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Two questions on sikhism

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Amardeep, Feb 13, 2006.

  1. Amardeep

    Amardeep
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    Sath shri akal ji

    what does Sri Guru Gobind Singh jee mean in zafarma when he writes
    " I warred with the idol-worshipping hill chiefs,
    For, I am the breaker of idols and they their worshippers. (95)"

    arent we sikhs suppose to respect and honour other religions? then why does he say that he smashes the hindu statues of Ganesh, vishnu etc..

    and the other questions:
    i was raised in the belief that all my muslim and christian friends would also have an equal chance of goin to paradise, the same way as me.
    i found this verse:
    Page 142, Line 8
    ਰਾਹ ਦੋਵੈ ਇਕੁ ਜਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ ਸਿਝਸੀ ॥
    राह दोवै इकु जाणै सोई सिझसी ॥
    raah dovai ik jaanai so-ee sijhsee.
    One who recognizes that all spiritual paths lead to the One shall be emancipated.
    Guru Nanak Dev



    but then i also found these verses on http://www.whyichosesikhism.com/?p=answers&ans=4

    where it says that only sikhs will enter paradise..

    Without naam, no one can find God.

    Translation:O Nanak, without the Naam, the Name of the Lord, no one is liberated

    Without the Guru, the Naam cannot be obtained.


    read the link if you want the whole answer, and see why i am confused :S

    sath shri akal


    i hope i am not offending anyone, and i appologise for my english.. i have only been living in the west for 2 years..
     
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  3. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    It is a well known fact that Guru nanak Ji Sahib totally REJECTED the Hidnu Janeau and other beliefs liek idols, caste, etc.

    BUT this FACT didnt stop Guru Teg Bahadur Ji from Catching hold of the Brahmins of Kahmir arm..and courting DEATH in delhi to assert their RIGHT to Freedom of Religion. Guru Teg bahdur Ji being the same Nank jyot also didnt bleeive in the Janueau, caste etc of Hinduism...BUT he defended their right to be Hindus which Aurengzeb wanted to DESTROY.

    In Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Zafarnama, Guru Ji is asserting what actually happened. Guur Ji DID NOT attack the Hindu rajahs FIRST..they attacked the peaceful GURU..and even Called upon the SAME AURENGZEB who was killing Hindus by the thousands DAILY and breaking mandirs etc FOR HELP against the son of Guru Teg Bahadur Ji who had given his head for their religion.

    Sikhism doesnt beleive in Idols and caste etc....but not one MANDIR was ever attacked or Destroyed by any SIKH in any time or country. This si also a FACT - undeniable by history.

    2. The "GURU" in this context is NOT EXCLUSIVE to the SIKH GURUS. It is "GURU"...in the context of one's own religion...and the NAAM of Gurbani is NOT EXCLUSIVE to Sikhism either... the Naam Hari Hari, Narayan, Gobind, Murali, etc etc etc are all Naam. ALLAH is also NAAM.

    There are several lines in Gurbani where a HINDU is told to be a GOOD HINDU...and a MUSLIM is taught how to be a GOOD MUSLIM. This is also why the writings of several HINDU and MUSLIM Bhagats are included in GURBANI and accorded the SAME STATUS as Sikh GURUS. No other world religious text has this uniqueness.

    This si why NO Tuk of GURBANI says: CONVERT TO SIKHI for salvation.
    NO GURBANI ever says: There is NO Salvation IF you dont CONVERT to SIKHI.
    There is NO Gurbani that declares: SIKHI is the One and ONLY WAY to GOD.

    IF anyone interprets that way..it is MISREPRESENTATION and out of context. Sikhi is UNIVERSAL..for all..and Sikhi RESPECTS all religions and faiths...wherever there is criticism..it is criticism of NOT the RELIGION..but the WRONGS of the Followers. Gurbani declares...VED KATEB KAHIO MATT CHHUTTHEH..CHOTTAHH JO NA BICHAREH... the Vedas and the Kitab are NOT FALSE..false are those followers who DONT "BICHAR" study them and follow their true teachings... what could be clearer than that.

    I hope that helps.

    Jarnail Singh Gyani
     
  4. Amardeep

    Amardeep
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    thank u very much jarnail ji.

    but i did'n quite get the answar to the first one.

    Sri GuruGobind Singh ji says that he is the destroyer of idols....what does he mean about that?

    u can read the zafarma at http://sikhs.org/transl5.htm
    at line 95
     
  5. Hukum Kaur

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    Cherdikala!
    Guru Gobin Singh Ji also said, (sorry I have no direct quote)
    ...Worship me, and you will go to/be in, Hell.
    He recognised the danger of idols, and what happnes when a religion becomes but symboles. People can get addicted to the symboles and the experiences of visions. This is spiritual materialism. When Guru Gobind Singh Ji destroyes idols, he liberates us even from himslef, and draws us closer to the formless. Sat Naam, Hukum Kaur-
     
  6. devinesanative

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    Gurunanak did not formally created any religion like Sikh religion , as the present day sikhs percieve it .

    The way the Gurunanak said that line at that time it did not meant for the present day sikhs only but for any one .

    If a muslim or Christian is a true learner , and keeps of progressing towards the spiritual elevation , then also they are Sikhs still being Muslims or Christians .
     
  7. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh.

    Absolutley correct bhen ji Hukam kaur Jio.

    The Formless Waheguru of GURU NANAK JI as described in Ek Oankaar satnam.... CANNOT possibly be "contained" in an IDOL.

    Thus Guru nanak ji was the First to "break the idols" so as to speak...and Guru Gobind Singh Ji is repeating this philosphy of Sikhi-Gurmatt.

    We break our own IDOLS..not the ones the Hindus have asthapan in their Mandirs...that is their RIGHT.

    The MUSLIMS are also "idol breakers"...but Under the Mughals and especially Aurengzeb...and most recently under the Taliban in Afghanistan...they mistakenly took this to mean breaking other people's IDOLS..which is NOT what ISLAM means either.

    Jarnail singh gyani
     
  8. Amardeep

    Amardeep
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    so you giany singh ji is saying that it is not ment literaly, and it means that they are breaking the idols, by showing people how useless they are?
     
  9. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Yes veer jio,

    in my humble opinion that is what i meant. As far as i know Guru Ji Never attacked any mandir and Never broke any idols....not like the mughals, the khiljis, the lodhis, and the afghan invaders Ahmad shah durani, abdali etc etc.

    Second point to note is that the writings of Guru gobind Singh ji are heavily adulterated by later writers..not like Gurbani in the Guru Garnth ji. We cannot take literally much attributed to Guru Ji....it is always wise to take the TOUCHSTONE of GURBANI to check out any other writings.

    Thanks

    Jarnail singh gyani
     
  10. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
    Dear all!

    Idols are symbols made of earthly materials.

    One transcends these symbols with true Naam.

    This is what I understood from breaking the idols to recognize God completely.

    God is Nirgun and Sargun both.

    Realizing God in both ways is knowing HIM as ONE complete Truth.


    Balbir Singh
     
  11. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh.

    I agree completely Balbir Ji. Khalsa Ji beleives in Waheguru the Formless Nirguna nd Sargun. Yes.

    Jarnail singh gyani
     
  12. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    There are several lines in Gurbani where a HINDU is told to be a GOOD HINDU...and a MUSLIM is taught how to be a GOOD MUSLIM. This is also why the writings of several HINDU and MUSLIM Bhagats are included in GURBANI and accorded the SAME STATUS as Sikh GURUS. No other world religious text has this uniqueness

    gyani ji if a muslim is following sggs then how could he be a good muslim in the eyes of islam.it is written in sggs that circumsion is bad,pilgrimages and fasts are useless.so a good muslim in the eyes of islam is
    who follows quran.you cannot follow quran and sggs at a time
     
  13. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji KI fateh.


    Gurbani is Dhur Ki Bani...at the time of Guru naanak ji, the BOTH religions of the day..Hinduism and Islam were gone "bad" due to JUST EMPTY RITUALS... Guru ji doesnt see anything intrinsically "bad" in Hinduism or Islam..in fact it is declared that Hindu is ANNAH (BLIND) due to his propoensity to just total beleif in RITUALS and IDOLS, whereas the Vedas and Simtis do contain a lot of good religious knowledge - but the Hindu disregarded all that good knowledge and just stuck to Empty Rituals like fasting bathing etc.
    The Muslim of the day si called KANNA (one eyd) because although He beleives in the ONE FORMLESS GOD..he has lost his other eye due to becoming BIGOTED, FANATIC and cruel and injust and corrupt - all things that are AGAINST what is taught in Koran.

    What SGGS says about FASTING/CIRCUMCISION etc is FOR the SIKHS..we are NOt to put any faith in these as help to attain GOD. A "good muslim" need not follow that advise. He can go on fasting, getting circumcised and going to hajj etc..as long as he also follows the JUSTICE and FAIRNESS advocated in the Koran.That will make him a GYANI MUSLIM..one like Sheikh Farid..Bhagat kabir, Mian mir...and many others so close to Sikh history. Sheikh farid also went to Maseet five times a day, maybe he also fasted the Ramdhaan, went to hajj etc..and his GURBANI is also in the SGGS !!

    so oil and water can be mixed !!!

    The concluding part of the tuk is Dohaan te GYANI Siyaana...the person who has GYAAN of GOD..and this Gyaani can be Muslim Hindu, Christian etc.

    I will post the complete shabad later.

    Jarnail singh
     
  14. devinesanative

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    Why Idols were used in the past ?

    Why people later on made it a ritual ?

    To understand why idols were used in the past .


    1. I would suggest you to read the story of Ekalavya . And you will find that it was purely on psychological emotional grounds , and Ekalavya had that shradha towards guru dronoacharya despite being rejected.


    But as usual people believe that the idol of dronoacharya spelled magic on ekalvya and he became great archer.


    Here , People imitated blindly and made it a ritual .


    2. Now , coming to the modern real life story of guy whose father was a blind man but to excel in his sports he used to bring his father to stadium .

    Later when the day of Game Came , but at that time his father died , but still he played well . And when he was asked about his excellent performance on that day , he said his father was sitting there in the stadium watching him play the game.


    Now another example how people imitate and make rituals .


    The story of sati , though this may be mythological but still it is worth readinng ..

    The Sati jumped into the pyre , because her father insulted her husband .

    But , later on people made it a hard and fast rule to make sati every woman .


    There is also a story about great guy ..


    Once a man visited to him for some sage advice . So , he said what sage advice should I give you . But the man insisted , that he must dispel him some sage advice.

    So, heres what he did , He asked his wife to bring the Shud Ghee , her wife brought the shud Ghee and he then mixed it with the clay , and said to the other man this is the sage advice .

    But , when the man went to him home and repeated the same , his wife started fighting with him .


    So, again he tried to imitate...
     
  15. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Dear Veer Ji,

    Here are a few Tuks from Gurbani regarding this topic. It si a random collection but if you look through carefully you will notice Guru Ji has his own opinions on what a Good Muslim/Hindu should be. This is not to be confused with what MUSLIMS today beleive a good muslim to be - To Muslims today..shias are NOT muslims, Qadianis are NOT muslims etc...this is normal.

    read on:
    • Page140 Line 18 Raag Maajh: Guru Nanak Dev

      srm suMniq sIlu rojw hohu muslmwxu ]
      saram sunnath seel rojaa hohu musalamaan ||
      Make modesty your circumcision, and good conduct your fast. In this way, you shall be a true Muslim.
    • 2. Page141 Line 1 Raag Maajh: Guru Nanak Dev

      hku prwieAw nwnkw ausu sUAr ausu gwie ]
      hak paraaeiaa naanakaa ous sooar ous gaae ||
      : To take what rightfully belongs to another, is like a Muslim eating pork, or a Hindu eating beef.
    • 3. Page141 Line 5 Raag Maajh: Guru Nanak Dev

      krxI klmw AwiK kY qw muslmwxu sdwie ]
      karanee kalamaa aakh kai thaa musalamaan sadhaae ||
      Repeat the prayer of good deeds, and then, you may call yourself a Muslim.
    • 4. Page141 Line 10 Raag Maajh: Guru Nanak Dev

      muslmwxu khwvxu musklu jw hoie qw muslmwxu khwvY ]
      musalamaan kehaavan musakal jaa hoe thaa musalamaan kehaavai ||
      It is difficult to be called a Muslim; if one is truly a Muslim, then he may be called one.
    • 5. Page141 Line 11 Raag Maajh: Guru Nanak Dev

      hoie musilmu dIn muhwxY mrx jIvx kw Brmu cukwvY ]
      hoe musalim dheen muhaanai maran jeevan kaa bharam chukaavai ||
      Becoming a true Muslim, a disciple of the faith of Mohammed, let him put aside the delusion of death and life.
    • 6. Page141 Line 12 Raag Maajh: Guru Nanak Dev

      qau nwnk srb jIAw imhrMmiq hoie q muslmwxu khwvY ]1]
      tho naanak sarab jeeaa miharanmath hoe th musalamaan kehaavai ||1||
      And when, O Nanak, he is merciful to all beings, only then shall he be called a Muslim.
    • 7. Page150 Line 3 Raag Maajh: Guru Nanak Dev

      nwie invwjw nwqY pUjw nwvin sdw sujwxI ]
      naae nivaajaa naathai poojaa naavan sadhaa sujaanee ||
      After bathing, the Muslims recite their prayers, and after bathing, the Hindus perform their worship services. The wise always take cleansing baths. ||1||
    • 8. Page237 Line 12 Raag Gaurhee: Guru Arjan Dev

      jwiq vrn qurk Aru ihMdU ]
      jaath varan thurak ar hindhoo ||
      Social classes, races, Muslims and Hindus;
    • 9. Page340 Line 7 Raag Gaurhee Poorbee: Saint Kabir

      qurk qrIkiq jwnIAY ihMdU byd purwn ]
      thurak thareekath jaaneeai hindhoo baedh puraan ||
      The Muslim knows the Muslim way of life; the Hindu knows the Vedas and Puraanas.
    • 10. Page417 Line 10 Raag Aasaa: Guru Nanak Dev

      ieknw vKq KuAweIAih iekn@w pUjw jwie ]
      eikanaa vakhath khuaaeeahi eikanhaa poojaa jaae ||
      The Muslims have lost their five times of daily prayer, and the Hindus have lost their worship as well.
    • 11. Page418 Line 3 Raag Aasaa: Guru Nanak Dev

      iek ihMdvwxI Avr qurkwxI BitAwxI TkurwxI ]
      eik hindhavaanee avar thurakaanee bhattiaanee thakuraanee ||
      The Hindu women, the Muslim women, the Bhattis and the Rajputs
    • 12. Page465 Line 17 Raag Aasaa: Guru Nanak Dev

      muslmwnw isPiq srIAiq piV piV krih bIcwru ]
      musalamaanaa sifath sareeath parr parr karehi beechaar ||
      The Muslims praise the Islamic law; they read and reflect upon it.
    • 13. Page466 Line 5 Raag Aasaa: Guru Nanak Dev

      imtI muslmwn kI pyVY peI kuim@Awr ]
      mittee musalamaan kee paerrai pee kumihaaar ||
      The clay of the Muslim's grave becomes clay for the potter's wheel.
    • 14. Page471 Line 15 Raag Aasaa: Guru Nanak Dev

      DoqI itkw qY jpmwlI Dwnu mlyCW KweI ]
      dhhothee ttikaa thai japamaalee dhhaan malaeshhaan khaaee ||
      They wear their loin cloths, apply ritual frontal marks to their foreheads, and carry their rosaries, but they eat food with the Muslims.
    • 15. Page471 Line 16 Raag Aasaa: Guru Nanak Dev

      AMqir pUjw pVih kqybw sMjmu qurkw BweI ]
      anthar poojaa parrehi kathaebaa sanjam thurakaa bhaaee ||
      O Siblings of Destiny, you perform devotional worship indoors, but read the Islamic sacred texts, and adopt the Muslim way of life.
    • 16. Page472 Line 1 Raag Aasaa: Guru Nanak Dev

      nIl vsqR pihir hovih prvwxu ]
      neel vasathr pehir hovehi paravaan ||
      Wearing blue robes, they seek the approval of the Muslim rulers.
    • Page472 Line 1 Raag Aasaa: Guru Nanak Dev

      mlyC Dwnu ly pUjih purwxu ]
      malaeshh dhhaan lae poojehi puraan ||
    Accepting bread from the Muslim rulers, they still worship the Puraanas.
    18. Page472 Line 1 Raag Aasaa: Guru Nanak Dev

    ABwiKAw kw kuTw bkrw Kwxw ]
    abhaakhiaa kaa kuthaa bakaraa khaanaa ||
    They eat the meat of the goats, killed after the Muslim prayers are read over them,
    Some of the things wrong with the religions of the day...and IF Guru ji were to write Gurbani today..they will see a lot WRONG with the "sikhs" of Today...a lot of Sikhi today is NOT in accordance with GURBANI...so there you have it...a GOOD SIKH according to Gurbani would probably sound a bit farfetched to todays' sikhs as well !!

    Jarnail Singh Gyani
     
  16. etinder

    etinder
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    very aptly put gyaniji
    gurufateh
     
  17. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    What SGGS says about FASTING/CIRCUMCISION etc is FOR the SIKHS..we are NOt to put any faith in these as help to attain GOD

    wjkk
    wjkf

    gyani ji if guru granth sahib is the word of god then what is written in guru granth sahib is for everyone not only for sikhs
     
  18. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    gyani ji i agree with it what is defination of good muslim written in sggs
    is different from what it is written in quran.so a good muslim according to sggs cannot be a good muslim according to quran.so a muslim following sggs is a sikh
     
  19. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    YES. You can take it as that. IN Fact some Sikhs ( mostly our veers in AKJ ) do firmly beleive that ALL the writers in Guru Granth Ji are in fact SIKHS....and i agree because after all a "SIKH" is a LEARNER on the Path to Waheguru/Allah/God....and we are all learners...in one way or other. The ONLY Perfect entity is WAHEGURU/ALLAH/GOD..

    Chardeekalla always

    Jarnail Singh Gyani
     
  20. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji KI Fateh.

    On the Shabads that Guru Ji wrote about "good Muslims" and Good Hindus...

    People ask....Are the Gurbani quotes in line
    with what is written in the Koran? If you take the
    shabads which define a Muslim and then compare these
    with the definitions of what a Muslim is in the Koran
    then you will realise that what the Gurus are defining
    and preaching is Gurmat values to a Muslim and not
    Koranic values. Guru Ji is Not at all concerned with the Koran or its values.

    We can thus see very clearly that Guru Nanak Dev ji has specifically corrected the
    five pillars of Islamic thought: Declaring of faith,
    prayer, almsgiving, the fast of Ramadan, and
    pilgrimage to Mecca (Shahabah, Salat/Nimaz,Zakat,Sawm,
    Hajj) and shown what really should be done about
    these. Same goes about Hindus practices. They have
    been CORRECTED. We must place things in true perspective.

    Jarnail singh gyani
     

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