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Yogism The Shakat and Tantric philosophy

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by drkhalsa, Dec 30, 2004.

  1. drkhalsa

    drkhalsa
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    Dear Kanawar Sher Singh ji
    Waheguru ji ka Khalsa
    Waheguru ji ki Fateh

    The Pauri
    Eka Maaee Jugat Viaee Tin Chele Parwan

    refers to the Shakat and Tantric philosophy that was very popular on the Indian religious scene a couple of centuries before Guru Nanak Dev ji (Remember Khajuraho temples, 12th century).
    To put the whole thing in perspective we must not think of Hinduism to be a homogenous & coherent stream of thought. The major streams which in some instances are antithetical to one another are: (1) Vaishanism, where Vishnu is the ultimate reality who appears in incarnations to rid this planet of sin, i.e. Ram, Krishan, NarSinh, etc. (2) Shaivism, where Shiv is the ultimate reality and who does not follow the Avtar pattern of Vishnu but is ever present on the Kailash mountain with his consorts. (3) Shakat and Tantric streams, consider the ultimate reality to be a female (hence, the word Maee in Japuji) who creates initially the universe, then the trinity of gods, Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiv. The followers of this female worship her in various Devi forms viz., Kali, Kalika, Durga, Chandi, Laxmi, Ganga, and a host of other Devi forms. The important thing to note in their case is (the point often not realised) that those who are staunch Devi or Shakti followers do not worship the three major gods mentioned above b

    ut rather ridicule them with the understanding that the latter are at a lower plane and are creation of the Godess. This is manifested in the Devi mythology, e.g. in the Durga or Chandi's story she restores the gods in heaven after they all were defeated by the demons. These gods having suffered defeat go to Durga and wait near her abode to ask for her help. One day She comes to have a bath outside when the gods ask for help.( Ik dihare nahwan ayee Rani Durgsah, Indar virtha sunaee apne haal di - Chandi di Vaar, Dasam Granth). Similarly, we see in Dasam Granth, one of the Devi worshipper court poet of Guruji says, Main na Ganesh Pritham Manaoon, Kishen Bishen Kabhoon na Dhiaoon, Kaan Sune Pahechaan na tin ko, .... At the end we have the swayyia we so lovingly ascribe to Guru ji which actually was written by another poet .i.e Pai Gahe Jab te tumre tab te koyoo ankh tare nahin aniyo. Ram Rahim Puran Quran Anek kahain mat ek na maniyo.... Sri Asipan kirpa tumri kar main na kahiyo sab tohe vakhaniyo..

    Here the word Asipan needs to be noted. Kali or Kalika is considered by Tantric Shakats to be the ultimate reality. The iconography shows Kali witha an iron weapon in her hand and the worshippers adore her in this pose. Asi means iron and Asipan means an iron weapon which could be a Kharag or any other similar weapon. The only cult or Hindu religious stream that worships iron or iron weapons is the one that worships Kali. Kali is also considered synonymous with iron metal (Sarabloh).
    We Sikhs in our enthusiasm and lack of understanding of various streams of Hindu belief try to own something which has nothing to do with Sikh thought and is patently Tantric or Shakat (the difference between Tantrics and Shakats is that the former recognis only Kali or Kalika, the latter worship a whole plethora of Devis) We tend to gloat over the idea that Gurji worshiped the sword as God's Shakti. This is not the truth and is a very trivial idea. Shakti is another name for Maya which according to the Gurbani is to be detested and overcome. Then how can tenth Guruji worship something that is another name for Maya. The clever writers who were basically Shakat and occansionly Vaishanav introduced so much of their Tantric ideas in Dasam Granth that the eighteenth century Sikhs innocently accepted these as authentic and absorbed these into Sikh rituals such as Ardas and Rahiras.

    Guru Nanak Dev ji was well aware of not just the Hindu variations but others such as Budhist, Jain, and Muslim as well. In the Pauri in Japuji, Guru ji is simply stating what the Shakats and Tantrics (some these were Sidhs as well) professed as their philosophy as an example.

    Thus, what the Hindu friends of yours are saying is not far from the truth. However, we have to first learn a lot about Hinduism and other traditions extant at the time of Gurujis to see Gurbani in the real perspective. This is the only way we can fight the challenge posed by others bombarding us with clever moves.

    We must first objectively sort out the authentic from adultration especially in Dasam Granth which is our weak point exploited by clever Hindu propagandists.

    Humbly,
    I remain the Charan Dhoor of Sadh Sangat

    Serjinder Singh
     
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  3. Inder singh

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    Serjinder singh

    You are just beating about the bush above.I challenge you to prove your points by citing from Dasam Granth.Otherwise it is a propaganda in favour of your Hindu masters.
     
    #2 Inder singh, Feb 19, 2008
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2008
  4. Archived_Member1

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    who are these "court poets"? which one wrote what? how do you know this? can you cite proof?

    i think the recently surfacing "allergy" to "hindu" thought is making us blind to the true message of Guru Sahib. we spend so much time trying to prove we're not hindus by expunging anything even remotely "hindu" sounding... couldn't we find better use for our time? just a thought... :)


    btw, i agree with Inder veerji above... the anti-dasam bani movement is clearly instigated and encouraged by hindutva who wish to create division within the sikh quam. let us not allow them to win.
     
  5. Inder singh

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    Jasleen kaur ji

    They will write with names such as khalsa and wear gatra from outside their shirt like kala afghana to mislead sikhs.In fact this is disguise to mislead us.

    If this Dr Khalsa has some ethics he should write and tell us how he reached his conclusions?Otherwise it is garbage written to mislead young sikhs.
     
  6. Archived_Member1

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    i agree that this topic can be very misleading... but i'm very surprised to see it coming from DrKhalsa, as he is normally very intelligent and rational. this is why i'd like to see the proofs and sources for the post. i'm honestly quite shocked at this behavior and wonder if someone else is posting misusing his account?:hmm:
     
  7. Inder singh

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    Jasleen Kaur

    I have messed up.Are Dr Khalsa and Serjinder singh same.In all probability not.

    Serjinder singh is a known sikh baiter as he criticizes sikh history,Bana of Khalsa,Amrit sanchar ceremony,Dasam Granth.So he may be a different person.
     
  8. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    DrKhalsa is a rational and intelligent individual, apart from being a doctor. Online Sikh satsang/discussion does change everyone in due course. In the case of drkhalsa, he posted this article on 30-12-2004 - exactly 3 years ago.

    Within those 3 years Internet technology was not as advanced as today. And there were not as many active members.

    Everybody who comes to a site like SPN begins to understand Gurbani by filtering out all other pre-conceptions like Hindu rituals, reincarnation concept, etc. etc.

    Earlier, we carry along ideas that Gurbani is at par level with other occult knowledge. With sangat's influence and discussion of gurbani, we slowly separate the milk from the water.
     
  9. Archived_Member1

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    eek, sorry about that, i didn't notice the original posting date!

    sorry... :(
     
  10. Inder singh

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    Dr Khalsa and Serjinder singh are two different persons.

    Gurbani is gurbani.What do you mean by Hindu concepts and reincarnation?

    Are you telling sikhism does not believe in Reincarnation?In my view it beleives in Reincarnation.It is not Hindu concept.
     
  11. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    Everybody who comes to a site like SPN begins to understand Gurbani by filtering out all other pre-conceptions like Hindu rituals, reincarnation concept, etc. etc.


    The concept of re-incarnation in Hinduism differs from Sikhism. Hinduism has a hierarchy of Gods and the various re-incarnations each God assumes under different eras. Sikhism does not believe in hierarchy of Gods but in one God.

    More Later. Got to go now.
     
  12. Inder singh

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    Namjap

    We are not talking about reincarnation of Gods as your previous post did not mention that.I thought you are talking about human reincarnation.

    Guru ji wrote Chaubis avtar with a purpose and that was to let people know that they are Gods but sent by Akal purakh.There lies the difference as Guru ji finished their Godhood and made them mundane persons,
     
  13. Inder singh

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    I thought you were talking about human reincarnation.

    Guru ji wrote about chaubis avtar and put them under the command of creator God that is akla purakh.So it is different than Hindism here.
     
  14. Archived_Member1

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    i think you are describing incarnation, or avtars. reincarnation is the theory that the soul travels through multiple rebirths until one reaches mukhti.

    incarnation isn't important in sikhi. reincarnation is.
     
  15. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    Jasleen Ji and Inder Singh Ji,

    I commented having in mind drkhalsa's original post which mentions :

    The major streams which in some instances are antithetical to one another are: (1) Vaishanism, where Vishnu is the ultimate reality who appears in incarnations to rid this planet of sin, i.e. Ram, Krishan, NarSinh, etc.

    I thought we were discussing drkhalsa's posting. Sorry for the miscommunication.
     
  16. Inder singh

    Inder singh
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    This post is by one Serjinder singh.The point of discussion is not his post about shakat sect of hindus.The point under discussion is why he labelled Dasam Granth connected to shakatism.That is a lie and if you want to put forward your point in that regard,you are welcome.
     

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