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Yogism Turbans and White Robes: The latest Yoga Craze is Kundalini

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by harmanpreet singh, Jul 7, 2013.

  1. harmanpreet singh

    harmanpreet singh India
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    #1 harmanpreet singh, Jul 7, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 8, 2013
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  3. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    The thread is moved to Interfaith Dialogues/Yoga.

    Kundalini yoga "as practiced by Yogi Bhajan" is not new. How did it become the "latest craze?" A few actresses in Hollywood are meeting with a famed yogini. That does not constitute a craze.

    Thanks for sharing the link because we may get some good discussions going based on it.
     
  4. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    The Kundalini lot under the guise of Sikhi has moved to Latin/South America where meditation is their main sales pitch. In fact they have done sessions of meditation with the police departments of many cities in Argentina, Chile, Brasil and others. This is nothing but a money making ponzi scheme, sadly in the name of fake Sikhi. These are the "Angrezi Derawalas".
     
  5. muddymick

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    Tejwant ji,

    can I ask what
    I think I understand but I am a little confused by the use of 'Dera' are you just relating it to camp or settlement or is it in relation to another sect?
    I wondered because not all 'Gori' Sikhs are members of sects to my knowledge?
    So I presumed it related to a particularly insidious sect?
    (by the way my very limited understanding of Panjabi is embarrassing)

    Thanks.
     
  6. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Muddymick ji,


    Guru Fateh.


    First my request to you is to quote the whole post when you ask questions not in a segmentised manner because it loses the whole gist of the post. This is not the first time it has happened. You pick and choose little phrases for the reasons known only to you. After quoting the whole post, it will be easier for you and the one you are addressing to what you understand in it and what you do not by expressing it in your own words. Then the responding will be more meaningful.

    Let me try to explain it as much I can.

    What I meant was that these converts into "Sikhi" via Yogi Bhajan and it is called Sikh Dharma is not actually Sikhi. They practice many non Sikhi things like Kundalini Yoga in the guise of Sikhi and the majority of them are European descent White are called Angrez in Punjabi slang.

    So, this was the comparison between the Derawalas in India who are raking money from the ignorant using Sikhi look as their cash crop and these Yogi Bhajan's followers who are doing the same thing with the help of Kundalini yoga and Sikhi look to mint money from the foreign countries selling meditations to them.

    I hope it is clear now.

    Tejwant Singh
     
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    #5 Tejwant Singh, Jul 8, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2013
  7. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    I am a kundalini student and I must say that it has nothing to do with sikhi except the mantras like 'waheguru' and 'satnaam' that may be used.
    The yogi was a Sikh by religion and through the yoga he converted or transformed many students to sikhi.
    So far, no one has asked or dug into my pockets for more cash and no one has tried to sell me golden temple products or anything else associated with the yogi's empire.

    Yoga is exactly what it is, it is the art of combining mind, body and soul to attain a level of well being and control.

    Problems arise when people try to attach sikhi to it and try and make it gurmat.
    However, it is not manmat or anti-gurmat in my opinion. It is an activity that I enjoy along with the class environment involved.
    Me being a Sikh or not would not affect the benefits and joys that I get from this yoga.
     
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  8. Tejwant Singh

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    Lucky ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Exactly the point I am trying to make.

    Yes, Yogi Bhajan did have a Sikhi look, as do Nirankari Sat Guru, Radasoami head, Nanaksar, Gobind Sadan and many others like them, and none of them have to do anything with Sikhi. Sikhi look is used as a selling brand. 3HO, The Sikh Dharma is just one more cult which has nothing to do with Sikhi but Sikhi identity is being exploited by them in their yoga sales. The same is true in the others.

    Do not consider yourself fortunate because you have not been peddled these brands. There is another reason behind it. The fact of the matter is that the products sold under "The Golden Temple" brand do not belong to 3HO anymore. They have been sold to another company. Most of those "Sikhs" that Yogi Bhajan converted and managed to peddle these products cut their hair after his demise and hence went back to their original pre-Yogi look. There were lots of law suits that followed this ugly war.

    If you had been doing Yoga in one of these classes during Yogi's time, then you would have had been coerced to buy these products.

    The Yogi Chai brand name has lately been awarded by the judge to Bibi Inderjit Kaur Puri, late Yogi Bhajan's wife. There was a dispute on that too and she has sold its rights to General Mills, the food multinational.

    Our SGPC is very weak. No one should be allowed to sell any product under the brand of Golden Temple without giving royalty to the Sikh authority. The name should have been registered trademark of the Sikh community. It is the same thing as selling products under the name of The Vatican.

    That is not according to Sikhi but according to Hinduism. Many Sikhs do Yoga as an exercise. The judge in Arizona Oked its use in the Arizona schools as a form of exercise just a few weeks ago.

    No Sikh has any problem as long as Sikhi is not used as its sales pitch.

    On a side note, Bikram Choudhury, the founder of the Yoga Empire, Bikram Yoga is being sued for sexual harassment. To put it mildly, exploitation at its best in the name of Body, Mind & Soul.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/27/us/bikram-yoga-founder-is-sued-by-former-student.html?_r=0

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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    #7 Tejwant Singh, Jul 8, 2013
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  9. muddymick

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    Tejwant ji,

    Just to get this clear you expect me to re-post the entirety of a post?
    Like this...

    Because you think
    when done
    Like this.

    Presumably you don't think people are capable of looking back at the thread to contextualise?


    Of course I pick and choose as to what is relevant to my understanding, that's called discernment.
    That are contextualised by the questions regarding them.
    If you don't understand why I ask something or require to know why not just ask.

    Sorry, this seems a little confused to me! Are you suggesting here that after quoting the entirety of the post, it will enable more clarity for both me and the person being quoted if I then give a full explanation of what I do and what I do not understand in that post and what I require clarification of in a post?

    Wouldn't that be very lengthy?

    It would seem much lengthier than requesting clarification of words, phrases or sentences that I do not understand.

    In fact It hasn't appeared to be an issue that you have picked up on regarding others posts?
    ( I would be more than happy to furnish numerous examples of my alleged contentious posting style exhibited by other posters)


    I do not concur.

    :peacesign:
     
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  10. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Muddymick ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    I have no idea what is so difficult about it. You can post the whole post or into segments and ask questions regarding the parts you have any queries about. Not pick apart some phrases from the whole post for me or any other member to explain to you as you did. If you check what you posted to me makes no sense the way you have picked and chose.

    This practice of putting the whole posts into segments and responding to them you have done it when you learnt the way to put them into quotes.

    We are here to have a conversation which can not happen if some phrases are thrown to the responder. Please recheck what you asked me and you will realise what I am saying. Atleast, the thought should be expressed if only one part is being asked, not words like Dera, Angrezi etc etc on their own.

    Sometimes the original post is 3 to 4 pages back.

    Do you expect for the person to go back page by page to find the original post?

    This makes no sense for any practical reason.

    I have no idea what is there not to concur about.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  11. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Please let us not digress from the topic of the thread.


    There is no rule to re-post an entire reply as a complete quote. There is the expectation that individuals will not twist the words of someone else by selective quoting. When someone, e..g, Tejwant Singh, requests his/her entire comment be reposted, they ask because they do perceive that their words have been taken out of context intentionally. If you value conversation with meaning, then you revisit your comments and try to fix any impression that you have misquoted or distorted someone's words. That indeed may involve re-posting the complete reply.
     
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  12. muddymick

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    spnadmin,
    If I had intentionally taken words out of context or twisted them maybe I would have understood the request quicker.
    I fail to understand why Tejwant ji, didn't just say this?
    As my post was directly underneath the alleged misquoted post I would have to be rather silly to try and decontextualize it. As one would hardly need to travel far to see it in it's entirety.

    In short the posts where next to each other openly comparable for all and any to see.

    I really fail to see the issue....sorry!

    Neither slight nor malice was intended.
     
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  13. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Please do not take my comments personally muddymick ji. I was outlining a way for the future to prevent misunderstanding.
     
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  14. Ishna

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    Lucky Singh ji, how do you feel about non-Sikhs using words like Waheguru, Satnaam, and some shabads as chants and mantras out of the context of Sikhi? Are you offended by it at all or do you have a rationalisation for it?

    It is part of the Kundalini culture that makes me uncomfortable, together with people who get confused to think the yoga is required as part of Sikhi, and the way that it was apparently Yogi Bhajan who decided to give "Kaur" as a name for women.
     
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    #13 Ishna, Jul 9, 2013
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  15. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    One has to note first of all that 3HO and Sikh Dharma (in its avatars as International, or Worldwide, or just Sikh Dharma) are 2 different entities within the movement begun by Yogi Bhajan. Their articles of incorporation are separate. 3HO is considered primarily an educational organization, under which Kundalini yoga is featured in many forms. One not need be a Sikh to be a student or teacher of yoga within 3HO. Sikh Dharma (whether known as Sikh Dharma International or Sikh Dharma Worldwide) represents the spiritual/religious entity. In 2012, Sikh Dharma International and Sikh Dharma Worldwide resolved ongoing legal disputes and became one organization. The two organizations now hail under the one banner of Sikh Dharma Worldwide and are located at this one web address http://sikhdharma.org

    The vision and mission of the previous Sikh Dharma Worldwide, prior to November 2012,
    was as follows

    Sikh Dharma International does not at this time publish its vision and mission statements at its web site, as far as I could tell.

    After the two organizations became one, Sikh Dharma International announced that various pages of the Sikh Dharma Worldwide would merge with sikhdharma.org and various other Sikh Dharma International sites.

    The merger was a business decision, rising from litigation in court not a decision based on religious beliefs. Now what about the connection between Sikh dharma and Kundalini yogi?

    Searching the term "Sikh dharma and yoga" one navigates to this page http://www.sikhdharma.org/search/node/Sikh dharma and yoga?page=3
    No explicit connection is made between Sikhism and Yoga by Sikh Dharma International.

    Nonethelss, before the corporate merger into 1 entity, Sikh Dharma Worldwide made the connection very explicitly on this page: http://sikhdharmaworldwide.org/about/yoga-and-sikh-dharma

    Analyze the content of the page and you may agree with me that the place of yoga within Sikhi is described in a very contradictory way. In some paragraphs yoga is described as a "fruitless" way to God. In other paragraphs yoga is described as a way to nurture a union with God. Various shabads in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji may have been interpreted in a self-serving way. Also presented is the idea that Guru Gobind Singh was an incarnation of a yogi whose plea to escape reincarnation through penitence was ignored because his destiny was to become 10th Nanak.

    I could not see that the page, Sikh dharma and yoga, had been merged with any of the SDI pages, at the Sikh Dharma International Site. Does that signal a clean break with the traditions preached by Yogi Bhajan? l hesitate to come to closure on that question. One can see from the Glossary associated with the site that many concepts from yoga and vedic traditions are part of their dharmic discourse.

    http://www.sikhdharma.org/pages/glossary

    The web page, Sikh dharma and yoga, has value quite apart from its standing with the new parent company. All the arguments used to promote yoga within a Sikh framework are included there. This sets up a situation where rebuttals are just straightforward and simple.

    And like one of our other active threads on the wives of Guru Gobind Singh, the presence of starkly contradictory information on the Internet, in seemingly authoritative places, can only create confusion.
     
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    #14 spnadmin, Jul 9, 2013
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  16. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    In all honesty I don't get uncomfortable with them using waheguru or satnaam or any other mantras.
    In my class of mainly women and two men it consists of students from a variety of backgrounds including a white French, quite a few white Canadian and Americans, south American couple, one hindi/Punjabi(not too sure?) indian and myself.
    Majority of these have done various other forms of yoga before they came to kundalini so they are not in it for yogi bhajan's sikhi attachments.
    I was actually very surprised that they all knew what waheguru and satnaam meant. Along with these we also use Gobind, hari, aad Shakti namo, ang sang waheguru...etc.

    As far as I know, I and the instructor are the only one's that are Sikh but religion has never been mentioned or discussed. There is often talk about the yogi's kriyas and quotes.
    The students are all quite into meditation and most of them have come into this yoga from others due to the meditative aspects from what I gather.
    I sometimes get the feeling that meditation is an essential pre-requisite that no one mentions.
    I don't believe that any of them think that I may be at advantage because I am of Sikh faith, although they know I get the pronunciations more correct and accurate at first attempts.

    I actually joined this yoga for it's mind over body control as a means of therapy and well being in my circumstances. It was recommended by my personal trainer who is not a Sikh and doesn't know to much about sikhi either.
    Previously I had always attached 3HO with it and was under the impression that it all came as part of the package.

    Me being aware of the association of most mantras with sikhi is just an advantage just like jujitsu and twae kon do may contain sacred names of moves and postures that may mean more to natives with ancient interests and associations.(the way I see it!!)
    Personally, the only thing that I may think when we may say 'waheguru' is that I know it means a WHOLE lot more to me and my personal simran.
    This I don't expect anyone to understand in the same way that I do. Maybe for everyone else it has different personal values but at the end of the day it is the SAME God within and among us all. It is still the same Antarjami and inner knower within us. Only the affects, alignment and personal relationship vary between us.

    So, No I haven't yet got offended if they use a gurbani mantra with a posture or kriya. I say 'Yet' because I may find something in the future more difficult to accept but this has not happened for me as yet.
    I think that all students are also aware that in yoga it is not the mantras or the full physical extensions that are important but it is actually the BREATHING that is the core part of yoga maneuvers.
    The breathing comes first, then the movement and then the mantra.

    I was also a dancer for many years and in dancing it was always the music/beat and body rhythm, then the movement and breathing and then lastly the 'count' of steps/time or otherwise before the change. Although, all these steps becoming one is what made the whole dance.
    You could also say that the counts are like the mantra in that they help keep the activity going where eventually you let go and let the music let you carry on or the mantra.

    I have only been doing it for a few months yet and I haven't done any other yoga previously, so I can't really judge or compare it to any other specific yoga as such. But I haven't found it too attached to the 3HO circle which seems to cling quite closely to sikhi as we all know.
    And there are students who are not Sikhs that have been doing it for a few years continuously. For them it is a pure health and well being activity twice a week with no religion strings attached.

    I can now actually see this yoga as a pure yoga itself with no relationship to 3HO, because there are many students and members that are quite independent. I think it's the 3HO correlation that creeps in and attaches itself to sikhi which gives a lot of incorrect messages.
    Maybe it's because I don't attend a 3HO or kundalini centre but standard yoga/dance halls that are hired by various yoga instructors.
     
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    #15 Luckysingh, Jul 9, 2013
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  17. chazSingh

    chazSingh Ireland
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    in my opinion, Yogi Bhajan provided a way for many lost souls to connect spiritually in a way they could grasp, introduced to them so that many would come and feel it's healing shakti...that in itself was amazing...just to uplift many people out of the mess they were in...this is a great seva in itself.

    Many though fell in love with Sikhi, their yearning was stronger...a small spirtual awakening of consciousness wasnt enough for them...they yearned for more.

    There is a guy in the U.K called Jason Chan who is a bhudist at heart, but rather than preaching bhudism to the masses he created a form of tai chi called 'infinite tai chi' to just provide a method for any person on the street to obtain some sort of spiritual connection...to him that was more important than preaching his religion.

    A population stuck in Maya sometimes needs many methods to just get them kickstarted on the spiritual path and some of these blessed beings use other methods like tai chi, yoga to help many people that may otherwise remain lost...after that, i'm sure just like some of Yogi Bhajans followers that took to sikhi, many people will return to their original faith and start seeing the TRUTH behind the many rituals, beliefs etc due to their awakened consciousness

    Just my thoughts :)

    A video of Jason Chan if anyone is interested:

    Jason Chan - Light Foundation - YouTube



     
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  18. spnadmin

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    chazSingh ji

    Rose colored glasses make everything look "rosy" by definition. Yogi Bhajan wanted the world around him to be "cozy." Frankly you don't have a clue. Lost souls were uplifted if they entered the organization with money. They were uplifted to the top of the organization.

    Please when you have time take a look at the rickross web site. There you can read about the originating operating principles that were operating at the time that "Yogi Bhajan provided a way for many lost souls to connect spiritually in a way they could grasp."

    The Pure Ones
    http://www.rickross.com/reference/3ho/3ho1.html

    International Kundalini Teachers' Association 3HO
    http://www.rickross.com/reference/3ho/3ho48.html

    Anyone trained as a Kundalini yoga teacher with ties to 3HO is careful to state - Kundaini Yoga as taught by Yogi Bhajan.

    The 3H0 organization continues in part to thrive because 3HO certified teachers, Sikh or not, return 10 percent of their earnings to the 3HO. The business plan operates much like a franchising organization, similar to MacDonalds or Mary Kay Cosmetics. It is a self-perpetuating organization.

    If you don't believe that 3HO, Sikh Dharma in all its incarnations, are businesses read "Death of a Yogi" http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-17701-death_of_a_yogi.html

    If money seems to stand in the way of realizing God, according to the devotes, don't be so stiff-backed. Take up yoga to loosen up that spine, and recite a special prayer to Guru Ram Das - he who blesses the devote with fortune and there is even a special prayer to Guru Ram Das for that.

    Finally I would say that being open-minded means one informs oneself regarding "paths to God" and attempts to understand why they are what they are in the specifics. Open-mindedness does not have to mean "condone" or "rationalize" those practices. These practices may take a person away from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ... because every Mahant in 3HO (yes there are mahants with 3HO Lucky ji) began as a student, who became a teacher, who gravitated to the center of the organization, who became a Mahant, and only a few will "evolve" to an exalted level in the corporate hierarchy as opposed to spiritual state. If you do become a Mahant then you can lead higher level Kundalini practices - as taught by Yogi Bhajan - at solstices, camps, teacher training, and workshops, to the tune of $hundreds per person. The path to God will cost you.

    Peel back the layers. Kundalini for fitness and optimizing one's mind and emotions is the starting point. 3HO can if you chose take you to more elevated levels, such as White Tantric Yoga, led by mahants. A mahant in the 3HO organization teaches advanced pathways to God. If you are a Sikh, why would you need a mahant? If you are not a Sikh, why would you need a mahant? And I did not know there were beginners paths and expert paths, and a "masters class" to swim across the world ocean to God.
     
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  19. chazSingh

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    Just to make things clear, i don't do any kind of yoga, or kundalini yoga.
    I've watched a lot of yogi bhajan video's, especially the ones about japji sahib and they explained a lot of what i couldn't understand in my journey through simran and meditation.

    The rick ross websites always appear when talk concerning yogi bhajan.
    There are many people who mock Sikhi in the same way...such material is out there.
    It's good to be open minded, but can you explain why you take Rick Ross's accounts as pure factual?

    I can;t judge yogi bhajan because i wasn't there with him...nor can i count on Rick Ross's accounts....i can only look at my own spiritual evolvement and refer back to some of the video's made of him and the things he said...and some of what he said i can concur with through my own experience..

    for me thats good enough...there are bad souls amongst any profession...it'll be the same in 3HO, sikhi, budhism, plumbers, government etc etc etc
     
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  20. Kanwaljit Singh

    Kanwaljit Singh India
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    That is the right attitude Chaz Singh ji! It would save the world from half its conflicts.
     
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  21. spnadmin

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    You don't have to judge him chazSingh ji. He and yes followers and his legacy were judged in the courts. It is all there. All I can say is "Amazing."
     
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