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Translators and Free will

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Taranjeet singh, Mar 11, 2010.

  1. Taranjeet singh

    Taranjeet singh India
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    While following the thread on 'Free will' It was a temptation to post a line of SGGS ji that states clearly that there is free will granted to the mortals. It was against the sikhi. I was ,however, searching the line from the SGGS but could not find it in the last three days. It is today that I could locate it. The english translation is defective or weird and may change the sikh philosophy
    It reads as follows;


    sMjogI AwieAw ikrqu kmwieAw krxI kwr krweI ] (75-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
    [By the good fortune of good deeds done in the past, you have come, and now you perform actions to determine your future.]

    I did not have the courage to post this line as it would have gone against the spirit of sikhi.
    On referring to Dr. Sahib Singh ji meaning of the line was clearer.

    He has stated this

    ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ ਪਹਿਲੈ ਪਹਰੈ ਰੈਣਿ ਕੈ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਬਾਲਕ ਬੁਧਿ ਅਚੇਤੁ ॥ ਖੀਰੁ ਪੀਐ ਖੇਲਾਈਐ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਸੁਤ ਹੇਤੁ ॥ ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਸੁਤ ਨੇਹੁ ਘਨੇਰਾ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਸਬਾਈ ॥ ਸੰਜੋਗੀ ਆਇਆ ਕਿਰਤੁ ਕਮਾਇਆ ਕਰਣੀ ਕਾਰ ਕਰਾਈ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨੁ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ਬੂਡੀ ਦੂਜੈ ਹੇਤਿ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਪਹਿਲੈ ਪਹਰੈ ਛੂਟਹਿਗਾ ਹਰਿ ਚੇਤਿ ॥੧॥


    ਹਰਿ-ਨਾਮ ਦਾ ਵਣਜ ਕਰਨ ਆਏ ਹੇ ਜੀਵ-ਮਿਤ੍ਰ! (ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ ਦੀ) ਰਾਤ ਦੇ ਪਹਿਲੇ ਪਹਰ ਵਿਚ (ਜੀਵ) ਬਾਲਕਾਂ ਦੀ ਅਕਲ ਵਾਲਾ (ਅੰਞਾਣ) ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ। (ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਵਲੋਂ) ਬੇ-ਪਰਵਾਹ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਹੇ ਵਣਜਾਰੇ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ! (ਬਾਲ ਉਮਰੇ ਜੀਵ ਮਾਂ ਦਾ) ਦੁੱਧ ਪੀਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਖੇਡਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਪਰਚਾਈਦਾ ਹੈ, (ਉਸ ਉਮਰੇ) ਮਾਪਿਆਂ ਦਾ (ਆਪਣੇ) ਪੁੱਤਰ ਨਾਲ (ਬੜਾ) ਪਿਆਰ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਮਾਂ ਪਿਉ ਦਾ ਪੁੱਤਰ ਨਾਲ ਬਹੁਤ ਪਿਆਰ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਮਾਇਆ ਦਾ (ਇਹ) ਮੋਹ ਸਾਰੀ ਸ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟੀ ਨੂੰ (ਹੀ ਵਿਆਪ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ)। (ਜੀਵ ਨੇ ਪਿਛਲੇ ਜਨਮਾਂ ਵਿਚ) ਕਰਮਾਂ ਦਾ ਜੋ ਸੰਗ੍ਰਹ ਕਮਾਇਆ, ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਸੰਜੋਗ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ (ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚ) ਜਨਮਿਆ, (ਤੇ ਇਥੇ ਆ ਕੇ ਮੁੜ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ) ਕਰਣੀ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਦੁਨੀਆ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਵਿਚ ਡੁੱਬ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ, ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ (ਇਸ ਮੋਹ ਵਿਚੋਂ) ਖ਼ਲਾਸੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦੀ। ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਆਖ-ਹੇ ਜੀਵ! (ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ ਦੀ ਰਾਤ ਦੇ) ਪਹਿਲੇ ਪਹਰ ਵਿਚ (ਤੂੰ ਬੇ-ਪਰਵਾਹ ਹੈਂ), ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਕਰ (ਸਿਮਰਨ ਦੀ ਸਹਾਇਤਾ ਨਾਲ ਹੀ ਤੂੰ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਤੋਂ) ਬਚੇਂਗਾ।੧



    This is posted as there would be some like me who do not refer to standard translations/Teeka and rely on Sant singh Khalsa.

    It is requested that the seeker should refer to some standard Teeka before making the concepts and further one should check the meanings as well before posting.It shall avoid the discussion entering into arguments.

    In nutshell this line is also suggestive of absence of free will.

    Warm regards!
     
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  3. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Taranajeet Singh ji

    Why do you think that the line suggests the absence of free will?
     
  4. Taranjeet singh

    Taranjeet singh India
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    The Free will should be , as per my opinion, the freedom to anything as per the will. It is possible if the Jeeva comes back in the new garb as a clean -slate.

    What the English translation says [you have come, and now you perform actions to determine your future] amounts to complete freedom given to the man to act as as he pleases.If this is true then it is in conflict with the attribute of the God that He is omnipotent. Man's freedom will hit this provision and hence is not tenable. Man cannot be the chooser as He is bound with in the Command of His hukum.The english translation is, therefore , defective.

    The Gurmukhi translation of Dr,. Sahib singh states and it also stands to reason and can be explained.

    The Jeeva has undergone many lives in the past prior to its coming here in the present garb. The jeeva does not come here as a clean state. It comes with already inbuilt tendencies, internal conditiong/ some predominant dispositions/tendencies and the jeeva starts its journey with in these constraints. These are dispositions which shall govern to form his attitude and habits. Hence the jeeva comes here with in built traits and inner conditioning that will come in its way in exercising the free will. That is why Guru sahib have stated ' Born because of the karma of their past mistakes, they make more mistakes, and fall into mistakes'.[149-2]In effect the jeeva will be committed to commit the mistakes and follies that it has been committing in the past lives.

    In addition to this there are other lines as well that states that there is no freedom.

    Nothing is in their hands; what can these poor creatures do? By their actions, nothing can be done.[859.8] But that being, whom the Lord has blessed with His Mercy from the very beginning, does perfect deeds, and accumulates good karma.[959.6]Whatever has been, and whatever shall be, comes from Lord.[176.15]No one else can do anything at all.[176.15]We are united with You, when You unite us with Yourself.[176.16]

    It is on account of this that ,I presume, that there is no free-will in the line as asked for by you.

    I hope I am clear in expressing.

    Regards.!
     
    #3 Taranjeet singh, Mar 14, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2010
  5. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Taranjeet ji

    The conversation gets more complicated as we continue. I don't agree that "free will" amounts to doing anything "as per the will"..."freedom given to man to act as he pleases."

    My understanding of free will: the freedom to choose among possible actions. And the ability to consider and weigh the consequences of my actions before I make a choice.

    Freedom to choose is not incompatible with God's omnipotence as far as I can tell. If God is omnipotent, the range of choices I can make have already been predetermined, though perhaps not the actual choice that I do make in a particular situation. I cannot for example choose to slay my enemy with a ray gun which has not been invented yet. I can choose to slay my enemy with a rifle. The choice to kill is mine, but not the choice of my weapon.

    I think we have to consider that ethics and morality are not humanly possible -- without the freedom to choose good or wickedness. And more -- if the choice to do good is completely conditioned by Divine will then there no one should be praised or held up as a role model for a lifetime of good deeds. And if the choice to be wicked is completely conditioned by Divine will then no rank criminal should be held morally accountable for his wicked deeds. The deeds might be punished, but the criminal should be held blameless.

    There would also be no need to think in terms of finding God's light within us, nor to overcome hatred and anger toward other beings.

    And if Akaal is without enmity, without hatred, then why would Akaal withhold His jyote from some and give it to others.

    To me this is an oversimplification of the idea of "hukam." And it casts God into the role of a puppet master. But who knows? Perhaps God is a puppet master, and we are simply his playthings. Of course that is not my understanding of God.
     
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  6. curious seeker

    curious seeker
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    Taranjeet singh ji

    As I post this, I realize that I have not yet read other's comments, so I apologize if I am repeating myself. To quote the line that, to me , is the crux of your argument:

    '' What the English translation says [you have come, and now you perform actions to determine your future] amounts to complete freedom given to the man to act as as he pleases.If this is true then it is in conflict with the attribute of the God that He is omnipotent. Man's freedom will hit this provision and hence is not tenable. Man cannot be the chooser as He is bound with in the Command of His hukum.The english translation is, therefore , defective. ''

    I am sorry, maybe I am too dense, however, when the English translation says: ' ... you have come, now you perform actions to determine your future' I do not see anything here but LIMITED free will and nothing at all that is in conflict with Hukam, Gods Power, God's Divine Law or with God's Perfect Will. Rather, I see it as saying: In the Perfect Will of God, the Rewards for the choices of man are predetermined. Not men choosing. Man must have the ability to choose or he could not even choose to be under the Hukam of God's will!!!!!

    This does not, AT ALL, affect God's Omnipotence. For when it says above, '... you have come.. ' we came because we ARE CREATED by Sat Guru and His Word which expresses His Will. And when it says ' ... now you perform your actions to determine your future ... ' it means , to me, that we freely choose to act think, speak and act, but ONLY because God has given us the Free Will to do this. Thus when we choose we either choose what carries, for us, predetermined rewards that are good, or predetermined rewards that are bad.

    Thus God remains omnipotent and man remains free to choose. However, those destined for Liberation (which is the main reward among the good rewards above) are the ones who REALIZE through the ENLIGHTENER, which is the SGGS (the Naam, the Gurbani, etc) that in order to be liberated one must put one's free will, (Along with the rest of ones's being) under the Hukam of God's Perfect Will. That is why it is the rewards for our choices (I.E. Salvation, Nirvana or reincarnation and suffering) that are predetermined and not one's choices.

    That at least is my considered opinion. Now if the SGGS says different in the original Gurmukhi, I humbly stand corrected

    Blessings
    Curious
     
  7. Taranjeet singh

    Taranjeet singh India
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    Respected NarayanJot Kaur ji

    I have gone through your post and am offering the comments as per my understanding.



    My understanding of free will: the freedom to choose among possible actions. And the ability to consider and weigh the consequences of my actions before I make a choice.


    Freedom to choose is not incompatible with God's omnipotence as far as I can tell..If God is omnipotent, the range of choices I can make have already been predetermined, though perhaps not the actual choice that I do make in a particular situation.I cannot for example choose to slay my enemy with a ray gun which has not been invented yet. I can choose to slay my enemy with a rifle. The choice to kill is mine, but not the choice of my weapon.


    Let us sort out the basic concepts and hope it would be interesting for you as is for me.

    I would presume that even while making a choice out of the range of choices the determining factor would be the previous conditioning as already stated in the above post. Same would be applicable, IMHO, regarding the choice of weapon in the example cited by you. We should not forget that only that comes to pass which is according to His will. The fact that you state that you have a choice to kill only and not the choice of the weapon make one believe some duality in it. It also contains egoism. You are not the doer or I am not the doer. He is the karta purukh –all powerful , Almighty. We are the puppets as we are participating in the game show on stage set for us. The game show would run as per His game plan. He remains the doer. Nothing can happen without His will. Do you think that we get up in the morning at 3 a.m and remember Him does not require His concurrence or approval.? Definetely, Yes. Even if I may long for being regular but I skip many days for one reason or another. If He does not want I shall not get up howsoever hard I may try. The sanskaras [kirat] cannot made ineffective. One acts according to the nature of deeds done in th earlier lives.The same is repeated in the following At page 60 of SGGS ji. It is significant to look into the definitional meaning assigned to ‘Kirat’ by Dr. Sahib Singh has given this meaning correctly and is perfectly in line with the earlier post.

    ਰੇ ਮਨ ਐਸੀ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਜੈਸੀ ਚਾਤ੍ਰਿਕ ਮੇਹ ॥ ਸਰ ਭਰਿ ਥਲ ਹਰੀਆਵਲੇ ਇਕ ਬੂੰਦ ਨ ਪਵਈ ਕੇਹ ॥ ਕਰਮਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੋ ਪਾਈਐ ਕਿਰਤੁਪਇਆ ਸਿਰਿ ਦੇਹ ॥੩॥
    O mind, love the Lord, as the song-bird loves the rain. The pools are overflowing with water, and the land is luxuriantly green, but what are they to her, if that single drop of rain does not fall into her mouth? By His Grace, she receives it; otherwise, because of her past actions, she gives her head. ||3||
    ਮੇਹ = ਮੀਂਹ, ਵਰਖਾ। ਚਾਤ੍ਰਿਕ = ਪਪੀਹਾ। ਭਰਿ = ਭਰੇ ਹੋਏ। ਕੇਹ = ਕਿਸ ਅਰਥ? ਕਰਮਿ = ਮਿਹਰ ਨਾਲ। ਕਿਰਤੁ ਪਾਇਆ = ਪੂਰਬਲਾ ਕਮਾਇਆ ਹੋਇਆ, (ਪੂਰਬਲਾ) ਕੀਤਾ ਹੋਇਆ (ਜੋ ਸੰਸਕਾਰ-ਰੂਪ ਵਿਚ) ਇਕੱਠਾ ਹੋਇਆ (ਅੰਦਰ ਮੌਜੂਦ) ਹੈ। ਸਿਰਿ = ਸਿਰ ਉਤੇ। ਦੇਹ = ਸਰੀਰ (ਉੱਤੇ)।੩।

    ਹੇ ਮਨ! ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨਾਲ ਇਹੋ ਜਿਹੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤ ਕਰ, ਜਿਹੋ ਜਿਹੀ ਪਪੀਹੇ ਦੀ ਮੀਂਹ ਨਾਲ ਹੈ। (ਪਾਣੀ ਨਾਲ) ਸਰੋਵਰ ਭਰੇ ਹੋਏ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਧਰਤੀ (ਪਾਣੀ ਦੀ ਬਰਕਤਿ ਨਾਲ) ਹਰਿਆਵਲੀ ਹੋਈ ਪਈ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ, ਪਰ ਜੇ (ਸ੍ਵਾਂਤੀ ਨਛੱਤ੍ਰ ਵਿਚ ਪਏ ਮੀਂਹ ਦੀ) ਇਕ ਬੂੰਦ (ਪਪੀਹੇ ਦੇ ਮੂੰਹ ਵਿਚ) ਨਾਹ ਪਏ, ਤਾਂ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਇਸ ਸਾਰੇ ਪਾਣੀ ਨਾਲ ਕੋਈ ਭਾਗ ਨਹੀਂ। (ਪਰ ਹੇ ਮਨ! ਤੇਰੇ ਭੀ ਕੀਹ ਵੱਸ! ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ) ਆਪਣੀ ਮਿਹਰ ਨਾਲ ਹੀ ਮਿਲੇ ਤਾਂ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਹੈ, (ਨਹੀਂ ਤਾਂ) ਪੂਰਬਲਾ ਕਮਾਇਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਸਿਰ ਉੱਤੇ ਸਰੀਰ ਉੱਤੇ ਝੱਲਣਾ ਹੀ ਪੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ।੩।


    There are many examples that can be cited to see if the definition of kirat includes the ‘Sanskaras’ or not. It is these ‘sanskaras’ that determine the type of the actions that we would be tempted to undertake or would undertake. Our innate nature cannot be changed in a moment. The innate nature is the outcome of the previous deeds done in earlier lives. These are ingrained in our personality. These ‘sanskaras’ do come in our way while we are to exercise the, so called, Free will. As their past actions drive them, so are mortals driven.[990.2] The mortals obtain what they are predestined to receive.[990.14] He thinks that good and bad deeds come from himself; this is the source of all evil.[993.13]Whatever happens in this world is only by the Order of our Lord and Master.[993.14] Let us see the meaning of the following lines as per Dr. Sahib Singh ji.[Ref Ang.228 of SGGS ji]


    ਕਿਰਤੁ ਪਇਆ ਅਧ ਊਰਧੀ ਬਿਨੁ ਗਿਆਨ ਬੀਚਾਰਾ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਉਪਮਾ ਜਗਦੀਸ ਕੀ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਨ ਅੰਧਿਆਰਾ ॥੩॥

    According to the karma of past actions, people descend to the depths or rise to the heights, unless they contemplate spiritual wisdom. Without the Praises of the Lord of the Universe, the darkness is not dispelled. ||3||

    ਬ੍ਰਹਿਮ-ਗਿਆਤ ਨੂੰ ਸੋਚਣ-ਵਿਚਾਰਣ ਦੇ ਬਗ਼ੈਰ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ, ਆਪਣੇ ਕਰਮਾਂ ਦੇ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਨੀਵਾਂ ਡਿਗਦਾ ਜਾਂ ਉੱਚਾ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਸ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟੀ ਦੇ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਦੀ ਉਸਤਤੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਝੋਂ ਹਨ੍ਹੇਰਾ ਦੂਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੁੰਦਾ।
    ਕਿਰਤੁ = ਕੀਤੇ ਕਰਮਾਂ ਦਾ ਸੰਗ੍ਰਹ। ਪਇਆ = ਇਕੱਠਾ ਹੋਇਆ। ਕਿਰਤੁ ਪਇਆ = ਕੀਤੇ ਕਰਮਾਂ ਦੇ ਇਕੱਠੇ ਹੋਏ ਸੰਸਕਾਰਾਂ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ।ਊਰਧੀ = ਉਤਾਂਹ। ਉਪਮਾ = ਵਡਿਆਈ।੩।

    (ਇਸ) ਗਿਆਨ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ, ਵਿਚਾਰ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ, ਜੀਵ ਆਪਣੇ ਕੀਤੇ ਕਰਮਾਂ ਦੇ ਇਕੱਠੇ ਹੋਏ ਸੰਸਕਾਰਾਂ ਦੇ ਅਧੀਨ ਕਦੇ ਪਾਤਾਲ ਵਿਚ ਡਿੱਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਦੇ ਆਕਾਸ਼ ਵਲ ਚੜ੍ਹਦਾ ਹੈ (ਕਦੇ ਦੁਖੀ ਕਦੇ ਸੁਖੀ)। ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਤਿ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਕਰਨ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਜੀਵ ਦੀ ਅਗਿਆਨਤਾ ਮਿਟਦੀ ਨਹੀਂ।੩


    I think we have to consider that ethics and morality are not humanly possible -- without the freedom to choose good or wickedness. And more -- if the choice to do good is completely conditioned by Divine will then there no one should be praised or held up as a role model for a lifetime of good deeds. And if the choice to be wicked is completely conditioned by Divine will then no rank criminal should be held morally accountable for his wicked deeds. The deeds might be punished, but the criminal should be held blameless.

    The same answer would be applicable here as well as the para deals with the choices. Let us also not forget the we all are puppets and are acting as per His will and Hukum.Who is the doer? Bani has repeatedly told that we should sub due our ego. The ego makes us think that we are the doer while it is not so in reality.The Karta Purukh is the doer. May be he does many things through this body of ours and He makes us act accordingly. It is He who causes us to act.[125-14]He himself is the creator and the enjoyer.{125-15] He alone knows His Creative Power; He Himself does all deeds. [53-14]We presume under egoism that we have done something while in reality it is not so. It is a folly to presume that we are the doers. We are not. He is the doer. God Himself is the Cause of causes, good and bad-no one has control over these things.[77.9]

    Let us try to understand the following line to understand the things in some perspective.

    He Himself acts, and causes others to act. [131-14]How does He act? The answer to this is found in ‘He causes us to act’-[125-14]


    3.There would also be no need to think in terms of finding God's light within us, nor to overcome hatred and anger toward other beings.


    These ‘sanskaras’ have tarnished our mind and that is why the purety of mind is stressed in our religion. Cleansing of mind is done through the methods as contained in Guru Granth sahib ji. If we have realize the divinity we have to realize that divinity that is stated to be present in each and every one. May be God has already shown His grace and we are doing Simran. It is the effort of mind that we shall over come the five maladies and it shall happen when we are Graced upon. Meditation /Simran are the ways to purge the mind so that we can come out of the trap of senses that are stated to be greater than the Body. Mind is greater than the Senses. Intellect is greater than the mind and above all is jeeva.

    4.And if Akaal is without enmity, without hatred, then why would Akaal withhold His jyote from some and give it to others.


    Well, it is as per bani. It is the basics of sikhi. God is always kind. That is why when we receive some pain we are asked to treat pain and pleasure alike i.e. we should remain equi-poised by considering the pain as the result of some past karmas and the pain received being the justice of the God. He is just.

    5.To me this is an oversimplification of the idea of "hukam." And it casts God into the role of a puppet master. But who knows? Perhaps God is a puppet master, and we are simply his playthings. Of course that is not my understanding of God.


    Yes, He is the Puppet Master. There cannot be a better word to describe the things.I have given the translations of few lines that contain the words used in the post.

    It may be so. It is the individual’s perspective and way of taking the things and its analysis. It is His play only and we are helpless puppets only equipped with the weaponry as provided in our Guru. What are we made up of ? Five elements in which he has infused himself as well. Everything that is in form is transitory shall perish. He is the only ever-existent.The divinity in us would move away at the time ,that we call as death ,of its onward journey to God. Lord also deludes the mortals.[707-16]But in fact no one dies at all. Nothing Dies at all. The five elements mixes with the five elements and the beautiful swan flies away some day.Yes, Puppet appears in the translation of some lines.


    O Nanak, whatever pleases His Will comes to pass. Nothing is in the hands of these beings. ||8||4||[55-18]

    Kindly have look at the following lines:

    What can the poor wooden puppet do? The Master Puppeteer knows everything.[206-8]

    As the Puppeteer dresses the puppet, so is the role the puppet plays. ||3||


    As You have delegated, so do we apply ourselves, O Lord and Master.[271-2]


    O Nanak, human beings are the instruments which vibrate as God plays them. ||2||[313-19]


    You are the Lord Master, I am just Your puppet. Prays Nanak, what is my social status to be? ||4||1||33||[358-18]


    Nothing is in anyone's hands; all walk as You cause them to walk.[450-11]


    O Nanak, we are the instruments upon which He plays; as He wills, so is the path we take. ||8||2||5||[834-11]


    Nothing is in their hands; what can these poor creatures do? By their actions, nothing can be done.[859-8]


    [Subject to correction]

    It is requested that we should quote bani as well to strengthen the stated points. I shall stand corrected by any member.

    [Curious-seeker ji...I did not see your post while I was preparing the reply.Hence I have no comments.]

    I put this discussion to rest after it competes this cycle.
    Regards!
     
    #6 Taranjeet singh, Mar 14, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2010
  8. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
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    My opinion is that if you post one line out of a shabad, that is enough to distort its meaning, forget the English translation.
     
  9. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    I really have nothing more to say.
     
  10. kuldeepsb5

    kuldeepsb5
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    Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh,
    Teeka or Shadarthh done by some one is not the exact meanings and message of the original script but explanation done as per the knowledge
    gained by him/her.Teeka is the level of "avasthha" of teekakar and that is why all the teekas available explain GURBANI with different angels and no teeka can be claimed ,explaining Gurbani perfectly.
    The exact way of understanding arthhs of Gurbani is to do SEHAJ PATHH again and again and after doing some Sehaj Pathhs we are able to understand arths of Gurbani when we corelate the same words repeated at so many places in different Shabads and in different references.
    But before starting Sehaj Pathh ,we should read and understand
    PUNJ GRANTHI, VAARAN BHAI GURDAS JI , 22 VAARAN,BHAGAT BANI under guidance of some such a person who might have done some Sehaj Paaths
    already.
    Bhul chuk khima ,
    Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh,
     

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