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General Ultimate Reality / Truth, Conventional Reality /Truth, Illusion and Delusion.

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Archived_member14, Feb 14, 2011.

  1. Archived_member14

    Archived_member14
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    Ultimate Reality / Truth, Conventional Reality /Truth, Illusion and Delusion.

    Ultimate Reality:
    Ultimate here means in the ultimate, highest and undistorted sense. Or it means that which comes within the sphere of knowledge that is highest and ultimate. Reality is defined by the fact of it having characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause which forms the foundation of such knowledge.

    Conventional Truth:
    Product of the thought process whose status must be only as a ‘concept’. Concepts do not have any characteristic, function etc. which can be a basis for the kind of knowledge stated above. But any analysis must only happen by reference to yet other concepts and result in more of the same. There are of course concepts which point to ultimate realities and those which do not. Of the latter, there are those whose reference point is based on the experience through the five senses and those that are purely abstract. However in all cases, they are to be distinguished from the ultimate realities.

    Illusion:
    All concepts can be said to be illusions. However, some being the product of real experiences through the five senses, can be referred to without risk of becoming deluded. Indeed they are necessary to function in the world and also to learn about the Truth. However this does not make them anything but illusions.

    Delusion:
    When illusions are taken for being ultimately real, it becomes delusion.


    “The ‘round earth’ is concept, illusion, conventional reality but not a delusion.”

    I believe that there is more to say, however presently nothing comes to mind.
    But it’s your turn now Tejwant ji and Findingmyway ji, to comment.
     
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  3. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Confused ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Thanks for starting a new thread. But before I delve more into it, I have a couple of questions for you.

    1. Are these your own thoughts or have they been translated from someone else?

    2. If they are your thoughts, then please elaborate with details giving concrete examples, so I can understand what you are basing your conclusions on.

    3. If these thoughts are translated from someone else, then also please share with us the person's insights and how he/she came to the above conclusions.

    Thanks & regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  4. Archived_member14

    Archived_member14
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    Tejwant ji,




    I consulted an outside source only to determine the exact meaning of the word ‘ultimate’.
    Normally I wouldn’t initiate any thread since I never have a concrete idea about anything. My mind is forever scattered and the reason I like to comment in-text is because my attention span is as short as a goldfish’s. This of course is no obstruction to my ability to write long posts since in those cases, the ideas appear as I go along. I’d elaborate if you insist, but the reason I made this comment,

    “The ‘round earth’ is concept, illusion, conventional reality but not a delusion.”

    is so that you will comment on it and then I could say more.

    So what will it be, I start with elaborating on my last post or you comment on the statement about the ‘round earth’ and as we proceed I provide you with more information?

    Thanks and regards,
     
  5. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Confused ji perhaps if you include Example for each of the following by editing that first post then one would not have to search through many posts for quick reference,

    Example: Ultimate Reality
    Example: Conventional Truth
    Example: Illusion
    Example: Delusion:

    Then describe in each example how your learning applies to at a practical/spiritual/Karma level.

    Thank you.

    Metta, :)
     
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  6. Archived_member14

    Archived_member14
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    Ambarsaria ji,



    Thank you for suggesting this. I will not however go into Karma or anything else as yet, since it will take the discussion in another direction and the focus may then be lost.

    Below is an edition to the last post as you requested.

    Ultimate Reality:
    Ultimate here means in the ultimate, highest and undistorted sense. Or it means that which comes within the sphere of knowledge that is highest and ultimate. Reality is defined by the fact of it having characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause which forms the foundation of such knowledge.

    Ultimate realities are two, conditioned and unconditioned. The unconditioned refers to Nirvana which need not be discussed here. The conditioned realities are again two, mental phenomena and physical phenomena. The former is differentiated from the latter by being “that which experiences” and “that which does not experience anything”. Mental realities are again of two distinct and very different kinds, one consciousness and the other, mental factors.

    The relationship between Consciousness and mental factors is such that these two cannot arise one without the other, in other words, they condition each other in performing their particular functions and rise and fall away at the same time and experiencing the same object. And being that mental realities must arise at a material base, these two arise together at the same material base. Examples of consciousness are seeing, hearing, touching, tasting and smelling. Examples of mental factors are perception or memory, feeling, concentration, attention, intention, greed, hatred, ignorance, conceit, kindness, morality, wisdom, faith, mindfulness, compassion etc. etc.

    Physical realities include the four primary elements namely earth, wind, fire and water, the first three is experienced by touch as hardness / softness, motion / pressure and heat / cold. The water element however can only be experienced through the mind-door. Other physical phenomena are derived from these primary elements and include, sound, taste, smell, nutritive essence, visible object, space, the five ‘sense bases’ corresponding to the five senses, the heart base and more.

    The four primary elements condition one another and must arise with at least four of the derived elements, namely, taste, nutritive essence, visible object and smell. And this is how materiality is said to be “conditioned”.

    ***
    Conventional Truth:
    Product of the thought process whose status must be only as a ‘concept’. Concepts do not have any characteristic, function etc. which can be a basis for the kind of knowledge stated above. But any analysis must only happen by reference to yet other concepts and result in more of the same. There are of course concepts which point to ultimate realities and those which do not. Of the latter, there are those whose reference point is based on the experience through the five senses and those that are purely abstract. However in all cases, they are to be distinguished from the ultimate realities.

    Example of this is:
    The earth is round and it revolves around the sun situated in the solar system somewhere in one galaxy amongst an infinite number of galaxies in a universe about which we know very little. It is inhabited by humans and animals made possible because of the great variety of vegetation and good supply of water and minerals.

    ***
    Illusion:
    All concepts can be said to be illusions. However, some being the product of real experiences through the five senses, can be referred to without risk of becoming deluded. Indeed they are necessary to function in the world and also to learn about the Truth. However this does not make them anything but illusions.

    Example:
    Same as above seen from the standpoint of consideration that these are products of the thinking process.

    ***
    Delusion:
    When illusions are taken for being ultimately real, it becomes delusion.

    Example:
    When it is not acknowledged that a concept or conventional reality is illusion, taking it instead to be ultimately real, this then becomes a delusion. This is product of wrong understanding / view. The consequence of which is that a relationship between ‘self’ and the world out there is conceived of, one which tends either to towards a materialist / anihilationist view point or an eternalistic one. One may think oneself a product of chance, who at death will become obliterated. Or else think that one is part of the totality of existence whose birth and death is part of how all this works, with nothing added and nothing lost.

    Metta.
     
  7. Archived_member11

    Archived_member11
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    Pandit speak... What words can describe something as simple as the beauty of your childs small hands? You talk of ultimate reality as if you are so familiar. Guru shows us these things but we all think and talk too much.
     
  8. Archived_member14

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    Jyot Singh ji,



    The purpose of this particular discussion is to come to determine what are the reality / non-reality of such things as those that you refer to, namely beauty, child, small and hands. And if I may be allowed to continue talking too much, and at the risk of sidetracking, this is what I think.

    Child and the smallness of its hands are ideas conceived of based on particular set of experiences through the five senses and the mind. These experiences and the objects of the five senses are what exists in reality, but only when they have arisen, not before and not after they fell away instantly.

    Beauty is a conventional value some reflecting the reality of particular kinds of experiences, but mostly based on perversion of perception on the part of the individuals concerned. When the object is a concept as in a “child’s small hands”, the idea of beauty here is associated with something that lasts in time. This is perversion of both perception and consciousness, in terms of permanence.

    When there is attachment, the perversion in terms of beauty, permanence and happiness is at the level of perception and consciousness. However if one thought somehow that a child’s hand is particularly beautiful as compared to say a young woman’s hands, this may be associated with ideas such as that of the “innocence and purity of a child.” It is here that delusion sets in and along with perception and consciousness there is perversion of ‘view’ as well.
     
  9. Archived_member11

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    If we would all rise above the 5 senses then all these words would not be needed.More descriptions and analysis of meaning doesn't give meaning to something. We can go on forever or we can try to experience. The choice is ours. You and I on the internet speaking of ultimate reality is a comical thing. Will we find ultimate reality :interestedsingh::interestedmunda: here? Doubtful. All our typing and no-direction thinking is just entertainment to keep our minds away from the reality we supposedly wish to find.
     
  10. Archived_member14

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    Jyot Singh ji,


    Jyot:
    If we would all rise above the 5 senses then all these words would not be needed. More descriptions and analysis of meaning doesn't give meaning to something.

    C: So long as you continue to only think and analyze but fail to understand what is being stated, yes it would have no meaning. While mental and physical phenomena are being pointed at and described, there are mental and physical phenomena arising and falling away as part of your experience. Wisdom would have it that these are acknowledged as being what they are. Your comment therefore reflects your own unwillingness to see what is actually going on, and this is ignorance.

    That you make a statement about the need to rise above the 5 senses while continuing to encourage ignorance of what does go on from moment to moment through these same 5 senses, is indication of your being driven by an ideal. And the solution to this is simply, the acknowledgement of the ‘thinking’ arisen!

    Jyot:
    We can go on forever or we can try to experience.

    C: Well, is there no experience while there is thinking and typing e-mails? But I think that you are not talking about the need to come to ‘understand’ experiences, but something else altogether.

    Jyot:
    The choice is ours.

    C: And while you hold on to this illusion, an infinite instances of mental and physical phenomena pass by, including those that performed their functions while the illusion was held, none of which was known and continue not to be taken into consideration.

    Jyot:
    You and I on the internet speaking of ultimate reality is a comical thing.

    C: I’d be interested to hear *one* thing you do not find comical to communicate about.

    Jyot:
    Will we find ultimate reality here? Doubtful.

    C: If you’ve been hearing, you’d realize that there is only *now* that any ultimate reality is known.

    Jyot:
    All our typing and no-direction thinking is just entertainment to keep our minds away from the reality we supposedly wish to find.

    C: Would you now admit that this may apply only to yourself?
     

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