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General The Problem with Religion...

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by S|kH, Nov 11, 2007.

  1. S|kH

    S|kH
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    Over the last few years as I started to dwell more into Sikhism, and religion in general, I began to notice revisionist history and trends that transcend all cultures and religion.

    My main issues are summarized in this paragraph :

    Theistic belief has been the controlling social structure/order for the generations before Governmental Law/Democracy came into place. By a theistic religion, we are not held responsible for our actions, and we attribute unknown knowledge to that of God. There are always more well-defined suitable goals which exist not in this life, but the next. Theistic religions always try to disconnect the member from society, and make them revitalize internally and focus on a Godly connection, rather than an external connection to man and materialism. How in the modern world does this structure still live? A new system is needed in order to progress humanity (Rich) to humanity in other parts of the unfortunate world (poor) that hold different characteristics (race, religion, etc...).

    The mainstream followers of any religion provide the fuel for the fundamental organizations that still exist today. When religion became organized, it is utilized like any other institution to keep the wealthy wealthy, and to keep the select few in power. If Granthis wouldnt get paid, free trips to America, and free housing, would they really be granthis? Seems like Gurdwaras and the Gurdwaras committee boards are always in the need for "donations" ? Seems like God can handle a lot of things, except money. Donate 1/2 of your first pay check to Gurdwara, $1 per day, per visit, "Matha Tahk".
    Fundamentalist organizations that strive off division to create their own niche in which they will attain survivability and power. Everything is divide and conquer. Sikhism is based on teaching you about this identity and the sacredness of it. Humans, in general, need to see beyond identity, these are all created by forces in power to keep us mindless and commercialized. See beyond that of race, religion, wealth, class.

    Religion supports blind submission to authority. "God" controls it, "Karma." "The Watcher". "God is everywhere, be a good person." In the main paragraph listed above, it implies that theistic religious belief systems are the ground roots to much of the trouble today. Theistic belief systems rely on not questioning God, because the authority is greater than the individual person, and is not comprehend-able by the human brain (even though science has now specified why humans have the desire to believe, or did have the desire). I feel this logic which is similar to many religions around the world left humanity in the state we are in today. Submissive zombies to the people in power (television, government, police force). The average person refuses to read the mandate given by the people in power (government) to realize his rights (when committing a felony, or getting pulled over by the cops) and will simply submit to any form of punishment.

    Religious myth was always used to control societies. The person watching over your every move? Organizing an unorganized mob by telling them to keep "5 K's" because everyone was from a different background, and needed to learn how to work together? Karma? All are methods of keeping social order at the respective time.

    Let go of the past, a new age is coming.
    Religion is a thing of the past. Punjabi people need to progress.

    P.S. - The paragraphs above may not make sense, and may not be coherently connected to each other. Just random thoughts I'd mumble about.

    The first defense always given is "Your stating problems that are with Sikhs, and not with Sikhi". In this sense, you are always right, Sikhi is perfect and the Sikhs aren't, because of human nature. Why hold onto an ideology which throughout the years has failed miserably, time and time again?

    When the Gurus first arrived, they brought about change that initiated intelligence and sped up development. They did not try to reform and adapt previously tried methods. They took what worked best for the people before them, and added in new structures which went against conventional belief, and mixed them out to form a progressive movement. Religion in today's time, claims that the peak of intelligence is that of a man who lived hundreds (thousands) of years ago. That any form of social interaction or disruption is "maya" and "kaljug" to confuse the individual into thinking those times were perfect, and now things are bad. This is all a form to disconnect the individual from his society. To get him to focus elsewhere rather than on Earth, on this society, on this world, in this life-time.

    Truth be told, if the Siri Guru Granth Sahib was written today, or just a random book in the library, no one would follow it with their life "on the double-edged sword" anymore than someone would follow "The Tipping Point" or "Blink" for moral guidance and objectivity. The Bible would be no different than any other science fiction books based around morality and ensuring a safe society.

    Question #2 - If God exists, prove it.
     
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  3. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    It seems like that you are under fundamental aethist propaganda.FIrst make a list of problems today and then describe how many problems in this world are because of religion and how many because of other things.

    aLso please tell me was

    was first world war fought because of religion?

    was second world fought because of religion?
     
  4. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    FRom past 100 years aethists are attacking religions.I am also interested to know that apart from earning money and making their careers
    What aethists has done for humanti and poor people
     
  5. S|kH

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    I actually feel the opposite. It was religious propaganda that made me "believe" that "believing" was right. Social pressure.

    By all means, I don't consider myself a naive kid, and I highly doubt that I was convinced into atheism by propaganda or the internet. It's more like this is the most logical, rational, and fact-based method out there. I pretty much locked myself in a room, and this truth liberated my mind.

    I don't understand your question of the world wars being fought because of religion? Are you implying that disbelief in religion caused wars to arise? Religion has caused wars and many conflicts in the past, and will do again in the future (Crusades, dark ages, delhi riots were based on a sole identity of one religion vs. the next). Let's look at the modern method of government -- Law / Democracy. No two Democracies have ever went to war together. We generally believe, that if the entire world was broken into democracies the world would be better. Naive thought, christians believe if everyone was christian (i.e. the same), the world would be better. Everyone was Khalsa, the world would be pure.

    All I'm saying is religion is an out-dated system that relies on the peak of intelligence occurring hundreds of years ago, and making you as disconnected from today's world as possible. It's all been revisionist history written by people to keep themselves in power.

    Half these stories about Sikh history are pure imagination. Half these things that sikhs should practice, are not practiced by the people in power because they are only using the religious myth to stay in power and keep control.
     
  6. Sinister

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    Dont be so ignorant and judgemental on atheists...you need to do some homework.


    Aside from the countless scientists and professors that are atheists that have come and gone... yea what have atheists contributed to society?

    go ahead and watch this (i dare you...lol):
    YouTube - Atheist


    The interface which we communicate through now was invented by an atheist.

    What has atheism done for humanity and poor people?
    -Is this some kind of joke?

    have you read the communist manifesto? communism is an entirely atheist movement for equality and justice. Every trade union/manufacturing union is a direct off-shoot of the communist/socialist movement.

    The feminist movement was and continues to be an atheist movement. Again a movement for equal rights amongst HUMANITY.

    Greepeace and countless other environmental organizations started off as atheist organizations.

    atheists are just as morally developed as any other human being. You apparently have been affected by religious propaganda; which believes that atheists are blood sucking, selfish, "lost", inhuman scum.

    so now you know what atheists have accomplished...and I can assure you they have been around for much longer than a 100 years!

    open your eyes.
    cheers
     
  7. Sinister

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    Well aside from everything you said (which to a large part I agree with).... I think you are bieng rather unfair with a short sited statement like that.

    Nobody can prove anything to you. You have to do that yourself...grow up and make decisions for yourself. Do not rely on others to teach you everything or dictate teachings upon you (even the guru's of sikhi would agree with that)


    My veiws:
    religion should be studied as a historical and social science. Religion is a political institution as much as it is a spiritual one. Many devout believers forget this; thus believe it is unholy to look at religion with a critical eye. In return, the monopolization of power is the outcome. The Granth should be worshipped as much as any book of knowledge or morality.
    but rituals are hard to let go of.

    what I agree with most; is your thoughts on submission:
    "submission" to God is largely the islamic influence in our faith. Why should we submit to an all knowing, all powerfull entity?

    It sounds like the wishes and wetdream of a a dictator or politicians, if you ask me! .... complete submission is the route to disaster for all of humanity.

    The problem with that statement is "IF" it was written today! it wasnt written today or yesterday...but during a political upheavel in Punjab almost 500-300 years ago. So it holds a particular historical weight which must be taken into consideration. The change it brought must be analyzed and respected as historical fact.

    You need the ability to remeber the past in order to progress...

    you cant just "let it go".....but you can tweak it....and this is what society will eventually do. Of course you will always have conservatives who wish to perserve the past....but they fall victim to societal strains and die-off over the natural course of time.

    Yes religion is outdated and this point is completely valid. To think that people 300 years ago were morally purer to people today is insanity. (we are just as bad). I consistantly here "this is the period of Kaljug".... to which I reply:
    "well if Kaljug is indicative of democracy, freedom of thought, freedom of speech, free social market and jelly doughnuts then I rather be in Kaljug than what preceded it!"

    cheers
     
  8. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    Dear s1kh

    You just said that most of the world's problem is because of theistic beleif that's why i just asked you make a list of world's problem and then tell how many are because of religion and how many are because of other things.


    Democracies did went war on one another.It itself is not a perfect system.In democracies
    government only hear the voice of people which have the numbers.Leaders don't care about minorities.let me give you an example in india jaats,rajputs in some states are in the list of backward classes which is total B.S. because these communities were never oppressed on the other hand many communities are still struggling to get the status of tribals or schedule castes , reason they don't have votebank.

    Religion could be an outdated system but a peaceful religion do keeeps a human mind control.There is no way you could fulfil the material desires of 6.5 billion people.If religion gives people happiness then what's wrong in it.

    As far as world's problem are concerned the main culprit is human nature.It is human nature to fight and proves his superiority on other humans.The human nature of jealousy,
    greed,unlimited wants etc are main culprits.people also fight for their culture ,language
    ,country etc .

    Let me ask you a simple question at present demographics of world is highly imbalanced
    on one hand south asia , china is highly over populated.The farmers of these countries
    are facing severe shortage of land on the other hand canada,australia
    russia are countreis with least populatoion and abundance of land .The question is will these countries allow farmers from asia to settle and do farming.the answer is no because the if people migrate in large number to these countries then the present white majority will loose its majority status so don't think that religion is mainly responsible for world's problem.
     
  9. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    Dear sinister

    I was 100% sure that you are going to reply in this thread.reason your tribal mentality
    will force you.Please don't mind but we all have tribal mentality and we all associate
    ourself with different tribes.Just like whenever anyone say bad about sikhism my tribal mentality forces me to counter him and when anybody say's bad about atheists your tribal mentality forces you to counter him

    oh__ i don't have unlimited download internet connection and i don't even have speakers in my pc so please tell me what is in that you tube Vdo

    Did he invented this interface for humanity or did he invented it for poor people.It was
    his ambition to invent that's why he invented.do most of the scientists ever think that
    would be the impact of their inventions on humans and poor people.Most of the world's weapon of mass destruction are invented by scientists.They just don't even think about what would be the impact of their inventions on society.its their job to invent that's why they jus invent

     
  10. Sinister

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    Hello Kds_1980: read the entire post carefully. If you put vanity aside for while you may just end up agreeing with it:

    After that post, which I read in its entirety, I have concluded that you are just as blissfully shallow as S1KH.

    The typical brain-dead bashing of atheists was fully anticipated before I even turned my gaze to the first response (which unfortunately happened to be yours).


    The example of communism was to show you that the atheist (humanistic) mindset goes well beyond that of selfishness and desire. Socialism is an ideology that revolves around eliminating desire and want (something a Sikh…like you claim to be…. should praise).
    Is not the Langar a communal meal?…. Communism and Sikhism, aside from their superficial beliefs, have a lot more in common than initially meets the eye!

    Then you throw out the example of Stalin? Again….. typical…. a fully anticipated response. After 900 posts on this site your level of argument development never fails to numb my synapses.

    Stalin wasn’t a communist or a socialist…he was dictator and Czar of Russia. He was as much communist as Osama Bin Laden is a Muslim yearning for peace, As much as a child molesting bishop is a missionary of Jesus. Or as much as the fact that PRAKASH SINGH BADAL is the true ambassador of SIKHI.

    Good Ideologies are always bullet-proof” …. only when they are applied to real world scenarios is when they are corrupted by men.
    Be it Sikh scriptures of the Guru’s
    Be it the Communist Manifesto by Marx

    The idea of there existing a perfect commune is just as UTOPIAN as the idea of there existing a perfect Religious individual or religious state. The tasks are equally utopian.

    All ideologies are subject to manipulation for personal gains…. And this is a fact you cannot deny.

    The only reason America has a middle class today is because of unions! The only reason America has unions is because of socialism! Believe it or not America is a socialist welfare state. With the dawn of industrial revolution it was a necessary way of lifting the working class from exploitation, alienation and poverty.

    FACT: Communistic Ideology has done more for the poor than any religious movement!



    There have been many selfless acts by many individuals including the Sikh Guru’s. What I am saying is; why do you label some selfless acts as holy and ‘good for humanity’ while others you brush off as less relevant?

    Here is your psuedo-attempt in trying to put down another atheistic organization that has lead to the progression of humanity (just like Sikhism). And whose members have performed extremely selfless acts to help their fellow human:

    You are a MALE in the 21st century, living in a developed country! You were never forced into a marriage to pay off your parent’s debt, you were not forced into a Burqa by some fundamentalist, you never had your genitals sewn shut, you were not sold off as some sex slave, you were never told “your vote doesn’t count”, you were never prohibited to leave the house without an escort. Feminists fight for rights and the only way to do this is to mobilize societies so that underprivileged women could have some empowerment. Making there voices heard…in the political sphere.
    These are the very things feminists fight for! And all you have to say is “im not a big fan of feminists” ? of course your not a big fan….you think a feminists primary concern is to bash housewives? Not the case at all…their primary concern is to fight injustice.

    Yes some fraction of feminist ideology does frown upon housewives (but do you know why?):
    The only way any discrimination would have stopped initially is if a patriarchal society provided woman with assets …. This unfortunately was not the case and many women were completely dependant on husbands. Women had no Vote, and thus no voice … they were viewed as unequal (and this continues). What feminists fear is if woman return to this dependency stage many of the equal rights will be reverted (and they are right in this conclusion).

    Feminists have done a lot more good than harm. At least you can agree on this?
    The movement was a tremendous success; only to be achieved by a SELFLESS atheistic organization with largely atheist members who wished for the benefit and progression of humanity.




    yea with religious propaganda!

    and S1KH is wrong in many of his interpretations...he too has a polarizing veiw on religion. Religion has played a pivotal roll in the development of humanity and he fails to recognize it.

    also,

    To make an argument that atheist’s are selfish and self-absorbed materialists, is a statement that I find as articulate as my dog barking at the moon. (and your smart enough to know that).

    cheers
     
  11. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    As i earlier said my post was directed toward s1kh.He was attacking religions that's why i asked him to tell what great things atheists are doing


    The communism is failed ideology communists tried to fanatically impose their ideology on many countries but all over the world it failed badly.communists ,socialist countries
    became bankrupt but i guess this truth is too bitter to swallow for communists.

    O.k. so what about naxalites who are killing people from 40 years in india or should give you more examples of voilence by communists.communism is voilent ideology no doubt it produces leaders like stalin

    So now the king of capitalist countries is now a socialist welfare state.I have read so many articles by communists of india no one has ever praised america for being socialist
    I guess you have more knowledge than them.With this type of arguement i simply cannot debate.

    I am not putting down any selfless acts of others.I am just not a fan of communism or socialism.

    I already said that everybody should fight against injustice and voilence against women
    The fact is the cruelities you mentioned are still happening on large scale in poor and developing coutries no one is able to stop them

    As far as burqa is concerned go and ask muslim feminists to fight against it.Burqa itslef is a religious issue of muslims and they are not going to give it up.Also the cases of shah bano and imrana are very well known in india how much feminists helped these women everybody knows it.

    A quick question to you are all the feminists of this world atheists? if not then why are you giving all the credit to atheists.

    majority of people who leave religion or become non practising do it for material gains
    don't do it for fighting injustice or becoming selfless.again a bitter truth
     
  12. S|kH

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    First off, thanks for the reply. I've read all the previous replies and will make an attempt to clear up some things. Besides all that, this is definitely intellectually stimulating, which is what I was looking for.

    As per my question "Prove God exists" -- it wasn't directed as short-sighted or shallowness. I was actually going to make another thread titled "Let's play a game" and tell someone to give me the role of the theist or atheist, and we prove points first logically, then metaphysically, and then religiously to try to derive an equal conclusion. Instead, I got tired and latched it on at the bottom of my initial post lol.


    I generally agree with everything else you've said. As for Sikhism, the submission aspect definitely came in from islamic philosophy, but I was talking in regards to all religion. I believe any diety or theistic belief that requires you to become detached from the current world for a "larger meaning" or has terms relevant to "God's Will/Hukam/Kirpa" is the same form of submission. Even if it was islamic influence, I believe theistic philosophies rely on the individual to always submit to a higher calling. Christianity has similar attributes, as do other religions not as deeply influenced by islam. Although, this is a moot point because we will never fully be able to analyze a community so deeply influenced by Islam to see what it would be without the influence.

    Second, by no means did I mean to discredit the impact of the SGGS as a historical book relevant to its time period. It was leaps and bounds ahead of other material published at that time period for motivating people to work together for a safer outcome. That's the thing though -- as time goes on, people "intrepret" newer meanings out a book which was written for a specific time period. My analogy to sggs being released in present-time was just that, if you remove the book out of its historical context, you began to realize the "morality/theory/philosophy" of it is not as attuned to modern day as a religious believer would make it seem. My main point was to show that like any other book, is written in historical context. Religious people believe that their scriptures trascend time, that the "law of God" does not change. If you take out the historical context, and refer to it just from the religiousity aspect -- it does change, it loses most of its meaning. Of course, you are correct though. This is just an "IF" statement. No one will know 100%, but its safe to say the above with the amount of science-fiction books that are created in today's time, or the books based around societal morals.

    As far as letting go of the past, and tweaking it. I do not mean 100% let go, of course if you turn a blind-eye history will repeat itself. You definitely learn from it, but the religious believer in general does not feel the need to tweak. And that's not even my main concern.

    My main concern is the religious apologetics that tweak the religion on a personal-level, but allow the fundamentalists to take control of the institutions. It's the apologetics that need to seek the truth, and let go more-so, so that the institution can be re-run and not under extreme conservative control. It's the mainstream Sikhs that allow the fuel for the fundamentalists to stay in power. (Like any religion, theistic belief, aka "submission"). The underlying problem is the theistic nature that "it doesnt effect me or my family" and to "submit to a bigger authority not recognizable". Sounds very similar to someone submitting to an authority based on a different continent that they do not even know who runs or the motives behind running it (SGPC, and the blind sikhs in western worlds who follow strict rehit). These people only change the aspects of religion that effect them, and refuse to acknowledge that they need to work together on a societal level to overcome this blind submission to someone in power. The people they are submitting to, are no longer God, they are allowing themselves to become victimized by people in power, by the institutions that fuel off the religious myth of submitting to a God and keeping humanity disconnected from reality. (another note, what an amazing way to take your mind off war, losing your children, other than to become so disconnected with reality -- SGGS in historical context). Have we reached a point of higher awareness and knowledge that disconnected yourself is no longer the solution? I hope so, and that is what I deem as progression.

    As for your kaljug statements, I've never heard it said better! And I will quote you when referring to friends on that arguement lol

    Side note - I don't even know if the above makes sense. It's 5:30am, I've been up all night studying for 2 midterms. Thought I'd take a study break and respond to a few posts.

    Interesting discussion though, keep it safe and moving along =)
     
  13. S|kH

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    There's not been a significant amount of time to recognize if atheistism would lead to similar problems encountered by theistic belief.



    You need to back this statement up. Cite a source. Which democracies went to war with each other? I believe I had read this was never the case, but I will try to find a legitimate source to back up my claim as well...

    Well, I've found the answer. It more relies on how you define "democracy" as it is an open term. I should perhaps say "modern democracy", even that is vague. So, jury is out on this one, we really have no definite statement, and since I was the first to make the assertion, I'll retract my initial statement.



    Just because its the opium of the masses does not make it just. I believe we should still seek the truth. Least to say, I am posting this thread on a philosophical forum, solely for the reason that I believe individuals who read this site are not of the norm and are not just looking to "appease their mind in a temporary state" but to find out the meaning of such actions, life, and history. And by your logic, if something gives happiness to the world, why shouldn't we allow it? Replace religion with any form of man-made substance/drug, and you have the same result. But, then why does religion ban opium, or in our case, Bhang, if it brought happiness to the people around it without effecting other humans? Because, religion believes it destroys that persons mental capability to function and/or is "against the will of God". Well, that is what I believe religion does, it threads into the mental function of a human and theistic belief in its nature results in a submissive human being.

    Supress human nature? Your assuming human nature is the corrupt, evil criminal that we must defeat. This is what I think religion has done -- disconnected you so far into reality and conditioned individuals into thinking that their current reality is full of animals scouring over any materialistic goods (shoot, steal, kill), and if you dont follow it, you can live in the blissful times of the previous ages when this did not go on. Although, this is human nature, and is animal behavior, we have evolved, only due to people who take part in society and force it to progress. Some thinkers eventually stopped submitting to an over authority, and starting creating law and government and punishing people who disrupted society directly, and/or kicked people out who became so detached from society that they no longer helped/worked. Natural selection?

    I don't understand how this ties into to anything related to this thread. Yes, racism is an issue. Any form of division amongst humanity is an issue, race, religion, wealth, class, you name it. Honestly though, its not as economically feasible to simply allow Chinese farmers to settle in the United States as you make it out to seem.
     
  14. S|kH

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    Most actions people claim are done for religious behavior or to "help the poor" are solely done for economic gain. Religious institutions are no different. You've been lied to by every other institution in the WORLD. Government, Financial, Anything, I'm sure you can recall an incident where you have been lied to. What makes you really believe that for some reason the religious institutions have remained untouched for the longest period of time? And, there's LOADS of scientists who do a lot of work for the poor. Your pulling straws here.

    Oh, but what you are doing here is comparing how humans practice it and concluding that their idealogy is the one that is incorrect. In theory, Communist Manifesto is written brilliantly, it just does not allow much room for natural human actions. But, can't we blame this on the people rather than the philosophy and have people continue to try to get this philosophy to work correctly? Wouldn't we call that stupid, if people actually believed Communism would still create a stronghold after the horrendous actions it's done in the past. This is the same things I bring up against religion, but its always the believers who are saying "the philosophy is fine, its the people" "You can not judge the philosophy on how the followers practice it". That is EXACTLY how you are judging Communism, and it makes the most logical sense.


    1) lol, I come to a philosophy forum and now I'm spitting "Anti-religious" propaganda. Man, these are the reasons I strayed away from such sites for a period of 2 years. THIS IS A PHILOSOPHY FORUM. Does everything have to be pro-Sikh to be admissable? I hope this site does not turn into the ridiculous hell-hole {url not allowed} has.

    The sole point of this thread is to provoke thought and intellectual discussion.

    2) Your not big on feminism because your a male who doesn't realize the historical context of the movement and the things you are claiming as "insults".

    3) Sinister, I did deny the positive-ness religion has provided for society because I was making a thread outlining the PROBLEM with it. To call me blissfully ignorant on the polar opposite I feel is a personal attack. I did not wish to write a 100 page paper on the history of religion outlining its positive actions and negative ones. I was summarizing the problem of religion in a modern day context, and why it is no longer suitable.

    Has religion helped humanity reach this point? I would definitely agree. It was a vehicle we used to get here, but the vehicle caused a lot of trouble along the way and no longer works. It's time to make a new ship and continue to progress without tweaking a dead ship that has caused numerous amounts of trouble in the past.

    Religion gives poor people hope, I can not disagree with that. That is one of the main positive things that religion has.

    Most of the things we believe to be true, are lied to us, by these religious institutions. They want your mind. The point of this thread was to atleast liberate it for a minute and to think outside of the box we've all built for ourselves.
     
  15. Sinister

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    You see this is the problem…how you make everything into a wash … and view it as black and white; when it is actually gray. Your limited understanding of the social world leads you to these conclusions.

    Your vanity is apparent at a distance
    And that my friend is the “bitter truth”
    Socialism and Communism were just as important as the Sikh movement.

    Socialism and communism was a response to industrialization. It stopped the polarization of two classes and created a buffer (the middle class). With this task completed its role was destined to diminish and make way for newer and more relevant theories.

    Canada, The US, Germany, The UK, The Netherlands, France are ALL SOCIAL WELFARE STATES (go ahead and look up the meaning) … all have been effected by communism and have some government controlled program of social welfare. Tell me what the democratic party of the US stands for? à A Social welfare STATE. A state that taxes the rich and controls market trends through the monetary banking system.

    This is all attributed to a communist revolution and the rise of the working man to protect himself from the forces of tyranny and bondage! Sound familiar? Doesn’t it sound radically familiar to the Sikh movement?

    Thus you have unions that protect employees and maintain healthy working relations with the owners.

    And who said communism failed? That is by far the most ridiculous statement I have come across. Socialism LIVES in the constitution and political parties of all developed nations.
    Equally I can say the Sikhi has failed….but would that make any sense or be relevant to anything?

    Communism is not about countries or people …. Its about an ideology. Wherever there is economic inequality and exploitation of labor, there will always be a communist present to fight against it. Do communists use force…yes some do … but don’t some Sikhs use force to fight injustice as well? (thus your double standard is exposed)




    Yes the majority feminists are atheists and view religion as largely a tool to suppress them. They believe God is largely a male construct.
    For example a feminist would argue:
    10 guru’s…. all male…and chief architects of the faith…was a woman entirely incapable of carrying a divine message?

    that’s not bitter truth…that’s ignorance…and you seem to be bigot (by choice). No point in further discussion; especially if you haven’t learnt anything from my previous posts.

    Good day sir!
     
  16. Archived_Member1

    Archived_Member1
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    i'm sorry, but i have a hard time believing this allegation (being a Sikh feminist myself :) ) can you please post some sorce for this allegation, or did you just make it up because it happens to fit into your personal world view?
     
  17. Sinister

    Sinister
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    Dear Kelly

    Yes the majority of leading feminist activists and authors are atheist or agnostic. Yes there are non-atheist feminists (say that fast a couple of times) this is not just a magical construct ….its fact.

    The reason why so many exist is because of the oppression of woman in many of the world religions. You will find TREMENDOUS amounts of papers on Christianity and the role of woman, in Islam and Judaism. And you will find them vehemently opposed to the practices of the each and every faith. They usually write from an extremely secular viewpoint. And you will see that they routinely take an extremely polar atheist stance against world religions.

    This is a fact! All you have to do is scroll through some feminist literature on theology.

    Read a book called Feminist Theology by Ursula King to get a better picture of what I mean when I say “the feminist movement was and continues to be an atheist movement!”
    You may also read popular journals like the “Journal of Women's History” only to finds very similar viewpoints. You will also find a vast majority of feminist literature In Atheist journals….scroll through “The Cambridge companion to Atheism” you are bound to find at least 2-3 entries by feminists.

    Membership may vary but the literature is dominated by atheists/agnostics. And the movement was atheist to begin with. Of course there are different groups and sub-divisions within feminism.

    What I find intriguing is your claim of being a feminist. What makes you a feminist?

    Cheers
     
  18. Archived_Member1

    Archived_Member1
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    i agree that many/most religions include oppression of women. this is one of the first things that drew me to sikhism, actually... the fact that the oppression of women which is common in the judeo/christian/islamic tradition is absent in our teachings. :) that and our glorious stories of Mai Bhago and Mata Sundari and others. :D

    however i think you're skipping over the growing number of vocal feminists from every religion who are trying to CHANGE the way people look at women through religion. do a google search on "muslim feminist" and you may be surprised at the number of women who are fighting for their rights within the religion that is probably considered the most oppressive to women.

    why do you say my "claim" to being a feminist? that's kind of an insulting way to put it. i'm a woman, intelligent, in a "men's" world, with a "man's" job, what else can i be? :)

    yes, i suppose that as a sikh, i already believe in the inborn equality of women so maybe there's no need to add "feminist" on there, but i'm american, i was a feminist before i was a sikh, so i guess it's habbit to consider myself one. feminism is a huge and complex topic, i'm not sure how you would like me to define myself so that i fit your notions of feminism, but rest assured, being a man you probably wouldn't understand anyway. :D
     
  19. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    If all these countries are socialists then why the hell cold war was fought between the america and soviet.didn't the main cause of war was capitalist policies of america and socialist policies of soviet.these countries interferred in the affairs of many countries which resulted in deaths of many people.If america and other european countries applied socialist policies then
    What policies did soviet,india and other socialist countries applied so that these countries became bankrupt

    here are some of the statements of wiikipedia

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    As an economic system, socialism is often characterized by socialized (state or community) ownership of the means of production.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Cold War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The United States was the leading superpower of the capitalist west.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    For instance, Winston Churchill during 1945 election campaign famously claimed that: a socialist policy is abhorrent to the British ideas of freedom. Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the object worship of the state. It will prescribe for every one where they are to work, what they are to work at, where they may go and what they may say. Socialism is an attack on the right to breathe freely. No socialist system can be established without a political police. They would have to fall back on some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Its true that some of the elements of socialism influenced these countries but in no way you can say that these countries are socialist economies.

    Communists always see america as greedy capitlist country
    The recent break up of nuclear deal is perfect example of this.It is in much favpur of india and india desperately needs nuclear energy but still the left parties are not allowing this deal because america is demonic capitalist country for them

    majority of economists say so. go to a big discussion forum may be an atheist one and start this debate about communism and then see how many are going to support you.

    After seeing the present condition of sikhs,sikhi you every right to say so i am not going to oppose it.

    Thank you for writing this.This is what i call radical feminism and that's why i am not a big fan of this.I fully support fighting for women rights,fighting against voilence against women etc but this type of feminism is just too much.
    if you want to question sikhism then there are many ways to do it.
    why there was no schedule caste guru,why there was not jat guru, why there was no non punjabi,why all guru were khatri's etc.so to satisfy all these we need atleast 100 guru's

    if someone want to follow sikhism then follow or just leave and create your own religion

    If i am going to change my opinion by reading your 1-2 posts then i must be the biggest
    fool
     
  20. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    forgive me but i don't understand what you are trying to say here.your and mine debate started on the point that THEIST BELEIF ARE ROOTS OF MUCH PROBLEM OF TODAY
    and i just asked you to make a list of world's problems and then describe how many problems are because of religion and how many because of others

    I will try to do research on this and then i will comment

    Please define truth because what is truth for you is not truth for me and what is truth for me is me is not truth for you and if you try to impose your verssion of truth on others then you are no less than a fanatic.

    If i am not wrong majority of things we do is for happiness.Great career, truck load of money,big house ,big cars are some of the examples we all want for happiness.Just because one's happiness lies in material things and others lies in religion's spirituality
    It does not mean that you have right to take it.

    The comparison of religion with bhang is funny.how about comparision of workolichs with alcholics.

    i AM assuming you are thinking about satyug and kalug.I am not talking about satyug or kalyug i am talking about basic human nature of proving superiority over 1 another.jealousy that the other has got everything i have nothing.i don't think these have anything to do have ages

    Pardon me but are you trying to say that law and order and government were created by
    Atheists if yes then it is not true religions too have their system of law and order ex-- sharia of islam

    The above example was to show you that how A simple thing could change the lives of millions.land is most important resource and many asian countries have run out of this
    on the other hand because of colonial era many countries have abundance of it but they will never allow asians to settlle their because of pride in their race ,culture,language,ethinicity etc so how could you blame religion only.
     
  21. harbansj24

    harbansj24
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    I am ordinary person, who is not a granthi etc. I am an simple Engineer.
    I have had many personal experiences which are not miracles but are too numerous too be passed of as "good co- incidences"
    They are intensely personal and so I am unable to describe them here.

    When Tsunami struck about 3 years back there were a spate of articles in news papers regarding existance
    of God .

    The argument roughly went as follows:

    1. If God, the all merciful and powerful exists, then why do disasters
    such as these happen in which "saints" and "sinners" are equally affected?

    2. If it is the result of past Karma then how is it that that it
    affects the entire group at a single location?

    3. If God is not in a position to prevent such Calamities, or creates
    them at his will and pleasure then why should one pray?


    After reading these the following random thoughts came to my mind:

    1. This vast and complex universe would definitely have been triggered
    by a power whether God or what, I dunno. This ultimate truth has been
    investigated for thousand of years, but the solution is nowhere in sight.
    However the bye product of this search have been all the discoveries
    and inventions till date.

    2. Could it not be that God or "that Power" has set up systems which
    occasionally go wrong but with far less frequency than man made systems?
    And is it not possible that just like man tries to take corrective
    action (mostly unsuccessful), the kind hearted, merciful and powerful
    "God" feels a deep sense of remorse, takes very purposeful corrective
    action.

    3. It is a very sobering to know that that in the Tsunami all
    religions, Hindus, Muslims, Christines, Budhists, Jains, Sikhs etc
    have been affected unlike manmade damages which targets only one
    community.

    4. Then why Pray?
    Well do we not try to make contact with influential people or those
    whom we think can help us? And most of the time they dissappoint us.
    But if you try to make contact with God and bring to notice our pains and
    concerns, though sometimes in our perception we will be dissapointed,
    but on quite a few occasions we also succeed. The added advantage is
    that taking God's obligation is quite comfortable but a man's
    obligation is quite humiliating.

    I am sure that many people will have far better and sophisticated
    personal experiences and explanations then the crude style presented here.

    I have not tried to quote from religious texts because my capacity to
    understand them is limited let alone quote them.

    FINALLY IF WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND GOD OR "THAT POWER" COMPLETELY THEN
    OBVIOUSLY WE HAVE TO BECOME ATLEAST EQUAL TO HIM AND WHEN WE ACHIEVE
    THAT, WE WILL BECOME ONE WITH HIM AND THAT WILL BE THE END OF US IN
    OUR PRESENT FORM

    Harbans
     

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