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The Search for Statehood

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by bulleshah, May 21, 2006.

  1. bulleshah

    bulleshah
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    For the most part, the movement for the creation of a separate Sikh homeland, called Khalistan (east-israel ??) is a mission being pursued by so called ‘Diaspora Neo-Sikhs’ who have made some money, have mustered up enough ambition to play politics, are not happy with crumbs being thrown at them by their host societies and, therefore, have chosen to play havoc at home where dollars, DMs and pounds can buy more rabble-raisers than they would in these parts. These protagonists of Khalistan are courting martyrdom by proxy. They have nothing much to loose if the movement fails.

    Their outrage at Operation Blue Star is as phoney as a three-rupee-note. I, for one, hold no brief for the army action in Amritsar. (The terrorist misusing the sanctuary of the Golden Temple could have been, and should have been, routed out much earlier and in a far simpler operation. Mrs Gandhi was badly advised at the time and she paid for it with her life.) But where were these ‘Diaspora’ defenders of their faith when Bhindaranwale and his gun-toting goons were fortifying the innermost sanctums of this holy shrine and defiling Guru Nanak’s message of peace and harmony.

    Thankfully at last that Bhindrawalla was killed in a 'Rat-Hole' inside the Golden Temple. And I am proud of my army getting rid of that traitor. He was no different from the Pathan youth who was taken in as a God-Son by the tenth Guru had stabbed and killed the Guru while he was asleep.

    The 10th Guru, Guru Gobind Singh, the creator of Khalsa, also gave his life and the life of his sons, defending the profundity of the Hindu tradition. When he declared that henceforth there shall be no more temporal Gurus and that in future the Sikhs should follow the teachings of their forefathers contained in the Granth, he gave us a kind of written constitution which could not be tampered with the opportunists on the path of history. When he uttered ‘take the Good Book to be the Guru’ (Guru maniyo Granth), he did not create a new idol for idiots to worship; he urged them to use their brains and read the teachings of their forefathers and absorb the profundity thereof to their lives.

    Culturally, ethnically, ancestry-wise, the Hindus, the Sikhs and Mussalmans of Punjab are no different from each other. They are, almost all, plain, hardworking, gregarious peasants who love life and lead it boisterously. This demand for a state called Khalistan has no validity on any ground.

    To enumerate some reasons for this ‘contentious’ claim of mine, I would like to point out that :

    (1) not all Sikhs come from Punjab; they are spread all over the subcontinent. Tenth guru, Guru Gobind Singh himself was born in Patna, Bihar and did not even speak Punjabi: most of his work is composed in Awadhi, Braj-bhasha and Farsi.

    (2) Sikhs have never had a state. They made conquests and raised kingdoms, i.e. the Sikh kingdom of Ranjit Singh. Kingdoms don’t constitute a state and don’t allocate a nationality to the dwellers of that kingdom; they merely denote a temporal possession which is like quicksand and often changes with the passage of time.

    The Neo Sikh fail to understand that Sikhism was not just the beginning of a thought process but also a culmination of the Bhakti-Movement that started in India long before Guru Nanak. Kabir (1398-1495) and Namdev (1270-1350) were not even Punjabi. I, son of an amrit-dhari Sikh, has always been brought believing that I am a Hindu. They say, "Read the Granth-Sahib and you will know that Sikhism is different from Hinduism," I would like to ask self styled scholars on religion how the Granth-Sahib (composed in Punjabi, Persian, medieval Prakrit Hindi and Marathi, Sanskrit as well as Arabiccan) be considered the ultimate when it does not carry even a single composition by Guru Gobind Singh except , Slok 54 (attributed), panna 1429, Raga Jayawanti. The only book that carries the compositions of Guru Gobind Singh is the Dasam-Granth but even the SGPC, leave alone provide for reading, doesn’t even list it on its official web-site. The tenth Guru was born (a very important chapter in Indian history) in Patna but Gurudwara Patna-Sahib finds no mention in the list of Historical Gurudwaras in the SGPC web-site. Why do the Hard-liners continue to deny the only source of the tenth Gurus compositions ? Is it because, in the Dasam-Granth, originally composed in Brij-Bhasha by the Guru, Gautam Buddha finds mentions as an ‘avatar’ of Vishnu ? If Guru Gobind Singh gave the Sikh two books to follow why did the akalis 200 years after his passing replace the Dasam-Granth with just one under the influence of the British ? The British law still states that Sikh are not just a separate religion but an altogether distinct race from the Hindus. That renders a person like me without a parentage.

    Sikhism means following ones own feet and searching for ones own truth instead of being just a parrot prompted by other parrots. And I'm sure Nanak, Buddha, Krishna would approve. The Neo-Sikh and the Khalistanis can continue to believe that a Sikh is distinct from a Hindu but I know that they believe so, not because they are a separate religion but because they want to be.


    Thanks.
     
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  3. ISDhillon

    ISDhillon
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    that must be the biggest pile of trash i have ever read on this site, go back to the mandir and pray to the 8-legged freaks you call a god.:}--}:
     
  4. drkhalsa

    drkhalsa
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    Your statement doesnot make any sense

    Caliing Khalistan East isreal is just nonsense Isreal was not formed by armed struggle but infact once it was formed it was defended by armed struggle . on the very second day of freedom it was attacked by Arabs

    About Khalistan as pointed out earlier on the website ( By SIKH but you seems t ignore anything written here and go on prpagaying you self created baseless ideas))was not planned to be a sikh state but instead True democratic state where some idiot Politicins could not spoil the peacful living of all Hindu Sikhs Muslims living in Punjab. And Sikhs Know how live Gracefully with with others even when they are monrity as Rightly pointed by you in the time of Maharaja Ranjit Singh .

    Now Second point , And Learn this for rest of your Life and Dont rpeat your adsurd ideas again

    Shasters or Wepons or Dasam Patsha are placed in AkalTakhat and carrying wepons does not Disrupt the Sanctity of our religious places and the Place in Question is Akal Takhat Where Sixth Master Sri Guru Hargobind Ji Beastowed Miri amd Piri to Sikhism and Marked the Active Armed Phase of Sikh Development .
    But Definately Killing thousands of inncent People in the Premises and Literally Blowing down the Building with tank do Disrupt the Sanctity of Gurudwars and religious places
    And as always has happened in many times before with the will of Akal the person responsible had to pay with his/her blood the price of it

    Now
    The imortant thing here I dont know what is on your mind when you use Phrase Rat Hole

    But Particularly I think that The chances of having Rat Holes is more in your Mandirs and Temples Because your godly Figure like Ganesh ji Loves to ride on It

    About Bhindranwale I am not going to convince you about anything asuume what ever you like but he was just Target of Political Game played by People like Indra Gandhi and he was Simple enough at his heart to understand the cruel politics
    But definately he ws the man Who use to say gain and gain that Hindu should become Good Hindu Muslim Should become good Muslim and had many Hindu loyal friends


    Here I would like to inform that Issue of Dasam Granth it is better if you dont disscus ( It will be good for your mental health ) As it is essentially serve a god purpose to Answer Misguided Hindu / Aryasmaji who is like Gwachi GAAN or Lost Cow . It s the book which make real fun of almost all the dieties in the form of various stories in which Shivji Brahma Vishnu run for their life and even become Tranvestite ( wera womens cloath ) to save their life

    Infact it is debateble issue in Sikh Panth and Offcourse It has been approve at Akal Takhat that It is written By tenth master

    About SGPC whose functioni g I doubt myself and which is controlled by Idiots and trators like BADAL so I take no Offence what ever you say about them

    So it is kind of Mis Fortune of Sikh panth that we havent arrived at concensous about tenth master Bani Other wise People like you have dared posting your ideas

    Before reading your post I was Just Doubting you and your misguided Ideas But now saying you are son of Amritdhari Father you have made even your father questionable

    So I advise you that keep it yourself otherwise as British has left you without Parentage your misguided pursuit will make your parentage really questionable!

    I again assert here for your information that Sikhism is not for punjabi alone infact it is just coincidence that most of the Sikhs live in Punjab Infact it is a Universal Faith


    As rightly mentioned by you Sikhs are not just for punjab so they wil take over whole Bharat Nation and make it khalistan and as The sikh scripture ids written in so many languages what else proof you are looking for . it very clearly signals that its message is going to take over all these people




    Jatinder Singh
     
  5. Sinister

    Sinister
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    >>>Culturally, ethnically, ancestry-wise, the Hindus, the Sikhs and Mussalmans of Punjab are no different from each other.<<<
    Oooo so thats the card trick your trying to play, well then I guess an indian is not ethnically different from a jamaican either- considering we all share a common hunter-gatherer traditions and all came from Africa through the evolutionary chain?

    This is where you are wrong!

    Again this subject comes down to group formation (READ ANYTHING ON GROUP FORMATION, GEORGE SIMMEL or any other sociologist)

    A Hindu is distinct from a Sikh (Khalistani) on both an ideological level as well as on the group level, only a dimwit would see otherwise!

    Haven't you ever heard the word COLLECTIVE CONSCIENCE??????

    Your post seriously lacks a common understanding of rationality because you have failed differentiate ideological religion from institutional religion! HINDUISM EXISTS ON AN INSITUTIONAL LEVEL AS DOES SIKHI!
    They are in their domains entirely different entities!

    PROOF OF THE COLLECTIVE CONSCIOUS WITHIN HINDUISM (HINDUISM AS AN INSTITUTIONAL ENTITY):
    As I have said before:
    Hindu's have a collective identity, a sense of binding force that allowed them to carry out the genocide amongst the sikhs in 1984 (note: nationality did not unite the hindu's because their existed another minority within India, the muslims. The muslims did not participate in the Genocide). The Hindu is distinct from the sikh because they have their sense of the collective and sikhs have their own.

    sorry if I sound harsh but,
    From the likes of your post something tells me you have no conception of societal structure and the functioning of its respective divisions.
     
  6. bulleshah

    bulleshah
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    drkhalsa,

    Thats a typical Neo-Sikh response coz only a Neo-Sikh will believe that it's impossible to say any thing against Sikhism. But you have missed my point. Bet allow me to inform you that I am my own Sikh, clean-shaven, son of an amrit-dhari father anda Sikhnee mother and belong to a family that have no problem in calling a spade a spade and never allow some semi-literate Granthi to interpret the Guru's teachings for us.

    In all probability every Indian might have to face the same predicament and in order to allay your fears that I am some khakhi-short lets replace the Granth with the Geeta. Any ways there is nothing that Nanak said that was already not in the Geeta.

    All Sikhs are not Khalsa and aren't actually compulsorily required to be. There are other sects within the Sikh community which don’t subscribe to the virulent and violent streak of Sikhism to which some prosperous, foreign-based, land-owning jats have resorted to.

    If we have to go by the definition of A sikh by western Akali Neo-Sikh, shaven Sikhs (or even those who use ‘fixo’ or other similar cosmetic products, to smarten-up their facial hair) are not true Sikhs; the Amli Sikhs and Ram-garhiya Sikhs are not a part of ‘true Sikhdom’; then those who eat meat, [close down all eateries in Southall of London and Soho Road of Birmingham] and those who consume alcohol [shoot that Sikh gentleman who was seen all across the world on television, swigging Whiskey from a bottle in the middle of a public part in Ealing, in mid-eighties,and shouting "Raaj kare gaa, Khaalsaa!"in his fulsome voice) or other intoxicants defile Sikh faith; and those who do not subscribe to the demand for a separate Sikh state don’t even belong to human race. Therefore, if the demand for an independent Sikh homeland in Punjab were to be considered on the basis of a ‘Sikh majority’, there are hardly any Sikhs left in Punjab or anywhere else.

    Within my family, there are many members who are shaven (Mona) Sikhs; there are some who observe the sanctity of the five ‘K’s and are Amritdharis. Hindus and Sikhs have an unbroken tradition of sharing bread and blood: Roti-Beti ki rishta. There is no ethnic difference or divide between the two communities.

    Also this talk of Hindus oppressing their Sikh brethren, and breaches of human rights is rather tenuous. Police brutality, and violation of citizens’ human rights, is an ugly fact of life in most countries of the East. Unforgivable, but a fact of life nevertheless. That requires a change in the ‘police-culture’ in these countries, not a rush for the creation of separate homelands for anyone who can terrorise the civilian population of the land.

    To maintain thet internal needs for keeping a faith and an identity alive, the Sikh community settled abroad has shown commendable resourcefulness and zeal but these neither require nor justify demands for Khalistan, ‘the land of the pure’ and to play havoc with the secular credentials of a major democratic power in the post-colonial world.

    Learned Pundits of politics in the West don't actuall support them and will some day find that the shoe has started to pinch.

    I can’t say that I’m altogether surprised at this psycho response. It demonstrates the lack of maturity and erratic nature that I wish to help expose. I am not claiming that all Sikhs have this immature and erratic nature, but those who do need to be exposed for what they are: bigots who try to censor views and opinions that are different to their own.

    If you read my views carefully, there is no incitement; there is no glorification or support of violence or hatred of any kind (unlike several Akli Neo-Sikh preacheres that glorify Khalistani terrorists who used to gun down dozens of civilians on a daily basis). The reason why you are getting so annoyed at what I have to say is simply because I am talking about historical facts that the Neo-Sikh want to cover up. You are just getting uptight at an alternative way of looking at historical events, and trying to suppress views that don’t agree with your own.

    What you say arise from the same sort of mentality that led to the recent bomb blasts outside theatres in Delhi. The blasts ended up claiming three innocent lives, just because the theatres were showing something that certain Sikhs wanted banned. The largest Sikh organisation in the world, the SGPC, even supported the attempt to have the film banned! It also reminds one of the destructive scenes in the British city of Birmingham where a group of Sikhs vandalised a theatre in order to try to stop it from showing a play which they felt was anti-Sikh (the play’s name was 'Bezthi', and was written by Gurpreet Kaur Bhatti who is herself a Sikh).

    Such behaviour has no place in a civilised society. Whether it be a small example like your response to my views, or a large incident like the bomb blasts in Delhi - attempts at censorship are always wrong. My views just goes on to show that being a Sikh by name, or a Brahmin, or any other group doesn't render one holier or better than another.

    I am just exposing the various myths that are propagated by neo-Sikhs of today. These myths, which unfortuately often form the basis of a young British and Canadian Sikhs upbringing, are erroneous, bloat their egos and promote hatred towards Hindus and and thus India. The myths are created and propagated for political purposes, and many Sikhs have fallen a victim to them. I hope my views will help liberate some minds.

    One need not take offence, but rather consider what is being said. I myself am a Sikh and have all the right in the world(India is a free country) to criticise things I don't agree with. The Sikh Gurus themselves were an example of this tradition of critique. What I say serves to give the other side of the story, and its contents should be used to counter the silly myths some of todays Western Sikhs have created, and labour under. Sikh in India need to learn to counter these myths when they are encountered because most neo-Sikh myths, even though they are aimed at Hindus, harm the Sikh most.

    What is used to separate Sikhism from Hinduism is a distorted straw-man interpretation of Hinduism. This is where we need to bring balance by emphasizing democratic Sikhi.

    The anti-Brahmin venom of Neo-Sikh is not essentially a Sikh response , for there are at least two Brahmins in SGPS, but the frustrated rant of the hidden Jatt in the garb of a Sikh. He wants to settle the score for his past low social position for which he regards Brahmin and Hinduism as the responsible parties(rightly or wrongly).

    I hve considered that much of modern Neo-Sikhism is driven by not not 'discrimination' 'genocide' or other nonsense but by the notion of the SUPREMACY of the sikhs - and that supremacy being over the Hindus including the mazabi,Noormehlia, Nirankari, Sanatani, Nihang who consider themselves Hindus and therefore it is the Hindus who must be continoulsy put down.

    This is primarily driven by racism, a plague which aflicts all us Punjabis but in particular the NRI Sikhs who often beleive the most appalling prejudices about Hindus and beleive themselves to be a genetically, racially, hisotricaly and dharmicaly superior to the Hindus and had once had even going so far as to compare DNA strands but later retracted.

    The Neo-Sikh dream about being the new Jews. I fear their dreams will come true.
    Only in a proportaionately reverse order.

    Thanks.
     
  7. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Gurfateh

    Das can say one thing over here.

    So far there was no one here who was as such supporting separte Sikh Nation and in fact this Bulleshah does not know that Sant Ji cadre were full of Hindus also.

    Not only that but who were supportinh Sant Ji he did not know?

    Anyway where in his So caled Hindu books term Hindu comes he did not know?


    Das wanted him toprove that why we are neo Sikh(yes Das is neo convert sohe is neo Sikh),he could not.

    Agernda of Gurus was not only India but to reagain the world.We can accomodate all belviersand sereve non beivlers.

    We can have World as one nation.But this blody indianism Or hinduismsupport parting of worldas British,Pakistani,German etc.

    Dasfinds that this guys is cuting and pasting and it is good.

    But das is awareas as of Sikh or Muslim or Chritain mentailtyof semitc Faiths.

    More just to self boost his loosing ego of artificial faith,he is making reslove in the minds of Sikhs more strong or it may lead to more Sikhs becmong supporters Of Khalistan.Such mentilty did made Pakistan.

    Sometimes das thinks that name Bulleshah is Muslim name and perhapshe could be one of the pray of Das on the west sideof Indian border and on the Job to provoke Sikhs against Hindus.

    Such people,when it comes to Hindus Run away after inviting troubles for them.

    At that time Anti hindusim peoplemay have tocome andprotect them.

    Das was just thinking that what proof dowehave that Bulleshah is not a Paki,trying to arise passioans in Sikhs and divert it against Hindus?


    Das can say that such writng itslef are from the person,who is full of bias.

    why do there is trouble with Hindus in Assaam or Manpur?

    Or why Naxals are not letting das rest?

    If you are realy son of Hindu like Das himslef then better take care of them.

    And if you have gutsgoand say this on the faceof Sikhs in UK or Cananda or say one sitting one the breatof you Bharat Mata on HP,punajb borg\der and supported by Congress Government.

    why das is saying it over here is that as far as das is concerned over here ost of Sikhs arenot the like one which you are trying to potray.

    But as we have comunty based faith(unlike racial hinduism,which even at one timesupported Adolf Hitlerastobehold Arya as race,while it is also a faith).Even your condemenignand talking about such people willmake our younger genration attracted towrads them.

    Yuo can talk more and more but rember,over here and at other Sikh sites also,such things will goreverse to your intention.Das knows,the faith and it is guranted that it will happen.


    Das agree to mnay things you route but your style proves that you are never A Sikh but an imposter,either actaulydisguntled hindutva guy or perhapsone soldout to Pakistan as mnay ofyouown Lauh Purush Advani was.

    Can you tell das even a single of your Hindu leader we can get inspiration,While we do not dirth of guys read to die for thier casue in our Faith.

    There could be something that scarfise gestrue comes.

    But as Hindu blood is in you and youcan not think outside India and are selfish only to your race if at all you are a Hindu.
     
  8. drkhalsa

    drkhalsa
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    Dear Bulleshah

    Thanks for the response !

    First of all I will ask for any Forgiveness if my response was bit hrash or bitter but I did it intentially just to test you as a person ( As I am one of the moderator here)

    Now Dear Bulleshah

    as i mentioned earlier YOu are definately Misguided and most probably on purpose ( as pointed by Vijaydeep as he more expert on such issues)

    And most importantly Misinformed about everything including Sikhism , General Knowledge and also History

    Now I have no Interest left in you as I have conculded that you are here to preach and not inquire in Sikhi So best of luck and I will not disturb untill unless you behave really badly on the forum

    Few Things for your and others reading this disscusion

    1.I have no relation with UK,USA Culture or Sikhs in specific but bulleshaw is free to call what evername he chooses

    2.I have nothing Against Hindus /Muslim or what so ever no matter where they belong and I am strongly Against Armed Struggle for Any Khalistan and people on this forum know this better from by presense here

    3. Infact I can say by challenge all with Akals Grace that if need arises in future I will prove more Nationalistic and patriotic than average selfish HIndu how will just prefer closing there eyes at time of need

    By saying so I jsut want to say that what Sikhism has taught me is to Work as instument of AKal and be part of fight against injustice whether it India or what ever place in World


    4. SIKH Rehat maryada clearly says About meat eating and it is alowed (except Halal) but still every body has there preferences ( may be like your Amritdhari family members)

    You rightly pointed out that Alcohol just like other Intoxicant are prohibited in Sikhi

    5.YOur mention about Play Behzti
    either you are ill informed or you deliberately do so but just make it clear that this play was not Anti sikh but wasmade by some body who was quite insenstive to sikh feeling even though born in sikh family like you
    And in the play the objection was not against the play but against the various symbols and Guru Ji saroop uses and potraying of rape scene by granthi in premesis ( As it was Fiction so personally me many others like me had no objections against it) Theater was infirmed peacefully to alter the various things including Religious signs but they disagreed nad there was no violence involved except a single act of stone throwing by irritaed people standing outside Theater sincemorning but still Play wass not stoppped and For your information this play was officialy brought down later on


    6. as mentioned earlier It has become your habit to ask and paste same things again and again even they have been answered alredy just Like You Say Guru Nanak Dev Ji had Nothing New to say amd so on

    7. In last I will agin say that as it might appear to you no body here is trying to prove or really believe in this idea that Sikhs have SUPREMACY or whatever .
    Sikhism is for humility and sikh for a humble being but the one who know well how to tackle nonsense because he is SAINT SOILDER as well

    And you anybody can become even YOu but not just by pointing what Guru NANAK wrote Wrote or MIseed But instead reading and applying in your life whether it is GEETA or Guru Granth Sahib which ever you ego finds Handy




    Jatinder Singh





    So please Grow up !
     
  9. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Gurfateh

    Das can say that there aremany internal issues of Hindus like Naxislim or ulfaism metisim,which need more things to elaborate.

    Anyway if bulleshah has faith in God then let him understand that as he was making fun of Sikhs and thier nationhood,

    only Hindu Nation of the wrold ie Nepal is now secular.So hindus lost thier last nation and that is within last one weak.Person gets punshed yet reapets sin.This is only the beginging.

    Mrs Sonia Mano will do all that for them to didivde them as writtasn in thier text that at one timeBrahmins of thier kinds will be found only between Himlayas and Ganges(Bhavishay Purana),Bulleshah fights against thier own Purana and own demigod Vishnu.

    do support caste and propogate it,Those whoso ever are lfet in hindusim will leeave it.14% of indians are upper caste and only 2% of them are pro caste.

    Otehr lowers castes may have own wrong caste condieration didving further the socilty.
     
  10. bulleshah

    bulleshah
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    drkhalsa,

    HTML:
     
    4. SIKH Rehat maryada clearly says About meat eating and
    it is alowed (except Halal) but still every body has there preferences
    ( may be like your Amritdhari family members)
    
    Mardana, Nanak's companion, used to sing devotional songs of Kabir, Ravidas,
    Trilochan, Beni, Dhanna and Nanak. He also composed verses, three of which are
    included in the Adi Granth in 'Bihagre ki Var'. They are against the use of wine
    which brings about misery, lust, pride, self-conceit, falsehood, ill health and disease.
    He says :

    "The barmaid is misery, wine is lust; man is the drinker
    The cup filled with worldly love is wrath, and it is served by pride
    The company is false and covetous, and is ruined by excess of drink
    Instead of such wine make good conduct thy clarified butter, and modesty thy meat to eat
    Such things, O Nanak, are obtained by the Guru's favour; by par-taking of them sins depart."

    Then there is Kabir in the Guru Granth-ji :
    ja-o sabh meh ayk khudaa-ay kahat ha-o ta-o ki-o murgee maarai. ||1||
    "Je tuhn eh aakhda hain ki khuda sab jeevan vich maujood hai taan murgi kyon maarda hain"
    You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? ||1||

    page 1350, Guru Granth-ji.

    Why do you need some Hukamaama or some Rehat Maryada. Is the Guru Grath not enough.
    When the Dasam-Pitah said 'sab sikhaan ko hukum hai Guru manyo Granth' that's exactly
    what he meant. He never meant Guru manyo SGPC clowns.

    OK...Guru Gobing ordered a few goats to be killed. Someone please inform me
    as to what he relished most. Pota ? Kalegi ? Seena ? Kapoora ? Paya soup ?

    Grow up...

    OK...there is some verse by Nanak in the Guru-Granth-Ji. But what does it mean.
    Only that Nank and Kabir don't really agree with each other on everything.
    They both can't be right.The Guru-Granth or for that matter any scripture is not to be taken at face value.

    Thanks.
     
  11. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Gurfateh

    das often see Bro Bulleshah going after Sikhs being formed to rpotect Hindus.

    Thing is hindus by themselves are great and power full so why should other comminty be formed.As a Sikh,Faiths ahs been rpotecting all in needs andn not only Hindus.

    And Guru clearly states in Ugrdanti that when Khalsa Panth will roar in universe,Faith will be awake and Hindus' all mist will run away.

    If we use Gurbani greemer and let it sound with bindi and n so it way be like thatb

    Hindus all mist,will be broken.

    no Hindu can say like that.

    Anyway never in hindu a scriputre or community is givne the status of Guru.


    since the time of First master pseudo Brahminism is there to end us.But we are not Budhist as we have faith in our God and who is in all hindus also.Thier own power lies in us as our God only controls them.
     
  12. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Gurfateh

    bulleshah Ji,


    you have only taken one line.

    Seee the first line and which will be slap on the face of your filthy hindutva ideas.

    dom not behold holy Vedas,Holy Bible and Holy Kurana as false but false are who do not understand that.


    If yuo say God is in all then(Oh Kazi) why you kill chicken(By Halal).

    and read the whole verse where it is writtan that body and blood both Go to soil so why to do Halal.

    As in Kattebs also God is shown in all and in fact that in Sura 3 and 5 of Holy Kuran usage of blood to eat for Mohtaj is OK and we man are all mohtaj.

    which of you hindu book says that holy bible and Holy Kurans are in same line of Holy Vedas and these two books are true and those who do not understand them are false.

    Well by very same verse as you ahve not understood Holy Kateeb,yuo are false.


    and read 14 ang of Guru Granth Saihb,guru tells that taste is there in meat and sweet and in houses and to marry wife.

    And non is forbiddan.

    All verses are from Akal and not from any humanas you think.

    Then another thing term Madu may be pride which you have of your caste ie hindu and you defned it and it is more bad then Madira ie wine.

    Das loves beeef of your mother cow.And if you want in India it is openly sold.

    and in Punjab,in Dera Bassi and more in amritsar area your very own Hindu Harijan kill cows and profit goes to Hindu Pandits and Lala.

    Stray cattles comes from Hindus themselves.

    Only one who oppse are men of Sant Ji,whom you tag as terrosts Damdami Taksal.These guys killed many buthcers in past.But you said that Sikhs kill hindus.

    Das is not Hindu but in old scriptues say holy Vedas or Madhuparak Sanskara of Brahmins Granths,We ahve beef mixed with hony,

    Guest is Goghnata or killer of cow as guest is treated with feast of beef in old Aryans.

    Only those people,who called you hindu(Dark) ie pagan Farsis did worship cow.and cow worship like hindu is foregn thing.:whisling:
     
  13. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    what type of person are you.you started topic on khalistan and now you are becoming sant mahatama and preaching that whether sikhs should eat meat or not
    there are many threads on this site about meat.
     
  14. bulleshah

    bulleshah
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    vijaydeepsingh,

    HTML:
     
    you have only taken one line.
    Seee the first line and which will be slap on the face
    of your filthy hindutva ideas.
    
    OK...lets see the complete verse...

    logaa bharam na bhoolahu bhaa-ee.
    O people, O Siblings of Destiny, do not wander deluded by doubt.


    khaalik khalak khalak meh khaalik poor rahi-o sarab thaaN-ee. ||1|| rahaa-o.
    The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation,

    totally pervading and permeating all places. ||1||Pause||

    maatee ayk anayk bhaaNt kar saajee saajanhaarai.
    The clay is the same, but the Fashioner has fashioned it in various ways.


    naa kachh poch maatee kay bhaaNday naa kachh poch kumbhaarai. ||2||
    There is nothing wrong with the pot of clay -

    there is nothing wrong with the Potter. ||2||

    sabh meh sachaa ayko so-ee tis kaa kee-aa sabh kachh ho-ee.
    The One True Lord abides in all; by His making, everything is made.


    hukam pachhaanai so ayko jaanai bandaa kahee-ai so-ee. ||3||
    Whoever realizes the Hukam of His Command, knows the One Lord.

    He alone is said to be the Lord's slave. ||3||

    alhu alakh na jaa-ee lakhi-aa gur gurh deenaa meethaa.
    The Lord Allah is Unseen; He cannot be seen. The Guru has

    blessed me with this sweet molasses.

    kahi kabeer mayree sankaa naasee sarab niranjan deethaa. ||4||3||
    Says Kabeer, my anxiety and fear have been taken away;

    I see the Immaculate Lord pervading everywhere. ||4||3||

    bayd katayb kahhu mat jhoothay jhoothaa jo na bichaarai.
    Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false.

    Those who do not contemplate them are false.

    ja-o sabh meh ayk khudaa-ay kahat ha-o ta-o ki-o murgee maarai. ||1||
    You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? ||1||

    -- Guru Granth-Ji --http://www.{url not allowed}/sggs/translation/1350.html

    - -
    - -

    gurugranthdarpan.com also say the same :
    http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/1350.html

    Thanks.
     
  15. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    bulle shah please also stop eating vegetables kabir ji also said that god is in the leaves.

    ??????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?
    satgur jaagtaa hai day-o. ||1|| rahaa-o.
    The True Guru is the Living Lord. ||1||Pause||
    ?????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ?
    ?????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ?
    barahm paatee bisan daaree fool sankarday-o.
    Brahma is in the leaves, Vishnu is in the branches, and Shiva is in the flowers.
    ???? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???
    ???? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???
    teen dayv partakh toreh karahi kis kee say-o. ||2||
    When you break these three gods, whose service are you performing? ||2||
    so stop eating vegetables also
     
  16. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Gurfateh

    Dear Bulleshah from your past record,that like you do it in Sanatan Dhrami text you still want to misqoute Gurbani.

    Frist leanr Awadhi and then comment.


    ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ
    प्रभाती ॥
    parbhaatee.
    Prabhaatee:

    ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ
    बेद कतेब कहहु मत झूठे झूठा जो न बिचारै ॥
    bayd katayb kahhu mat jhoothay jhoothaa jo na bichaarai.
    Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.

    ਜਉ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਕਹਤ ਹਉ ਤਉ ਕਿਉ ਮੁਰਗੀ ਮਾਰੈ ॥੧॥
    जउ सभ महि एकु खुदाइ कहत हउ तउ किउ मुरगी मारै ॥१॥
    ja-o sabh meh ayk khudaa-ay kahat ha-o ta-o ki-o murgee maarai. ||1||
    You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? ||1||

    ਮੁਲਾਂ ਕਹਹੁ ਨਿਆਉ ਖੁਦਾਈ
    मुलां कहहु निआउ खुदाई ॥
    mulaaN kahhu ni-aa-o khudaa-ee.
    O Mullah, tell me: is this God's Justice?

    ਤੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਕਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਜਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
    तेरे मन का भरमु न जाई ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
    tayray man kaa bharam na jaa-ee. ||1|| rahaa-o.
    The doubts of your mind have not been dispelled. ||1||Pause||

    ਪਕਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਆਨਿਆ ਦੇਹ ਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਮਾਟੀ ਕਉ ਬਿਸਮਿਲਿ ਕੀਆ
    पकरि जीउ आनिआ देह बिनासी माटी कउ बिसमिलि कीआ ॥
    pakar jee-o aani-aa dayh binaasee maatee ka-o bismil kee-aa.
    You seize a living creature, and then bring it home and kill its body; you have killed only the clay.

    ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪ ਅਨਾਹਤ ਲਾਗੀ ਕਹੁ ਹਲਾਲੁ ਕਿਆ ਕੀਆ ॥੨॥
    जोति सरूप अनाहत लागी कहु हलालु किआ कीआ ॥२॥
    jot saroop anaahat laagee kaho halaal ki-aa kee-aa. ||2||
    The light of the soul passes into another form. So tell me, what have you killed? ||2||

    ਕਿਆ ਉਜੂ ਪਾਕੁ ਕੀਆ ਮੁਹੁ ਧੋਇਆ ਕਿਆ ਮਸੀਤਿ ਸਿਰੁ ਲਾਇਆ
    किआ उजू पाकु कीआ मुहु धोइआ किआ मसीति सिरु लाइआ ॥
    ki-aa ujoo paak kee-aa muhu Dho-i-aa ki-aa maseet sir laa-i-aa.
    And what good are your purifications? Why do you bother to wash your face? And why do you bother to bow your head in the mosque?

    ਜਉ ਦਿਲ ਮਹਿ ਕਪਟੁ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਗੁਜਾਰਹੁ ਕਿਆ ਹਜ ਕਾਬੈ ਜਾਇਆ ॥੩॥
    जउ दिल महि कपटु निवाज गुजारहु किआ हज काबै जाइआ ॥३॥
    ja-o dil meh kapat nivaaj gujaarahu ki-aa haj kaabai jaa-i-aa. ||3||
    Your heart is full of hypocrisy; what good are your prayers or your pilgrimage to Mecca? ||3||

    ਤੂੰ ਨਾਪਾਕੁ ਪਾਕੁ ਨਹੀ ਸੂਝਿਆ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਮਰਮੁ ਜਾਨਿਆ
    तूं नापाकु पाकु नही सूझिआ तिस का मरमु न जानिआ ॥
    tooN naapaak paak nahee soojhi-aa tis kaa maram na jaani-aa.
    You are impure; you do not understand the Pure Lord. You do not know His Mystery.

    ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਭਿਸਤਿ ਤੇ ਚੂਕਾ ਦੋਜਕ ਸਿਉ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ॥੪॥੪॥
    कहि कबीर भिसति ते चूका दोजक सिउ मनु मानिआ ॥४॥४॥
    kahi kabeer bhisat tay chookaa dojak si-o man maani-aa. ||4||4||
    Says Kabeer, you have missed out on paradise; your mind is set on hell. ||4||4||

    Ang 1350

    and whole verse istotreated as section.

    Or if das use your way das can ruin the meaing of Holy Gita by taking Last line of succeding and firstline of preceeeding verse.


    open your eyes and it is anti Halal.But oh Yuo are are Hindu,who does not has eye.

    Gurfateh

    As per few interpeation of holy Kuran blood is unpure so unfit to be eaten.
     
    #15 vijaydeep Singh, May 24, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  17. bulleshah

    bulleshah
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    vijaydeepsingh,

    HTML:
     
    and whole verse istotreated as section.
     
    Or if das use your way das can ruin the meaing of Holy Gita by
    taking Last line of succeding and firstline of preceeeding verse.
    
    Not just that...The words Mullah or Brahmin if replaced with the words
    Granthi or Sikh too appear to be really apt...

    "The self-willed manmukhs read and recite; they are called Pandits-spiritual scholars.
    But they are in love with duality, and they suffer in terrible pain. Intoxicated with vice,
    they understand nothing at all. They are reincarnated, over and over again”

    “The self-willed manmukhs read and recite; they are called Sikh-spiritual scholars.
    But they are in love with duality, and they suffer in terrible pain. Intoxicated with vice,
    they understand nothing at all. They are reincarnated, over and over again.“

    "Why, O my Brahmin, do you not chant the Lord's Name? If you don't chant the Lord's Name,
    O Pandit, you will only suffer in hell. You think that you are high, but you take food from the
    houses of the lowly; you fill up your belly by forcibly practicing your rituals. On the fourteenth
    day, and the night of the new moon, you go out begging; even though you hold the lamp
    in your hands, still, you fall into the pit. You are a Brahmin, and I am only a weaver from Benares.
    How can I compare to you? Chanting the Lord's Name, I have been saved; relying on the Vedas,
    O Brahmin, you shall drown and die."

    “Why, O my Granthi, do you not chant the Lord's Name? If you don't chant the Lord's Name,
    O Khalasa, you will only suffer in hell. You think that you are high, but you drink alcohol and
    dance in discos; you fill up your belly by forcibly practicing your rituals. On every night you
    go out to nightclubs; even though you call yourself a Singh, you get fall into the pit drunk.
    You are a Sikh, and I am only a weaver from Benares. How can I compare to you? Chanting
    the Lord's Name, I have been saved; relying on the Guru Granth, O Sikh, you shall drown and die.“

    "The man-eaters say their prayers. Those who wield the knife wear the sacred thread around
    their necks. In their homes, the Brahmins sound the conch. They too have the same taste.
    False is their capital, and false is their trade. Speaking falsehood, they take their food.
    The home of modesty and Dharma is far from them. O Nanak, they are totally permeated
    with falsehood. The sacred marks are on their foreheads, and the saffron loin-cloths are
    around their waists; in their hands they hold the knives - they are the butchers of the world!
    Wearing blue robes, they seek the approval of the Muslim rulers.
    Accepting bread from the Muslim rulers, they still worship the Puraanas. They eat the meat
    of the goats, killed after the Muslim prayers are read over them, but they do not allow anyone
    else to enter their kitchen areas. They draw lines around them, plastering the ground with
    cow-dung. The false come and sit within them. They cry out, "Do not touch our food, or it
    will be polluted!" But with their polluted bodies, they commit evil deeds. With filthy minds,
    they try to cleanse their mouths. Says Nanak, meditate on the True Lord. If you are pure,
    you will obtain the True Lord."

    “The man-eaters recites Adi Granth. Those who wield the kripan speak sweet words of Gurus.
    In their homes, the Sikhs worship Guru Granth They too have the same taste. False is their
    capital, and false is their trade. Speaking falsehood, they take their food. The home of
    modesty and Dharma is far from them. O Nanak, they are totally permeated with falsehood.
    The turban on their head, and the kaccha on their waist; in their hands they hold the kripan
    - they are the butchers of the world! Wearing blue robes, they align with muslims.
    Accepting arms from muslim rulers they kill Sanatani Hindus and they still worship the Guru Granth.
    They eat tandoori chicken and even beef to prove that they are not Sanatani Hindus.
    They draw lines around them, you are amritdhari, you are jat, you are non-amritdhari,
    you are nihang and so on. The false come and sit within them. They cry out,
    "Don't call me Hindus, or I will be polluted!" But with their polluted bodies, they commit
    evil deeds. With filthy minds, they try to cleanse their mouths. Says Nanak, meditate on
    the True Lord. If you are pure, you will obtain the True Lord.“

    "Make compassion the cotton, contentment the thread, modesty the knot and truth the twist.
    This is the sacred thread of the soul; if you have it, then go ahead and put it on me. It does
    not break, it cannot be soiled by filth, it cannot be burnt, or lost. Blessed are those mortal beings,
    O Nanak, who wear such a thread around their necks. You buy the thread for a few shells,
    and seated in your enclosure, you put it on. Whispering instructions into others' ears, the Brahmin
    becomes a guru. But he dies, and the sacred thread falls away, and the soul departs without it.”

    “Make compassion the hair, contentment the turban, modesty the kaccha and truth the kada.
    These are the 5Ks of the soul; if you have it, then go ahead and put it on me. It does not break,
    it cannot be soiled by filth, it cannot be burnt, or lost. Blessed are those mortal beings,
    O Nanak, who wear such a hair, turban, kaccha and kada. You buy the turban for a few shells,
    and seated in your enclosure, you put it on. Offering amrit to others you declare them khalsa.
    But he dies, and he 5Ks fall away, and the soul departs without it.“


    HTML:
     
    open your eyes and it is anti Halal.But oh Yuo are
    are Hindu,who does not has eye.
    
    Jhatka or Halaal doesn't matter. What you kill is just the clay
    The light of the soul passes to another form...

    Thanks.
     
  18. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Gurfateh

    Das wanted you to aske some strrang thing here.
    theory of self contradiction.

    soem time you say you are non belvr but some time you say you have Faith in Akal/Allah Prahbrham.

    Yuo want us to be tolrant and libral but you yourself lack the traits.

    then yuo opposed intolransnce of veggis first then you started to prove that we ned to be veggi.

    have you understood the menaing of dulity ,whic you youreself are preaching to us for being veggi.
    Dultiy is to diffreantiate betwen blood and fleshh,meat and plant,Brahmin and Sudra ,Sikh and non Sikh.
    anyone whith such traits can never be a Sikh.so your trying to misinterpret Bani goes wrong as such interpetaions can be in your so called Hindu books but not our tetx.


    Das did not want to say that for fore soem Hindu temples them selfve we have valid sanctions for fleshh,liquer and sex,while we are not allowed to do that.yuo genralised Granthis ans Sikhs,but should we say Hindus are officaly like that?

    We do not worship any book but Akal only but we follow book and doest not insult like hindus do.

    Sanatani hindu another conbtradiction.

    how can a race or nation be eteranal.Was your race or nation there even before God.Very nice thing.

    any way if das tranlate it means eternaly(Sanatani) hindu(blind).
    then coming to beef,was your Indra,Krishna ,Lav Kush all did eat beef to prove that they were not Hindu?

    Do hindus in Arunachal and Bali and south India do not eat beef?Elder borther of das is Hindu yet eats beef.So what problem you have.

    Yuo say that we eat man but what about Bhema dringking blood of Duhshasan?is not that actuly a part of same book from very Holy Gita is taken?
    In fact very own Hindus kill more Hindus in caste based riots,They burn the people alvie and after putting type in thier neck,But only in instance when say 100 hindus are there to fight say 10 other hindus.

    Learn something how does people come in one or two and do things in Akshardham or say Ayodhya.Did any hindu did similar thing in Pakistan?

    Rather Hindus there help govt. to nab Indian spies and Muslims rather help us there.

    So when mud is poluutind soul and soil too so Hindu is pullution for Sanatan Dharmi.Nihungs actuly call RSS hindu version of AKJ,which you hate lot.


    "Make compassion the cotton, contentment the thread, modesty the knot and truth the twist.
    This is the sacred thread of the soul; if you have it, then go ahead and put it on me. It does
    not break, it cannot be soiled by filth, it cannot be burnt, or lost. Blessed are those mortal beings,
    O Nanak, who wear such a thread around their necks. You buy the thread for a few shells,
    and seated in your enclosure, you put it on. Whispering instructions into others' ears, the Brahmin
    becomes a guru. But he dies, and the sacred thread falls away, and the soul departs without it.”


    5ks are mark of some acheivement and Janeu and Circunsentaion are safegurads ro poullution.



    Akal is more not bothered to any deeds you say we do.But such things may matter for your demigods.Our acts are not our but of out God Akal.thats what means by Verse Krinarpan Mastu of Holy Gita.


    Read holy Gita again and understand the concept of Virat Rupa.

    There is only one soul in all and that is God.that is cncept of Adawit or non dulity.So far you still considered us sparate from you but for us you and us are just the one.Thing here is that you want to teach us while you are still learning.

    Halal does matters as does vegitarian isim matters.As per old Testment,Life was to ber reomved but as symbol of life they drin the bllod out.but Same Akal is in blood and same is in flesh.Same Akal is in Laddus of Katpadi or Tirupati and same Akal in beef.Same is in tobbaco an same in poision.
     
  19. Lion King

    Lion King
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    Bulleshah,
    You amaze me. For one thing, I appreciate you for seeing things beyond the
    boundaries of organized religions, but for another, you are unawarely bound by
    Hinduism's tendency of claiming everything born on its soil as its own - thus
    thinking that you're secularizing your land/faith -but doing outright communalism
    through swallowing and claiming something else as your own. Just like how the
    Muslims find it hard to see outside the box of a logical and non-contradicting God,
    Hindus find it hard to 'accept' a new-born neighbour as someone separate and
    different, and rightful to hold their own name & title as distinct, yet united, but
    different. (The very fact that Article 25 of the Indian Constitution claims Jain as
    Hindu, Budh as Hindu and Sikh as Hindu, goes to show Hinduism's sense of
    insecurity with regard to neighbouring native faiths. If India was a united nation,
    then what was the need to make such a point?) [And, even so, what harm is there if a
    new nation was added to the list of the world?]
    I think it's Hinduism's way of proclaiming universality - by completely embracing
    (claiming!) a neighbouring religion as their own, rather than embracing the
    neighbour for who they are, that causes alot of communal problems with
    neighbouring native faiths. Hindus should accept the fact that other religions were
    born simply because they do not agree with Hinduism's points of view, what use is
    going and claiming those faiths as Hinduism then? There are different ways to
    approach a mountain peak: those different ways are Sikhism, Buddhism, Jainism,
    etc. But it should not be mistaken that the very 'act of ascending' to the peak is called
    'Hinduism', then this would only show Hinduism's selfishness in claiming the whole
    process of relating to Divinity as Hinduism and nothing else. And if Hinduism still
    claims that it is the dharma which climbs to the peak from all sides at the same time,
    then this is the very reason why other native religions were born cause they want to
    choose a particular path to climb only.
    Hinduism says it's not an -ism, but a dharma (a way of life), and that other native
    religions should also see beyond their '-ism' and realise that they are Hindu dharma.
    But this is what other religions are saying too, that they are also dharma ( a way of
    life) and that Hinduism should accept that there are other ways of life to the same
    goal. How different? By being more systematic & focussed. Sikhism is a dharma
    (Sikh way of life). Buddhism is a dharma (buddhist way of life) and Jainism is a
    dharma (Jain way of life).
    Now you claim that whatever these native religions teach are already Hinduism and
    no different, I beg to differ. First of all, one can hardly define Hinduism. There is no
    set system, and though this seems like a plus point in your eyes, to other native faiths
    it's Hinduism's biggest blunder. The very reason for other faiths to take birth is to be
    focussed and systematic, institutionalised and precise. You say Sikhism has nothing
    new to teach, I may agree with you because my Guru himself said that they never
    proclaimed anything new. But Sikhism is a religion of Naam Marg (meditating on
    the Name) and it stresses on that on every page of the Guru Granth Sahib. This is
    what differetiates Sikhism from Hinduism. Now Hinduism might say we have that
    doctrine, too, but what is the use of claiming a doctrine when no importance is given
    to that point? Sikhism is a religion of Naam, now it would sound weird if I said
    Hinduism is a religion of Naam, 'cause it's not. Hinduism cannot be a religion of
    Naam cause it does not stress on that point - a point so important to Sikhism that its
    whole point of existence hangs on that balance. Hinduism might teach us to meditate
    and become yogic, discipline the mind and the senses and clear all the accounts of
    karma and reincarnations and attain moksha and merge with God, but Sikhism gives
    all and ultimate importance to meditating on God and His Name with every breath of
    life, considering it even much more important than attaining yogic disciplines or
    salvations or clearing karmic accounts and lifetimes - even to the extent of claiming
    all good deeds done no matter to what extent as useless - if done without the Name
    of God in mind & intention. Sikhism even gives it more importance than the very act
    of meditation or silencing the mind and attaining peace. To Sikhism, Naam is
    Everything. Take the word 'Naam' out of Guru Granth Sahib and it will lose its
    claim of being Sikhi. Naam is the breath of Sikhism. But do the same to Hinduism
    and its texts, Hinduism will still survive, coz, Naam has never been its main
    concerns. (If you can provide me Hindu quotes with regard to Naam, would be much
    appreciated).
    I noticed that Hindus in general, like to blame Sikhs for causing factions by being
    distinctive in indentity, rather than becoming one with the rest. I wonder why do
    Hindus fail to see that it's this very identity of the Sikhs that has fostered them to be
    united with the rest of mankind. Sikhs, in their identity, find harmony with the rest of
    creation, by projecting the universal appearance of man in the personality of their
    prophet. We all know the greatness of Guru Gobind Singh Ji and His sacrifices for
    the Indian soil and honour. But why do we fail to see the picture that it was his iron
    -will and courage to be different from the mainstream rulers & people that fostered
    his ability to bring justice & unity to those deprived of and are in such need? What
    harm is there in invoking the personality of such a man whose ideals promoted
    patriotism not only on the national level, but humanitarian level (beyond national
    borders)? When I do not doubt such a man's conduct, doubting his orders/ideals is
    quite a far-fetched thing - especially when I am his unquestioning disciple: his Sikh.
    This is the difference between Sikhism and Hinduism. He is not a Sikh who thinks he
    knows better than the Guru (Sikh Gurus). He is not a Sikh, who disobeys the Guru.
    He is not a Sikh who claims Sikhism as Hinduism when Guru Ji has made it clear
    that he does not agree with the Vedas or the Koran by introducing Guru Granth
    Sahib as separate and distinct. Does this mean Sikhs are wanting to cause rifts and
    problems?? No! It's their ideology, not hatred. It's high time Hindus stop worrying.
    Is 300 years of history not enough to prove Sikhs' quest for unity & freedom for all?
    "Why insult Sikhs with the issue of Khalistan, when for 300 years they have been
    fighting for a united India?" (Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale's quote). But then,
    now Sikhs are forced to have such a dream. Its foundation has been laid.
    Why do Hindus fail to realize that if the religion of Sikhism is encouraged, it's for
    the good of the nation? After all, the Sikhs do not have the tendency to go around
    swallowing other faiths. The British realised this and used the Sikh distinction to
    their full advantage. But the moment they interfered in religious affairs (Gurwara
    key affair), then they began to face the wrath of the Sikhs. Is it possible that Hindus
    are jealous of Sikhs? Hinduism has been interfering from the beginning, it will
    continue to face the imminent wrath of the Sikhs in future, cause Hindus are
    undoubtedly very large, so it will take time. You say Sikhs think themselves superior
    to Hindus, though this pride is not appreciated, but I think they do deserve some
    pride, for all that they have done for the nation - especially when the nation had
    promised to give the Sikh community a befitting reward after independence! (Pandit
    Nehru!). Had Hinduism not interfered in calling Sikhs Hindus, their pride for
    separation would have been lesser, since they would not have felt threatened, but
    their separatedness in ideology is still the same, though not actually disunited. (Ask
    thse people who have Sikhs as thier friends and they will tell you what great friends
    Sikhs make). Hindus scorn on Sikh distinction as cause of disharmony while
    showing a blind eye to their 300 years of struggle and 50 years of secular imperial
    rule in the most disturbed and diverse regions from the Northwestern Frontiers to
    Delhi.
    You find the 5 Ks ritualistic, I completely agree with you if you find it meaningless
    and insignificant. That's why there is no direct quote in Guru Granth Sahib ji asking
    you to keep hair and the four other Ks - coz to state so would be ritualistic without
    proper meaning or reason behind it. You forget that the Guru's aim is to make us
    exactly like himself - to say the least. His aim was not to create more followers, but
    more leaders. When we become like our Guru - we 'become' like our Guru: in every
    way from skin to soul. You deliberately overlook the aim of Sikhism in making a
    Hindu, Rama-like/Vishnu-like; a Muslim, Mohammed-like; a Christian, Christ-like;
    a Buddhist, Buddha-like & a Sikh, Guru-like.
    When Chrisitanity and Islam are both believing in the same God as Judaism and Judaism has no problem in seeing them as separate, why the hell is Hinduism still stuck to its own illusion? Why do you want to force yourself into a school of which you are not a part of? I feel that you are undergoing a lot of psychological tension in wanting to be 'Sikh' under your own definition, that's why these complexities are causing you psychological tensions and depression. Maybe you should just accept the fact that 'I am not actually Sikh but I'm trying to be a good person who agrees with Sikh ideology though not 100%'
    Just a thought,
    (Bhul chook maaf)
    Lion King
     
  20. Deepinderpaljitpreet

    Deepinderpaljitpreet
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    hello dear

    knowing about sikh and punjabis is hard!
    If you where the krukshetra is you would easily get where the kaurav and panduv belongs to. If the field is in haryana and hestenpur in Delhi then the Panduv must gather their force in punjab&sind area not in Arunachal Pradesh where you hardly found no. 5 being practice and it is there from the time of Mahabharata till Khalsa. the srover is the one where Panduvs are not allowed to drink water and about sikh iits nothing but a reliogion practice on nature. stay natural live with todays fashion but being strict with the religion is wrong. the first guru never fight with anyone and the last guru resemles like a great warrior so it the matter of the time. many god com and goes but people still have to live with the nature. the first guru went to mecca for huj but now a days its impossible to go for huj for a hisdu or sikh so its a matter of time and all this is only because of being strict(baptist) in brown skin.
    reaplly me back if you feel like!
     
  21. Lion King

    Lion King
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    Bulleshah,
    You also claim that Sikhism is prt of the Bhakti Movement, but you see, that's the illusion. You fail to see the systematic and stern approach of Sikhism compared to the unorganised methods of the Bhakti saints. So what if it were all a coincidence? A nation has to wake up one day. You see, that's why Kabir ji is not a Guru in Sikhism, cause he was a passive spiritualist ( the very same reasons why Guru Nanak Dev Ji's eldest son was not made the successor, cause he chose the path of a recluse.) That's why only Kabir's ideology which coincided with Sikh principles were taken, and not him as the Guru, but his "Word" - the Shabd.
    This is a difference between Hinduism and Sikhism, Hinduism may also have all the wisdom, but it still embraces renunciation, but Sikhism simply cannot embrace renunciation (& other Hinduistic practices), else the purity of its message would be as corrupted and contaminated as the plight of Hinduism today.
    [The point that you brought up about Sikhs bowing to the jutti or jug of the Guru, simply goes to show how much of a Hinduistic influence has come into Sikhism, despite the stern step of identity & distinction taken by the Guru to maintain the purity (the Khalsa) of their message. Does this mean Sikhs hate Hindus? No! relax..]
    Just a thought,
    (no offence intended)
    Lion King
     

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