The "Truth" Revealed. Its An Offense To Speak Punjabi At UNO

[Archived_Member_19]

apart from this woman being a Sikh, what does this episode have anything to do with so called "Sikh persecution" by govt of india?

Was she there representing Sikhs or State of punjab or as a specialist of the field?

I think she was there as a specialist of the field with respect to punjab, not sikhs

Did she present data regarding sikh and non sikhs?

i think she presented data on punjab and disputed the government data. She might be correct, but what does it have to do with Sikhs and where is the "sikh persecution"

it's funny how people twist an incident to make it look like a conspiracy against sikhs

btw

punjab has only 63% population as Sikhs and there are more punjabi speakers in pakistan than india

worldwide there are more non sikh speakers of punjabi than sikhs

Sikhs do not have a "divine" right over punjabi, the language existed long before Sikhs

it's time we remove our tinted glasses and look at the incident objectively.

 

[harbansj24]

As I see there are 2 issues and lets not get mixed up on both:

1. The male female ratio in Punjab
2. Dealing with issues that lead to female foeticide in Punjab.

1. It will be foolhardy to dispute the census data of the Government of India without any alternate authentic and credible data. As everybody residing in India knows that the census exercise is meticulous and a professionally carried out door to door exercise. The ground level workers doing this exercise are local school teachers who have little stake in falsifying the records in an organized mass scale.
Questioning this data will create an atmosphere of incredulity which will put a question mark over your subsequent genuine arguments.

2. There certainly is merit in the argument that Punjab Government is doing little deal with issues that lead to female foeticide or infanticide.
Much more is being done by the Ragis and Kathakars in Punjab notably by people like Bhai Gur Iqbal Singh ji and Giani Pinderpal Singh ji.

Many a times Sikhs are known to have a rush of blood and are known to kill their own otherwise genuine cases in International forums by making wild and unsubstantiated statements and claims.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

apart from this woman being a Sikh, what does this episode have anything to do with so called "Sikh persecution" by govt of india?

Was she there representing Sikhs or State of punjab or as a specialist of the field?

I think she was there as a specialist of the field with respect to punjab, not sikhs

Did she present data regarding sikh and non sikhs?

i think she presented data on punjab and disputed the government data. She might be correct, but what does it have to do with Sikhs and where is the "sikh persecution"

it's funny how people twist an incident to make it look like a conspiracy against sikhs

btw

punjab has only 63% population as Sikhs and there are more punjabi speakers in pakistan than india

worldwide there are more non sikh speakers of punjabi than sikhs

Sikhs do not have a "divine" right over punjabi, the language existed long before Sikhs

it's time we remove our tinted glasses and look at the incident objectively.

Bhai huck Ji, gurfateh.

Sometimes we have to "remove" our own tinted glasses to see whether the other fellow is indeed wearing tinted glasses or its our own TINT reflecting in his transparent glasses.

Hindu "Punjabis" have never defended far from propogating anything Punjabi on their own...this may be because i personally havent come across any such "punjabi hindu"..except the many many sitting in Bollywood and producing movies perpetually making fun of Sikhs and Punjab. Same applies to the Lala Owned Newspapers in Punjab...99% of the time they are spewing anti sikh/anti punjabi venom..since the pre partition days..maybe someone could dig into theri archives and put up an article praising punjabi/punjab/sikhs which i may have missed (due to my heavily tinted glasses - I had an Laser eye op 5 years ago and now dont wear any glasses..but i still cant find any such articles..!! BUT PLENTY that are RABIDLY anti sikh/anti punjab/anti punjabi.). I will Gladly begin wearing transparent/tint free glasses just to please any such non tinted Punjabi hindu.:whisling:

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Bhai huck Finni Jio,
IS this also a case of a person wearing tinted glasses..? To some it will Sure look that way... maybe they will even say that the TINT seems a BLACKOUT like they used to do during WWII times ?? he he Tarlochan Singh former Chairman of Minorites Comission of the Govt of India seesm to be wearing heavily tinted glasses..is the tint real..imagined..or simply ebcause he is no more a GOI Official ?? In my sight..he says the right things..and I support him 110%.
YouTube - Tarlochan Singh on Indian Government's discrimination towards sikhs

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

another one..
YouTube - Tarlochan Singh

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

A Sikh Woman in Indian Parliament elected from Bihar speaks the UNTINTED TRUTH..
ALL the Speakser cna say is Ho Giyah..Ho Giyah..Bass Karo Ok Ok..TRUTH HURTS.
YouTube - Indian Parliament eye opning statement by Sikh women

 

[Archived_Member_19]

Black List: - Govt of India hold all right not to allow any person who is involved in subversive activities against the country.

Wrong logic: "Sikhs" won over the American policy for nuclear agreement - i doubt

Ambassadors not visiting functions: - Functions generally have Khalistani overtones, it would be faux pas for the officials

Press Releases-Consulate General of India, New York, U.S.A. - indiacgny.org - www.indiacgny.org

No Gurudwara in middle east: There is no Hindu temple either. That is the local law and that is it.

Illegal immigrants in Italy and Spain: wrong qn maybe at this time, but those guys are given option of deportation or contacting the indian embassy, which they refuse. Hence they are deported back to the last identified port of departure or remain in a limbo

I agree a stricter implementation of Immigration act 1983 must be done to crack down on the agents.

Govt celebrating functions in all countries - shouldn't SGPC be doing this? Ofcourse MEA can always facilitate but budget outlay and leadership must come from SGPC.

He is making some valid points but has expectations from govt are way off the mark.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

Question to Mods:

How is this thread linked to Interfaith dialog?
:crazy:

 

[spnadmin]

Question to Mods:

How is this thread linked to Interfaith dialog?
:crazy:

Actually it was originally posted in the wrong spot -- and I know why. I was too busy with details when I logged into SPN last night and forgot to relocate it for Gyani ji. Thanks for the reminder. Narayanjot Kaur.

 

[Sinister]

As I see there are 2 issues and lets not get mixed up on both:

1. The male female ratio in Punjab
2. Dealing with issues that lead to female foeticide in Punjab.

1. It will be foolhardy to dispute the census data of the Government of India without any alternate authentic and credible data. As everybody residing in India knows that the census exercise is meticulous and a professionally carried out door to door exercise. The ground level workers doing this exercise are local school teachers who have little stake in falsifying the records in an organized mass scale.
Questioning this data will create an atmosphere of incredulity which will put a question mark over your subsequent genuine arguments.

2. There certainly is merit in the argument that Punjab Government is doing little deal with issues that lead to female foeticide or infanticide.
Much more is being done by the Ragis and Kathakars in Punjab notably by people like Bhai Gur Iqbal Singh ji and Giani Pinderpal Singh ji.

Many a times Sikhs are known to have a rush of blood and are known to kill their own otherwise genuine cases in International forums by making wild and unsubstantiated statements and claims.

a wonderful level headed argument that no one can really disagree with.

you can only dispute the data if:
a) you've conducted your own census with your own controls
b) you've got reasonable proof that shows how certain variables may have skewed the data.
c) you've got direct proof that the data was blantantly altered or fabricated before being published.

so my question to Dr. Harsharshinder Kaur is this...do you have any of a, b, or c?

would it not benefit her and her cause if she came at it with this angle of attack rather than the one that simply lays claim to ethnic/religious discrimination?

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

1. as a individual..we dont have all the resources at our disposal.
2.The Direct and immediate action taken to first Transfer Dr to a place 80 KM away and then SACK her without an enquiry smacks of.....and is very suspicipious and lends credence to her "allegations"...JUSTICE has to be SEEN being DONE...and the onus is on the authorities that have all the resources. PROOF of the falsity of her allaegations shoudl coem form the GOI...PROVE her "GUILTY" instead of asking her to prove her "INNOCENCE.":advocate:

 

[Archived_Member_19]

by taking action against her GOI has shared that fact that she is guilty.

You may use the RTI act to get information on her transfer.

 

[spnadmin]

Was Dr. Harshinder Kaur ji a civil service employee or a political appointment? When thinking about her being "guilty" I am wondering "guilty of what?"

It is not a superficial question. Rather if there is evidence of x, y and z and one can show that it violates the conditions of employment for a civil service employee then there would have to be a mechanism for due process - hearings and appeals and arbitration, followed perhaps by court action. If she was a political appointee, and served at will, then she can be fired at any time. Whether she is "guilty" of anything is not an issue. The perception that she has not supported the policies of her benefactors is enough.

There 2 outstanding examples in the US where "doctors" or Surgeons General who, as presidential appointments and approved by the Congress, maintained their right to speak independently on public health issues because they were doctors. When they espoused views opposite to presidential policies and the politics of the ruling party, they were sacked. Jocelyn Elders and C. Everett Koop.

Likewise, scientists (consultants and also political appointees) in the employ of various science administrations of the federal government known to have views that differed from those of the Bush administration were eased out, sacked, persuaded to seek other opportunities, or did not have contracts renewed.

Whatever data is eventually produced in this thread needs to be convincing, because governments always operate at two levels at minimum. There is data, and then there is the way that the data is interpreted. And then there is a third level: the level of data that never sees the light of day. Let's not be hard on India. Let's keep exploring this issue hoping to discover whether Dr. Kaur was a burnt offering or whether she "misunderstood" her role and has suffered the consequences for taking an independent point of view.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

Dr. Harshinder was a Government employee

Doctors in indian govt hospitals are not political appointments but are a part of org which i might put similar to Federal Services in US.

and i don't think she has been sacked. She would have been suspended pending action against her.

 

[spnadmin]

Huck Finn ji

Thank you for your reply. So my next question would be this. As a member of federal services was Dr. Harshinder a member of civil service? Or was she on a list of individuals who are slated for federal positions by the party/parties that control parliament either alone or by coalition? Is there the expectation that doctors in federal service retain their professional independence and some margin to speak independently, or are they expected to uphold the political platform of the government in power?
Do doctors in federal service continue to hold their positions in federal services even when the political party ruling when they were hired later falls out of power?

I am trying to get at what level of real professional independence Dr. Harshinder Kaur had in her role and whether realistically she knew what it was and then used it. (to the chagrin of her superiors)

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Dr. Harshinder was a Government employee

Doctors in indian govt hospitals are not political appointments but are a part of org which i might put similar to Federal Services in US.

and i don't think she has been sacked. She would have been suspended pending action against her.

Huck Ji..

The Past tense in your opening sentence..and the logic in the last sentence self conflict.
Please clarify.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

<<Huck Ji..

The Past tense in your opening sentence..and the logic in the last sentence self conflict.
Please clarify.>>

lol

once suspended, you are a non performing employee- no perks, just basic salary till you clear the investigation

thanks for the catch

 

[Archived_Member_19]

<<hank you for your reply. So my next question would be this. As a member of federal services was Dr. Harshinder a member of civil service? Or was she on a list of individuals who are slated for federal positions by the party/parties that control parliament either alone or by coalition? Is there the expectation that doctors in federal service retain their professional independence and some margin to speak independently, or are they expected to uphold the political platform of the government in power?
Do doctors in federal service continue to hold their positions in federal services even when the political party ruling when they were hired later falls out of power?


I am trying to get at what level of real professional independence Dr. Harshinder Kaur had in her role and whether realistically she knew what it was and then used it. (to the chagrin of her superiors)>>

i might not be 100% accurate how medical postings work but here it is:

She is (was) employee of "Government of Punjab" and not GOI

And if i am not wrong she was a consulting doctor. Such doctors are hired for specialized wings. They are allowed to do private practice as well.

Doctors in government service are a part of a cadre similar to civil services. They are not appointed by a political party and are selected by a test based selection process.

Those cadre are regularly supplemented by specialists from certain areas and they are contractual employees

We might have to investigate the role She was playing

If she was a contractual employee- her appointment would have been done by the State Medical Officer.
She would not have been suspended but her contract terminated.

I still don't understand why GOI is being blamed, it's all between the CMO of the state, State Govt, State medical board and her.

 

[spnadmin]

Huck Finn ji

Thanks for all the information. It helps me put together some of the information more effectively. The next round of questions i would have would probably pertain to the Medical Office policies in Punjab itself. But I have some thinking to do.

 

[Sinister]

So Now the Cat is OUT of the Bag....PUNJAB..and SIKHS are selectively at the receiving end of a vicious propoganda campaign...the netire thing baout Female foeticide..Punjab being the state with highest female-male imbalance..SIKHS beign biggest Kurree Maars in the world...are all a selective persecution and propoganda campaign to MALIGN.
Here is the Complete Interview with Dr Harshinder Kaur...from the Rozana Spokesman Online............. Mirror Website

mirrorfullpage

In my next posting i will translate relevant portions into English so SPNers can get the full picture... SPN has also been "guilty" of propogating this MYTH..as we have several articles on SIKHS/PUNJAB being Numero Uno in Killing of Child Girls !! Hopefully this will set the record straight.

Ok. Because of some free time I actually started pulling up some Data, anything I could find on this subject. According to the stats Punjab is one of the states with the lowest woman to man ratio (about 798 females for 1000 male). Haryana, then followed by the union of Dehli and also Gujurat take 2, 3, 4 respectively. And the current Sikh prime minister scolded them equally.

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal...ujarat-delhi-for-poor-sex-ratio_10042753.html

The data itself meets a consistency standard...because Punjab, Haryana and Delhi are more less similiar from language/culture perspective. If punjab was a .798 and haryana or delhi at say something completely off the chart like .999 then i would raise my eyebrows.

The latest census I could find was the 2001 census published as a document. “2001 Census as Social Document”

Pages 163- 164 onwards:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=h8BgGIFrd9MC&pg=PA166&lpg=PA166&dq=Inderjit+Singh%2Bcensus%2Bpunjab&source=bl&ots=TOcolDp3Zh&sig=CzDlCYFHTIDEkElerO73zqT6D-g&hl=en&ei=RYuASoGqKYG4Nd7_ueoC&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2#v=onepage&q=Inderjit%20Singh%2Bcensus%2Bpunjab&f=false

The statistics from Punjab were given to A. Kumar by the Director of Census Operations of Punjab, Mr. Inderjit Singh…made public in a press conference on March 30th 2001.

SO FAR. I have NOT read in any document or in any Decennial Indian Census conducted by the GOI that reveals or states that Punjab is the leading state in Female foeticide and infanticide. Which leads to conclusion that “the assumption is made from simply viewing the abnormal sex ratio’s” by individuals.

So, what are ALL the variables that can be responsible for the growing discrepancy in the sex ratio?

These are what I could think of:

Influx of male labor (for agriculture)

Female Infanticide/Foeticide

Growth in Disease that targets Woman

Discrimination against Woman…Dietary discrimination…causing shorter life expectancy

Male vs Female homicide rates

Male vs Female Suicide Rates

Male vs Female emigration…Foreign Born ethnically Punjabi males traveling home for marriage more so than Foreign Born ethnically Punjabi Females.


I did come over this canvassing study conducted by Dr. Ajinder Walia, titled Female Foeticide in Punjab: exploring the socio-economic and cultural dimensions.

And her findings are rather disturbing and I highly doubt they have been initiated as some sort of anti-Sikh propaganda (she is sikh herself):


http://www.ideajournal.com/articles.php?id=37

Who is Dr. Ajinder Walia?: is Senior Research Officer at the National Institute of Disaster Management in India. She has a doctorate in Sociology and is actively working in the area of gender issues in Disaster Management. Her other areas of interest are Community Based Disaster Preparedness and Disaster Mental Health. She has a number of research publications to her credit in the area of declining sex ratio, female infanticide and foeticide and gender disparities.

Contact: ajinder@ndim.net

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://nidm.gov.in/images/2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://nidm.gov.in/ajindir.asp&usg=__ta0dzEhvp_VTqaLbbChZ44tTgOI=&h=150&w=98&sz=5&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=NmL2nBMK-E4quM:&tbnh=96&tbnw=63&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dajinder%2Bwalia%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

so in what way is the GOI involved in spreading what? And what is the myth? secondly no religious affiliation is mentioned in any census report...nor does any report try to correlate religious affiliation with sex ratio's.

sorry ... i dont see motive...the conspiracy does not have legs.

:advocate: