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The purpose of our life

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by consciousness, Sep 13, 2010.

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  1. consciousness

    consciousness
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    Is there a purpose to our life here on this Earth ? Or are we just part of Darwin's evolution ?

    Should we just enjoy life while we are here on this earth ? Or should we try to achieve a higher state of consciousness ?

    If we achieved a higher state of consciousness, would that not be just another prized possesion of our Ego ?

    CAN we attain a higher state of consciousness by choice ?

    CAN we attain a higher state of consciousness without "God's" blessing ?

    Is every hour and every minute of our life not orchestrated by "God" ?

    Is our life pre-programmed and we are destined to do what "God" has planned for us ? Do the scriptures not say that even the bad things we do are because we have not been "Blessed" by "God" ?

    Are we just a vibration that coalesced into a human body, based on our past Karma ?

    Are we condemmend to this cycle of Birth and Death, for a crime we did not commit ? Is years and years of Meditation; the only way out ?

    It does not seem fair to me.

    Any input or opinions would be appreciated.
     
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  3. Amarpal

    Amarpal
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    Dear Khalsa Ji,

    I respond to you post point- wise

    (i) Is there a purpose to our life here on this Earth ? Or are we just part of Darwin's evolution ?

    The Answer is Yes; There are three components of every human (a) to pay for the pasr Karmas; (b) to evolve in all positive aspects of live and achieve greater spiritual heights; and (c) to act as intrument of 'The Sat' in propagating, preserving and help evolution in the creation of 'The Sat'. The weighing factors for these three componets vary for each person depending on its past Karmas.

    Once the basic premise for the creation including the being was created by 'The Sat' (I am not elaborating on it here) the natural evolutionay processes take over as discribed by Darwin and others. It is driven by the free will of the beings.

    (ii) Should we just enjoy life while we are here on this earth ? Or should we try to achieve a higher state of consciousness ?

    The answer is do both; Basic purpose of life is to evolve spiritually; higher consciousness is the out come of this evolution.

    Living on earth if in the natural process within the domain of ethics and morality if some pleasure comes your way one must enjoy it, but never develop craving for it nor be driven by it in one's life. If tasty food is served eat and relish it to the full, but do not keep memory of it or keep alking of looking for it again and again. Pleasures should not guide or drive you journy on this earth.

    (iii) CAN we attain a higher state of consciousness by choice ?

    The answer is yes . 'The Sat' has given us free will to do what ever we want to do with our lives. Only when one makes sincere decision i.e. makes a choice to evolve in that direction and puts in effort to achieve one can evolve and higer consciousness is an out come of that effort - it is not an independent parameter, it is an out come of a process.

    (iv) CAN we attain a higher state of consciousness without "God's" blessing ?

    The answer is No; nothing can happen without the blessings of 'The Sat'. Even the idea to evolve in that direction comes from 'The voice of 'The Sat' within the person, if and only if the person has not accumulated too much worldly dirt in its functioning brain.

    (v) Is our life pre-programmed and we are destined to do what "God" has planned for us ?

    The answer is; only our mission is preprogramed and destiny provides you the opportunity to fulfill this mission, but the free will can interfear with the journey and take the person away from the pre-programed mission.


    (vi) Do the scriptures not say that even the bad things we do are because we have not been "Blessed" by "God" ?

    It is the vices that take hold of the person under whose influence the bad deed are done by the individual. These vices use the itellect to persude the person to obey them and do things that are undesirable or are sins. When these accumulate in the memory of the brain, they constitute the worldly dirt, which does not allow the voice from in inner self to reach out. thus the blessing of 'The Sat' one denies one-self.

    (vii) Are we just a vibration that coalesced into a human body, based on our past Karma ?

    I do not use the word vibration.

    In origin, we are the materialised form of Cosmic Intellegent Energy( which is 'The Sat'). This materialised form has been shaped and reshaped by our karmas of our past by the process of rebirths.

    (viii) Are we condemmend to this cycle of Birth and Death, for a crime we did not commit ?

    The answer is; No one is condemmed. Guru Nanak who was a very evolve high sol came to this wotld on its own help the lost humanity to evolve. we to are not compelled, we come to this world as it is the place to evolve spiritually. Justise of 'The Sat' is absolute, no one is punished for the sin it has not commited. I fact, my understanding is that 'The Sat' never punishes any one, it is our own subconscious that atracks events which look to us as punishment.

    (ix) Is years and years of Meditation; the only way out ?

    The answer is 'Truthfull living in accordance with the teachings of Siri Guru Granth Sahib is the way out'.

    (x) It does not seem fair to me.

    The answer is - fair and unfair are dualities based on the yardsticks used in assessment of our worldly life. With spiritual evolution taking place within the person, the dualities dualities get dissolve progressivly. Only 'The Sat' and 'The Sat' only remains.

    With love and respect for all.

    Amarpal Singh
    Punjab, India
     
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  4. Archived_member14

    Archived_member14
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    Dear Consciousness,


    Since I’ve never had an occasion before to go into such kind of questions, I’d like to respond to some of these that you ask.
    ====
    Q: Is there a purpose to our life here on this Earth ? Or are we just part of Darwin's evolution ?

    A: Before talking in terms of ‘purpose’, I’d like to talk about why and how we are here.
    Beginning with birth, this is result of karma done in the past arisen just before the dying consciousness of the previous life. This same karma also conditions the death of this present life and in between, what is called the life-continuum. However this is not all there is, but there must also be the experience through the five senses all throughout life and these again are result of karma, but are ones from various seeds planted throughout our endless existence.

    The above are “results”, which given the natural order of things, are inevitably at each instance, followed by moments of volitional impulses, in other words, the ‘reactions’. This latter is what is said to be “cause” or “karma”, although most of them are of the strength resulting simply in accumulation of habit, others however, are strong enough to result in more of the sense experience and some, in further ‘rebirth’.

    Given this above, we can now talk about ‘purpose’. That our volitional actions are tainted with ignorance and attachment is the reason why the cycle of birth and death keeps spinning endlessly. Not only when they arise with bad deeds that this happens, but good deeds as well, since essentially they are also of the same stuff. Bad deeds give rise to bad results and good deeds to good, yet in the end they are all fleeting and insubstantial and hence not worth clinging to. The only activity which is the gradual breaking down of this prison cell which we otherwise keep adding bricks on to, is ‘wisdom / understanding’.

    So our purpose is the development of understanding of all our experiences, and this would include distinguishing that which is cause from that which is result and those that are neither. Failing this results in our confusing one for the other or else belief in the kind of cause and effect dictated by ignorance and particular ‘view’ which we happen to incline towards at the time. In other words, we need to gradually come to understand “who we *really* are” as against “who we want to be” which when analysed comes down to the misleading stories we keep telling ourselves driven by craving for ‘being’.
    ======
    Q: Should we just enjoy life while we are here on this earth ? Or should we try to achieve a higher state of consciousness ?

    A: Seeing the harm of craving, why would one aim at it? Seeing the value of developing wisdom, would one aim for anything else?
    ======
    Q: If we achieved a higher state of consciousness, would that not be just another prized possesion of our Ego ?

    A: Attachment is always there around the corner. There is nothing which attachment cannot take as object. However when wisdom does arise regardless this be relatively weak or is strong, it is accompanied by a corresponding level of ‘detachment’. This detachment is directly opposed to the otherwise prevailing attachment. So the more this wisdom is developed, the greater the ability to recognize instances of attachment including those towards any sense of achievement in this regard.
    ======
    Q: CAN we attain a higher state of consciousness by choice ?

    A: Choice is an illusion and the object of concern for those who fail to understand. The past is gone and the future hasn’t arrived, there is ever only the present moment. This moment is *conditioned already* beyond control, about this there is no doubt. Ignorance now conditions more ignorance in the future, likewise wisdom. Understanding this itself is an instance of the latter; on the other hand, a concern about future results with regard to such things is in fact an instance of the former leading to being caught in the vicious cycle even more.
    ======
    Q: Is our life pre-programmed ?

    A: Pre-program implies denying the role of present conditions, and this is quite wrong. No one can say what sound arises next to be heard and what visible object is seen. And no one can say what accumulated tendency will give rise to the reactions following upon such experiences through the five senses. The kind of dream we have at night is often induced by the food we took or any illness we have. Getting to hear the Truth can be a condition for understanding to arise (or not) and getting to hear an un-truth can cause us to be further deluded (or not), but when and how either of this happens clearly must depend on outside conditions as well.

    In other words, although it is true that we can’t get away from what we’ve accumulated including that ignorance and craving is infinitely more than any good, know that to think that it is all ‘predetermined’ is making it in fact even harder to be free of these tendencies. On the other hand, understanding the present moment, which is neither about determinism nor free-will, is an instance of actualizing that which is our purpose in life. ;-)
    =======
    Q: Are we just a vibration that coalesced into a human body, based on our past Karma ?

    A: The concept of ‘vibration’ is a result of conditioning primarily by science. We have a mental picture about that which we do not understand based on what we have learnt here and there, all of which are fields of study fuelled all the way, by ignorance and craving.

    Karma is volition, a *mental* reality arisen and fallen away in a trillionth of a second. Let alone being any close to the idea of ‘vibration’ which is only a concept based on the study of ‘material’ realities, this is a mental reality of which we are essentially in the dark about, and in fact is darker than dark. ;-) However we can begin by learning how our “misconception” comes to be, starting with, it is not that which is seen, heard, smelt, touched or tasted. So if we recognize our mental picture to be tainted by any of these experiences of material phenomena, know that we are in fact wrong.

    Along with this we would need to differentiate between Karma which is ‘cause’, from say, seeing and hearing which are ‘results’. And then, we also need to distinguish between volition from other kind of mental realities such as feeling, perception, concentration, thinking and so on.
    A very slow and gradual process, hindered often by the very ambition we are likely to have in this regard. And so we’d need to also be reminded about yet other mental realities, such as patience, courage, truthfulness and so on. ;-)
    =======
    Q: Are we condemmend to this cycle of Birth and Death, for a crime we did not commit ?

    A: We get exactly what we deserve. Each deed through body, speech or mind now will bear its fruit in the future, unless of course we develop the wisdom to cut through it all and attain final liberation. If we do not take responsibility for what happens to us now, then what we do now, the responsibility for this will be denied by the ‘new being’ that we are then born as in the next and future lives. And again this would be adding fuel to the fire even more vigorously as opposed to creating the conditions whereby the final extinction of the flame can occur.
    =======
    Q: Is years and years of Meditation; the only way out ?

    A: Aeons upon of aeons of development of wisdom is needed to counter the much more time spent in accumulating the ignorance and craving, given especially that the latter is basically all there is when one is born in the lower realms. But does this development of wisdom manifest as what is generally conceived of as the practice of ‘meditation’? The answer is no.

    Wisdom starts with intellectually understanding that there is ever only the present moment *now*. The nature of this is “one moment of consciousness at a time arisen to experience one object and falling away instantly”. This is so whether we are in the company of people busy talking or alone in the forest. As I said earlier, attachment (and of course ignorance) is around the corner and takes on any object. So to think that one needs to do anything special in order to “understand” is to in fact not only be ignorant about the present moment, but in fact *wrong* about the Path. And this latter is a graver wrong than anything else.

    In other words, better know that there is so much ignorance now and this is because little understanding has been developed, than to think in terms of future results and be driven by attachment and craving to take up some wrong practice.
    ======
    Q: It does not seem fair to me.

    A: This is due to “attachment to self” a misperception of the way things are. If understanding arose instead, there is detachment and a sense of relief.

    =======
    =>Any input or opinions would be appreciated.

    A: I’ve likely given more than you asked for and many here would not like my answers, if they read it. I hope however, others will find something useful in amongst all this.
     
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  5. consciousness

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    Wow Amarpal Singh Ji, Thank You very Much. That was very enlightening. I will read your post several times , so that it really sinks in.
     
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  6. consciousness

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    Thank You, Confused. I will read and re-read your post several times so that I get it, what you are saying. Thank You for the time and effort in writing in great detail.
     
  7. GodsDust

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    I am putting some of my thoughts. But if you start thinking in terms of 'What are we?' and 'What is life?' and 'What is God?', you yourself will get answers of these questions.

    Is there a purpose to our life here on this Earth? Or are we just part of Darwin's evolution?

    Gods Dust: Definitely we are the part of Darwin's evolution and if we go further back in the time, we are the by-product of Big-Bang which happened roughly around 14billion years ago. Your first question i.e. "do our life have purpose or not?” has nothing to do with our evolution and existence. We all have a specific purpose in our life. And the purpose existed from the initial point of creation of universe. Big-bang had the purpose of creating universe. Our solar system, sun, constitution of earth, distance of our planet with sun, abundance of water on earth all had the purpose of creating favourable conditions for life to evolve. Evolution had the purpose of evolving a simpler form of life to highly complex and intellectual form i.e. we humans. And not only we human and other living creatures has purpose, all non-living material also has the purpose. Similarly they have life too. (I can explain you if you are interested how non-living things have life.)
    Should we just enjoy life while we are here on this earth? Or should we try to achieve a higher state of consciousness?

    Gods Dust: Life is not about enjoying it or achieving higher consciousness. Life is about experiencing. Experiencing whatever comes in our life, experiencing happiness, experiencing pain, experience different flavour of life. And doing what your consciousness tells you to do. (May be good may be bad it doesn't matter). Because consciousness is the voice of God. And there is nothing like higher or lower state of consciousness. In my view, higher consciousness is nothing but to understand yourself, your surroundings. And by understanding yourself, you will ultimately understand the creator of whole world i.e. God.
    If we achieved a higher state of consciousness, would that not be just another prized possesion of our Ego ?
    Gods Dust: No. Because when you have true consciousness, you will not consider yourself as a separate entity from God. You will feel yourself as a part of God. You will see only God, attributes attached to human i.e. anger, happiness, sadness, pleasures, pains, ego will have no existance. So there is no question of ego comes.

    CAN we attain a higher state of consciousness by choice?
    Gods Dust: Yes, everything we do is by choice only. Like we have a choice to move our hand or not move it. We have choice to choose our actions. But our choice will give us the desired result is not guaranteed. It is governed by many variables (more preciously energies) in our surroundings.

    CAN we attain a higher state of consciousness without "God's" blessing?
    Gods Dust: You have asked this question because your definition of God is like a fatherly figure that has created the universe, and now he is sitting in heaven and watching us. If we do good karma's he will bless us or if we do bad deeds he will punish. My definition of God is different. He is not a separate entity he is present everywhere. In you, in me, in all our surroundings. So to achieve true consciousness, you just need to do your actions and if conditions are favourable (other people say it as 'GODs Blessing') you can achieve it.

    Is every hour and every minute of our life not orchestrated by "God" ?
    Gods Dust: Again, do not treat him separate from you. He is not orchestrated our life and sitting and watching. He is living through us.
    Is our life pre-programmed and we are destined to do what "God" has planned for us ? Do the scriptures not say that even the bad things we do are because we have not been "Blessed" by "God" ?
    Gods Dust: God has not pre-programmed us. He has pre-programmed the whole universe. And he himself is the universe. He is present in everything. When we do good, he is present, when we do bad, he is still present. He is present in each and every action happening in the whole universe. For some those actions are good for some those actions are bad. But for him, it’s just an action.
    Are we just a vibration that coalesced into a human body, based on our past Karma ?
    Gods Dust: No. I do not believe in past karmas. Because for me God is present in all deeds, may be good, may be bad. Consider him as a pure energy. And we are just the minute part of this pure energy i.e. God.
    Are we condemmend to this cycle of Birth and Death, for a crime we did not commit ? Is years and years of Meditation; the only way out ?
    It does not seem fair to me.
    Gods Dust: You are correct. It is not fair. But the question of fairness comes only if it is true. Soul, incarnation, cycle of birth and death are just concepts to explain God. If you consider God as a separate entity then many questions arise in your mind the way you have asked in this forum. And many things you will not feel fair. Secondly there were other questions like with population explosion how come total number of souls on the planet earth keeps on increasing. What happens to those souls which achieve higher consciousness and gets librated from cycle of birth and death? How come these days, doctors can calls souls from heaven when they create test-tube baby. And recently scientist has successfully conducted experiment giving life to a very simple single cell bacterium? And why who do good deeds get pains and sufferings and why who do bad karma's enjoy a luxurious life? And if we see sufferings and pain in this world, killing of innocents, natural calamities killing thousands of people, sometimes bigger questions like Does God exists comes in our mind. And many such questions.
    So let's start with basic question does God exist? Today in the computer age of human race history, science has proved how the universe got created through a big bang. So one can easily argue that big bang has created universe and as a matter of chance life started on planet earth. And as per Darwins theory of evolution, life evolved through simple single cell living organism to highly complex and intellectual animal i.e. Human. But even if we consider these scientific discoveries, still the fact remains is: for that big bang to happen, there was enormous amount of pure energy that was already present. In my view that energy is nothing but the God. And as per Newton's law 'Energy can neither be created nor it can be destroyed. It can be transformed from one from to another'. If you bring science and religion together, you will get the answer that energy is nothing but God. Religion says God is immortal, shapeless, formless, etc, etc. Don't you think God's definition matched with pure energy? So we can safely assume God do exists. But it is not like an individual which we human have given him the form. We have given him attributes. Our religions has given him different names some called him Allah, some called him Wahe guru, etc. We worship him. We want him to do the justice if do good karmas (deeds) and punishes those who do bad karmas. I think our definition of God is very incorrect. Because he is not a managing director of this universe. He himself is the universe. With the big bang, he gets himself transformed from pure energy form to clouds of sub-atomic particles, which combined and form atoms. Thus God get distributed in the whole world as galaxies, starts, planets, etc. He is present everywhere. Even in each and every single particle in this world. We are like extremely minute dust of God. He exists everywhere. If person karma is good, he is present, even if person karma is bad, he is still present in the person. He is present in happiness, he is present in pain, he is present in light, he is present in dark, he is present in sufferings, he is present in pleasures.
    Our identity and essence, is nothing but one of the numerous flavour of God. And we all are always connected to God because we are the integrated part of God himself. Only thing is God is changing is form continuously, sometime he was a pure energy, later he transformed to big bang, then to big galaxies, then to billions of stars and planets. He took form of initial single cell organism, he continuously changed to different forms, to different animals including human, plants, even dinasorouses. He keep changing it form from ice glacier, to highly hot volcanic eruptions. For big oceans to dry deserts. None of his form is constant. In each form he stays for some time and then takes a new form. And his stay is the life period of that form. Like we have some age and then we get demolish. Planets has life cycle too. Sun, stars has life period too, galaxies has life cycle as well. And ultimately universe has a life period. If we can read the latest findings in field of science, scientists have discovered black holes, which are highly concentrated form of gravitational energy. Its gravitation is so huge that even light cannot comes out of it. These are eating their surroundings by pulling all the objects in their surroundings. And one day they will eat all stars, planet, galaxies, and they will become only the pure concentrated ball of energy which is called cosmic egg from where the universe has begun. So in a way, science is now proving that our universe is also not infinite it too has some fixed life span. Only thing which is infinite is God and only thing which is constant is its changing form. There is no such thing like soul. We are like God’s dust.
    What I tried to explain you in scientific way, resembles same what our Sufi Saints like Guru Nanak Ji, Kabir ji, Baba Farid Ji has explained in their banis in Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
    Aval Allah noor upaaeiaa kudrat ke sab bandey ||
    Ek noor te sab jag upajaiaa koun bhalae ko mande ?
    logaa bharam n bhoolahu bhaaee ||
    khaalik khalak.. khalak mehi khaalik poor rahiou srab thaii....

    Hope my little explanations have opened some doors for your thought process. Be open to everything, read various Banis, try to understand them, even be open to other religions, learn what their scholars and saints have mentioned, do listen to science as well. And with all the material available, let your consciousness think, think more and more. And you will understand the God. You get answers to your questions. And this state of mind in your term is called as 'Higher Consciousness'.
    All the best!
    Do ask me if you do not understand anything or you need to discuss more.
    God's dust.
     
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  8. Archived_member14

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    Consciousness ji,


    On reading my response over just now, some parts I found quite incoherent. At the time of writing, it was taking me longer than expected and so towards the end when it was time to leave, I had to rush and could not review the post carefully before sending it.

    So if you don’t mind, I’d like to add here something to complement that first response.
    ====
    There is only one worthy goal in life which is, the development of understanding. Speaking in terms of the individual, it is ‘knowing who we really are’.

    If we don’t know what motivates our thoughts, whatever it is that we are involved with at the time amounts to very little. Thoughts about service to humanity, helping the destitute and the oppressed, world peace and so on are of no consequence, not to speak of the less impressive “worldly” goals. If we don’t know who we are, even if we were praised and recognized for our achievements by people all over the world, we’d end up increasing much more ignorance and craving than any little good which happen to come along.

    Indeed, the lofty goals that some people have, behind these are motivations that is in fact self-serving. Idealistic thoughts are usually an expression of pigheadedness. They are conceived of and taken seriously because ‘attachment to view’ gives the impression in fact, of being right. However someone who has had even a little glimpse into his own mind, he would know not to think in terms of changing the outside world, the kind of thoughts would not be entertained.

    But those who do not appreciate this, to them it would seem that someone who minds his own mind (or business) is being insensitive to the needs and sufferings of other people. But this is not true. The truth is that he knows not to think with attachment and aversion which is what happens most of the time when we react to certain ‘situations’. Besides he also understands that such things as generosity and kindness and compassion must start from *now*, namely towards those around him. More importantly however, in realizing how ignorance and craving in fact comes in the way of any genuine kindness and compassion, his being aware of this opens the way for these and other kinds of good to flow unhindered.
    In conclusion, he does not take upon himself to be the world’s manager, but knows rightly to watch his own mind.

    Now the above may come across as yet another ‘ideal’ to follow, but no, in reality all this is very light and freeing. In other words, understanding who we are, one knows also not to have any expectations about anything. One does not overreach, however there be failure or success both are gone and is past, hence no reason to dwell upon.

    More need to be said, but I don’t wish to flood you with too much information at this time. ;-)
     
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  9. consciousness

    consciousness
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    Thank You, God's Dust. A slightly different perspective but very nice. I will certainly read what you have said over and over again , so I fully understand it. Thank You. You are unusually wise for your age.
     
    #8 consciousness, Sep 17, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2010
  10. Archived_member14

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    Jasdir ji,


     
  11. spnadmin

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    jasdir ji

    It would be very interesting, and also helpful, for many forum members if you were to take your ideas and develop them. Perhaps post an entire shabad from SGGS that fits your comments above. Then speak more on these issues. I have noticed that you have some strongly held views. We would enjoy the opportunity to reflect on your ideas and interact with each other. Thanks.
     
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  12. Archived_member14

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    Jasdir ji,


    Please describe a ‘worldly person’, what are the concerns that make him one. And also what it is that makes someone not worldly, what does he know/ understand. No hard and fast rules, but what about causes and conditions in either case?
     
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  13. Archived_member14

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    Jasdir ji,

    I copy pasted your message into Word last night with the intention to compose a reply to you today. Apparently it seems that you have removed all your messages and probably left. But in case you are reading in, here is my response which I hope you will not mind me having posted.
    ======
    Quote:
    <<Anyhow think "I" that it would be difficult for u to belive that:
    The "Time" comes when somebody in real changes from wordly to A true devotee,
    "Time" is the reason,
    "Time" is the cause,
    "Time" is the concern,
    "Time" is the condition,
    Nothing can happen before "Time",

    Example: When romeo falled in "Love" with Juliet, It was not decided,
    It was the "Time",
    Similerly: When in true sence, somebody fall in "Love" with "God",It is not decided, It "Happens", or It is the "Time" ,

    "Love" is not the thing to do, It "Happens" naturelly,
    "Pyaar kiya nahin jata, hoo jata hai",

    There is not any difference between "Bhakti" or "Love", "Love" means "Bhakti", "Bhakti" means "Love",

    "Love" can only push somebody to the higher peaks of spirituality,
    There are no rites and ritules in true "Love",
    "Jin pream kiyo tin prabh payo" - guru gobind singh ji,>><end quote>


    Thank you for your answer.
    I think what you are basically saying is that, what will happen will happen when the conditions are right. As a general statement I agree with this, with the proviso that it is about impersonal realities and no implications of determinism. However I wasn’t seeking an answer in terms of ‘time’, but more precisely what are the conditions that are encouraging of worldliness and those that lead to the opposite. In this regard you do refer to the presence and absence of ‘love’ as determining factor, which of course I don’t agree with, given especially that ‘attachment’ is what most people go by mistaking it for love / kindness.

    But never mind. You’re bringing up this has been cause for some of my own thoughts on the matter, but given that I’ve never read anything along the same lines by anyone else, it therefore must contain some faulty reasonings. I put them forward for your consideration, so please let me know what you think.

    It is obvious that so long as we continue being infatuated by the ways of the ‘world’ we remain worldly. If our morality is based on the actions of others, then we are indeed very far from being independent and our judgements based on Truth. One good reference point might be in considering the ‘eight worldly conditions’, namely, gain and loss, fame and disgrace, praise and blame, and pleasure and pain. It would seem that so long as we continued being *moved* by these, the conditions leading to our rising above them need much development.

    If for example, we look for praise then our actions are likely to be dictated by worldly values. Even if not initially, such as when we think in terms of ‘good’ actions, the attachment to being praised often takes over and pollutes our judgements as to what is right and what is wrong. And when we are moved by blame on the other hand, usually, this is because of self-consciousness and conceit that we then feel ‘guilty’ (this is aversion again), rather than a sense of moral shame.

    Gain and loss is often related to material wants, which is of course to be expected and therefore fine to that extent. However, as for example people’s desire to be rich and avoiding being considered poor, this becomes more a matter of worldly values. Sometimes we gain something and sometimes we lose, however we are quite carried away by the one and disturbed by the other and this is because we hate the idea of say, having made a foolish investment and like the idea of being clever. Again the result of such an attitude is an inclination not to live by moral values and lacking in kindness. One looks to one’s own gain and is ever ready to step on other people’s feet.

    Fame and disgrace are clearly so irrelevant, but many people seek to have one and avoid the other. Again, it usually has nothing to do with trying to develop good qualities, but rather whatever it is that the world accepts and not. One seeks to be popular in school, within one’s community, country or the world, as a pop star, actor, football star, social critic, politician, leader, activist, scientist, billionaire, writer, TV personality, or even as someone who helps the destitute. So long as there is concern for one’s “image”, one must surely then remain worldly.

    Pleasure and pain is of course a big motivating factor. And so long as attachment has not been eradicated, we’d be moved by this till the end of existence. However, often this is associated with perversion not only of perception and consciousness, but also that of ‘view’. The influence of this latter is such that often, though we may already have enough to be happy with, our yearning for more ‘possessions’ cause us again to disregard morality and other kinds of good. We want to also have the 60” LCD TV that our neighbour has or the Lexus that our richer friends drive. And it is not the case that it follows from here that our moral values become corrupted, but in fact that we lack understanding. After all, in terms of the pleasant experiences and basic necessities, we had enough already!

    So what is the cause underlying all this? Ignorance and craving is of course at the root. However, it would seem that “perversion of view” in particularly is tied to this phenomenon of being a ‘worldly person’ and the attachment associated is that to “self”. The perception of ‘self’ is what leads to taking other people so seriously, so much so that their values, unworthy though they are, becomes the object of our emulation. But of course it is not that we becomes influenced by them, but rather that we *are* like them.

    And what is the solution? Developing wisdom. This of course means that we understand who we are, as we are?

    It does not mean that we try to get rid of things or stay away from society. It means that we understand that these eight worldly conditions are only the result of our good and bad deeds in the past and any associated thoughts in the moment. More importantly it is to be understood that these are fleeting and not worth holding on to. Failing this results in so much perversion of mind, for example, a sound of praise has arisen and fallen away, yet we cling to it, relishing the idea, when in fact behind our back, that same person could be criticizing us. And this is how it is with all these eight worldly conditions. They arise and fall away in an instant, yet because there is so much ignorance about their true nature, we continue instead, to chase the dreams that are conjured.

    They arise when they do and we get what we deserve, no use trying to control anything. It is hard enough that we remain ignorant about all that happens to us, it becomes even harder when overlooking basic morality, we begin then to accept worldly values. An otherwise moral person easily becomes corrupted if he doesn’t know better. We can as they say, ‘be in the world but not of it’ and the only way that this will ever be maintained and move further in the positive direction, is with the development of understanding who we are. ;-)

    PS: I don't know your reasons Jasdir ji, but I sincerely hope that you will continue writing and expressing yourself here. It is always good to put forward one's ideas allowing them to be tested.
     
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  14. jasdir singh

    jasdir singh
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    "Love",
    The journey of "Soul" starts for "Love" and ends in "Love",
    So, everything which comes in between the journey,,,, is for "Love",
    ("har khat mera saien suni seaj na koi"-gurbani)
    What is "Love"?
    Everything is for "Love", or is in "Love",
    There is no life without "Love",
    No one can live without "Love",

    The water "Love" to run towards sea through rivers etc.., then again steam, then clouds, then snow or rain, then again rivers, then again sea

    The seed "Love" to grow into a tree, than fruits, than again seed, then again tree.

    The rich man "Love" to collect money, more money, more money, more money.,,,,,,,because he is in "Love" with money.

    The drunken person wants to drink more wine, more wine, more wine ,,,,,,,,because he is in "Love" with wine,

    Somebody is in "Love" with opposite sex,

    Or some peoples "Love" to talk in favour of their religion, or they "Love" to show the greatness of their religon, Or they "Love" to show their intelligence or knowledge regarding their religon, or they "Love" to proove how important their religon is,,,,,,Anyhow this is not their fault,,,,,, They are also in "Love" of their intelligence, greatness, importance, knowledge, or religon.

    Everything is in "Love" or affected by "Love"

    Similarly, every action is in "Love", or for "Love" or unconditional "Love"

    There is "Love" in every heart,
    In fact "Soul" is the drop of "Love"

    But at the end the "Soul" thinks why to waste the time for dust or wordly pleasures,,,,,,,As they are not stable or for ever, So, where is my true "Love",
    As a result the "Love" changes its mode,
    The "Soul" gets fed up from all types of "Loves" or wordly pleasures,
    The water or "Soul" starts thinking for final "Love" or sea or "God".

    So everything is based on "Time"
    The "Time" comes when "Soul" gets fed up from all wordly Loves or Pleasures,

    "God" is the subject,,,,,,, to "Love",,,,, The "Love"
    "God" is the subject,,,,,,, to know The "Love"
    That is why it is called "God" is "Love" "Love" is "God",
    Tho every action is in "Love" so there is no place for "Time" in between,
    So, "God" or "Love" is away from "Time",

    So,Confused Ji,
    I hope u will be able to understand the point,
    Always,Respect U,goodbye.
     
  15. jasdir singh

    jasdir singh
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    Purpose of life

    First of all,
    As it was a quarry from the Respected ADMNISTRATION S.P.N, that topics should be posted with compleate reference from Gurbani,
    So, I request the Admnistartion S.P.N please check this post as a sample weather it is sutable or fits to all the terms and conditions of S.P.N , -------with respect, jasdir singh.

    Have checked. Please see comments in line and also my reply above.

    Post:

    The Lord sets before us the goal, which is to attain complete oneness with the Lord--the One Being. We can reunite with the Source from which we once emanated, and regain our permanent abode in the Home of our Father, where joy and peace reign supreme beyond the reach of annihilation and ignorance, beyond all miseries of the troubled ocean of life.the Lord exhorts us to realise Him in our souls, to rise in Him, losing all sense of the little ego "I," in the living temples of our bodies. The Kingdom of God is within us. We have to recognise the Inner Man as the image of God, the physical body as the temple of God, the tabernacle of the Holy Ghost, in which the Lord makes His appearance. In these living temples we have to attune our souls with God and live in closer communion with Him.

    Incomplete posting of Gurbani has been deleted, per previous warning.
     
  16. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Re: Purpose of life

    jasdir singh ji

    It appears that the very concerns I have communicated to you both in the threads, and by private message, are again present in your comments today.

    "Purpose of Life" (a new thread which you created) appears to be a reply to SPN member "confused" ji, and to his comments directed to you in "The Purpose of Life." A different thread. I have merged both threads.

    Let me close as follows. I share a major concern with other forum members who have communicated with me. You mix and blend the words of the Guru with the "mat" of other traditions, freely, as if gurbani and Sri Guru Granth Sahib were merely one more book of spiritual wisdom among many. As if its teachings can be placed in a context of other religious teaching. And as if, out of this mix, a greater wisdom can be found. Above you mixed Christian concepts with a shabad ( I think) which BTW has been deleted (reason given in-line).

    If this is your intention, then you must clearly identify your writing as your personal "mat" which has nothing whatsoever to do with Sri Guru Granth Sahib, other than a line here and a line there which fascinate you.

    If you wonder why this is alarming for others in the forum, it is because the wisdom of the Guru is the Shabad, and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj is our Guru -- not to be treated as if all wisdom is equal, or as if all books of wisdom have equal importance to Sikhs.

    This is my final comment. You are welcome to speak as Jasdir Singh ji, but you are not welcome to speak in the guise of giving kathas which tap into the wisdom of Satguruji blended together with the wisdom of every other mat that sits on a library shelf. Such posts will be deleted.
     
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    #15 spnadmin, Sep 22, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2010
  17. Archived_member14

    Archived_member14
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    Jasdir ji,

    Your last remark first:
    “So,Confused Ji,
    I hope u will be able to understand the point,
    Always,Respect U,goodbye.”

    C: No I don’t, but I am guessing a few things and here are my remarks in between your comments.
    =========
    Quote Jasdir:
    "Love",
    The journey of "Soul" starts for "Love" and ends in "Love",

    C: I wonder what you think if I said that, “the Path begins and ends with Wisdom”?
    ========
    Quote Jasdir:
    So, everything which comes in between the journey,,,, is for "Love",
    ("har khat mera saien suni seaj na koi"-gurbani)
    What is "Love"?
    Everything is for "Love", or is in "Love",
    There is no life without "Love",
    No one can live without "Love",

    C: Concepts such as ‘love’ which I’ve been using all my life unreflectingly or even those that have been carefully pondered over, I now see them as being in fact products of ignorance on my part. The reason being that I have never studied their nature directly. Let alone this, I’ve usually lumped many states together, and worse, such as in this case, taken attachment for being love. Indeed I continue to take what is unwholesome for being wholesome. Besides, I’ve also come to learn about something called “cheating states”, more or less as byproduct of a desire for results in the sphere of morality and knowledge.
    And your above statement sounds rather abstract, and so I really do not know what you are trying to convey.
    ========
    Quote Jasdir:
    The water "Love" to run towards sea through rivers etc.., then again steam, then clouds, then snow or rain, then again rivers, then again sea

    The seed "Love" to grow into a tree, than fruits, than again seed, then again tree.

    C: Of course ‘love’ is a state of mind, water and seed can’t have love. You are probably just making a simile, however it seems to be one which muddles the picture even more for me. :-/
    ========
    Quote Jasdir:
    The rich man "Love" to collect money, more money, more money, more money.,,,,,,,because he is in "Love" with money.

    The drunken person wants to drink more wine, more wine, more wine ,,,,,,,,because he is in "Love" with wine,

    Somebody is in "Love" with opposite sex,

    C: Now these all are quite familiar. They clearly point to ‘attachment’. I doubt this is what you are actually encouraging in another context, are you?
    =========
    Quote Jasdir:
    Or some peoples "Love" to talk in favour of their religion, or they "Love" to show the greatness of their religon, Or they "Love" to show their intelligence or knowledge regarding their religon, or they "Love" to proove how important their religon is,,,,,,Anyhow this is not their fault,,,,,, They are also in "Love" of their intelligence, greatness, importance, knowledge, or religon.

    C: It sounds like you are telling me something here and I relate this to your comment that I quoted in the beginning of this message. Perhaps I’m being overly sensitive and I hope that I am mistaken. However I react not just to explain my position in case there are others here who have come to a similar conclusion, but also so that you will know of other possible motives for anyone posting here. But of course there is also the possibility of my being deluded about my own motivations, in which case, I thank you for trying to point out my faults.

    I have absolutely no reason to talk in favour of the religion that I follow or show its greatness. There is no doubt that I strongly believe in it, however all I wish is to share the understandings that I’ve gained without any need even to direct anyone to some books, let alone promote the religion. It is me who anyone here will be talking to and so I do my best, to ask someone to study some texts would be an unnecessary diversion and could result in reliance on authority, which I do not wish to encourage. Likewise I must take responsibility for what I say and would not wish to hide behind any authority.

    As to ‘intelligence’, I believe that many here are more intelligent than I am. Recently I did a test and discovered that I’m ADHD to a high level, so I really don’t have a high estimation of myself, especially these days. ;-) With regard to such things as morality as well, I sincerely believe that many people here are of better character than I am.

    Yes, as I said, I strongly believe in what I understand, even though at the same time I know it to be at the kindergarten level only. And yes, even this much is enough to arouse so much confidence such that I am ready to face anyone at all, including the most intelligent people in the world in debate about what Truth is. The level of confidence and the way that I express myself is perhaps the reason behind the wrong impression....?
    ==========
    Quote Jasdir:
    Everything is in "Love" or affected by "Love"
    Similarly, every action is in "Love", or for "Love" or unconditional "Love"
    There is "Love" in every heart,
    In fact "Soul" is the drop of "Love"

    C: If you asked me, I’d say that “attachment” is the reason we keep being reborn and this is because even now it dominates our lives. As a friend often points out, attachment is both the teacher and the student.
    ==========
    Quote Jasdir:
    But at the end the "Soul" thinks why to waste the time for dust or wordly pleasures,,,,,,,As they are not stable or for ever,

    C: Nothing lasts even for an instant. And to tell you the truth, one reason that I joined this group was because of the perception of being ‘sansaari’. People’s fascination with worldly knowledge and understandings as got from science for example, really annoyed me. I tried to draw people’s attention to the reality of Karma which I know to also be taught in Sikhism. But it turns out that no one is interested enough in this..... :-/
    =========
    Quote Jasdir:
    So, where is my true "Love",
    As a result the "Love" changes its mode,
    The "Soul" gets fed up from all types of "Loves" or wordly pleasures,
    The water or "Soul" starts thinking for final "Love" or sea or "God".

    C: “Soul” is another abstraction that I do not believe in. And the cure for worldliness is in seeing through all that which makes up our lives as being fleeting and insubstantial.

    So clearly our understanding is very different. But neither of us should mind this. ;-)
    =========
    Quote Jasdir:
    So everything is based on "Time"
    The "Time" comes when "Soul" gets fed up from all wordly Loves or Pleasures,

    "God" is the subject,,,,,,, to "Love",,,,, The "Love"
    "God" is the subject,,,,,,, to know The "Love"
    That is why it is called "God" is "Love" "Love" is "God",
    Tho every action is in "Love" so there is no place for "Time" in between,
    So, "God" or "Love" is away from "Time",

    C: Yes, time is an illusion and the sooner we realize this, the better.

    Best wishes,
    Sukinder
     
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  18. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Sukinder ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Well said and greatly put. I love your responses. Always to the point.

    Thanks for sharing.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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