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Transgenderism ... Right or Wrong?

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Neelum kaur, Oct 6, 2012.

  1. Neelum kaur

    Neelum kaur
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    Since I was 8 years old I wanted to become a boy, I told my family and friends about it but they said it was a phase and in a few months/years I'll get over it, but that's the thing I never did.

    As I grew older I took more likings into girls rather then guys, but to me it felt right. So when I was 13 years old I came out to everyone that I'm a lesbian.

    Buh now things have changed, from a full on lesbian I want to be a transsexual, I'd been thinking of it since even before I knew I was lesbian, so that is why I joined this site today so I can ask questions and get answers for what ever I wanted to know.

    I know that its believed to be that God said we should never judge people .. But even after explaining myself time and time again I still get people who look down on my and talk about me behind my back but when they want/need something I would b the first person they would ask.

    And now that I'm 18 I really need help, I want to be a good daughter and a good Sikh but I'm a lesbian who wants to be transsexual .. What do yu think, am I doing the right thing by making myself happy and making myself feel comfortable with the person I want to be or shall I listen to people who constantly want to put me down and who think I'm doing wrong .. Please tell me what yu think.
     
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  3. Kamala

    Kamala
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    Re: transgenderism .. right or wrong?

    Your choice your life. I don't think doing that is bad at all but it isn't something I would do.
     
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  4. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    Re: transgenderism .. right or wrong?

    As a human, you have the right to do whatever you want.
    I'm not sure if you are saying that you want to have medical procedures to make you more masculine or if you just want to be dressing up as a man.

    This is an issue about sexuality more than anything.
    Asking sikhs to look at at from a sikh point of view is not going to help you make your decision, because as I say it's about sexuality and not religion.

    What you do personally is fine and shouldn't get in the way of practicing sikhism.
    But in terms of social circles and sikhism, you should decide exactly what gender you want to be perceived as and stick to it.
    For example,. No one is going to be impressed seeing you in the Gurdwara or elsewhere and using ladies washroom's one day and then the mens on the other!!

    If you were to ask a more enlightened sikh, then they would advise you not to be worrying about such as to be choosing the way of the gurmukh and having more love for the lord than any gender you want, will be more of a regard and achievement.
    At that stage, issues like these become absolutely worthless.

    Sexuality as such isn't addressed directly in the Guru Granth Sahib ji but you may read plenty of poetry by Guru Gobind Singh ji in the Dasam Granth.
    Here, there are many descriptions of how one can conquer the inner beast within themselves (ie the sexuality urges..etc..) and to maintain more control of their mind.
    The sexuality is not addressed as taboo, but more of a battle of power within us.
    Many of the references given in the above are to hindu mythology, but the concepts and ideas are good and helpful in portraying the message as long as one doesn't get attached to the myths themselves!
     
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  5. Kanwaljit Singh

    Kanwaljit Singh India
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    If you have come forth for discussion, I would like to say don't go for transgender operation. It is fine to cross-dress, feel the way you wish to feel. Changing your body's anatomy would be hard on you. If you do so, you will get neither a homosexual or heterosexual female partner. And some of your body parts will lose function. I guess those would be like an appendix to you. But still. You might get new body by plastic surgery. But that would be that.

    People and society might go against you. You can still be a good child of your parents and a good Sikh. There is nothing wrong in doing something you wish to do, as long as you are not harming someone. But if you wish to make such a big change in life, with this huge impact, think clearly. Will you be able to walk down that road for the rest of your life? (Remember you might have to walk alone!)
     
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  6. namjiwankaur

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    _/|\_ Sat Nam

    Sister ji

    Thank you, first of all, for being so courageous to share what many of us would be too timid to share. I found this so inspirational.

    I am part of the lgbt community also.

    Are you familiar with Sarbat.net, an organization for the lgbt community?
    http://www.sarbat.net/

    I think only you will know what is right for you. My one concern is your age. You are very young. Not that a young person doesn't know; you have already felt this way for many years.

    Have you considered counseling? I would recommend that to anyone who is considering gender reassignment. Not to be "set straight" or whatever, just to have a source of support and a place to go to sort it all out. It will be a long difficult journey in some ways and a huge transition. I think everyone going through this should have some support.

    How does your family feel about you doing this?

    Have you read Chaz Bono's autobiography? I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but I think he candidly shares all the blessings and struggles of his own gender reassignment.

    I'm glad to see so many supporting your life style here. I hope you will keep sharing your experiences here as time goes by.

    Blessings, Love and Light to you...
    Nam Jiwan :happykudi:
     
    #5 namjiwankaur, Oct 6, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2012
  7. findingmyway

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    Neelum ji,
    I'm imaging this was a very difficult post for you to write to well done for your honesty. Please remember all views given here are personal opinions only (including mine) so please take the advice given in that spirit and not as gospel. Here are my suggestions in the mix!

    1) Most importantly, consider counselling to help you deal with your situation and help you decide your future. I can't stress the importance of this enough.
    2) Gender identity disorder (I don't want to call it a disorder but thats the current medical terminology) has been much researched and thought to have a biological basis. The best people to speak to about this is medical professionals. Also you are not the only member of the forum who has gender identity disorder. I forget his name thought as he hasn't visited for sometime :)
    3) There has been much debate on homosexuality so I won't go into that here again. The only point I want to emphasise is that whatever path you choose do not live controlled by lust. That is what Gurbani warns against. Live a truthful life of commitment.
    All the best!
     
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  8. namjiwankaur

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    Sat Nam _/|\_

    I apologize for referring to Chaz with feminine pronouns in my last post. I have corrected the pronouns using the proper gender for the pronoun.

    Nam Jiwan
     
  9. Neelum kaur

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    I want to say thanks to each and everyone of you for all the advice and support it really does mean a lot to me.

    And I have also spoken to my family about this but only some of them agree, my mom knows how much I'm suffering and I have actually been diagnosed with 'gender identity disorder' but even after knowing tha I hate living like this she still don't want me to have the sex change not because she thinks its wrong but she is afraid of what my dad and others will think.

    I try to see life from different perspectives but the only one that matters is the way God and my family see me, I would love to make everyone happy but then that means putting my happiness aside.

    I went counselling for 2years for this matter .. But still I'm confused on what is right, buh I'm going to have a final talk with my family and see what they say, other then that I really can't do nothing more .. Iv been waiting a long time for this and I'm not going to ever let a chance like this just go away, I have decided to have the sex change.
     
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  10. namjiwankaur

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    Sat Nam _/|\_

    Neelum ji

    I'm hoping your will remain active here at the forum and allow us to be part of this journey as it unfolds.

    I don't your gender identity should be considered a disorder. You are very thoughtful and you are not suffering from an illness. You are in touch with your heart.

    That's my view on this. I think it is important to take into consideration things like your father's disapproval. Not that it should stop you from following your heart, but so that you work through this one day at a time.

    Blessed Be, dear one.
    mundahug
     
  11. TigerStyleZ

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    WJKK WJKF
    Sorry,

    I can´t agree with you , changing your Gender is against Wahegurus Hukam... Why you think Waheguru make a you a girl? Sorry I can´t empathize with you Sister/brother ?? Whatver... I don´t know I am confused. Anyway, this is the same thing like Cutting hair or not ... If you alredy decided to do what you want there is no point in Sikhi.. IF you believe in Khalsa and Guru Gobind Singh ji, you also believe in Guru jis "Rehit" and this Rehit shows us the limits. Were we would be without Rules? Were would we go? If we follow just our "evil" mind - the mind/Mann everytime wants other things... Maybe this sounds hard... but you just need stop watching one side , you need to look at the whole pictures all views. and not only the one you want... Yes Sikhi is openminded and won´t refuse or exclude homosexual people or whatever ... But if these kind of people would go the way of Gurus the way of Sikhi.. they would themself stop with this thinking...This is a very materialistic view.. IF you reall want to merge back to god - you would take life as it is.. Why you want to change for the "Maya"? If your REal AIM is God? For what reason? I can´t agree with most people posted here..

    Maybe you don´t listen to me or don´t take my statement as full, because I am "young",
    but I can´t change it this your thing.. I just wanted to say.

    WJKK WJKF
     
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  12. Luckysingh

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    That's a very honest opinion and you are telling exactly how you feel about this without being judgemental.
    In all honesty, there are many of us who have the same attitude.
    We can't accept the disorder because it doesn't fall in line with personal beliefs.
    Many of us say we are accepting but if it comes down to your own son or daughter that comes to you with the same issue- then all of a sudden it becomes a different story and you start making exceptions.. ie.. ''it can't be really... Are you really sure..??...Have some time to think over it........blah..blah...''
    It's because we always accept the 'other' person but when it's someone in your immediate family, then it becomes hard to imagine and believe!!!
     
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  13. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    TIGERSTYLEZ Ji....

    GYAAN doesnt depend on "age"...thats why our Founder Father GURUS SAHIBAANS...have set an example of every conceivable type..we Have GURUS form BIRTH - Guru Nanak Ji who was AAD GURU till the Day of His JYOTI JYOT SAMANNA....then we Had Guru Angad Ji who became GURU at MID AGE..we had GURU AMARDASS JI who became GURU at Age 70++..we had Child GURUS... GURU HARGOBIND SAHIB JI...Guru HARKISHAN SAHIB JI and GURU GOBIND SINGH JI...
    We had GURUS that practised HINDU RITUALS for DECADES...(Bhai lehnna Ji and Bahi Amardass Ji)...we had Gurus that GREW UP in Households that had FATHER/Grandfather GURU - Guru Arjun Ji's Grandfather was Guru Amardass Ji and FATHER was GURU RAMDASS JI....Guru Teg bahadur Ji had Father Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji.. Cousin Guru HAR RAI JI..and great grand-Child Guru HARKISHAN JI before He attained GURGADEE !! AFTER the Passage of 3 GURUS who were BORN later than Him..

    SO GYAAN is GYAAN..age of the "Gyani" doesnt matter..he he...so IF a person doesnt wnat to "listen" to YOU..just because you are "young"..I am sure he/she wont listen to a 100 Fauja Singh Too !! (just because hes too old ??)..so DONT WORRY..just continue to offer your thoughts...freely ....:singhsippingcoffee:jios...
     
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  14. TigerStyleZ

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    LuckySingh ji thanks for response..
    Yes, you are right in this case we are all hypocrites, "figuratively". But to be honest.. even if it would be my child or brother.. I would say the same.. Straight ahed. Why should I lie and tell her/him that everything will work out fine? If we dont have guideline... we would all split up on several points.. like we are now sadly.... So from this example you can see what I mean... I would simply say that to my child, if you are willing to stay in Sikhi, you somewhere have to make compromises.. We all want something.. Example: My mind is full of Kaam, and if Guru ji wouldn´t say me to control. I simply would go mad- and worst case do a bad thing. My intention is not to offend someones feeling but to see it like it is.


    @ Gyaniji

    you explained that nice, and you are right on this point. Maybe because you have Gyaan as well?



    I still think that I am too naive, and still far away from what a gursikh is. thats why I said it, I know about all gurus, but I would never dare to say that I have the knowledge.. I just know one thing and that is : I know that I know nothing... I am just a bad mixxed coctaill... Somedays I am crazy, happy interested in any kind of things and somedays.. I am just silent ,thinking, "depressed"? I dont know how to explain ... I just feel so empty... I still have much to learn.. So here you can see as well what my Mann does... and I just need to find the balance of both the compensation.. and this I only got through Sikhi - through rehit - trough guidelines.. If I just determine one side where I would go?

    BTW: I am sorry, If I wrote something confusing, since my english isn´t the best and it is late.
     
    #13 TigerStyleZ, Oct 8, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
  15. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    In my opinion Waheguru had nothing to do with being born a girl. Waheguru sets the rules and leaves Creation to sort itself out. If we adopt this line of thinking, then Waheguru is also responsible for cancer, aids, destruction, earthquakes. This is a very Abrahamic attitude where everything happens for a reason, and everything is written and foretold. Hukam is not fate, it is where your will merges into what is true, and your actions become 'the right thing' to do.


    I am not quite sure what this has to do with cutting hair, there are women with histories of cancer that have breasts lopped off in order to minimise the risk of such. It is well known that sometimes people can be born in the wrong body, now this is bad enough, but to then intimate that some celestial power knowingly created this situation is not something I am willing to accept. Although Sikhism is about acceptance, how can you possibly know that gender reassignment is not within Hukam? How can you know what suffering people go through in the wrong body. Is the suffering of a man born as a woman any less than the suffering of a man born with no arms? would you ask that the armless man cease from looking into the options of false limbs because of Hukam? because he was doing something against the will of God? Again, in my opinion, the primary directive of Sikhsim is to offer yourself as a slave to Creator in the assistance of Creation. In order to be a slave to Creation, one needs to ensure one is at peace and able to assist others. To my mind, if one wishes to change gender, there are many opportunities for good seva to others in the same boat. The Sikh angle should not be 'do this', or 'do that', it should be 'find your peace and help others who cannot'.

    There were many Muslims and Hindus that believed in Guru Gobind Singhji, they also remained Muslims and Hindus.

    I hate rules, it intimates something you do not wish to do for a greater good. Better to have understanding, compassion, love

    I find it amusing that you assume this is some sexual need or want. This woman has been born into the wrong body, it must be an awful painful experience, the only 'evil' is that religion is being used as a stick to prolong this agony.

    What is it with this attitude that everything is about merging back to God. I could not care less about merging back with God, I never demerged from God, so it is a pointless concept. And if everything we do is so that God lets us back in again, then everything we do has no meaning whatsoever. The only reason to do anything, is that it is the right thing to do, those that act keeping one eye on eternal salvation, are no better than suicide bombers with one eye on heaven. As for taking life as it is, this is not within Sikhi, one should do ones best.

    Yes, I know, I suffer the same, on a different day, I may have agreed with you. However the condition that we suffer is unknown, it has no cure, we will suffer it to the day we die. Let us not inflict the same on those that know the cure peacesignmundahug
     
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  16. TigerStyleZ

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    [/QUOTE]In my opinion Waheguru had nothing to do with being born a girl. Waheguru sets the rules and leaves Creation to sort itself out. If we adopt this line of thinking, then Waheguru is also responsible for cancer, aids, destruction, earthquakes. This is a very Abrahamic attitude where everything happens for a reason, and everything is written and foretold. Hukam is not fate, it is where your will merges into what is true, and your actions become 'the right thing' to do.
    I am not quite sure what this has to do with cutting hair, there are women with histories of cancer that have breasts lopped off in order to minimise the risk of such. It is well known that sometimes people can be born in the wrong body, now this is bad enough, but to then intimate that some celestial power knowingly created this situation is not something I am willing to accept. Although Sikhism is about acceptance, how can you possibly know that gender reassignment is not within Hukam? How can you know what suffering people go through in the wrong body. Is the suffering of a man born as a woman any less than the suffering of a man born with no arms? would you ask that the armless man cease from looking into the options of false limbs because of Hukam? because he was doing something against the will of God? Again, in my opinion, the primary directive of Sikhsim is to offer yourself as a slave to Creator in the assistance of Creation. In order to be a slave to Creation, one needs to ensure one is at peace and able to assist others. To my mind, if one wishes to change gender, there are many opportunities for good seva to others in the same boat. The Sikh angle should not be 'do this', or 'do that', it should be 'find your peace and help others who cannot'.
    There were many Muslims and Hindus that believed in Guru Gobind Singhji, they also remained Muslims and Hindus.
    I hate rules, it intimates something you do not wish to do for a greater good. Better to have understanding, compassion, love
    I find it amusing that you assume this is some sexual need or want. This woman has been born into the wrong body, it must be an awful painful experience, the only 'evil' is that religion is being used as a stick to prolong this agony.
    What is it with this attitude that everything is about merging back to God. I could not care less about merging back with God, I never demerged from God, so it is a pointless concept. And if everything we do is so that God lets us back in again, then everything we do has no meaning whatsoever. The only reason to do anything, is that it is the right thing to do, those that act keeping one eye on eternal salvation, are no better than suicide bombers with one eye on heaven. As for taking life as it is, this is not within Sikhi, one should do ones best.
    :sippingcoffeemunda:
     
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  17. Harry Haller

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    thats a hard one, but in our hearts I think always know what the right thing to do is, once you have stripped the five thieves away, with pure feeling, if that makes sense

    well for me and you, we find peace when the wolf and the man are singing from the same songsheet. You must remember, I am not a fan of reincarnation, thus, this life is all I have, there is no merging for me, no pearly gates, no eternal life by the side of God. From that point of view, it is hugely important that every living day is spent in some sort of peace, rather than accumulating brownie points to cash in the day I die. I do not think our minds are evil, I think we are uneducated. We look to pleasure in the most basic fashions, unaware that truthful living, seva, connection, bring much much more pleasure, its different, you have to work for it, the most addictive pleasures are the ones that come easy.

    I do not do rules blind my young friend, I observe the speed limit because I know that if I do not, I may end up in prison, which is not a nice experience, I do not drink, as I know my liver will end up as that of a 90 year old, which is also not a nice experience, I do not do drugs, as I know that certain drugs will bring on a heart attack, and lead me to have surgery, which is definately not a nice experience. I suppose what I am trying to say is that there are rules which make sense, and rules which are there to control. Once humankind gets involved, the whole thing goes to pot! But for people like me, and maybe you, we have to find out for ourself, so that we can see what is man made, and what is from the divine.
     
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    #16 Harry Haller, Oct 10, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2012
  18. WWW

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    Not to be rude, but you cannot change your sex. You can mutilate your genitalia, but your going to be a girl for the rest of your life. I think a sex change will put you in the same mental situation you are in now, but with a mutilated vagina.

    Sorry to be blunt, not meant in a mean way.
     
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  19. Harry Haller

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    yes, we know this, but you can try and match your inside to your outside.

    Perhaps we could use the same logic to those born with multiple limbs,
     
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  20. WWW

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    i disagree, its not a limb, its a chromosome. I can self identify as a frog, but tattooing my skin green isn't the right course of action. If the science ever got to the point you could actually change your sex, I would be all for it, but its not, so genital mutilation is just silly IMHO.
     
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  21. findingmyway

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