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Controversial The Wiles of Woman: Research and Statistics to Represent an Alternative Viewpoint

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by findingmyway, Oct 28, 2012.

  1. findingmyway

    findingmyway
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    There has been a lot of comment on SPN recently about the wiles of women and how careful men have to be. One third of the DG is dedicated to this topic and it has been used as a reason to malign women and treat them as inferior citizens. 'Educating' only one group about the bad points of the oppposite gender is gender discrimination at its highest and flies against the obejctives of Guru Nanak Dev ji and the other Gurus when they supported women and counteracted such arguments. Once again, there is a need for balance in the issue. I wish to use hard facts and research to show this attitude has no realistic basis. The wiles of women is a way for a patriarchal society to justify the suppression of women. The original papers are attached as PDFs for interested persons.

    Here are some quotes from the research paper which are critical to its conclusions and pointing the way to the truth about differences in men and women.

    "Criminologists agree that the gender gap in crime is universal: Women are always and everywhere less likely than men to commit criminal acts."

    "females participate in substantially less violent crime than males during the course of their criminal careers"

    "females are far less likely than males to repeat their violent offenses"

    "females are far more likely to desist from further violence"

    "Patriarchal power relations shape gender differences in crime, pushing women into crime through victimization, role entrapment, economic marginality, and survival needs."

    "Nowhere is the gender ratio more skewed than in the great disparity of males as offenders and females as victims of sexual and domestic abuse."

    "The role of inequality may be seen in career paths of female teens who drift into criminality as a consequence of running away from sexual and physical abuse at home."

    "Even prostitution—often considered a female crime—is essentially a male dominated or -controlled criminal enterprise. Police, pimps, businessmen who employ prostitutes, and clients—virtually all of whom are male—control, in various ways, the conditions under which the prostitute works."

    "Gender differences in moral development and an apparent greater inherent readiness of women to learn parenting and nurturing predispose women toward an “ethic of care” that restrains women from violence and other criminal behavior injurious to others. In contrast, men who are conditioned toward status-seeking, yet marginalized from the world of work, may develop an amoral world view in which the “takers” gain superior status at the expense of the “givers.”"

    "women take greater risks to sustain valued relationships, whereas males take greater risks for reasons of status or competitive advantage."

    "However, Dobash et al (1992) point out that the context of spousal violence is dramatically different for men and women. Compared to men, women are far more likely to kill only after a prolonged period of abuse, when they are in fear for their lives and have exhausted all alternatives. A number of patterns of wife-killing by husbands are rarely if ever found when wives kill husbands: murder-suicides, family massacres, stalking, and murder in response to spouse infidelity."

    "female involvement in white collar crime was on the increase, in fact it is almost nonexistent in more serious occupational and/or business crimes, like insider trading, price-fixing, restraint of trade, toxic waste dumping, fraudulent product commerce, bribery, and official corruption, as well as large-scale governmental crimes (for example, the Iran-Contra affair and the Greylord scandal). Even when similar on-the-job opportunities for theft exist, women are still less likely to commit crime"

    "However, females frequently become involved in such crimes as accomplices to males, particularly in roles that at once exploit women’s sexuality and reinforce their
    traditional subordination to men"

    "For women to kill, they generally must see their situation as life-threatening, as affecting the physical or emotional well-being of themselves or their children."

    "the only offense categories where female arrest rates exceed those of males. The high percentage of female arrests in these two categories reflects both gender differences in marketability of sexual services and the continuing patriarchal sexual double standard. Although customers must obviously outnumber prostitutes, they are less likely to be sanctioned. Similarly, although self-report studies showmale rates of runaways to be as high as female rates, suspicion of sexual involvement makes female runaways more likely to be arrested"


    Here are some statistics for the US (Bureau of Justice) from 2009: Once again, I am not paraphrasing so there is no bias from me. I am only quoting directly from the document.

    Nonfatal intimate partner violence
    • Intimate partner violence includes victimization committed by spouses or exspouses,
    boyfriends or girlfriends, and ex-boyfriends or ex-girlfriends.
    • In 2008 females age 12 or older experienced about 552,000 nonfatal violent victimizations
    (rape/sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated or simple assault) by an intimate
    partner (a current or former spouse, boyfriend or girlfriend) (table 1).
    • In the same year, men experienced 101,000 nonfatal violent victimizations by an intimate
    partner.
    • The rate of intimate partner victimizations for females was 4.3 victimizations per
    1,000 females age 12 or older. The equivalent rate of intimate partner violence
    against males was 0.8 victimizations per 1,000 males age 12 or older.

    Fatal intimate partner violence
    • Fatal intimate partner violence includes homicide or murder and non-negligent manslaughter,
    defined as the willful killing of one human being by another.
    • In 2007 intimate partners committed 14% of all homicides in the U.S. The total estimated
    number of intimate partner homicide victims in 2007 was 2,340, including 1,640
    females and 700 males.
    Females made up 70% of victims killed by an intimate partner in 2007, a proportion
    that has changed very little since 1993.
    • Females were killed by intimate partners at twice the rate of males. In 2007 the rate of
    intimate partner homicide for females was 1.07 per 100,000 female residents compared
    to 0.47 per 100,000 male residents.

    Characteristics of rape/sexual assault

    • Rape includes forced sexual intercourse, both psychological coercion and physical
    force, and attempted rapes. Sexual assault includes a wide range of victimizations distinct
    from rape or attempted rape.
    • Based on the NCVS which interviews victims, females age 12 or older experienced an
    estimated 182,000 rapes or sexual assaults in 2008, and males experienced 40,000
    rapes or sexual assaults.
    • The rates of rape or sexual assaults against females and males in 2008 were 1.4 and
    0.3 per 1,000 persons age 12 or older, respectively.

    Characteristics of stalking
    • Data on stalking are from the NCVS Supplementary Victimization Survey (SVS),
    administered during January through June 2006. The SVS defined stalking as a course
    of conduct directed at a specific person that would cause a reasonable person to feel
    fear.
    • During a 12-month period in 2005 and 2006, an estimated 3.4 million persons age 18
    or older were victims of stalking.
    • During the 12-month period an estimated 14 in every 1,000 persons age 18 or older
    were victims of stalking.
    • Females were at higher risk of stalking victimization than males. During the study
    period, females experienced 20 stalking victimizations per 1,000 females age 18 or
    older. The rate of stalking victimization for males was approximately 7 per 1,000 males
    age 18 or older.

    In the interests of balance I did look for a document specifically about male victims in crime but could not find anything. However, I did find a number of websites dedicated to male victims of domestic violence. Interestingly, a lot of these websites report the abuse occurring by other MEN in homosexual relationships. This is not to say that women do not commit abuse or crime. However, both the research and crime statistics show the wiles of men are much greater than the wiles of women.
     

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    #1 findingmyway, Oct 28, 2012
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  3. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    There is a saying, we hate in others what we hate in ourselves. From this viewpoint, every man who chastises a woman for wearing that short skirt, or those high heels, is actually addressing his own issues with how those skirts and heels make him feel.

    Those men that insist all females around them dress modestly. behave properly, and then go and pay for dirty sex with russian prostitutes are hypocrites of the highest order. Together with the ones that wish they could, these men number hugely in every culture around the world. Who gets the blame? well the women of course, they are devils who can turn your eye with a flash of flesh. Of course that is the fault of women, not the fact that men are led so easily.

    The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji contains no such warnings against women, nor does it promise a heaven made up of non menstruating, non urinating, high breasted big eyed damsels. It does this because it assumes that Khalsa Sikhs are beyond such thinking.

    Some of the writings in the DG come across as being written by extremely bitter angry men. How is encouraging men to be wary of women equal? As Sikhs we should be giving every living person the benefit of the doubt, and judging them on actions rather than prejudging an entire sex because some warped court poet wrote a few lines that managed to get a large audience.
     
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  4. Annie

    Annie
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    Thank you, FindingMyWay ji. We need to fight against all forms of victimization and unfairness, whether it is against women or men. I never want to fall into the mindset of, my group suffers more than yours, so I will ignore your suffering.
     
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  5. findingmyway

    findingmyway
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    Annie ji,
    I am glad for your post as that was never my intention and I agree with you 110%. I am merely trying to provide some balance against the sentiments expressed by some members on this website as well as in the Indian media to show women are not all wily minxes. Thank you for making things clear so this thread is not taken the wrong way.

    Harry veerji.
    I wish I could give you multiple thank yous!! People like yourself, Soul jyot ji, Gyani ji, Tejwant Singh ji and many others are a credit to your gender and to humanity. I thank you for your support in promoting equality. Not all men are bad, not all women are bad. I wish we could all just work together more and look past gender. Just think how much could be achieved in this world if we all respected each other as equals and behaved accordingly (sigh*)
     
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  6. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    Dominating attitudes of males and inequalities is gender discrimination. period.
    This discrimination can be worse than racial, age or culural.

    What I find sad is that there are so many men that just behave as if they are being perfectly normal and fair, yet they can be discriminating without even realising. It's because they have become so accustomed and aclimatsed to doing it over time.

    There should be more awareness so that these men can actually realise the extents to which they can be discriminating against women.

    Personally, I have found that even some of my past friends would be kind of discriminating without even realising or even trying to be. When I would inform them, then they would sometimes think it through and pay more notice next time.
    I usually found that most of these lads or men were ones that had very little contact with feminine genders. ie.. they were normally ones who had no sisters and their mothers had little infuence on the household matters.
    This is just my general experience and perception, it doesn't mean that all these lads without feminine contact at home become naturally sexist, but just what I have gathered over the years.
     
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  7. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    Jasleen ji,
    I'll be short and to the point.
    Where's the evidence?

    Again, where is the evidence?

    You provided no evidence for the above. And I have to ask you, why are you attempting to malign revered texts without evidence?

    Your post is hardly balanced as you completely ignored the other half of the victims, who are more likely to be victims of aggravated assault and robbery and who happen to be male.
    http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv10.pdf

    Vitimization in crimes for men and women is statistically similar. Crimes include sexual assault, robbery, aggravated assault (causes serious bodily injury) and simple assault.

    Males tend to be victimized in aggravated assaults and robbery whereas women are victimized in sexual assaults.

    But overall the difference between the genders for victimization in the figures from 2010 are statistically insignificant.
    male victims: 1,956,320
    female victims: 1,854,980

    Is the patriarchal society also suppressing men?
    Is it favouring one sex over over the other?

    The truth is that the character of both men and women are criticized in Dasam Granth. Your selective reading is no evidence for what you claim.

    The truth is patriarchical societies do not suppress men or women exclusively, nor do they favour one sex over the other.

    Yes there is sexism but it is directed at both women AND men in different ways. In a different thread, I described to you how women are turned in to sex objects by people, just a glimpse at the cover of most magazines should confirm this. But men ALSO undergo objectification by people, they are turned in success objects, valued when they earn more, are more utility, etc. They are considered disposable when they are not of utility.

    Both types of objectification are harmful for sexes, for their own sex and also for the complementary sex.

    I am with Annie ji on this. I want to add that we ought to look at issues of both genders when trying to move towards equality. This was the way of the Gurus, they did not look at only women's issues, they also looked at men's issues as well as personal and societal issues.

    No one can say it better than Dr. Warren Farrell.
    Dr. Warren Farrell on BBC: Five Myths About Men & Male Power
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pPGijYBaVE
     
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  8. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Fellow Sikh Brothers and Sisters if we learn nothing else from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji then perhaps we can latch on to the following,

    Statistics are a science in themselves and can be so skewed that it is not funny. Let me cite from one of the reference in the thread starter's post that I was looking through,
    This tells me that on a positive note we need to learn why the incidents of offense fall of so sharply below 17 years and above 55 years. Are 17 years and under not able to commit the offense and 55 years and over in the same category? Are 17 and younger committing crimes in their minds and so do the 55+ or they suddenly stop thinking?

    Is only the hard manifestation of crime or discrimination important or it is as evil in our mind too when carried out nefariously, in subtle ways and so on?

    Just some thoughts and I believe crime is crime and discrimination is discrimination regardless of sex, animal species, etc. We discriminate when we pick animals to pet, people to talk to, meat to buy, etc.

    Let us not put ourselves at pedestals so high that as to God/creator does not recognize us for the fools we so become!

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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    #7 Ambarsaria, Oct 29, 2012
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  9. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    why did guru nanak ji feel the need to write so MUCH bani on WOMEN...declaring..So kion manda khyeah jit jammeh Rajaan...sants, kings, emperors, gurus bhagats brahmgyanis..all born of woman..suckle the woman, enjoy the company of woman, marry the woman, procreate themsleves via woman...and still treat her lowest of the low, dirt, juttee, no brains, no decionmaking powers, just as a sex object..slave...seeing this UNBALANCED state of affairs in Society Guru sahib had to pick up cudgels in FAVOUR of WOMAN..lifting her HIGH....and NOT a SINGLE TUK in SGGS has anything to say about viles, evils conniving women etc...WHY ?? Becasue these habits are in MEN as well as women and not gender based..
     
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  10. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Tales of SIKH MORALITY abound even among Muslim historians..Hari Singh Nalwa was once the object of a Afghan Princess's "love/lust"...she called him for a oen to one session and told him..I would like a SON just like YOU..hari Singh at once knelt before her and said..Mother..I am your son...Similar tales about Guru Gobind Singh ji also exist..NOW is such High Moral Ground due to SGGS Gurbani OR..from reading about How women do ...in the bedroom in explcit language that counts as "NOT SUITABLE for GENERAL AUDIENCES":...

    FACT:.... Charitro pakhayan occupies MORE than 2/3 of DG. What type of evidence is needed..??
     
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  11. Annie

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    Thank you for this link, BhagatSingh ji. What I get from this is that both men and women are hurting. They are hurting for different reasons. They express it and deal with it differently, but they are all hurting. We could all try to do a better job of working more constructively together on this problem.
     
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  12. findingmyway

    findingmyway
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    Gyani ji has already answered this point.

    I am not trying to malign anything and everything I always use evidence. Your 'revered' text is teaching a whole generation of young men how evil women are and I am merely trying to provide balance to show women are no worse than men. I will always fight injustice and that is why I felt this thread necessary.

    I purposefully focussed on perpetrators of crime rather than victims. Victims are half and half-agreed. Young men are more likely to be attacked than young women-agreed. But who attacks both groups-more likely to be young men and that is my point. Women are no more devious and cunning than men so why the need for separate stories? Why not just each individual be guided by morality regardless of gender? This is what Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji teaches.

    Agreed but telling a woman she is not capable of anything other than sitting at home and being protected is NOT equality! What does equality mean to you? How do you define it?

    For me, equality means not being judged on my abilities due to my gender. Equality means being treated as an individual on my own merit with my own strengths and weaknesses regardless of my birth gender. Equality means not being stereotyped or dictated to.
     
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  13. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    No he hasn't. Please provide the evidence.
    No you don't since you haven't provided any.

    I think it's good to educate men and women of their misbehaviour and the misbehaviour of the complementary sex. As I said Dasam Granth does both, I provided the evidence on the other thread, whereas you have not provided anything to counter.

    No. You are not doing this at all. You are saying men are worse then women. What would balance this is showing how women are just as evil but in their own way. This balance is there in Dasam Granth but not in your post.

    I am against focusing on evil, i think we should focus on the good but when speaking of balance...


    Yes men tend to perpetrate more violence agreed. So they are more likely to attack other men and women.

    But there can also be violence on the behalf of another. Men are often the ones to act on someone else's behalf, we see this clearly in military, where men fight and die for the safety of the citizens even thought they hate the idea. In fact, I heard an old WW vetaran say he would do it again if he needed.

    Women's violence tends to be emotional or covert in someway.
    If a woman is going to beat-up he ex boyfriend, she is likely to get her new boyfriend or her brother, etc to do it. or if a brother who sees his hurt sister and beats up her ex, Or if it's direct, then many men who are in relationships can explain how women hurt them without physically hurting them, not that women don't do that but these guys will tell you about covert "violence" or emotional violence.

    They are. Men are more aggressive and physical, women are more devious and cunning. Men tend to seek power, women tend to manipulate those in power. This is a known pattern of behaviour among them. If you have studied evolution by natural selection and evolutionary psychology, this makes more sense. It can also be observed.

    Men and women also handle pain differently. Men are better at tolerating acute pain, and they are horrible are tolerating chronic pain (thus they commit suicide 4x as much as women!! don't like to get sick, etc). Women are better at tolerating chronic pain and horrible at tolerating acute pain (they don't like to put themselves in harm's way). Several studies have been done on this. But why do I state this? I state this because this is very related to the type of "violence" that they undergo.

    Again, men's violence tends to be overt, while women's tends to be covert.
    Guru Granth Sahib also targets many teachings towards men and women specifically. This is very visible in the Gurmukhi reading, not so much in the translation, as the translation is more gender neutral.

    Exactly no equality for women, and how is this any equality for men? They don't get any protection and are obligated to put themselves in the harm's way for women. How many Sikh men died on their missions to save women and children from Afghan invaders?

    So we have to look at both sexes and their rights and obligations to see how we can alleviate their suffering. That is equality!

    Equality for women is not equality.
    Equality for men is not equality.
    Equality for men and women IS equality.

    And it requires an active effort because we tend to do things for our survival even if it is guaranteed. When we focus on survival we entrap both men and women in certain roles that are oppressive to both. And this is why ancient societies, if they are said to be oppressive, are oppressive.

    Just in case the "violence on behalf of another" wasn't clear enough. This is another good example. Here again, men are being violent. Agreed? But they are acting out violence on the behalf of women and children. Sikhs are doing it to save their women and children, and Afghans are doing it to feed their women and children. But if this were a scientific paper, it would say men are violent women are not, even though this is just too simplistic a view.


    Exactly and this applies to all individuals regardless of their sex. But pointing out differences amongst the sexes should not be problematic either because differences are definitely there, and are present from birth. Also simple, black and white perspectives don't help us since the similarities overlap quite a bit.
     
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    #12 BhagatSingh, Nov 11, 2012
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  14. Serjinder Singh

    Serjinder Singh United Kingdom
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    Dasam Granth is a compilation of different constituents written by different writers. Some compositions, particularly Jaap Sahib, Sudha Swayyiey, and parts of Akal Ustat, and Zafarnama may have been written by Guru Gobind Singh ji but other parts are patently by different writers.

    One finds contradictory views in different compositions apparently authored by different writers. For instance in Krishanvtar the writer declares he/she would never meditate on Krishan or Vishnu(whose incarnation Krishan is) because he/she has only heard about them but face to face he/she wouldn't be able to recognise him. Thus

    "Krishanavatar<?"urn::eek:ffice:eek:ffice" />
    Page 733, Line 9
    ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ੪੩੪॥
    मै न गनेशहि प्रिथम मनाऊं ॥ किशन बिशन कबहूं नह धिआऊं ॥कान सुने पहिचान न तिन सों ॥ लिव लागी मोरी पग इन सों ॥४३४॥
    I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal (the Immanent Brahman).434"


    However, in Ramavtar the writer declares the merits of devotion to Vishnu. Thus,

    Ramavtar
    Page 643, Line 7
    ਰਾਮ ਕਥਾ ਜੁਗ ਜੁਗਿ ਅਟਲ ਸਭ ਕੋਈ ਭਾਖਤ ਨੇਤਿ ॥ ਸੁਰਗਿ ਬਾਸੁ ਰਘੁਬਰ ਕਰਾ ਸਗਰੀ ਪੁਰੀ ਸਮੇਤ ॥੮੫੮॥
    ਇਤਿ ਰਾਮ ਭਿਰਾਤ ਤ੍ਰੀਅਨ ਸਹਿਤ ਸੁਰਗਿ ਗਏ ਅਰੁ ਰਾਮ ਸਗਰੀ ਪੁਰੀ ਸਹਿਤ ਸੁਰਗ ਜਾਇਬੋ ਧਿਆਇ ਸਮਾਪਤੰ ॥
    इति राम भिरात त्रीअन सहित सुरगि गए अरु राम सगरी पुरी सहित सुरग जाइबो धिआइ समापतं
    End of the chapter entitled `Ram went to Heaven alongwith brothers and their wives; He went alongwith all the residents of the city` in Ramavtar in BACHITTAR NATAK.

    ਚੌਪਈ ॥
    चौपई ॥
    CHAUPAI

    <o:p> </o:p>
    ਜੋ ਇਹ ਕਥਾ ਸੁਨੈ ਅਰੁ ਗਾਵੈ ॥ ਦੂਖ ਪਾਪ ਤਿਹ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਭਗਤਿ ਕੀ ਏ ਫਲੁ ਹੋਈ ॥ ਆਧਿ ਬਯਾਧਿ ਛ੍ਵੈ ਸਕੈ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥੮੫੯॥
    जो इह कथा सुनै अरु गावै ॥ दूख पाप तिह निकटि न आवै ॥ बिसनु भगति की ए फलु होई ॥ आधि बयाधि छ्वै सकै न कोई ॥८५९॥
    He, who will listen to this story and sing it, he will be free from the sufferings and sins. The reward of the devotion to Vishnu (and his incarnation Ram) that no ailment of any kind will touch him.859.
     
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  15. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    That maybe true though it's hard to be certain. But what you say is not contradictory simply the author's thoughts.

    It is clear that Dasam granth centers on Shiv/Mahakal and Shakti/Shiva/Bhagauti. The author reveres and meditates on Immanent Brahman as Shiv. And he makes is clear before getting into Vaishnu literature.

    Notice how he does not say he meditates on Sri Ram. Just that Vaishnus who do will be rewarded.

    This is one of the interesting differences between Guru Gobind Singh ji and earlier Gurus, who (Guru Angad Dev ji) would say:
    ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਆਤਮਾ
    एक क्रिसनं सरब देवा देव देवा त आतमा ॥
    Ėk krisanʼn sarab ḏevā ḏev ḏevā ṯa āṯmā.
    The One Lord Krishna is the Divine Lord of all; He is the Divinity of the individual soul.

    -page 469
     
    #14 BhagatSingh, Nov 22, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  16. Brother Onam

    Brother Onam United States
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    Gurfateh!
    I know that both men and women are equally assailed by the five thieves, and, as such, are both capable of bad conduct. We need look no further than Indira Gandhi, Margaret Thatcher, or Condolleeza Rice to see what women at the reigns of power might do.
    Having said that, I for one, would gladly look to the day when women would be more in positions of rulership. In the midst of a bellicose, fraught, political environment they can exhibit ruthlessness, but I'm inclined to believe that in a realm that nurtures female nature and allows women to move on their feminine instincts, we may not be in the world we now find ourselves: polluted, deforested, perpetually at war with one another, stocked to our gullets with nuclear bombs and weaponry, surrounded by pornography and violence, and dealing globally with never-ending refugees and human-rights abuses.
    They'll have my vote!
     
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