin, Nov 3, 2007.

  1. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    First line - Speaks about the death of the Ego -- when a person is dead but alive their individuality, sense of individual self has ended and their consciousness is perfectly tuned to the Divine. Detachment, consciousness, anand. Oneness with the Divine equals liberation.

    Second line - In ordinary consciousness, one sees and hears in the ordinary sense, but is blind and deaf to consciousness of the Divine, and so may as well have never been born. Distraction in Maya equals bondage.
     
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  3. Sikh80

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    Respected aad ji
    Very many Thanks for your lucid resonse.

    hm sbid muey sbid mwir jIvwly BweI sbdy hI mukiq pweI ] (601-4, soriT, mÚ 3)

    [I have died in the Word of the Shabad, and through the Shabad, I am dead while yet alive, O Siblings of Destiny; through the Shabad, I have been liberated.]
    and
    sbdu n jwxih sy AMny boly sy ikqu Awey sMswrw ] (601-6, soriT, mÚ 3)
    [Those who do not know the Shabad are blind and deaf; why did they even bother to come into the ....
    ================================================
    Coming straight to the point kindly explain the meaning of the translation and as to how that you have interpreted above would be linked to the meaning assigned by the translator.
    I cannot do it.
    Could you kindly assign meaning to the translation of the first tuk that I have split into three parts as follows:

    1.I have died in word of sabad
    2.and through Sabad I am dead and yet alive;
    3.thru Sabad I have been liberated.

    Would be grateful again.My understanding of gurbani is very limited and hence a request.

    Regards.
     
  4. spnadmin

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    Seeker ji

    Sat Nam -- I added two thoughts to my reply which on re-reading seem essentail.
     
  5. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    Seeker07 Ji, and Aad Ji,

    Here's my two cents worth.

    Question 2 and 3 are the same thing yet explained differently.

    I would explain it as follows:-

    The linkage with the shabad is so strong and unbreakable that one's purpose of coming into this world had been accomplished. For, now it is the permanent asra (dependence) of the inner shabad.

    I am dead and yet alive - dead towards the world and liberated in soul.

    But in this context, it means still living in my physical body, but as good as dead as there is no further use of this physical body. Mission has been accomplished.

    ~ Santokh ~
     
  6. spnadmin

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    Santokh,

    You are saying something important. A person doesn't stop living in the world or even ignoring the world - the illusion is also His creation. There is a change of mind.
     
  7. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Very Many Thanks to Aad ji and Begum ji for explanations. I think the problem is my understanding. It is requested that kindly bear me and let me sail through the meaning that you are trying to explain but I am not able to get. May be it is on account of my total ignorance, I shall put it again in my language and may be then you can explain looking into the pit in which my intellect is fallen into.

    hm sbid muey sbid mwir jIvwly BweI sbdy hI mukiq pweI ] (601-4, soriT, mÚ 3)

    [I have died in the Word of the Shabad, and through the Shabad, I am dead while yet alive, O Siblings of Destiny; through the Shabad, I have been liberated.]
    and
    sbdu n jwxih sy AMny boly sy ikqu Awey sMswrw ] (601-6, soriT, mÚ 3)
    [Those who do not know the Shabad are blind and deaf; why did they even bother to come into the ....
    ================================
    1.I have died in 'Word Of sabad'
    2.and thru.'sabad' I am dead and yet alive.
    3. Through 'Sabad' I have been liberated.

    1.and 2
    'word of sabad' is the same eternal 'word' that is reflective of the Almighty. Hence that you are explaining is that 'In the love of Lord I attain the death i.e and am away from the wordly entanglements/Maya/illusion'. Hence I am living dead and have no ego/haume. I am 'jeevan -Mukt'.

    3.
    It is in the 'love of lord' ['Sabad'] that I get the salvation.

    The sabad used here is not the as is usually understood to be the word of gurbani.
    Kindly guide

    KIndly correct me and if you want to add ,kindly do that.
     
  8. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Seeker ji

    1.and 2
    'word of sabad' is the same eternal 'word' that is reflective of the Almighty. Hence that you are explaining is that 'In the love of Lord I attain the death i.e and am away from the wordly entanglements/Maya/illusion'. Hence I am living dead and have no ego/haume. I am 'jeevan -Mukt'.

    3.
    It is in the 'love of lord' ['Sabad'] that I get the salvation.


    I am not sure how what you are saying is fundamentally different from what has already been said -- only put differently. The shabd, the Divine Word, is what takes one to union with God, and detachment. Tunr your face to the Guru and away from Maya. Maybe I am the one who is ignorant. However, I can say that being overly analytical with language is itself a distraction from a deep experience of the shbad guru. So I shall not say more.
     
  9. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Respected Aad ji,

    Let me put it this way. I took your guidance as contained in your first post as the guide and then drew the conclusion as per the one that you state to be similar to your version of meaning.

    From the point of that I have in mind 'sabad' and 'word of sabad'[as used by the translator] to be two different and very specfic entities.

    If there is a mention of 'word of sabad' in the translation I presume it to be the 'holy word'['Ong'] uttered by the Lord Himself for bringing this creation in motion. I shall be ,in that case' implying that it is a 'sabad' which can be either of the followings:

    1.'sabad': Taken as hymn used for the eulogisation for the Almighty.

    2. Sabad: may be this is used for expressing the bani or gurbani.

    Hope you have the point of view from which the question was asked. Needless to state that the translator has his own prerogative.

    [ citing a crude example: let us read gurbani.
    I would mean:
    1.that let us read the Bani of the guru sahibs.
    or
    1.Let us read the 'word of sabad' of Bani.


    The second translation will be confusing to any one. you need not reply though and thanks.

    Thanks once again
     
  10. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    Seeker07 Ji,

    In order to understand Sabad better, I would take more lines from SGGS for comparison. The translator is correct when he mentions word of sabad because we should know the difference between the original dhun (sabad) and the manifested inner sounds (anhad shabad) which one can hear via inner ears. Original sabad created the universes. Word of the sabad = sound and light manifestation of the original sabad. The word is both heard and seen. Hence, the next tuk (line) that says,
    Those who do not know the Shabad are blind and deaf; why did they even bother to come into the ....

    Let's be clear about this,

    Original Sabad = which created the universes (cannot be known below turiya)

    Word of the sabad = manifested as sound and light principle.

    The sound principle is Anhad Naad
    The Light principle is Soul Travel

    Gurbani - writings which point in the right direction.
     
  11. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
    Dear all and Seeker07 Jee!

    A Jeev normally does not say 'I' once in life. He goes on saying it, whole life. The moment he says 'I' another time he feels his ego is grown into 'we'. The true Guru is explaining 'we' in this Vaak through their mouth (Gurmukhee) 'ham'.

    This is my understanding of the wonderful Vaak from Gurdev.

    ਹਮ ਸਬਦਿ ਮੁਏ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਾਰਿ ਜੀਵਾਲੇ ਭਾਈ ਸਬਦੇ ਹੀ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਪਾਈ ॥
    हम सबदि मुए सबदि मारि जीवाले भाई सबदे ही मुकति पाई ॥
    Ham sabaḏ mu*ė sabaḏ mār jīvālė bẖā*ī sabḏė hī mukaṯ pā*ī.
    Ego dies through Sabad. Through Sabad it kills. It makes one live, brother. Through Sabad indeed Muktee is received.


    Balbir Singh
     
  12. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Respected Friends,
    I give below the commentary of relevant part of the ang 601.The commentary is taken from the 'Teeka of Dr Sahib singh ji.
    In absence of any other reliable material it remains the authentic material on the subject.I am to believe that the English Translators have figment of imagination and that is the major /main reason of such a discussion. Hope it will help.

    I am ,however, surprised at the prudence or absence of the same in the English Translation. I should refer to the estableshed sources like that I have stated above so that the confusion is removed.

    Submitted for kind perusal of the reconciliation purpose.
    Here is the narration :

    ==========================================
    ਸੋਰਠਿ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਤੁਧੁ ਨੋ ਸਦਾ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਜਿਚਰੁ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਹੈ ਸਾਸਾ ॥ ਇਕੁ ਪਲੁ ਖਿਨੁ ਵਿਸਰਹਿ ਤੂ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਜਾਣਉ ਬਰਸ ਪਚਾਸਾ ॥ ਹਮ ਮੂੜ ਮੁਗਧ ਸਦਾ ਸੇ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸਾ ॥੧॥ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਤੁਮ ਆਪੇ ਦੇਹੁ ਬੁਝਾਈ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਤੁਧੁ ਵਿਟਹੁ ਵਾਰਿਆ ਸਦ ਹੀ ਤੇਰੇ ਨਾਮ ਵਿਟਹੁ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਈ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਹਮ ਸਬਦਿ ਮੁਏ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਾਰਿ ਜੀਵਾਲੇ ਭਾਈ ਸਬਦੇ ਹੀ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਪਾਈ ॥ ਸਬਦੇ ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਹੋਆ ਹਰਿ ਵਸਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਆਈ ॥ ਸਬਦੁ ਗੁਰ ਦਾਤਾ ਜਿਤੁ ਮਨੁ ਰਾਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥੨॥ ਸਬਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਹਿ ਸੇ ਅੰਨੇ ਬੋਲੇ ਸੇ ਕਿਤੁ ਆਏ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਜਨਮੁ ਗਵਾਇਆ ਜੰਮਹਿ ਵਾਰੋ ਵਾਰਾ ॥ ਬਿਸਟਾ ਕੇ ਕੀੜੇ ਬਿਸਟਾ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਣੇ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਮੁਗਧ ਗੁਬਾਰਾ ॥੩॥ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਲਾਏ ਭਾਈ ਤਿਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥ ਜੋ ਧੁਰਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਸੁ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਮੇਟੈ ਭਾਈ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰੇ ਸੁ ਹੋਈ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਸਿਆ ਮਨ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਭਾਈ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ਕੋਈ ॥੪॥੪॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 601}
    pdArQ:- swlwhI—slwhIN, mYN swlwhuMdw rhW [ ijcru—ijqnw icr [ Gt AMqir—srIr ivc [ swsw—swh, ijMd [ jwxau—jwxauN, mYN jwxdw hW [ mugD—mUrK [ sy—sW [1[
    buJweI—smJ [ ivthu—qoN [ bil jweI—bil jweI, mYN sdky jWdw hW [rhwau[
    muey—(ivkwrW vloN) mr skdy hW [ jIvwly—Awqmk jIvn dyNdw hY [ mukiq—ivkwrW qoN ^lwsI [ AweI—Awie, Aw ky [ dwqw—nwm dI dwiq dyx vwlw [ ijqu—ijs ivc [2[
    sy—auh bMdy [ ikqu—kwhdy leI? vwro vwrw—muV muV [ mnmuK—Awpxy mn dy ip`Cy qurn vwly [ gubwrw—hnyrw [3[
    Awpy—Awp hI [ kir—pYdw kr ky [ vyKY—sMBwldw hY [ Duir—Dur drgwh qoN [ krqw—krqwr [4[
    ArQ:- hy pRBU jI! qUM Awp hI (Awpxw nwm jpx dI mYƒ) smJ b^S [ hy pRBU! mYN qYQoN sdw sdky jwvW, mYN qyry nwm qoN kurbwn jwvW [rhwau[
    hy ipAwry pRBU jI! (myhr kr) ijqnw icr myry srIr ivc ijMd hY, mYN sdw qyrI is&iq-swlwh krdw rhW [ hy mwlk-pRBU! jdoN qUM mYƒ iek pl-Br iek iCn-Br iv`srdw hYN, mYN pMjwh swl bIq gey smJdw hW [ hy BweI! AsI sdw qoN mUrK AM\wx qury Aw rhy sW, gurU dy Sbd dI brkiq nwl (swfy AMdr Awqmk jIvn dw) cwnx hoieAw hY[1[
    hy BweI! AsI (jIv) gurU dy Sbd dI rwhIN (ivkwrW vloN) mr skdy hW, Sbd dI rwhIN hI (ivkwrW vloN) mwr ky (gurU) Awqmk jIvn dyNdw hY, gurU dy Sbd ivc juiVAW hI ivkwrW vloN ^lwsI hwsl huMdI hY [ gurU dy Sbd dI rwhIN hI mn pivqR huMdw hY, srIr pivqR huMdw hY, Aqy prmwqmw mn ivc Aw v`sdw hY [ hy BweI! gurU dw Sbd (hI nwm dI dwiq) dyx vwlw hY, jdoN Sbd ivc mn rMigAw jWdw hY qW prmwqmw ivc lIn ho jWdw hY [2[
    hy BweI! jyhVy mnu`K gurU dy Sbd nwl sWJ nhIN pWdy auh (mwieAw dy moh ivc Awqmk jIvn vloN) AMnHy boly hoey rihMdy hn, sMswr ivc Aw ky auh kuJ nhIN K`tdy [ auhnW ƒ pRBU dy nwm dw suAwd nhIN AwauNdw, auh Awpxw jIvn ivArQ gvw jWdy hn, auh muV muV jMmdy mrdy rihMdy hn [ ijvyN gMd dy kIVy gMd ivc hI itky rihMdy hn, iqvyN Awpxy mn dy ip`Cy qurn vwly mUrK mnu`K (AigAwnqw dy) hnyry ivc hI (msq rihMdy hn) [3[
    pr, hy BweI! (jIvW dy BI kIh v`s?) pRBU Awp hI (jIvW ƒ) pYdw kr ky sMBwl krdw hY, Awp hI (jIvn dy shI) rsqy pWdw hY, aus pRBU qoN ibnw hor koeI nhIN (jo jIvW ƒ rwh d`s sky) [ hy BweI! krqwr jo kuJ krdw hY auhI huMdw hY, Dur drgwh qoN (jIvW dy m`Qy qy lyK) ilK dyNdw hY, aus ƒ koeI (hor) imtw nhIN skdw [ hy nwnk! (AwK—) hy BweI! (aus pRBU dI myhr nwl hI aus dw) nwm (mnu`K dy) mn ivc v`s skdw hY, koeI hor ieh dwiq dyx jogw nhIN hY [4[4[

    ======================================
    Respected Begum ji andBalbir ji,
    I am thankful for the pains that you have taken for presenting your point of view. It is on this account that I was prompted to see the Teeka.
    Regards to All.
     
  13. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Awvhu sMq ipAwirho AkQ kI krh khwxI ] (918-4, rwmklI, mÚ 3)
    Come, Beloved Saints, let us speak the Unspoken Speech of the Lord.
    krh khwxI AkQ kyrI ikqu duAwrY pweIAY ] (918-4, rwmklI, mÚ 3)
    How can we speak the Unspoken Speech of the Lord? Through which door will we find Him?
    qnu mnu Dnu sBu sauip gur kau hukim mMinAY pweIAY ] (918-5, rwmklI, mÚ 3)
    Surrender body, mind, wealth, and everything to the Guru; obey the Order of His Will, and you will find Him.
    hukmu mMinhu gurU kyrw gwvhu scI bwxI ] (918-5, rwmklI, mÚ 3)
    Obey the Hukam of the Guru's Command, and sing the True Word of His Bani.
    khY nwnku suxhu sMqhu kiQhu AkQ khwxI ]9] (918-6, rwmklI, mÚ 3)
    Says Nanak, listen, O Saints, and speak the Unspoken Speech of the Lord. ||9||
    ****************************************************

    The above 'Tuks' are from 'Ananad Sahib ' ji. I shall be garteful If you can expand on the meaning of the above lines. The meaning Of unspoken speech in the context of this may kindly be clarified. You may also quote other lines of Granth sahib ji Maharaj.

    AS I can make out it has to have some relation with Naam / Amrit or some stage of spirituality. But I may be cent percent wrong in my efforts/estimates and understandings.
    Regards.
     
  14. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    There are 2 threads opened by Sikh80 on the same topic- I wonder why.
     
  15. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    I had ,today initaited only the other thread. It appears that this thread was activated by your good selves. I had not initiated it today. Another thread with identical name is different and the contents are also different. However, as per the message sent by you I should have named it with another name.
    I shall take care to name it differently,.
    Thanks and Regards,
     
  16. ekmusafir_ajnabi

    ekmusafir_ajnabi
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    Come along beloved saints, let us talk about the one who is indescribable
    Question : Talking about the indescribable, How can we find him?



    Answer : By surrendering your body, conscience and wealth (mind=your knowledge=your wealth) and subjugating to the will of the Guru.
    Remain in the Hukam(will) of the Guru sing the praises of the true one “The Sat”



    Nanak says , O saints talk about the one who is indescribable. (Think of the one creator that created you)

    ************************************************** **

    The use of the “unspoken speech” is an incorrect translation that diverts from Gurus message. The word is Akath – Jis de barey keha na ja sakey – indescribable. Also the word Chant is very often used in translations. Chanting is like shouting. We should use the word recite. Only Mantras in Hinduism are Chanted. We recite Bani and not Chant.
     
  17. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Thanks once again for clarifying the things.
    I would request you to kindly look into the thread 'Faq's about sikhi. It also contain some question that I had to add as I did not want to open a new thread.

    Regards.
     
  18. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    Sikh80 Ji,

    What title do you want to give to your new thread - I will change it for you.


    Santokh
     
  19. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Respected Namjap ji,
    You may kindly rename these as
    understanding gurbani -1
    understanding gurbani- 2
    etc.,
    It will be perfectly alright.
    Regards.
     
  20. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    understanding Gurbani-3

    mnu sbid mrY bUJY jnu soie ]1] (665-9, DnwsrI, mÚ 3)
    The mind is conquered through the Word of the Shabad; this is known to the Lord's humble servant. ||1||
    *****************************************

    The above statement has appeared in Granth sahib for more than once. Shall be grateful if the meaning is explained.It is a long pending request of many members.

    To the moderators.

    Ths thread need be shifted to Gurmat Vichaar. May kindly do the needful.
    happy
     
    #19 Sikh80, Jan 13, 2008
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2008
  21. ekmusafir_ajnabi

    ekmusafir_ajnabi
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    Re: understanding Gurbani-3




    The mind dies through the shabad(via the shabad) only he who realises it(experiences it) knows it.

    What does the Shabad say – immerse yourself in Naam. So you practice Naam and you shall conquer your mind.
     

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