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The Mother of Waahiguroo?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Archived_member2, Aug 14, 2007.

  1. Archived_member2

    Archived_member2
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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
    Dear all!

    Sikhs perhaps know Waahiguroo. May I ask who is the mother of Waahiguroo?


    Balbir Singh
     
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  3. Arvind

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    Balbir ji,

    Mool Mantra has one word "Saibhang"... you may like to pay attention to that!

    Regards, Arvind.
     
  4. Dimitri

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    Is this suppose to be a joke or proper question?
    just a polite inquiry.
     
  5. Archived_member2

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    This is the Sargun Truth of God.
     
  6. spnadmin

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    If you figure that God has hands and a personal guru, then why not imagine that God also has a mother? It all fits together from the perspective of the continuing paradigm.
     
  7. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
    Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!

    Quote "If you figure that God has hands and a personal guru, then why not imagine that God also has a mother? It all fits together from the perspective of the continuing paradigm."
    All my references are from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee. I hope and pray the true Guru inspires all, not the preachers.


    Balbir Singh
     
  8. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    I'm itching to know the answer.
     
  9. spnadmin

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    Veer Begum ji, So am I.

    There are 376 references to the word "mother" in Siri Guru Granth Sahib. However different words are used to refer to "mother" and the context can make the meaning change. This is the case with many eastern languages, including Punjabi and Gurmukhi -- where implication rules.

    All this means is that words say more than the literal translation would state directly. And the literal meaning of a word is likely to change even in casual conversation. Implication is found in every language, but some languages depend on implication more than others, and Sanskrit-based languages like Gurmukhi are at the upper end of implication use. Turkish (in a different language family) is probably the most extreme example of a language where implication is as important as grammar in written and spoken communication.

    So sometimes the word maath is used and makes a comparison to an earthly mother. As on Page 203 Line 10 Raag Gaurhee Bairaagan: Guru Arjan Dev:

    mwq ipqw suq bMDpo qUM myry pRwx ADwr ]

    maath pithaa suth bandhhapo thoon maerae praan adhhaar ||
    You are my mother, father, son and relative; You are the Support of the breath of life.


    Or, sometimes we see a phrase like this, where mother is understood to be the Mother - Soul. Page 226 Line 13 Raag Gaurhee: Guru Nanak Dev:

    nwm ibnw ikau jIvw mwie ]
    naam binaa kio jeevaa maae ||
    Without the Naam, how can I live, O mother?

    And there are other words for mother as well with various meanings.
    In fact someone could write an academic paper about the uses of the word mother in SGGS dev ji, and contribute to the world's understanding of Sikhi.

    Until we know which line you are talking about Baldir ji, the mystery will not be solved.

    BTW - The question, Does God have a brother? would go hand in hand with this discussion. There are 80 references to brother in Siri Guru Granth Sahib, with equally interesting implications.

    Bye for now... and humble apologies to all speakers of Punjabi who could explain the part about implication better than I.


     
  10. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
    Dear all!

    I am curious. Surprisingly I found so many inquisitive seekers.

    Let me try to rebuild the question.
    The word 'Waahiguroo' occurs in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee thirteen times. Only Gayand Jee used the word 'Waahiguroo'. It is to read twelve times on Ang 1402 and once on Ang 1403.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
    वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥
    "vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahi jee-o."
    Waahiguroo Waahiguroo Waahiguroo Waahi Jee-o.

    ਕਵਲ ਨੈਨ ਮਧੁਰ ਬੈਨ ਕੋਟਿ ਸੈਨ ਸੰਗ ਸੋਭ ਕਹਤ ਮਾ ਜਸੋਦ ਜਿਸਹਿ ਦਹੀ ਭਾਤੁ ਖਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
    कवल नैन मधुर बैन कोटि सैन संग सोभ कहत मा जसोद जिसहि दही भातु खाहि जीउ ॥
    "kaval nain maDhur bain kot sain sang sobh kahat maa jasod jisahi dahee bhaat khaahi jee-o." SGGS 1402-12
    Lotus eyes, sweet speech and embellished with millions of companions mother Jasoda says to whom eat curd and rice Jee-o.

    In this wonderful praise of Waahiguroo Gayand Jee is adorning Krishna, the incarnation of the Sustainer, Vishnu with His Attributes.
    My curiosity is to know the Truth. Is Waahiguroo mentioned by Gayand Jee in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is Krishna? Is His mother Jasoda?


    Balbir Singh
     
  11. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    I am also surprised that why are sikhs still alive in this world guru nanak dev ji clearly
    said

    ਜਉ ਤਉ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਖੇਲਣ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ ॥
    जउ तउ प्रेम खेलण का चाउ ॥
    Jao ṯao parėm kẖėlaṇ kā cẖāo.
    If you desire to play this game of love with Me,


    ਸਿਰੁ ਧਰਿ ਤਲੀ ਗਲੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਉ ॥
    सिरु धरि तली गली मेरी आउ ॥
    Sir ḏẖar ṯalī galī mėrī āo.
    then step onto My Path with your head in hand.

    i am sure that sikhs should start cutting their head and should walk on path of sikhis with
    head in their hands
     
  12. spnadmin

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    kds ji

    There should also be many one-eyed Christians -- as Matthew 29 quotes Jesus of Nazareth to say -- if thy eye offend thee, then pluck it out.
     
  13. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
    Dear all and Kds1980 Jee!

    Quote "i am sure that sikhs should start cutting their head and should walk on path of sikhis with
    head in their hands"
    Please explain it. Which word from the referred Vaak is to understand 'cutting'?


    Balbir Singh
     
  14. spnadmin

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    Now we are making progress, now having the page numbers from Sri Guru Granth Sahib dev ji to work with.

    The verse

    kvl nYn mDur bYn koit sYn sMg soB khq mw jsod ijsih dhI Bwqu Kwih jIau ]
    kaval nain madhhur bain kott sain sang sobh kehath maa jasodh jisehi dhehee bhaath khaahi jeeo ||
    You are lotus-eyed, with sweet speech, exalted and embellished with millions of companions. Mother Yashoda invited You as Krishna to eat the sweet rice.

    It is interesting is that Yashoda is the foster mother of Krishna, entrusted to care for the little god. She nourishes him with her friendship and protects him from his tendency to cause trouble – as in running around stealing butter from the neighbors.

    So the verse suggests that we are not talking about a real mother, but a surrogate. Perhaps the verse reminds us that our mother on earth is also a surrogate. Yashoda has been entrusted to nourish and raise up the godliness of Krishna. So now in return, she invites the You the Creator to eat sweet rice. In other words, she is giving a sweet gift to Waheguru.

    The phrase she invites You as Krishna does not mean Waheguru is the same as Krishna. It means Yashoda is making a sweet offering to Waheguru, just as she offered sweets to Krishna. The entire shabad is in praise of Waheguru.

    Conclusion: Yashoda is not portrayed as the mother of Waheguru in this particular scenario.

    :)
     
  15. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
    Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!

    Thanks for your post.
    The first Vaak of this Sabad says "Waahiguroo Waahiguroo Waahiguroo Waahi Jee-o."
    The next Vaak of the same Sabad says "kahat maa jasod jisahi" mother Jasoda says to whom.
    Please explain it. From where the word 'Krishna' has come in the mind of the translator?

    Quote "So the verse suggests that we are not talking about a real mother, but a surrogate."
    May I ask which words of the verse suggest that?

    Quote "It is interesting is that Yashoda is the foster mother of Krishna, entrusted to care for the little god."
    Perhaps some have come to know little God and the mother as Forster. I find HIM always Great.

    Quote "Conclusion: Yashoda is not portrayed as the mother of Waheguru in this particular scenario."
    May I ask? Gayand Jee portrayed Yashoda as the mother of Whose in this particular scenario?


    Balbir Singh
     
  16. Astroboy

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    (1402-11)
    sava-ee-ay mahlay cha-uthay kay 4
    Swaiyas In Praise Of The Fourth Mehl:
    vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahi jee-o.
    Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o.
    kaval nain maDhur bain kot sain sang sobh kahat maa jasod jisahi dahee bhaat khaahi jee-o.
    You are lotus-eyed, with sweet speech, exalted and embellished with millions of companions. Mother Yashoda invited You as Krishna to eat the sweet rice.
    daykh roop at anoop moh mahaa mag bha-ee kinknee sabad jhanatkaar khayl paahi jee-o.
    Gazing upon Your supremely beautiful form, and hearing the musical sounds of Your silver bells tinkling, she was intoxicated with delight.
    kaal kalam hukam haath kahhu ka-un mayt sakai ees bamm-yu ga-yaan Dhayaan Dharat hee-ai chaahi jee-o.
    Death's pen and command are in Your hands. Tell me, who can erase it? Shiva and Brahma yearn to enshrine Your spiritual wisdom in their hearts.
    sat saach saree nivaas aad purakh sadaa tuhee vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahi jee-o. ||1||6||
    You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||1||6||


    Yasoda was Krishna's earthly mother. Krishna isn't God or Waheguru. This is where your understanding flawed. You assumed that Krishna was Waheguru. If you take the whole shabad as above, you will clearly see the picture instead of only one or two pieces of the puzzle.
     
  17. Astroboy

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  18. spnadmin

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    Begum ji

    "Yasoda was Krishna's earthly mother. Krishna isn't God or Waheguru. This is where your understanding flawed. You assumed that Krishna was Waheguru. If you take the whole shabad as above, you will clearly see the picture instead of only one or two pieces of the puzzle."

    Thanks Begum ji, That is the point entirely. If it were not, the Sikhism would be one more example of a polytheistic religion -- which it is not.
    Shiva and Brahma yearn to enshrine Your spiritual wisdom in their hearts. They yearn to merge into the One - Waheguru. And I had a picture of Kashoda pushing Krishna on a swing but can't figure out how to upload images.

    So the picture is great and also makes the point: We don't have pictures of Waheguru for obvious reasons. Anyway, the shabad stands on its own as a exquisite poetry. Are we not fortunate to have religious teaching that is also magnificent poetry?

     
  19. spnadmin

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    Balbir ji

    Nanaak dev ji knew the story of Yashoda perfectly well because it comes from the Indic record. Should be corrected to indicate that it was the Bhatts, and not Nanaak, who were drawing on the Vendantic tradition in composing this shabad. It is a charming story of a mother's unrelenting and unconditional love and friendship for her "son". The choice of Yashoda is in fact perfect as a poetic image.

    The story doesn't come from Guru ji. It comes from the Vedantic tradition. Yashoda was entrusted by Vishnu with the care of Krishna -- who was a panga-master from childhood. Yashoda was never able to accept the Oneness of God. So, Krishna tormented her with childish pranks, like stealing butter. But she never relented in her love for him.

    The image
    Yashoda represents the yearning to love God in an earthly form on the earthly plane in an earthly way. She is so close -- Gazing upon Your supremely beautiful form, and hearing the musical sounds of Your silver bells tinkling, she was intoxicated with delight. But she is not quite there -- she is the image of our imperfect love. Still lost in duality.

    My imperfect understanding.:)
     
    #18 spnadmin, Aug 16, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 17, 2007
  20. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
    Dear all Begum Jee!

    Quote "Yasoda was Krishna's earthly mother. Krishna isn't God or Waheguru. This is where your understanding flawed. You assumed that Krishna was Waheguru. If you take the whole shabad as above, you will clearly see the picture instead of only one or two pieces of the puzzle."

    The word Waahiguroo occurs in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee in the Hymns from Gayand Jee. He is praising Waahiguroo with the Attributes of Vishnu and His incarnations.
    Another source of the word Waahiguroo is the poetry from Bhai Gurdas Jee. He also suggests that the source of this word were the combination of the first letters of the four incarnations of Vishnu. Is it not so?

    The search should now go on why preachers have entitled this word Waahiguroo for the Supreme Lord above all?
    The reverend Gurus never spoke or wrote the word Waahiguru nor they called it Gurumantra? At least I have not found it up to now.

    **************

    Quote from Aad002 Jee "So the picture is great and also makes the point: We don't have pictures of Waheguru for obvious reasons."
    No Hindu could convince me if the pictures of their Gods are true photographs or paintings. Also, no Sikh could convince me why they have imaginary paintings of their Gurus they treat as Gods.


    Balbir Singh
     
  21. Arvind

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    Somehow this complete thread and ongoing discussion surprises me that how people get hold of one word and make a chutney out of that.

    So the discussion is leading to that Krishan is Waheguru, and Yashoda ji is her mother.... I am all wowww (!!!) at this. These sound like perfect examples of brainwashing to me. Therefore I dont think I will participate in this discussion.

    Care to ponder over:
    Mai na Ganeshe Pratham manau
    Kishan bishan kab hu na dhiaoo
    kaan sunai pehchaan na tin so
    liv laagi mori pag in so...
     
    #20 Arvind, Aug 16, 2007
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2007

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