To Live In Truth

[gur_meet]

Is to live in Truth same as truthful living?
Is the word truth same as Sach in gurbani?

These questions being asked here have a purpose. The purpose is to point out how dependency on translation and even selection of words in a translation leads to a different meaning.
Here is a Shabad in which those conversant with gurbani can observe the weakness in translation.


ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ[/FONT]ਮਹਲਾ[/FONT]੧[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Sireeraag Mehalaa 1 ||
Siree Raag, First Mehl:
[/FONT]ਰਾਮ[/FONT]ਨਾਮਿ[/FONT]ਮਨੁ[/FONT]ਬੇਧਿਆ[/FONT]ਅਵਰੁ[/FONT]ਕਿ[/FONT]ਕਰੀ[/FONT]ਵੀਚਾਰੁ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Raam Naam Man Baedhhiaa Avar K Karee Veechaar ||
My mind is pierced through by the Name of the Lord. What else should I contemplate?
[/FONT]ਸਬਦ[/FONT]ਸੁਰਤਿ[/FONT]ਸੁਖੁ[/FONT]ਊਪਜੈ[/FONT]ਪ੍ਰਭ[/FONT]ਰਾਤਉ[/FONT]ਸੁਖ[/FONT]ਸਾਰੁ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Sabadh Surath Sukh Oopajai Prabh Raatho Sukh Saar ||
Focusing your awareness on the Shabad, happiness wells up. Attuned to God, the most excellent peace is found.
[/FONT]ਜਿਉ[/FONT]ਭਾਵੈ[/FONT]ਤਿਉ[/FONT]ਰਾਖੁ[/FONT]ਤੂੰ[/FONT]ਮੈ[/FONT]ਹਰਿ[/FONT]ਨਾਮੁ[/FONT]ਅਧਾਰੁ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੧॥ [/FONT]Jio Bhaavai Thio Raakh Thoon Mai Har Naam Adhhaar ||1||
As it pleases You, please save me, Lord. The Name of the Lord is my Support. ||1||
[/FONT]ਮਨ[/FONT]ਰੇ[/FONT]ਸਾਚੀ[/FONT]ਖਸਮ[/FONT]ਰਜਾਇ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]Man Rae Saachee Khasam Rajaae ||
O mind, the Will of our Lord and Master is true.
[/FONT]ਜਿਨਿ[/FONT]ਤਨੁ[/FONT]ਮਨੁ[/FONT]ਸਾਜਿ[/FONT]ਸੀਗਾਰਿਆ[/FONT]ਤਿਸੁ[/FONT]ਸੇਤੀ[/FONT]ਲਿਵ[/FONT]ਲਾਇ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੧॥[/FONT]ਰਹਾਉ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Jin Than Man Saaj Seegaariaa This Saethee Liv Laae ||1|| Rehaao ||
Focus your love upon the One who created and adorned your body and mind. ||1||Pause||
[/FONT]ਤਨੁ[/FONT]ਬੈਸੰਤਰਿ[/FONT]ਹੋਮੀਐ[/FONT]ਇਕ[/FONT]ਰਤੀ[/FONT]ਤੋਲਿ[/FONT]ਕਟਾਇ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Than Baisanthar Homeeai Eik Rathee Thol Kattaae ||
If I cut my body into pieces, and burn them in the fire,
[/FONT]ਤਨੁ[/FONT]ਮਨੁ[/FONT]ਸਮਧਾ[/FONT]ਜੇ[/FONT]ਕਰੀ[/FONT]ਅਨਦਿਨੁ[/FONT]ਅਗਨਿ[/FONT]ਜਲਾਇ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Than Man Samadhhaa Jae Karee Anadhin Agan Jalaae ||
And if I make my body and mind into firewood, and night and day burn them in the fire,
[/FONT]ਹਰਿ[/FONT]ਨਾਮੈ[/FONT]ਤੁਲਿ[/FONT]ਨ[/FONT]ਪੁਜਈ[/FONT]ਜੇ[/FONT]ਲਖ[/FONT]ਕੋਟੀ[/FONT]ਕਰਮ[/FONT]ਕਮਾਇ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੨॥ [/FONT]Har Naamai Thul N Pujee Jae Lakh Kottee Karam Kamaae ||2||
And if I perform hundreds of thousands and millions of religious rituals-still, all these are not equal to the Name of the Lord. ||2||
[/FONT]ਅਰਧ[/FONT]ਸਰੀਰੁ[/FONT]ਕਟਾਈਐ[/FONT]ਸਿਰਿ[/FONT]ਕਰਵਤੁ[/FONT]ਧਰਾਇ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Aradhh Sareer Kattaaeeai Sir Karavath Dhharaae ||
If my body were cut in half, if a saw was put to my head,
[/FONT]ਤਨੁ[/FONT]ਹੈਮੰਚਲਿ[/FONT]ਗਾਲੀਐ[/FONT]ਭੀ[/FONT]ਮਨ[/FONT]ਤੇ[/FONT]ਰੋਗੁ[/FONT]ਨ[/FONT]ਜਾਇ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Than Haimanchal Gaaleeai Bhee Man Thae Rog N Jaae ||
And if my body were frozen in the Himalayas-even then, my mind would not be free of disease.
[/FONT]ਹਰਿ[/FONT]ਨਾਮੈ[/FONT]ਤੁਲਿ[/FONT]ਨ[/FONT]ਪੁਜਈ[/FONT]ਸਭ[/FONT]ਡਿਠੀ[/FONT]ਠੋਕਿ[/FONT]ਵਜਾਇ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੩॥ [/FONT]Har Naamai Thul N Pujee Sabh Ddithee Thok Vajaae ||3||
None of these are equal to the Name of the Lord. I have seen and tried and tested them all. ||3||
[/FONT]ਕੰਚਨ[/FONT]ਕੇ[/FONT]ਕੋਟ[/FONT]ਦਤੁ[/FONT]ਕਰੀ[/FONT]ਬਹੁ[/FONT]ਹੈਵਰ[/FONT]ਗੈਵਰ[/FONT]ਦਾਨੁ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Kanchan Kae Kott Dhath Karee Bahu Haivar Gaivar Dhaan ||
If I made a donation of castles of gold, and gave lots of fine horses and wondrous elephants in charity,
[/FONT]ਭੂਮਿ[/FONT]ਦਾਨੁ[/FONT]ਗਊਆ[/FONT]ਘਣੀ[/FONT]ਭੀ[/FONT]ਅੰਤਰਿ[/FONT]ਗਰਬੁ[/FONT]ਗੁਮਾਨੁ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Bhoom Dhaan Gooaa Ghanee Bhee Anthar Garab Gumaan ||
And if I made donations of land and cows-even then, pride and ego would still be within me.
[/FONT]ਰਾਮ[/FONT]ਨਾਮਿ[/FONT]ਮਨੁ[/FONT]ਬੇਧਿਆ[/FONT]ਗੁਰਿ[/FONT]ਦੀਆ[/FONT]ਸਚੁ[/FONT]ਦਾਨੁ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੪[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Raam Naam Man Baedhhiaa Gur Dheeaa Sach Dhaan ||4||[/FONT]
The Name of the Lord has pierced my mind; the Guru has given me this true gift. ||4||[/FONT]
ਮਨਹਠ[/FONT]ਬੁਧੀ[/FONT]ਕੇਤੀਆ[/FONT]ਕੇਤੇ[/FONT]ਬੇਦ[/FONT]ਬੀਚਾਰ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Manehath Budhhee Kaetheeaa Kaethae Baedh Beechaar ||
There are so many stubborn-minded intelligent people, and so many who contemplate the Vedas.
[/FONT]ਕੇਤੇ[/FONT]ਬੰਧਨ[/FONT]ਜੀਅ[/FONT]ਕੇ[/FONT]ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ[/FONT]ਮੋਖ[/FONT]ਦੁਆਰ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Kaethae Bandhhan Jeea Kae Guramukh Mokh Dhuaar ||
There are so many entanglements for the soul. Only as Gurmukh do we find the Gate of Liberation.[/FONT]
ਸਚਹੁ[/FONT]ਓਰੈ[/FONT]ਸਭੁ[/FONT]ਕੋ[/FONT]ਉਪਰਿ[/FONT]ਸਚੁ[/FONT]ਆਚਾਰੁ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੫॥ [/FONT]
Sachahu Ourai Sabh Ko Oupar Sach Aachaar ||5||[/FONT]
Truth is higher than everything; but higher still is truthful living. ||5||[/FONT]
ਸਭੁ[/FONT]ਕੋ[/FONT]ਊਚਾ[/FONT]ਆਖੀਐ[/FONT]ਨੀਚੁ[/FONT]ਨ[/FONT]ਦੀਸੈ[/FONT]ਕੋਇ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Sabh Ko Oochaa Aakheeai Neech N Dheesai Koe ||
[/FONT]Call everyone exalted; no one seems lowly.
[/FONT]ਇਕਨੈ[/FONT]ਭਾਂਡੇ[/FONT]ਸਾਜਿਐ[/FONT]ਇਕੁ[/FONT]ਚਾਨਣੁ[/FONT]ਤਿਹੁ[/FONT]ਲੋਇ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Eikanai Bhaanddae Saajiai Eik Chaanan Thihu Loe ||
[/FONT]The One Lord has fashioned the vessels, and His One Light pervades the three worlds.
[/FONT]ਕਰਮਿ[/FONT]ਮਿਲੈ[/FONT]ਸਚੁ[/FONT]ਪਾਈਐ[/FONT]ਧੁਰਿ[/FONT]ਬਖਸ[/FONT]ਨ[/FONT]ਮੇਟੈ[/FONT]ਕੋਇ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੬॥ [/FONT]Karam Milai Sach Paaeeai Dhhur Bakhas N Maettai Koe ||6||
Receiving His Grace, we obtain Truth. No one can erase His Primal Blessing. ||6||
[/FONT]ਾਧੁ[/FONT]ਮਿਲੈ[/FONT]ਸਾਧੂ[/FONT]ਜਨੈ[/FONT]ਸੰਤੋਖੁ[/FONT]ਵਸੈ[/FONT]ਗੁਰ[/FONT]ਭਾਇ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Saadhh Milai Saadhhoo Janai Santhokh Vasai Gur Bhaae ||
When one Holy person meets another Holy person, they abide in contentment, through the Love of the Guru.
[/FONT]ਅਕਥ[/FONT]ਕਥਾ[/FONT]ਵੀਚਾਰੀਐ[/FONT]ਜੇ[/FONT]ਸਤਿਗੁਰ[/FONT]ਮਾਹਿ[/FONT]ਸਮਾਇ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Akathh Kathhaa Veechaareeai Jae Sathigur Maahi Samaae ||
They contemplate the Unspoken Speech, merging in absorption in the True Guru.
[/FONT]ਪੀ[/FONT]ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ[/FONT]ਸੰਤੋਖਿਆ[/FONT]ਦਰਗਹਿ[/FONT]ਪੈਧਾ[/FONT]ਜਾਇ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੭॥ [/FONT]Pee Anmrith Santhokhiaa Dharagehi Paidhhaa Jaae ||7||
Drinking in the Ambrosial Nectar, they are contented; they go to the Court of the Lord in robes of honor. ||7||
[/FONT]ਘਟਿ[/FONT]ਘਟਿ[/FONT]ਵਾਜੈ[/FONT]ਕਿੰਗੁਰੀ[/FONT]ਅਨਦਿਨੁ[/FONT]ਸਬਦਿ[/FONT]ਸੁਭਾਇ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Ghatt Ghatt Vaajai Kinguree Anadhin Sabadh Subhaae ||
In each and every heart the Music of the Lord's Flute vibrates, night and day, with sublime love for the Shabad.
[/FONT]ਵਿਰਲੇ[/FONT]ਕਉ[/FONT]ਸੋਝੀ[/FONT]ਪਈ[/FONT]ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ[/FONT]ਮਨੁ[/FONT]ਸਮਝਾਇ[/FONT]॥ [/FONT]Viralae Ko Sojhee Pee Guramukh Man Samajhaae ||
Only those few who become Gurmukh understand this by instructing their minds.
[/FONT]ਨਾਨਕ[/FONT]ਨਾਮੁ[/FONT]ਨ[/FONT]ਵੀਸਰੈ[/FONT]ਛੂਟੈ[/FONT]ਸਬਦੁ[/FONT]ਕਮਾਇ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੮॥੧੪॥ [/FONT]Naanak Naam N Veesarai Shhoottai Sabadh Kamaae ||8||14||
O Nanak, do not forget the Naam. Practicing the Shabad you shall be saved. ||8||14||
[/FONT]ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ[/FONT] ([/FONT]ਮ[/FONT]: [/FONT]੧[/FONT]) [/FONT]ਗੁਰੂ[/FONT]ਗ੍ਰੰਥ[/FONT]ਸਾਹਿਬ[/FONT] : [/FONT]ਅੰਗ[/FONT]੬੨[/FONT]ਪੰ[/FONT]. [/FONT]੧੫[/FONT]


Let us look at one pungtee and the translation.[/FONT]
ਸਚਹੁ[/FONT]ਓਰੈ[/FONT]ਸਭੁ[/FONT]ਕੋ[/FONT]ਉਪਰਿ[/FONT]ਸਚੁ[/FONT]ਆਚਾਰੁ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੫॥[/FONT] Sachahu Ourai Sabh Ko Oupar Sach Aachaar ||5||[/FONT]
Truth is higher than everything; but higher still is truthful living. ||5||[/FONT]

When we look at the gurbani words then the first words are ਸਚਹੁ[/FONT]ਓਰੈ[/FONT] . Here the words mean not reaching Sach i.e. ' below knowing the sach' .

To confirm several sources were checked. In gurbani Searcher android version there is differences in Punjabi explanation and English translation.

In another site gurugranthdarpan.com the Punjabi meaning of gurbani words are given the meaning came up different from the translation.

Then I checked up the meaning in sankhya 2 of tika by Bhai veer Singh ji . Here the meaning stated is
" Sach toh sab kuchh hethan heh, (eh) sach da achar( arthat naam da simran sab jogan,homan,tapan,dana,siahnpan teh vidya aadh toh) uchah heh.

Based on this the possible translation is “ All else ( yoga , havan , tapph ,charity etc) is below reaching Sach (truth) , the highest is Sach Achar ( the true deed – naam simran) “

Thus the the translation “Truth is higher than everything; but higher still is truthful living” does not in any way match the gurbani words.

But this wrong translation has been picked up and often quoted by many. This is just one example.

The learning point here is that gurbani words translation does no justice to the original.
Another word is Hukam. The meaning is only nearer to the words will or command but not exactly same. Hukam exists everywhere but like karta (the creator) is not openly perceptible.
Same way The Mool Manter words are not translatable in true sense.
Better way would be to use original in translation with a near translatable word or meaning in bracket. This would then be nearer to original.
The English language over the years has been adopting foreign language words. Why not the Gurbani words as well.
My appeal to SPN members is examine this and adopt gurbani words use.
Let SPN adopt the Gurbani words first. It is for the SPN members Sangat (the spiritual group ) to decide this.

Let us look at one pungtee and the translation.[/FONT]
ਸਚਹੁ [/FONT]ਓਰੈ[/FONT] ਸਭੁ[/FONT] ਕੋ[/FONT] ਉਪਰਿ[/FONT] ਸਚੁ[/FONT] ਆਚਾਰੁ[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੫॥
[/FONT] Sachahu Ourai Sabh Ko Oupar Sach Aachaar ||5||[/FONT]
Truth is higher than everything; but higher still is truthful living. ||5||[/FONT]

When we look at the gurbani words then the first words are ਸਚਹੁ[/FONT]ਓਰੈ[/FONT] . Here the words mean not reaching Sach i.e. ' below knowing the sach' .

To confirm several sources were checked. In gurbani Searcher android version there is differences in Punjabi explanation and English translation.

In another site gurugranthdarpan.com the Punjabi meaning of gurbani words are given the meaning came up different from the translation.

Then I checked up the meaning in sankhya 2 of tika by Bhai veer Singh ji . Here the meaning stated is
" Sach toh sab kuchh hethan heh, (eh) sach da achar( arthat naam da simran sab jogan,homan,tapan,dana,siahnpan teh vidya aadh toh) uchah heh.

Based on this the possible translation is “ All else ( yoga , havan , tapph ,charity etc) is below reaching Sach (truth) , the highest is Sach Achar ( the true deed – naam simran) “

Thus the the translation “Truth is higher than everything; but higher still is truthful living” does not in any way match the gurbani words.

But this wrong translation has been picked up and often quoted by many. This is just one example.

The learning point here is that gurbani words translation does no justice to the original.
Another word is Hukam. The meaning is only nearer to the words will or command but not exactly same. Hukam exists everywhere but like karta (the creator) is not openly perceptible.

Same way The Mool Manter words are not translatable in true sense.
Better way would be to use original in translation with a near translatable word or meaning in bracket. This would then be nearer to original.

The English language over the years has been adopting foreign language words. Why not the Gurbani words as well.

My appeal to SPN members is examine this and adopt gurbani words use.
Let SPN adopt the Gurbani words first. It is for the SPN members Sangat (the spiritual group ) to decide this.

 

[chazSingh]

thank you Gurmeet Ji for the amazing shabads that you have posted and the concerns about translations..

if there is one thing i have realized on my so far short journey through Gurbani and putting Gurbani into practice...is not to dwell too much on things i do not fully understand...

This journey has an amazing way to bring about understanding of gurbani concepts in ways we just couldn't imagine...

There are so many layers to truthful living..

me personally...i want to live as truthfully as possible...
but this 'living truthfully' is changing every day as waheguru ji helps me realize the 'actual truth' and then it starts to become LIVING IN TRUTH

God Bless you ji on your journey to realize this truth!

Thank you for posting on the thread

 

[Luckysingh]

I understand that there is quite a difference between experiencing the ''absolute truth'' and living truthfully.

The 'righteous living truthfully' is in dharma conduct, or as in per dharm khand in japji sahib,
It's like the starting point from the dharamsaal to which we can begin to progress to other khands via naam jap/simran.

The ''absolute truth'' as I describe it, is the pure feeling of divine love and truth that is like the heart lotus blossoming in gurbani.
Gurbani makes references to it as Hirda. hirdey kamal or the spiritual heart.
I also think of it as the seat of the soul or atma/paramatma within.

(may go off topic if i go into detail here, but it may need another thread).

As manmukhs, we let our Mind be the master of soul/atma.
A Gurmukh, lets the Atma/paramatma/god be the master of the Mind.

Thus, the gurmukh is letting the atma/god soul run the whole show.... and this is when you are in Pure HUKAM.

When 1st panj piara Bhai daya ram came forward, it was the pure love in hirda from the atma telling the mind to step forward.
When Guruji's gave shaheedi, it was also the same love telling mind to go.

This is way beyond ''righteous truthful living'', because this is Pure Hukam.

 

[chazSingh]

I understand that there is quite a difference between experiencing the ''absolute truth'' and living truthfully.

The 'righteous living truthfully' is in dharma conduct, or as in per dharm khand in japji sahib,
It's like the starting point from the dharamsaal to which we can begin to progress to other khands via naam jap/simran.

The ''absolute truth'' as I describe it, is the pure feeling of divine love and truth that is like the heart lotus blossoming in gurbani.
Gurbani makes references to it as Hirda. hirdey kamal or the spiritual heart.
I also think of it as the seat of the soul or atma/paramatma within.

(may go off topic if i go into detail here, but it may need another thread).

As manmukhs, we let our Mind be the master of soul/atma.
A Gurmukh, lets the Atma/paramatma/god be the master of the Mind.

Thus, the gurmukh is letting the atma/god soul run the whole show.... and this is when you are in Pure HUKAM.

When 1st panj piara Bhai daya ram came forward, it was the pure love in hirda from the atma telling the mind to step forward.
When Guruji's gave shaheedi, it was also the same love telling mind to go.

This is way beyond ''righteous truthful living'', because this is Pure Hukam.

this is where i think it changing from 'truthfully living' to 'living in truth' with the flow of Hukam that pours from the soul/Atma/Paramatma

Thanks for posting ji

 

[Luckysingh]

this is where i think it changing from 'truthfully living' to 'living in truth' with the flow of Hukam that pours from the soul/Atma/Paramatma

Thanks for posting ji

I think I could see that you were going this way with your posts.
It's an experience and feeling that you have to encounter and it is very difficult to put into words.

So, the ''Living in truth'' as you called it (experiencing absolute truth)
is completely Unconditional and not about doing something righteous.

It's about getting absorbed in that Divine Love of Truth.
You feel the depth in this spiritual heart that is central in chest and to the right of the physical one !

 

[chazSingh]

I think I could see that you were going this way with your posts.
It's an experience and feeling that you have to encounter and it is very difficult to put into words.

So, the ''Living in truth'' as you called it (experiencing absolute truth)
is completely Unconditional and not about doing something righteous.

It's about getting absorbed in that Divine Love of Truth.
You feel the depth in this spiritual heart that is central in chest and to the right of the physical one !

once in that state of being as you describe above, i would imagine the act of doing something righteous isn't an option amongst other options...but the only option...something instinctual, something you do intuitively because it comes from deep within....from the soul/atma/paramatma as an attribute of Waheguru Ji...as an attribute of your true self...

until then however, trying to tip the balance from negative thoughts and actions, into positive thoughts and truthful actions via our perceived effort is definitely a must as Gurbani prescribes...

just my current feelings ji.

God Bless

 

[Harry Haller]

Well gentlemen, congratulations are in order! between you all you have managed to put an entirely Vedic slant on one of the most Sikhi sayings going, namely that truthful living is nothing of the sort, I mean, lets face it guys, its so damn hard living in that truth, having to do truthful things, the right thing, but know what, I think I might try this new fangled Sikhi, so let me get this right, I can stop attempting to live truthfully, stop being honest with myself and others, and just wait until it comes naturally and does not need any effort at all, and, I can, like, achieve this by mumbling and stuff!

Brilliant! mystery solved, Yogi Bhajan I salute you, now what was one of his favourite sayings again, oh yeah, if you can't make it, fake it!

 

[chazSingh]

Well gentlemen, congratulations are in order! between you all you have managed to put an entirely Vedic slant on one of the most Sikhi sayings going, namely that truthful living is nothing of the sort, I mean, lets face it guys, its so damn hard living in that truth, having to do truthful things, the right thing, but know what, I think I might try this new fangled Sikhi, so let me get this right, I can stop attempting to live truthfully, stop being honest with myself and others, and just wait until it comes naturally and does not need any effort at all, and, I can, like, achieve this by mumbling and stuff!

Brilliant! mystery solved, Yogi Bhajan I salute you, now what was one of his favourite sayings again, oh yeah, if you can't make it, fake it!

first of all.....

NO ONE has ONCE said you should not be trying to live truthfully, or make effort to live truthfully...so please stop making judgements...read the comments that people have said.

We should always try to tip the balance into a positive state..always...

second of all....

some people are naturally good people, honest, trustworthy, caring...that's all they know...that's who they are

others try to be truthful, nice, kind, caring, forgiving because their religion or people around them tell them to be so...but deep down they are not like this (Ego, anger, desire, greed, attachment) have a greater hold of them...fake

how does a person go from one to the other...from a fakester to the genuine article? something must need to change within that person...consciosness, greater understanding of life, of creation to allow this growth? greater conscious awareness of reality...

No one is talking about 'MUMBLING and STUFF" lol

it is your mind that cannot see the difference in mumbling...to uttering/meditating/Contemplating/embracing/enshrining/ the WORDS of GOD in your heart...and then becoming the words of Gurbani in your DAILY life....

but you go ahead and continue to categorize this all as just mere MUMBLING lol

Sometimes i feel you are fighting bewteen what you read in Gurbani to what you want Gurbani to be for you..

but you are free to your opinion and your own experience of gurbani...as am I...
so please continue to post you comments.

For a start it would be good to hear where you think people have stated that no effort is required into truthful actions and should just sit around and do nothing until the change just happens within them.
Also what Vedic practices you think are going on, and where they have been stated.

Thank you ji

 

[Harry Haller]

Oh you guys with your shouty capitals and your definitive inside knowledge on everything Sikhi!

my argument is very simple, living truthfully is hard, it is not easy, it is done through discipline, habit and desire, and if done long enough, becomes a habit, and becomes easier, your argument, correct me if I am wrong, is that it comes from mumbling, or as you call it 'naam simram', from grace, from hukam, my oh my how convenient!

So, the ''Living in truth'' as you called it (experiencing absolute truth)
is completely Unconditional and not about doing something righteous.

there you go Chazji one quote

Sometimes i feel you are fighting bewteen what you read in Gurbani to what you want Gurbani to be for you..

No I am just countering the airy fairy new age interpretations you guys keep posting, my big sis now deceased would have had little time for it, as she had little time to counter it, but me, I have all the time in the world, its called debate, discussion, you know, where someone disagrees with what you have written and writes something contrary, now you can either shout and scream and call me a heretic, which suits me fine, or you can leave everytime you find something you do not agree with, which also suits me fine, or you can stay and calmly discuss, which suits me better, as people reading these posts get a balanced view of what is going on.

Also what Vedic practices you think are going on, and where they have been stated.

Sikhism is in my view a pragmatic religion, its very very simple, I think you guys like to overcomplicate matters, to make it harder to understand, I think there is an elitism going on, you use words I find hard to understand, and concepts that make no sense to me, maybe I am just not smart enough for your brand of Sikhi!

sounds vedic to me! lol

 

[gur_meet]

Sikhism is in my view a pragmatic religion, its very very simple, I think you guys like to overcomplicate matters, to make it harder to understand, I think there is an elitism going on, you use words I find hard to understand, and concepts that make no sense to me, maybe I am just not smart enough for your brand of Sikhi!

sounds vedic to me! lol

Sikhi definitely is very pragmatic.
Gurbani words are simple for everyone to understand . Here is an example :

ਏ ਮਨ ਮੇਰਿਆ ਤੂ ਸਦਾ ਰਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਲੇ ॥
Eae Man Maeriaa Thoo Sadhaa Rahu Har Naalae ||
O my mind, remain always with the Lord.
ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਅਨੰਦ (ਮ: ੩) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੯੧੭ ਪੰ. ੪

We read and recite these words daily . Simple words.
What are your views . How this can be done ?

 

[chazSingh]

Oh you guys with your shouty capitals and your definitive inside knowledge on everything Sikhi!

appologies with the capitals..i use the capitals to highlight something sometimes...not to come across as shouty...appologies

my argument is very simple, living truthfully is hard, it is not easy, it is done through discipline, habit and desire, and if done long enough, becomes a habit, and becomes easier, your argument, correct me if I am wrong, is that it comes from mumbling, or as you call it 'naam simram', from grace, from hukam, my oh my how convenient!

have to correct you here....

on this thread we are discussing one view of truthful living i.e. "truthful/righteous deeds, honesty, kindness etc etc'

to

living in Truth: to live amongst all once you have been graced with the experience of the TRUTH of reality which is revealed within yourself (as gurbani also describes)

we are not just talking about actions that become habit and becomes a part of your character.

so please discuss the two...and your opinions on both..
Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width=""> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> So, the ''Living in truth'' as you called it (experiencing absolute truth)
is completely Unconditional and not about doing something righteous. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
there you go Chazji one quote

Quote is invalid to your argument lol

We all do righteous things in our lives...and we should continue to do so which i have mentioned in my previous posts...

can i then say i have experienced absolute TRUTH, that god has revealed the complete TRUTH of EVERYTHING to me...

no... until then i am not LIVING IN TRUTH regardless of all the great wonderful righteous things i do...

it is also a righteous thing to go seek the truth of everything..of creation of reality and taste it for yourself...that to me is also part of righteous living...i owe it to myself to not be living in a fake dream of how i currently see the world but to know the absolute truth...otherwise my life has gone in vain.

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width=""> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> Sometimes i feel you are fighting bewteen what you read in Gurbani to what you want Gurbani to be for you.. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
No I am just countering the airy fairy new age interpretations you guys keep posting, my big sis now deceased would have had little time for it, as she had little time to counter it, but me, I have all the time in the world, its called debate, discussion, you know, where someone disagrees with what you have written and writes something contrary, now you can either shout and scream and call me a heretic, which suits me fine, or you can leave everytime you find something you do not agree with, which also suits me fine, or you can stay and calmly discuss, which suits me better, as people reading these posts get a balanced view of what is going on.

always an open discussion...difference is i agree with your views of truthful living as you posted in your first post..that is obviously a part of sikhi

you on the other hand just slap a tag of Vedic, Hairy Fairy on anything that remotely sounds mystic or a little 'crazy'

i will post a shabd from Gurbani that you will probably state is just full of hairy fairy vedic nonsense or something...but i will post it in a new thread so we can discuss this without going off topic here...


Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width=""> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> Also what Vedic practices you think are going on, and where they have been stated. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Sikhism is in my view a pragmatic religion, its very very simple, I think you guys like to overcomplicate matters, to make it harder to understand, I think there is an elitism going on, you use words I find hard to understand, and concepts that make no sense to me, maybe I am just not smart enough for your brand of Sikhi!

sounds vedic to me! lol

i think you are just agreeing with Gurbani...in that many of sikhi's ideas, experiences and concepts are way beyond the intellect...and can only be experienced first hand and 'as hard as steel' to put into words...

for example..."Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the Mansion of the Lord's Presence is revealed within the home of one's own heart"

i mean, can we really fathom what this, or what it will be like...never...not until it happens. but again...it just sounds airy fairy and should just be discounted...

 

[Harry Haller]

Sikhi definitely is very pragmatic.
Gurbani words are simple for everyone to understand . Here is an example :

ਏ ਮਨ ਮੇਰਿਆ ਤੂ ਸਦਾ ਰਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਲੇ ॥
Eae Man Maeriaa Thoo Sadhaa Rahu Har Naalae ||
O my mind, remain always with the Lord.
ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਅਨੰਦ (ਮ: ੩) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੯੧੭ ਪੰ. ੪

We read and recite these words daily . Simple words.
What are your views . How this can be done ?

let me guess uhmmmmm mumbling!

well in my view, and it is only my humble view, the name of the Lord is 'truth' so how can our mind remain truthful? well I am afraid its boring discipline and habit, or I suppose you could always fill it with something else, so there is no room for untruths but does that actually achieve anything?

 

[chazSingh]

No I am just countering the airy fairy new age interpretations you guys keep posting,

Also ji,

What part of what myself and some members write...do you deem as being airy fairy...
for further discussion it is good to know what you find airy fairy new age...so that we are all on the right page

 

[chazSingh]

let me guess uhmmmmm mumbling!

well in my view, and it is only my humble view, the name of the Lord is 'truth' so how can our mind remain truthful? well I am afraid its boring discipline and habit, or I suppose you could always fill it with something else, so there is no room for untruths but does that actually achieve anything?

but Truth is such a open word...
just speaking the truth? about what? about day to day things? a great thing to do...i agree...

can i experience the Truth of existance thereby living in Truth (true reality) by mere good deeds or righteous living done through personal effort and habit?

well it will create a good, positive, truthful environment for me to seek the Truth...rather than getting involved in corruption, greed, anger, hate, dishonesty...

so you are definitely correct on this in my opinion.

the mumbling...remember...these are not normal words and vibrations...and we are hoping that these words and vibrations that we are presented with in the outerworld...help to connect our consciousness to the same vibrations/Shabad that is flowing within your being...within yourself...through which we are hoping we learn of the absolute truth.

so what you call mumbling.....i can only describe as something so much more profoundly amazing beyond words...

on the outside...of course it will look like mumbling lol (and people will judge it as
mumbling)....

on the inside however...well...that's a completely diffferent story

This sounds very airy fairy but i truely believe in what gurbani says.

 

[gur_meet]

let me guess uhmmmmm mumbling!

well in my view, and it is only my humble view, the name of the Lord is 'truth' so how can our mind remain truthful? well I am afraid its boring discipline and habit, or I suppose you could always fill it with something else, so there is no room for untruths but does that actually achieve anything?

I think there is a basic difference here.

The mumbling you talk about and simran as advised by guruji in gurbani are different.

I would call Mumbaling as that which is just repeating in mind. No involvement of heat and concentration. One starts and ends something without it bringing any change.

The Simran which Guruji advice has feeling of inner love attached with it. There is concentration on words. There is a thought or idea attached.
Simran is living the gurbani.Only a broader view of Truthful Living can enable a person to live gurbani.

If gurbani says :

ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਦਾ ਹੈ ਨਾਲੇ ॥
Gur Maerai Sang Sadhaa Hai Naalae ||
My Guru is always with me, near at hand.
ਸਿਮਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਤਿਸੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਲੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Simar Simar This Sadhaa Samhaalae ||1|| Rehaao ||
Meditating, meditating in remembrance on Him, I cherish Him forever. ||1||Pause||
ਆਸਾ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੩੯੪ ਪੰ. ੩

Then simran is required here. The Simran is to feel the presence of Guru within. Keep doing this simran. This is how communion with Shabad Guru within starts. An intuitive guidance.

This is simran.

Mere repetition of shabad words without any feeling or direction would be termed mumbling.

 

[kggr001]

let me guess uhmmmmm mumbling!

well in my view, and it is only my humble view, the name of the Lord is 'truth' so how can our mind remain truthful? well I am afraid its boring discipline and habit, or I suppose you could always fill it with something else, so there is no room for untruths but does that actually achieve anything?

If you would mumble that, you would achive nothing, that part in Gurbani is about Guru(enlightened person) saying that his mind remains always with the Guru.

We should all try to live in truth. Living in the truth is very hard it's harder then lifting the heaviest boulder on earth literally and figuratively speaking.
This world is like a picture painted in our heads that we can't take away, however like gurbani mentions it, it's nothing more then a illusion(something not permanent) only the lord himself is permanent.

Like I've mentioned in the other posts, I believe that religion is just there to keep you motivated on the path. Like when I read the gurbani and read about how Guru's lived beyond the illusion of this world, I too want to reach that point where I can shatter that wall with that picture(illusion), and live in the truth.

Sewa, sharing and meditation can help you living in the truth, what sewa does is makes you feel lower then other people, meaning that it gradually takes away you ego(pride), at first you might have some anger of doing sewa, but in the long run it will turn into acceptance and you won't feel anger anymore. Sharing is also important it helps you control your greed and attachment. Then there is meditation which seperates you from the worldly illusions. Doing it often will make you feel in your daily life that this world is nothing more then a illusion.

 

[chazSingh]

If you would mumble that you would achive nothing, that part in Gurbani is about Guru(enlightened person) saying that his mind remains always with the Guru.

We should all try to live in truth. Living in the truth is very hard it's harder then lifting the heaviest boulder on earth literally and figuratively speaking.
This world is like a picture painted in our heads that we can't take away, however like gurbani mentions it, it's nothing more then a illusion(something not permanent) only the lord himself is permanent.

Like I've mentioned in the other posts, I believe that religion is just there to keep you motivated on the path. Like when I read the gurbani and read about how Guru's lived beyond the illusion of this world, I too want to reach that point where I can shatter that wall with that picture(illusion), and live in the truth.

Sewa, sharing and meditation can help you living in the truth, what sewa does is makes you feel lower then other people, meaning that it gradually takes away you ego(pride), at first you might have some anger of doing sewa, but in the long run it will turn into acceptance and you won't feel anger anymore. Sharing is also important it helps you control your greed and attachment. Then there is meditation which seperates you from the illusions. Doing it often will make you feel in your daily life that this world is nothing more then a illusion.

Thanks you ji..

i wish i could right so clearly as yourself

 

[kggr001]

Also I want to add something.

Lords greatness doesn't have to be expressed verbally, like it's often mentioned in GGS ji that the lord is formless, beyond birth and self existant, limitless and infinite, if you start imagining him you will fail no matter how many times you try and how hard you try, simply cause he is beyond our comprehension, however you did praise him by realising his transcendence and greatness with your mind and nothing verbally could express that.

When your reading the gurbani concentrated(serious), your praising the lord more by realising things like I've mentioned above, then your verbally praising him.

 

[Sherdil]

1. to be on the outside as you are in the inside
2. to not be hypocritical
3. to follow the laws of truth, to implement them and live them

the laws of truth are the wisdom encapsulated in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, so living them is different to japping them, to really embrace them so they become habit is to me, what being a Sikh is all about

I feel Harry ji is on to something. Indeed, recognizing truth and living truthfully are separate matters. Perhaps living truthfully is simply living without hypocrisy. In the famous “Fools argue over meat and flesh” shabadh, Guru ji was highlighting that very same hypocrisy, which arises from a lack of understanding about the world around us. (Note: ghian dhian means wisdom and attention respectively, i.e. obtaining wisdom and internalizing that wisdom). I believe this shabadh cuts to the very heart of the topic:


(page 1290)

ਮਃ ੧ ॥
मः १ ॥
Mėhlā 1.
First Mehl:
ਮਾਸੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਝਗੜੇ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੈ ॥
मासु मासु करि मूरखु झगड़े गिआनु धिआनु नही जाणै ॥
Mās mās kar mūrakẖ jẖagṛe gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān nahī jāṇai.
The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.
ਕਉਣੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਉਣੁ ਸਾਗੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਕਿਸੁ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਪ ਸਮਾਣੇ ॥
कउणु मासु कउणु सागु कहावै किसु महि पाप समाणे ॥
Ka▫uṇ mās ka▫uṇ sāg kahāvai kis mėh pāp samāṇe.
What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?
ਗੈਂਡਾ ਮਾਰਿ ਹੋਮ ਜਗ ਕੀਏ ਦੇਵਤਿਆ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੇ ॥
गैंडा मारि होम जग कीए देवतिआ की बाणे ॥
Gaiʼndā mār hom jag kī▫e ḏeviṯi▫ā kī bāṇe.
It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.
ਮਾਸੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਬੈਸਿ ਨਕੁ ਪਕੜਹਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਮਾਣਸ ਖਾਣੇ ॥
मासु छोडि बैसि नकु पकड़हि राती माणस खाणे ॥
Mās cẖẖod bais nak pakṛėh rāṯī māṇas kẖāṇe.
Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.
ਫੜੁ ਕਰਿ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੋ ਦਿਖਲਾਵਹਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਸੂਝੈ ॥
फड़ु करि लोकां नो दिखलावहि गिआनु धिआनु नही सूझै ॥
Faṛ kar lokāʼn no ḏikẖlāvahi gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān nahī sūjẖai.
They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.
ਨਾਨਕ ਅੰਧੇ ਸਿਉ ਕਿਆ ਕਹੀਐ ਕਹੈ ਨ ਕਹਿਆ ਬੂਝੈ ॥
नानक अंधे सिउ किआ कहीऐ कहै न कहिआ बूझै ॥
Nānak anḏẖe si▫o ki▫ā kahī▫ai kahai na kahi▫ā būjẖai.
O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.
ਅੰਧਾ ਸੋਇ ਜਿ ਅੰਧੁ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਿ ਲੋਚਨ ਨਾਹੀ ॥
अंधा सोइ जि अंधु कमावै तिसु रिदै सि लोचन नाही ॥
Anḏẖā so▫e jė anḏẖ kamāvai ṯis riḏai sė locẖan nāhī.
They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.
ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਕੀ ਰਕਤੁ ਨਿਪੰਨੇ ਮਛੀ ਮਾਸੁ ਨ ਖਾਂਹੀ ॥
मात पिता की रकतु निपंने मछी मासु न खांही ॥
Māṯ piṯā kī rakaṯ nipanne macẖẖī mās na kẖāʼnhī.
They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat.
ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਪੁਰਖੈ ਜਾਂ ਨਿਸਿ ਮੇਲਾ ਓਥੈ ਮੰਧੁ ਕਮਾਹੀ ॥
इसत्री पुरखै जां निसि मेला ओथै मंधु कमाही ॥
Isṯarī purkẖai jāʼn nis melā othai manḏẖ kamāhī.
But when men and women meet in the night, they come together in the flesh.
ਮਾਸਹੁ ਨਿੰਮੇ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਜੰਮੇ ਹਮ ਮਾਸੈ ਕੇ ਭਾਂਡੇ ॥
मासहु निमे मासहु जमे हम मासै के भांडे ॥
Māsahu nimme māsahu jamme ham māsai ke bẖāʼnde.
In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.
ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਕਛੁ ਸੂਝੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਚਤੁਰੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਪਾਂਡੇ ॥
गिआनु धिआनु कछु सूझै नाही चतुरु कहावै पांडे ॥
Gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān kacẖẖ sūjẖai nāhī cẖaṯur kahāvai pāʼnde.
You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.
ਬਾਹਰ ਕਾ ਮਾਸੁ ਮੰਦਾ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਘਰ ਕਾ ਮਾਸੁ ਚੰਗੇਰਾ ॥
बाहर का मासु मंदा सुआमी घर का मासु चंगेरा ॥
Bāhar kā mās manḏā su▫āmī gẖar kā mās cẖangerā.
O master, you believe that flesh on the outside is bad, but the flesh of those in your own home is good.
ਜੀਅ ਜੰਤ ਸਭਿ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਹੋਏ ਜੀਇ ਲਇਆ ਵਾਸੇਰਾ ॥
जीअ जंत सभि मासहु होए जीइ लइआ वासेरा ॥
Jī▫a janṯ sabẖ māsahu ho▫e jī▫e la▫i▫ā vāserā.
All beings and creatures are flesh; the soul has taken up its home in the flesh.
ਅਭਖੁ ਭਖਹਿ ਭਖੁ ਤਜਿ ਛੋਡਹਿ ਅੰਧੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਜਿਨ ਕੇਰਾ ॥
अभखु भखहि भखु तजि छोडहि अंधु गुरू जिन केरा ॥
Abẖakẖ bẖakẖėh bẖakẖ ṯaj cẖẖodėh anḏẖ gurū jin kerā.
They eat the uneatable; they reject and abandon what they could eat. They have a teacher who is blind.
ਮਾਸਹੁ ਨਿੰਮੇ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਜੰਮੇ ਹਮ ਮਾਸੈ ਕੇ ਭਾਂਡੇ ॥
मासहु निमे मासहु जमे हम मासै के भांडे ॥
Māsahu nimme māsahu jamme ham māsai ke bẖāʼnde.
In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.
ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਕਛੁ ਸੂਝੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਚਤੁਰੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਪਾਂਡੇ ॥
गिआनु धिआनु कछु सूझै नाही चतुरु कहावै पांडे ॥
Gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān kacẖẖ sūjẖai nāhī cẖaṯur kahāvai pāʼnde.
You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.
ਮਾਸੁ ਪੁਰਾਣੀ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਤੇਬੀ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗਿ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਮਾਣਾ ॥
मासु पुराणी मासु कतेबीं चहु जुगि मासु कमाणा ॥
Mās purāṇī mās ketābīʼn cẖahu jug mās kamāṇā.
Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in the Bible and the Koran. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used.
ਜਜਿ ਕਾਜਿ ਵੀਆਹਿ ਸੁਹਾਵੈ ਓਥੈ ਮਾਸੁ ਸਮਾਣਾ ॥
जजि काजि वीआहि सुहावै ओथै मासु समाणा ॥
Jaj kāj vī▫āhi suhāvai othai mās samāṇā.
It is featured in sacred feasts and marriage festivities; meat is used in them.
ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਪੁਰਖ ਨਿਪਜਹਿ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾਂ ॥
इसत्री पुरख निपजहि मासहु पातिसाह सुलतानां ॥
Isṯarī purakẖ nipjahi māsahu pāṯisāh sulṯānāʼn.
Women, men, kings and emperors originate from meat.
ਜੇ ਓਇ ਦਿਸਹਿ ਨਰਕਿ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਤਾਂ ਉਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕਾ ਦਾਨੁ ਨ ਲੈਣਾ ॥
जे ओइ दिसहि नरकि जांदे तां उन्ह का दानु न लैणा ॥
Je o▫e ḏisėh narak jāʼnḏe ṯāʼn unĥ kā ḏān na laiṇā.
If you see them going to hell, then do not accept charitable gifts from them.
ਦੇਂਦਾ ਨਰਕਿ ਸੁਰਗਿ ਲੈਦੇ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਏਹੁ ਧਿਙਾਣਾ ॥
देंदा नरकि सुरगि लैदे देखहु एहु धिङाणा ॥
Ḏeʼnḏā narak surag laiḏe ḏekẖhu ehu ḏẖińāṇā.
The giver goes to hell, while the receiver goes to heaven - look at this injustice.
ਆਪਿ ਨ ਬੂਝੈ ਲੋਕ ਬੁਝਾਏ ਪਾਂਡੇ ਖਰਾ ਸਿਆਣਾ ॥
आपि न बूझै लोक बुझाए पांडे खरा सिआणा ॥
Āp na būjẖai lok bujẖā▫e pāʼnde kẖarā si▫āṇā.
You do not understand your own self, but you preach to other people. O Pandit, you are very wise indeed.
ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੂ ਜਾਣੈ ਹੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਥਹੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਉਪੰਨਾ ॥
पांडे तू जाणै ही नाही किथहु मासु उपंना ॥
Pāʼnde ṯū jāṇai hī nāhī kithhu mās upannā.
O Pandit, you do not know where meat originated.
ਤੋਇਅਹੁ ਅੰਨੁ ਕਮਾਦੁ ਕਪਾਹਾਂ ਤੋਇਅਹੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਗੰਨਾ ॥
तोइअहु अंनु कमादु कपाहां तोइअहु त्रिभवणु गंना ॥
Ŧo▫i▫ahu ann kamāḏ kapāhāʼn ṯo▫i▫ahu ṯaribẖavaṇ gannā.
Corn, sugar cane and cotton are produced from water. The three worlds came from water.
ਤੋਆ ਆਖੈ ਹਉ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਹਛਾ ਤੋਐ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਬਿਕਾਰਾ ॥
तोआ आखै हउ बहु बिधि हछा तोऐ बहुतु बिकारा ॥
Ŧo▫ā ākẖai ha▫o baho biḏẖ hacẖẖā ṯoai bahuṯ bikārā.
Water says, "I am good in many ways." But water takes many forms.
ਏਤੇ ਰਸ ਛੋਡਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੰਨਿਆਸੀ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਹੈ ਵਿਚਾਰਾ ॥੨॥
एते रस छोडि होवै संनिआसी नानकु कहै विचारा ॥२॥
Ėṯe ras cẖẖod hovai sani▫āsī Nānak kahai vicẖārā. ||2||
Forsaking these delicacies, one becomes a true Sannyaasee, a detached hermit. Nanak reflects and speaks. ||2||

 

[Luckysingh]

. In the famous “Fools argue over meat and flesh” shabadh, Guru ji was highlighting that very same hypocrisy, which arises from a lack of understanding about the world around us. (Note: ghian dhian means wisdom and attention respectively, i.e. obtaining wisdom and internalizing that wisdom). I believe this shabadh cuts to the very heart of the topic:

I think that Ghian Dhian is much more than that...

Ghian= is the divine knowledge/wisdom/truth that comes WITH Dhian=which is focus, meditating on the name.(jinnee naam dhyiaaa..)

The shabad you quoted is calling the one who hasn't meditated and therefore not obtained the internal divine wisdom as the ''fool''....
The whole shabad is misused for justifying meat or not.
The deeper essence of the shabad is not even about the meat is it ??
(don't want to go off topic here)

giaan dhhiaan kishh karam n jaanaa saar n jaanaa thaeree |
sabh thae vaddaa sathigur naanak jin kal raakhee maere"
I know nothing about wisdom, meditation and good deeds; I know nothing about Your excellence.
Guru Nanak is the greatest of all; He saved my honor in this age governed by Kal(kalyug)