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Islam The Quran: The way all praise God

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by namjiwankaur, Oct 3, 2012.

  1. namjiwankaur

    namjiwankaur
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    _/|\_ Sat Nam

    There are several profound verses in Quran that I think are worth reflecting on. I know there are a couple Muslims participating on this board so I hope they will take the time to read and respond. But I hope Sikhs will share their experiences and understanding as they read these verses. How does it speak to you?

    The seven heavens and the earth and whatever is in them exalt Him. And there is not a thing except that it exalts [ Allah ] by His praise, but you do not understand their [way of] exalting. Indeed, He is ever Forbearing and Forgiving. (Quran 17:44)

    Seest thou not that it is Allah Whose praises all beings in the heavens and on earth do celebrate, and the birds (of the air) with wings outspread? Each one knows its own (mode of) prayer and praise. And Allah knows well all that they do. (Quran 24:41)


    Whatever is in the heavens and on earth,- let it declare the Praises and Glory of Allah: for He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise. (Quran 57:1)


    Many say a convert to Islam actually reverts to Islam because all of us are born Muslim.

    BUT I think these verses prove otherwise. It is about the verb islam not the noun Islam. And it is about the verb muslim not the noun islam. The word "islam" means surrender or submission to the Divine. According to the verses above, this would mean all creation practices islam, knowingly or unknowingly.

    In the same way, a muslim is anyone who submits to the will of God. Some say all the Prophets were Muslim (noun), but I believe they were muslim (verb).

    Do the verses I've provided here fit this understanding I have about Islam/Muslim and islam/muslim?

    Shalom peacesignkaur
     
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  3. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Namjiwankaur ji I find nothing wrong in what you have excerpted above. It appears in line with part of what Sikhism teaches us. We always need to be in cognizance that whole of Islam/Koran teaches radically different aspects versus Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. So there are of course commonalities but the differences in holistic view cannot be lost in all this.
    As part of practicing Islam, without taking any sides, I find something amiss when two sides with Islamic faith result in the following,

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    I wish peace, love and well being of all and I get disgusted when incidents like above continuously and persistently happen among mostly Islam linked societies. I am talking present days as that is where we need to encourage love and compassion to build better for all. There is no question that history has shown us each of the major religions having their hay days of killing too so this is not to single out Islam per se.

    Your posts I find refreshing and informative and I thank you for that.

    Regards.
     
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    #2 Ambarsaria, Oct 3, 2012
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  4. namjiwankaur

    namjiwankaur
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    _/|\_ Sat Nam

    One reason I speak of Islam from a place of compassion is to confront this violence.

    I heard yesterday a suicide bomber killed (at least) 14 people and injured 61 others. These are some of the verses I thought of when I heard this news.

    That was why We laid it down for the Children of Israel that whoever killed a human beingexcept as a punishment for murder or for spreading corruption in the land shall be regarded as having killed all mankind, and that whoever saved a human life shall be regarded as having saved all mankind. Our messengers came to them with clear signs, but many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (Quran 5:32)

    Believers, do not wrongfully consume each others wealth, but trade with it by mutual consent. Do not kill one another, for God is most merciful to you. (Quran 4:29)

    (4:29 is also often translated as "do not kill yourselves").

    As for suicide bombers, there are these hadith:

    The Prophet said, "He who commits suicide by throttling shall keep on throttling himself in the Hell Fire (forever) and he who commits suicide by stabbing himself shall keep on stabbing himself in the Hell-Fire." (Sahih Bukhari)

    The Prophet said, "Whoever purposely throws himself from a mountain and kills himself, will be in the (Hell) Fire falling down into it and abiding therein perpetually forever; and whoever drinks poison and kills himself with it, he will be carrying his poison in his hand and drinking it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever; and whoever kills himself with an iron weapon, will be carrying that weapon in his hand and stabbing his abdomen with it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever." (Sahih Bukhari)

    I think hell is basically about the karma that comes back at us for bad deeds (like killing innocent people). According to those who have had near death experiences, there are people who say shortly after they enter this spiritual realm, there is a life review. Not only do they experience what they did (good and bad) to themselves. They feel what they did (good and bad to others).

    So causing injury and murder will no doubt bring very painful (emotionally & physical) consequences.

    I have realized something and it causes me to make posts like these. I was Christian until I was about 40 years old. I studied the Bible, but many (maybe most) Christians don't read the Bible. I suspect the same is true for Muslims. Many probably don't read Quran and some are illiterate so they depend on others they consider "authorities" for their "knowledge" of Islam.

    This is why I see pictures like those you posted and I react the way I do...by showing the Islam of Mercy. Naben ji said mercy is conditional. Maybe so, but in Quran it is clearly stated that Muhammad came to all creation/all worlds with a message of mercy. Therefore Islam is meant to be a message of mercy.

    Here are various translations of that verse:

    It is Surah 21, ayat 107.

    ::We sent thee not, but as a Mercy for all creatures (Yusuf Ali translation)

    ::And [thus, O Prophet,] We have sent thee as [an evidence of Our] grace towards all the worlds. (Muhammad Asad translation)

    ::We have merely sent you as a mercy for [everybody in] the Universe. (TB Irving translation)

    ::And We did not send you (O Prophet), except as mercy to all worlds (and the creatures). (Syed Vickar Ahamad translation)

    So when I see pictures like the ones you posted here, I can't help but ask how Muslims can justify their violence.

    The Prophet says 73 sects will exist and only one will go to Paradise. It will be a People of Mercy. There aren't 73 sects. There is only a People of Mercy.

    And every thought, word and deed of a Muslim should be a reflection of Mercy. True submission (islam/muslim) is to let go of our own ego-needs that push us to disagree, fight and insist we are right. Those ego-needs are not reflections of Mercy.

    Nam Jiwan:redturban:
     
  5. Rory

    Rory
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    Very interesting. I've written down some of the verses and hadith mentioned, I'm sure they will be of use in future discussion. Could you mention more about the 73 sects?
     
  6. harmanpreet singh

    harmanpreet singh India
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    Hello ,Nam jiwan ji

    hw can one justify beating of Wife as stated in Quran

    Transliteration 34: Alrrijalu qawwamoona AAala alnnisai bima faddala Allahu baAAdahum AAala baAAdin wabima anfaqoo min amwalihim faalssalihatu qanitatun hafithatun lilghaybi bima hafitha Allahu waallatee takhafoona nushoozahunna faAAithoohunna waohjuroohunna fee almadajiAAi waidriboohunna fain ataAAnakum fala tabghoo AAalayhinna sabeelan inna Allaha kana AAaliyyan kabeeran


    Yusuf Ali 34
    : Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

    Shakir 34:
    Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

    Pickthal 34:
    Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

    Mohsin Khan: 34: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property). As to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last)
    beat them (lightly, if it is useful); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great.

    Sahih International
    Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand






     
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    #5 harmanpreet singh, Oct 4, 2012
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  7. namjiwankaur

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    Sat Nam _/|\_

    The word, DaRaBa, that many translated as beat actually has many other meanings.

    Here is a list of its use in Quran with the verses:
    To travel, to get out: 3:156; 4:101; 38:44; 73:20; 2:273
    To strike: 2:60,73; 7:160; 8:12; 20:77; 24:31; 26:63; 37:93; 47:4
    To beat: 8:50; 47:27
    To set up: 43:58; 57:13
    To give (examples): 14:24,45; 16:75,76,112; 18:32,45; 24:35; 30:28,58; 36:78; 39:27,29; 43:17; 59:21; 66:10,11
    To take away, to ignore: 43:5
    To condemn: 2:61
    To seal, to draw over: 18:11
    To cover: 24:31
    To explain: 13:17

    The dictionary gives these as some of the meanings of the word, beat, showing an example of this in English:
    1.
    to strike violently or forcefully and repeatedly.
    2.
    to dash against: rain beating the trees.
    3.
    to flutter, flap, or rotate in or against: beating the air with its wings.
    4.
    to sound, as on a drum: beating a steady rhythm; to beat a tattoo.
    5.
    to stir vigorously: Beat the egg whites well.

    I believe no one challenged the men who translated the word as "beat/hit" because women have been expected to be submissive to men for thousands of years. Only in the last half of the 20th century that finally changed in some parts of the world. Patriarchy has done horrible things to women.

    Please take the time to listen to Laleh Bakhtiar because she does a great job explaining all this:
    Part 1: Domestic Violence in Islam Part 2a Sublime Quran translated by Laleh Bakhtiar
    Part 2: Domestic Violence in Islam Part 2b Sublime Quran translated by Laleh Bakhtiar.
    Part 3: Domestic Violence in Islam Part 2c Sublime Quran translated by Laleh Bakhtiar - YouTube

    One of the reasons I love Sikhi is women do all the things men do in the gurdwara. Actually, I'll start a new thread on some thoughts I have on this.

    Nam Jiwanmundahug
     
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    #6 namjiwankaur, Oct 4, 2012
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  8. harmanpreet singh

    harmanpreet singh India
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    Thanks Namjivan ji ,

    any authentic translation which you want to recommend ? 0:)
     
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  9. namjiwankaur

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    Sat Nam _/|\_

    Harmanpreet ji

    IMHO, its impossible to translate something like Quran (or even Bible, etc.). Partly because of the complexities of the Semitic languages and partly because it will always include the translator's bias. So, in the end, all someone can do is interpret it into another language.

    Two translations I like are:
    The Reformist Quran
    http://www.studyquran.org/resources/Quran_Reformist_Translation.pdf

    &

    Shabbir Ahmed's The Quran Explains Itself:
    http://ourbeacon.com/wp-content/uploads/admin2/2010/11/QXP200808iv.pdf

    Nam Jiwan
    0:)

     
  10. namjiwankaur

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    Sat Nam _/|\_

    Rory ji

    Muhammad said that there will be 73 sects of Islam and only one will get Muslims to paradise. I think it means much more than meets the eye. For instance, even if there are 73 sects, only the righteous will make it to paradise/nirvana. And perhaps, like I said, it could mean only the people of Mercy (who practice the religion as intended by God ... as the message of Mercy God intended it to be). And then its possible that Muhammad is saying that there is truly only one Islam. There are no sects; only people dividing themselves according to differences (and Islam is strong enough to stand diversity, but everyone goes around saying "my opinions are the real Islam/yours aren't). That is ego, not faith and surrender to the Divine.

    In the end, only Allah knows. Even Muhammad may not have been completely aware of what he was saying (since he was only a man, not someone who could read the future).

    Nam Jiwan :blueturban:

     
  11. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    namjiwankaur ji thanks for your posts on Islam. I see that you are glossing over much in comparative commentary as though things stated are good in what you quote. I am just flagging not to point and motive or intent and just for dialog and learning.
    There is no "Hell Fire" in Sikhism. It does not threaten or pass such judgements as though some one read from the book of God/creator and pretending to know and then subjugates. Sikhism teaches and encourages you to seek, learn and decide.
    Absolutely ludicrous statements from a Sikhism perspective.

    No such concept of Karma in Sikhism. You are accountable for what you do. Some consequences are immediate, others pending and some will not happen as one does not live for ever. This is all in consonance with the creation all around us.
    I read such statements as simply threats of retribution.
    It is very simple namjiwankaur ji at least the way I understand. When a religion guides with rules and regulations one loses the ability to think and reason. One become a parrot or simply a reactive individual. Inspite of what you so intelligently and eloquently describe perhaps that represents less than 0.001% of the leadership and religious guides out there. We can easily see where it leads to! The pictures I posted. Those acts are perpetrated by people doing lip service to the essence of the religion and perhaps are even classified as holy by their religious leaders who are there for good times.

    Suicide Bomber Auction for Syria in Saudi Arabia - YouTube

    It all is disgusting manipulation and hatred/fear driven strategy. Sorry to be so direct. It just cannot be sugar coated.

    See the following how the handlers are having a good life as they encourage and brain wash in the name of Islam a young boy to go to Hoor-Land/"concubines in heaven".
    shaheed hayatullah mehsud in afghanistan - YouTube
    It is ironic that the adults don't want to be the first one to get there! It is disgusting manipulation in the name of religion.

    Regards.
     
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  12. namjiwankaur

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    Sat Nam _/|\_

    I'd rather discuss the purpose of that post. I was responding to what came to me when I saw the horrible images you posted and what came to mind when I heard of the suicide bomber.

    Basically, the ayat (Quran verses) & hadith were dhilal (proof) that would be used to show that suicide bombing is a grave sin in Islam.

    I personally don't believe Muhammad pbuh meant someone in hell would literally stab himself or whatever. Maybe someone like Naben would (meaning he has a more literal understanding of Quran vs. contemplative), but I believe Muhammad is really saying that it is a horrible mistake to kill oneself. I suspect there are consequences (negative karma will effect the life review and next life) when someone snubs out their life as if it is worthless. I believe God also forgives rather than punishes. The correction is not meant to punish the person, but to elevate the person spiritually. My sheikh teaches that "hell-fire" is the "Light" purifying and removing the "darkness" in the soul.

    I know I have a unique perspective on the afterlife (and it is only perspective because we have no idea what will happen ten minutes from now, let alone after we die). I believe negative karma and the Abrahamic concept of "punishment for sin" are the same thing viewed from different perspectives. Sikhs say tomahto/Muslims say tomayto. So I'm sharing my perspective. Whether Muslim, Hindu, Christian or Sikh, there will always be different opinions and perspectives even amongst those who practice the same religion. Once we believe our own opinion is the only correct one, we become rigid and that is when things go wrong. Frankly, I see this happening in the Sikh community also. It surprises me, but it is there.

    For several reasons I choose not to watch those videos at this time (ie-it aggravates my PTSD). I watched the beginning of the first one and I want to note that the men are probably shouting "takbir" (the word for the saying "Allahu Akbar") not takfir (the word for "infidels"). That being said, every cell of my body shutters with stress when I hear Muslims shouting "Allahu Akbar" before they kill someone. Muhammad never ever celebrated killing that way. It is pure innovation.

    A Sufi and a salafi have entirely different understandings about Islam. I hope you realize that. Naben has already said he considers Sufis as kufr (unbelievers). Why am I not surprised? :grinningkaur:

    Nam Jiwan :singhsippingcoffee:

    Here's a song by Dawud Wharnsby called Takbir:
    Dawud Wharnsby Takbir
     
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    #11 namjiwankaur, Oct 5, 2012
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  13. sandeep17oct

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    I think that these things like out of so many, these many will find God rest will not are blatant lies. If you look up the text ie Koran you probably will not find anythind testifying to that. I say that with the fact that anyone who gives his head to God will find God as my premise.So he might be a Shia a Sunni or whatever have you.
     
  14. sandeep17oct

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    And secondly by posting videos and pictures of one or two or a billion bad guys of a particular faith you do not have a single point against the faith because those people dont listen to the holy books but do their own.
    So if God tells you to be humble and you choose not to then is it God's fault. I rest my case.
     
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  15. Ambarsaria

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    sandeep17oct thanks for your post. I have a comment.
    I am not here to make someone look bad so that I can claim a higher ground. The issue is that in decades of interactions with all varieties of people from different faiths, I have yet to hear someone in power or position of influence in this faith come out against such incidents and activities. As a matter of fact their is much venomous talk versus the other type in the sermons, in the fatwas, in the edicts and writings. Also it is my perception, I may be wrong, it appears many in their heart of hearts seem to enjoy, condone or seem to think that it will strengthen the religion. In all these activities you have handlers who come from established identities with being good followers. That is the fundamental issue.

    How many muslim clerics, clergy, leaders came out or even spoke against the beheading of a Sikh in Afghanistan? When all non-muslims are quafirs. Unless you are person of the book, there is zero humanity towards treating you because you are considered lowest of the low if not an animal equivalent.
    What makes you think if any one is special in God/creator's eyes, if he is so defined. Sikhism teaches us all is the same God/creator's vision.

    If you had a chance read writings of Anwar al-Awlaki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Aulaqi) , much followed by the aspiring mujahadeens and others of similar persuasion. It is incredibly revealing depending upon what you are looking for and remember he was at a pedestal in the minds of millions.

    Regards.
     
    #14 Ambarsaria, Oct 5, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2012
  16. sandeep17oct

    sandeep17oct
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    Ambarsaria ji
    Being humble is opposite to being egotistical. Haumay is the biggest rog. So it is definitely not needed in a God's servant. It is only one quality and there are many others. i just gave it as an example to mean that if a holy book says you to do something and you do not follow it then the fault is yours...
     
  17. sandeep17oct

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    Everyone is same but God brings one close and distances Himself from another.So probably i was wrong there. It is when God imbibes these qualities in a person then he gives up his ego...
     
  18. sandeep17oct

    sandeep17oct
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    Ambarsaria ji
    God loves all equally but we by forgetting him by lying cheating stealing killing are distanced from Him...our hearts are hardened in the process...and when we do Jaap then our hearts blossom forth whence we can feel the love of God....i hope this is clear....
     
  19. namjiwankaur

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    _/|\_ Sat Nam

    Sandeep ji

    Your words radiate with Divine Light. I like your style! How long have you been practicing Sikhi?

    Blessed be!
    Nam Jiwan :)
     
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  20. namjiwankaur

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    Sat Nam _/|\_

    Ambarsaria ji

    Who do you consider the ones with positions of power and influence? Do you realize that the citizens of many Muslim-majority countries were protesting and trying to bring down their country's corrupt governments? Right now, in Syria people are literally dying for freedom from a corrupt leader.

    You recently put down Bawa Muhaiyaddeen. You looked for whatever you could to make him fit into your point of view. Perhaps the point of view needs to change because you assumed Bawa was what you want to assume about all Muslims. Yes Sufis considered him a sheikh, but Hindus consider him a guru and Christians a saint. He says there is only one religion...he says all religions are one. He taught non-violence and called his followers his "precious jewelled lights of his eyes". Not just the Muslim ones, mind you. He didn't care what religion someone practiced. He only cared about helping people of all religions and no religions find God. As a follower of Bawa ji, I was deeply hurt when you twisted his words to make them look intolerant...he was the epitome of tolerance.

    You are stuck in a certain mindset. That is your right, but you also sow seeds of intolerance in the world because of it.

    Nam Jiwan
     
  21. namjiwankaur

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    Sat Nam _/|\_

    Ambarsaria ji

    Oh, my! Are you seriously saying that an extremist from Al-Qaeda is who you perceive as a leader amongst mainstream Muslims? No, no, no. Not at all. Most Muslims would be very offended by a statement which implies that he is revered by the ummah (Muslim community). Are you really saying that Muslims all follow terrorists like this guy? Ahhhh...now I get it. But you are so so mistaken.

    May peace prevail. Ya Salaam!

    Anyway, I gotta go.

    Love and Light,
    Nam Jiwan
     

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