Admin note: Please debate issues not personalities. Any further personal attacks will be deleted immediately.
To Cover Our Heads Or Not?
- Dec 21, 2010
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Some comments if these add to dialog.
Sat Sri Akal.
Tomorrow same arguments espoused by seeker3k ji and like will say,
- Where does Gurbani say that one should take Aspirin" for Headache as I prefer to drink instead.
- Gurbani is for developing understanding, seeking wisdom and be in consonance with one creator
- Hopefully this allows for proper development of brain to put to worldly use in balanced ways than create crazy logic "Show me where it is in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji!"
- Gurbani is for developing understanding, seeking wisdom and be in consonance with one creator
Sat Sri Akal.
I asked to show any slok in SGGS that say we must cover head or remove shoes.
After 10th guru died their was kayos. Soon after there were many hukam nawas written. May of them were rejected but some still are being accepted.
Believe what u may but build your believe on the truth. Don’t get mixed up in that I am impling to SGGS. Keep to the topic.
Do you have any proof that any guru wrote any slok that we must cover head or remove shoes?
After 10th guru died their was kayos. Soon after there were many hukam nawas written. May of them were rejected but some still are being accepted.
Believe what u may but build your believe on the truth. Don’t get mixed up in that I am impling to SGGS. Keep to the topic.
Do you have any proof that any guru wrote any slok that we must cover head or remove shoes?
This is nothing more then brahminic retual nothing more. The turban maybe guru's, but does it have to do with the question.
Content deleted. What is the connection between wearing a turban and worship of idols? None explained so far. The first point is fair enough. spnadmin
Content deleted. What is the connection between wearing a turban and worship of idols? None explained so far. The first point is fair enough. spnadmin
I have removed some comments that were taking the discussion in circles, and were more like a quarrel than a debate.
imho it is relevant to bring up rehitnamas from the time following Guru Gobind Singh, which are now basically defunct, but whose tenets in some cases persisted down to the present and may even be part of the Sikh Rehat Maryada. The debate needs to focus on the question of head covering in the context of rehits, culture, history, and whether these are reflected in SGGS or not. Otherwise, all that is left is a quarrel.
imho it is relevant to bring up rehitnamas from the time following Guru Gobind Singh, which are now basically defunct, but whose tenets in some cases persisted down to the present and may even be part of the Sikh Rehat Maryada. The debate needs to focus on the question of head covering in the context of rehits, culture, history, and whether these are reflected in SGGS or not. Otherwise, all that is left is a quarrel.
Dear Agnostic Seeker3k,
First of all, you are poking questions only to confuse people and maybe stop from stuff they have been practicing. If you wish to not have a turban and proclaim yourself a Sikh, go ahead. Let me tell you, things in Guru's Sikhi are deep and meaningful such that anyone trying to look from outside or surface, cannot even get iota of it. There are hundreds of thousands of Guru's Sikhs who wear turbans (including bibiyaan who are rediscovering it) and they never question it. For they know the reasons. THEY PRACTICE AND THEY KNOW THE REASON. So making you understand would be like telling you 64 attacks with Sri Sahib while you may even not have held a Kirpan in your hand. And yes, those 64 attacks are not described in Guru Granth Sahib. Yet they are preserved and are as much part of our Sikh education as 5 Kakkaar.
When you brought up the stuff about removing shoes, I searched and found this. I would have done your Nindaa and sinned, but this makes me giggle
ਨਾਨਕ ਫਿਕੈ ਬੋਲਿਐ ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਫਿਕਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
O Nanak, speaking insipid words, the body and mind become insipid.
ਫਿਕੋ ਫਿਕਾ ਸਦੀਐ ਫਿਕੇ ਫਿਕੀ ਸੋਇ ॥
He is called the most insipid of the insipid; the most insipid of the insipid is his reputation.
ਫਿਕਾ ਦਰਗਹ ਸਟੀਐ ਮੁਹਿ ਥੁਕਾ ਫਿਕੇ ਪਾਇ ॥
The insipid person is discarded in the Court of the Lord, and the insipid one's face is spat upon.
ਫਿਕਾ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਆਖੀਐ ਪਾਣਾ ਲਹੈ ਸਜਾਇ ॥੧॥
The insipid one is called a fool; he is beaten with shoes in punishment.
Anyway, our Ten Masters had shown the highest respect for Guru Granth Sahib. They took shoes off in Guru Granth Sahib's presence and they wore a Turban as symbol of Guru Granth Sahib's greatness beyond words and Waheguru's Creation. And of course, it is not written in Guru Granth Sahib, how to respect Guru Granth Sahib. That is something started and followed and maintained by Ten Gurus and Their Sikhs. And if someone talks about bringing down that standard of respect, he is in big trouble
Should you still choose to reply, you are welcome
First of all, you are poking questions only to confuse people and maybe stop from stuff they have been practicing. If you wish to not have a turban and proclaim yourself a Sikh, go ahead. Let me tell you, things in Guru's Sikhi are deep and meaningful such that anyone trying to look from outside or surface, cannot even get iota of it. There are hundreds of thousands of Guru's Sikhs who wear turbans (including bibiyaan who are rediscovering it) and they never question it. For they know the reasons. THEY PRACTICE AND THEY KNOW THE REASON. So making you understand would be like telling you 64 attacks with Sri Sahib while you may even not have held a Kirpan in your hand. And yes, those 64 attacks are not described in Guru Granth Sahib. Yet they are preserved and are as much part of our Sikh education as 5 Kakkaar.
When you brought up the stuff about removing shoes, I searched and found this. I would have done your Nindaa and sinned, but this makes me giggle
ਨਾਨਕ ਫਿਕੈ ਬੋਲਿਐ ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਫਿਕਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
O Nanak, speaking insipid words, the body and mind become insipid.
ਫਿਕੋ ਫਿਕਾ ਸਦੀਐ ਫਿਕੇ ਫਿਕੀ ਸੋਇ ॥
He is called the most insipid of the insipid; the most insipid of the insipid is his reputation.
ਫਿਕਾ ਦਰਗਹ ਸਟੀਐ ਮੁਹਿ ਥੁਕਾ ਫਿਕੇ ਪਾਇ ॥
The insipid person is discarded in the Court of the Lord, and the insipid one's face is spat upon.
ਫਿਕਾ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਆਖੀਐ ਪਾਣਾ ਲਹੈ ਸਜਾਇ ॥੧॥
The insipid one is called a fool; he is beaten with shoes in punishment.
Anyway, our Ten Masters had shown the highest respect for Guru Granth Sahib. They took shoes off in Guru Granth Sahib's presence and they wore a Turban as symbol of Guru Granth Sahib's greatness beyond words and Waheguru's Creation. And of course, it is not written in Guru Granth Sahib, how to respect Guru Granth Sahib. That is something started and followed and maintained by Ten Gurus and Their Sikhs. And if someone talks about bringing down that standard of respect, he is in big trouble
Should you still choose to reply, you are welcome
Kanwaljit Singh ji
The shabad you posted is a saloka on Ang 473. The translation is by Sant Singh Khalsa, MD.
I would appreciate it if you would offer to this discussion a paragraph or two in which you explain what you believe Guru Nanak means. Otherwise it seems, standing alone by itself, that Guru Nanak is in the habit of calling people names. What issue is Guru Nanak seeking to stress? What is he trying to say? What lesson should we learn from the salok, and the surrounding portions of the shabad? Thank you.
The shabad you posted is a saloka on Ang 473. The translation is by Sant Singh Khalsa, MD.
I would appreciate it if you would offer to this discussion a paragraph or two in which you explain what you believe Guru Nanak means. Otherwise it seems, standing alone by itself, that Guru Nanak is in the habit of calling people names. What issue is Guru Nanak seeking to stress? What is he trying to say? What lesson should we learn from the salok, and the surrounding portions of the shabad? Thank you.
BTW, forum members. What do you think?
Look at an alternative translation by Bhai Manmoha Singh.
Notice how Bhai Manmohan Singh has never used the word "insipid." Also he does not repeat one attribute, "insipid," throughout the saloka, the way Sant Singh Khalsa has done. Instead he uses adverbs/adjectives such as: dryly, dry, evil, sour-tongued, harsh.
Why so different? Perhaps the shabad needs closer study. Does the word "insipid" capture the meaning completely?
ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੧ ॥
सलोकु मः १ ॥
Salok mėhlā 1.
Slok 1st Guru.
ਨਾਨਕ ਫਿਕੈ ਬੋਲਿਐ ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਫਿਕਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
नानक फिकै बोलिऐ तनु मनु फिका होइ ॥
Nānak fikai boli▫ai ṯan man fikā ho▫e.
Nanak, by speaking dryly, the soul and body become dry (evil).
ਫਿਕੋ ਫਿਕਾ ਸਦੀਐ ਫਿਕੇ ਫਿਕੀ ਸੋਇ ॥
फिको फिका सदीऐ फिके फिकी सोइ ॥
Fiko fikā saḏī▫ai fike fikī so▫e.
He is called the most evil of the evil and the most evil is his reputation.
ਫਿਕਾ ਦਰਗਹ ਸਟੀਐ ਮੁਹਿ ਥੁਕਾ ਫਿਕੇ ਪਾਇ ॥
फिका दरगह सटीऐ मुहि थुका फिके पाइ ॥
Fikā ḏargėh satī▫ai muhi thukā fike pā▫e.
The sour-tongued persons is discarded in God's court and the evil one's face is spat upon.
ਫਿਕਾ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਆਖੀਐ ਪਾਣਾ ਲਹੈ ਸਜਾਇ ॥੧॥
फिका मूरखु आखीऐ पाणा लहै सजाइ ॥१॥
Fikā mūrakẖ ākẖī▫ai pāṇā lahai sajā▫e. ||1||
The harsh man is called a fool and he receives shoe-beating as punishment.
Look at an alternative translation by Bhai Manmoha Singh.
Notice how Bhai Manmohan Singh has never used the word "insipid." Also he does not repeat one attribute, "insipid," throughout the saloka, the way Sant Singh Khalsa has done. Instead he uses adverbs/adjectives such as: dryly, dry, evil, sour-tongued, harsh.
Why so different? Perhaps the shabad needs closer study. Does the word "insipid" capture the meaning completely?
ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੧ ॥
सलोकु मः १ ॥
Salok mėhlā 1.
Slok 1st Guru.
ਨਾਨਕ ਫਿਕੈ ਬੋਲਿਐ ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਫਿਕਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
नानक फिकै बोलिऐ तनु मनु फिका होइ ॥
Nānak fikai boli▫ai ṯan man fikā ho▫e.
Nanak, by speaking dryly, the soul and body become dry (evil).
ਫਿਕੋ ਫਿਕਾ ਸਦੀਐ ਫਿਕੇ ਫਿਕੀ ਸੋਇ ॥
फिको फिका सदीऐ फिके फिकी सोइ ॥
Fiko fikā saḏī▫ai fike fikī so▫e.
He is called the most evil of the evil and the most evil is his reputation.
ਫਿਕਾ ਦਰਗਹ ਸਟੀਐ ਮੁਹਿ ਥੁਕਾ ਫਿਕੇ ਪਾਇ ॥
फिका दरगह सटीऐ मुहि थुका फिके पाइ ॥
Fikā ḏargėh satī▫ai muhi thukā fike pā▫e.
The sour-tongued persons is discarded in God's court and the evil one's face is spat upon.
ਫਿਕਾ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਆਖੀਐ ਪਾਣਾ ਲਹੈ ਸਜਾਇ ॥੧॥
फिका मूरखु आखीऐ पाणा लहै सजाइ ॥१॥
Fikā mūrakẖ ākẖī▫ai pāṇā lahai sajā▫e. ||1||
The harsh man is called a fool and he receives shoe-beating as punishment.
I think ਫਿਕਾ means something which is missing the Mithaas of Waheguru and His Name.
when we eneter our own house we dont bring shoes in why? Well i dont so i dont dirty my carpet or the floor; the shoes are dirty. A house is a place where you grow up and learn; its where life happens. Same as gurudawara its where rests the teachings of the great gurus the life lesson that we must fallow. It is also considerd our home where the 11th Guru is. Its a matter of respect and commen sense in a way weather it says that in the shri guru grant saib or not.
In Canada, there is almost a custom to take off shoes before entering a house. And a Kitchen is truly off limits. But when some Sikhs enter the Kitchen of Guru (ie Langar hall), they would like to come in with shoes. Why this discrimination against your own Guru? This is virtually like signing a Bedava.
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