Welcome to SPN

Register and Join the most happening forum of Sikh community & intellectuals from around the world.

Sign Up Now!
  1.   Become a Supporter    ::   Make a Contribution   
    Target (Recurring Monthly): $200 :: Achieved: $98

Translation of Tuk Does Not Seem Right! Consult Guru Granth Darpan (Punjabi content)

Discussion in 'Gurmat Vichaar' started by spnadmin, Mar 19, 2011.

  1. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,519
    Likes Received:
    19,173
    What is the purpose of this thread? To use Guru Granth Darpan by Professor Sahib Singh to resolve contradictory translations of tuks in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

    There are times when a difference in the translation of even a single word can take the meaning of a tuk into a radically different direction. How can these tough puzzles be solved? We have the ability to look more closely at difficult tuks, because we have members who can translated from the Guru Granth Darpan and provide insight into the tuk's meaning.

    Some examples

    A. There are times when 'approved' translations do not agree.

    by Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa
    ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥
    सोचै सोचि न होवई जे सोची लख वार ॥
    Socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār.
    By thinking, He cannot be reduced to thought, even by thinking hundreds of thousands of times


    by Bhai Manmohan Singh
    ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥
    सोचै सोचि न होवई जे सोची लख वार ॥
    Socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār.
    By pondering on God, man cannot have a conception of Him, even though he may ponder over lacs of times


    From Guru Granth Darpan, an alternative translation of Professor Sahib Singh
    ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥
    सोचै सोचि न होवई जे सोची लख वार ॥
    Socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ v
    Not by ritual purification can the purity be attained, even if one were to cleanse a hundred thousand times.


    The possibility of two translations was also cited by 2 scholars, both by Gurcharan Singh Talib and Madan G. Gandhi.


    Finally, Professor Sahib Singh gives this explanation of the tuk



    ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥ ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ ॥

    सोचै सोचि न होवई जे सोची लख वार ॥ चुपै चुप न होवई जे लाइ रहा लिव तार ॥

    Socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār. Cẖupai cẖup na hova▫ī je lā▫e rahā liv ṯār.

    ਸੋਚੈ = ਸੁਚਿ ਰੱਖਣ ਨਾਲ, ਪਵਿੱਤਰਤਾ ਕਾਇਮ ਰੱਖਣ ਨਾਲ। ਸੋਚਿ = ਸੁਚਿ, ਪਵਿੱਤਰਤਾ, ਸੁੱਚ। ਨ ਹੋਵਈ = ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦੀ। ਸੋਚੀ = ਮੈਂ ਸੁੱਚ ਰੱਖਾਂ। ਚੁਪੈ = ਚੁੱਪ ਕਰ ਰਹਿਣ ਨਾਲ। ਚੁਪ = ਸ਼ਾਂਤੀ, ਮਨ ਦੀ ਚੁੱਪ, ਮਨ ਦਾ ਟਿਕਾਉ। ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ = ਮੈਂ ਲਾਈ ਰੱਖਾਂ। ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ = ਲਿਵ ਦੀ ਤਾਰ, ਲਿਵ ਦੀ ਡੋਰ, ਇਕ-ਤਾਰ ਸਮਾਧੀ।

    ਜੇ ਮੈਂ ਲੱਖ ਵਾਰੀ (ਭੀ) (ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਆਦਿਕ ਨਾਲ ਸਰੀਰ ਦੀ) ਸੁੱਚ ਰੱਖਾਂ, (ਤਾਂ ਭੀ ਇਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ) ਸੁੱਚ ਰੱਖਣ ਨਾਲ (ਮਨ ਦੀ) ਸੁੱਚ ਨਹੀਂ ਰਹਿ ਸਕਦੀ। ਜੇ ਮੈਂ (ਸਰੀਰ ਦੀ) ਇਕ-ਤਾਰ ਸਮਾਧੀ ਲਾਈ ਰੱਖਾਂ; (ਤਾਂ ਭੀ ਇਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ) ਚੁੱਪ ਕਰ ਰਹਿਣ ਨਾਲ ਮਨ ਦੀ ਸ਼ਾਂਤੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦੀ।

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    B. There are other times when no available and approved translation seems correct.

    Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa translates

    ਅਗਨਤ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਅਲਖ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਜਿਹ ਸਭ ਜਗੁ ਭਰਮਾਇਓ ॥
    Aganath Apaar Alakh Niranjan Jih Sabh Jag Bharamaaeiou ||
    Incalculable, infinite, incomprehensible and immaculate is He, who has misled the entire world.


    Bhai Manmohan Singh translates:

    ਅਗਨਤ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਅਲਖ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਜਿਹ ਸਭ ਜਗੁ ਭਰਮਾਇਓ ॥
    Agnaṯ apār alakẖ niranjan jih sabẖ jag bẖarmā▫i▫o.
    Incomputable, lllimitable, Incomprehensible and Immaculate is the Lord who has lured away the whole world.

    "Lured away" and "misled the entire world" convey very different meanings -- and in the case of the second, "misled the entire world" the sense of Akaal as cosmic trouble-maker is quite strong. The differences cast completely different ideas of how we related to the divine nature. Neither seem quite right.

    Can Professor Sahib Singh clear this up?


    ਅਗਨਤ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਅਲਖ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਜਿਹ ਸਭ ਜਗੁ ਭਰਮਾਇਓ ॥ ਸਗਲ ਭਰਮ ਤਜਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਚਰਨਿ ਤਾਹਿ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇਓ ॥੩॥੧॥੨॥
    Agnaṯ apār alakẖ niranjan jih sabẖ jag bẖarmā▫i▫o. Sagal bẖaram ṯaj Nānak parāṇī cẖaran ṯāhi cẖiṯ lā▫i▫o. ||3||1||2||
    Incomputable, lllimitable, Incomprehensible and Immaculate is the Lord who has lured away the whole world. Says Nanak, O mortal, lay aside thou all thy doubts and fix thy mind on His feet.

    ਅਗਨਤ = ਜਿਸ ਦੇ ਗੁਣ ਗਿਣੇ ਨਾਹ ਜਾ ਸਕਣ। ਅਪਾਰੁ = ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਪਾਰਲਾ ਬੰਨਾ ਨਾਹ ਲੱਭ ਸਕੇ। ਅਲਖ = ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਸਰੂਪ ਸਮਝ ਵਿਚ ਨਾਹ ਆ ਸਕੇ। ਨਿਰੰਜਨ = ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਵ ਤੋਂ ਪਰੇ। ਜਿਹ = ਜਿਸ (ਹਰੀ) ਨੇ। ਭਰਮਾਇਓ = ਭਟਕਣਾ ਵਿਚ ਪਾ ਰੱਖਿਆ ਹੈ। ਤਾਹਿ ਚਰਨਿ = ਉਸ ਦੇ ਚਰਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ। ਲਾਇਓ = ਲਾਇਆ ਹੈ।੩।

    ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਉਸ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਗੁਣ ਗਿਣੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾ ਸਕਦੇ, ਉਹ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਅਦ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਨਿਰਲੇਪ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੇ ਹੀ ਸਾਰੇ ਜਗਤ ਨੂੰ (ਮਾਇਆ ਦੀ) ਭਟਕਣਾ ਵਿਚ ਪਾਇਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ। ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! (ਆਖ-) ਜਿਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੇ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਚਰਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਮਨ ਜੋੜਿਆ ਹੈ, ਇਹ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੀਆਂ ਸਾਰੀਆਂ ਭਟਕਣਾਂ ਤਿਆਗ ਕੇ ਹੀ ਜੋੜਿਆ ਹੈ।੩।੧।੨।


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This is the place to post your questions about translations that don't seem quite right. Thanks to forum member Ambarsaria ji who provided the inspiration for this thread, and some of the commentary posted above. :)
     
    • Like Like x 3
  2. Loading...

    Similar Threads Forum Date
    Question About Translations Questions and Answers Dec 20, 2016
    A Translation Of Japji Sahib Jap Ji Sahib Oct 11, 2016
    Pauri 2 Japji Sahib Translation Of Katha By Sant Maskeen Ji Jap Ji Sahib Sep 5, 2016
    Pauri 1 Japji Sahib Translation Of Katha By Sant Maskeen Ji Jap Ji Sahib Sep 5, 2016
    Jap Japji Sahib Translation Of Sant Maskeen Ji’s Katha : Mool Mantar Jap Ji Sahib Sep 5, 2016

  3. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
    Expand Collapse
    ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
    Writer SPNer Contributor Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    Messages:
    3,366
    Likes Received:
    5,657
    Issue No A:





    Issue No: B

    Humbly submitted to be commented, corrected or deleted as appropriate.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  4. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
    Expand Collapse
    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2007
    Messages:
    4,578
    Likes Received:
    1,606
    I pray Parkash S. Bagga will have much to say here.:noticemunda:
     
  5. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,514
    Likes Received:
    1,112
    NAMJAP Ji,
    I shall feel honoured if you order me .We can pray SATiGURu Ji only.

    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,514
    Likes Received:
    1,112
    This is an appreciable attempt .
    We should first fully justify the cosideration of GURU GRANTH DARPAN by Prof SAHIB Singh Jee as cent percent correct reference as compared to others translations.
    Then only we can establish the correctness of translation,

    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
  7. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
    Expand Collapse
    ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
    Writer SPNer Contributor Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    Messages:
    3,366
    Likes Received:
    5,657
    Prakash.s.bagga ji I don't believe the thread is asking you to use Professor Sahib Singh ji. Please stop creating pre-conditions like the following,
    We cannot share anything through such approaches. Even Professor Sahib Singh ji and all other translator's state in most humble but scholarly way that this is their understanding, considering everything and is not infallible. Please state your understanding with or without anyone else's work (or reference to it) and let it be considered by your brothers and sisters.

    For the sake of this thread let us not create a jam of constraints just state your assumptions when you translate by yourself or give reference if you use someone else's work.

    Thank you and most humbly request of you to post your understanding with appropriate references if possible.

    Let us help each other and be happy in doing this work.mundahugwinkingmunda

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,519
    Likes Received:
    19,173
    This is important to remember

    There are other references and sources, including the Feridkot teeka. There are even non Sikh sources who can shed light. We should use them too, contrasting them to one another. But the focus of this thread is Guru Granth Darpan.

    Does anyone really want to say that Professor Sahib Singh did not know the grammar of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? The worse thing that can happen is what happened in a similar thread started in 2009. Then people who posted took the thread down narrow pathways choked with personal theories. What naturally followed were interpersonal conflicts. Scholarship was thrown to the wayside. If we can cite, and discuss, 2, 3 or even 8 sources that is the thing to do. The rule here needs to be -- break a deadlock, do not create a deadlock.

    I confess I am already feeling frustrated. The point of starting this thread was to advance the use of Guru Granth Darpan. It is right there in the thread title. If the thread goes in every kind of direction, then there is no point in continuing. Please stay on topic.
     
    • Like Like x 2
Since you're here... we have a small favor to ask...

More people are visiting & reading SPN than ever but far fewer are paying to sustain it. Advertising revenues across the online media have fallen fast. So you can see why we need to ask for your help. Donating to SPN's is vote for free speech, for diversity of opinions, for the right of the people to stand up to religious bigotry. Without any affiliation to any organization, this constant struggle takes a lot of hard work to sustain as we entirely depend on the contributions of our esteemed writers/readers. We do it because we believe our perspective matters – because it might well be your perspective, too... Fund our efforts and together we can keep the world informed about the real Sikh Sikhi Sikhism. If everyone who writes or reads our content, who likes it, helps us to pay for it, our future would be much more secure. Every Contribution Matters, Contribute Generously!

    Become a Supporter      ::     Make a Contribution     



Share This Page