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Controversial The legendary Ganga Sagar: An investigation of its structure and properties

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Caspian, Oct 3, 2010.

  1. Caspian

    Caspian
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    I haven't posted in a few months :p my last post got wayyyyy tooo hectic, I couldn't keep up with it in all honesty. But now onto the Ganga Sagar

    There's a reason why I opted to put this thread in the "controversies" section. But that's simply because I believe its a fraud. I know of a great deal many more Sikhs who believe it to be the real deal, and treat it as "proof" of the divine.

    For all of you who don't know what it is, here's a good link that covers its history and what it is becuase I wont be going into that:

    http://www.chicsikh.com/article-detail.php?id=669&cat=12

    Now that were all caught up to speed about it. I would love to hear your opinions on it. I'm mostly wondering if there are any sikhs who share my opinion? Cuz coming from an atheist, it wouldnt mean much to the majority of the sikh community. But again, do any of you sikhs consider it to be a fraud? If so, why? and If not... why? :p

    Looking forward to the conversation.

    [​IMG]<embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://static.pbsrc.com/flash/input.swf" style="" id="IMG-code" bgcolor="transparent" quality="high" name="IMG-code" wmode="transparent" allowfullscreen="true" swliveconnect="true" allowscriptaccess="always" flashvars="ipt=%5BIMG%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fi183.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fx89%2Fbaani00%2FAfter%2520wedding%2Ff9b8.jpg%5B%2FIMG%5D&trk=image_code_click_MEDIADETAIL_IMG&width=175&height=21&color=#000000&border=#BDBDBD&cont=IMGContainer" height="21" width="175">
    <embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://static.pbsrc.com/flash/input.swf" style="" id="IMG-code" bgcolor="transparent" quality="high" name="IMG-code" wmode="transparent" allowfullscreen="true" swliveconnect="true" allowscriptaccess="always" flashvars="ipt=%5BIMG%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fi183.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fx89%2Fbaani00%2FAfter%2520wedding%2Ff9b8.jpg%5B%2FIMG%5D&trk=image_code_click_MEDIADETAIL_IMG&width=175&height=21&color=#000000&border=#BDBDBD&cont=IMGContainer" height="21" width="175">
     
    #1 Caspian, Oct 3, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2010
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  3. spnadmin

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    In addition to being a chronicle of a Muslim family with ancient ties to Sikhism and a part of Punjab that has immense historical significance, this is a story of reverence for many things, and not a story about a magic trick.

    I have read this story before, and the humanity is what is most striking to me. This paragraph IMHO captures the core idea about the sagar that is pierced with so many holes:

    In Melbourne, when someone announced at a gurdwara that "he was about to demonstrate" this to the public, Azizullah was quick to point out respectfully that "I'm not here to demonstrate or prove anything. In fact, if people are merely curious to see whether the urn retains water or not, I prefer not to show it to them, let alone pour water into the Ganga Sagar in front of them. I don't do this to satisfy people's curiosity, its just for the followers of the Guru to commune with an object that he once held in his precious hands."
     
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  4. Caspian

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    I guess what I'm trying to say is more along the lines of... alright, it retains water, but do you believe it retains this water because of the fact that it is, perhaps, divinely bless by Guru Gobind Singh Ji ? Or do you believe that it retains this water because something else must be going on...

    For example, if I brought fourth a jug, that looks like the Ganga Sagar and retains water (as he has demonstrated numerous times) but also retains milk (as some stories like to mention) and lets sand pass through its holes (something he doesn't demonstrate but is also attributed to the Ganga Sagar). If I had a seemingly identical jug with those three identical properties except the only difference between my jug and the Ganga Sagar is that you know for a fact that mine was not a divine relic... does that, in some way, throw some doubt onto the ganga sagar story? Cuz as it stands right now, the ganga sagar is unique in that its only jug in the world with said propeties.

    But if someone brought fourth a jug that had all the properties of the ganga sagar. I have trouble picturing any sikh suggest that "it doesnt matter if the ganga sagar retains its water through worldly means—its about the humanity of the story." Because in my opinion, the humanity of the story takes a turn for the worst if the ganga sagar is shown to be a fraud, then its simply profiteering of a gullible public.
     
    #3 Caspian, Oct 3, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2010
  5. Caspian

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    By the way, for the people who havent seen the demonstration of the ganga sagar in person, but have heard the stories, heres a few videos about it.

    <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6I8BBjQi4hM?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6I8BBjQi4hM?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

    This is the most recent video I could find, dated feb 2010.

    <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zxpWoPngMr0?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zxpWoPngMr0?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

    <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/94yChVY9rTI?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/94yChVY9rTI?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

    These last two videos are taken from the same gurdwara in 2009 but show two diff angels. the videos actually overlap at a certain point in time, see if u can catch it. :p
     
  6. spnadmin

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    What do you believe, Caspian ji?

    p/s The story from SikhChic has a perspective that is focused on reverence. Some people have an instinct to search for miracles. Can anyone really talk them out of it?
     
  7. Caspian

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    I know, whole-heartedly, that its a fraud (i cant stress this enough, the design of the jug is so obvious to me, that i'm surprised no one has realized this before and made countless jugs with the same properties). I'm in the process of building a "too scale" model that has those three exact properties (if anyone has scale pictures of the ganga sagar, i'd greatly appreciate it if I could get my hands on them :p)

    The hardest part is not figuring out exactly how it works (and i know exactly how it works based on the above youtube videos) but rather making my scale model "look" like the ganga sagar. (I'm no metal smith and i only want to build it using supplies available to them in the 16-17th century).

    I've made a tin-can replica at about 1/5 the size and showed it to my siblings and parents (much to their surprise because it actually works better then the original ganga-sagar). I want to go full scale and hopefully put it on youtube. But if im right about the Ganga-Sagar's design (in my youtube video I will explain indetail why and how i know its design) then only a few possibilities exist regarding its status as a reverred object

    Either:

    A) The muslim family has been conning the entire sikh community for the past 300 years. With a dubious story and a cleverly design jug

    or

    B) Guru Gobind Singh Ji tried to pass off a "not-so-sacred" jug as a "sacred" jug.

    Forgive me for any offence I might have caused. But if I was to upload that video to youtube, of my replica Ganga Sagar, is it something that would peek ur interest? Or is ur faith in the "original" unshakeable? < That question goes out to anyone whos interested in the Ganga Sagar. I would love to know whether or not you guys would like to see my scale model? Or if you guys would rather pass me off as a crackpot :p
     
  8. spnadmin

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    Caspian ji

    I keep gently trying to steer you in a different direction as far as your comments are concerned. Trying to get you to acknowledge other possibilities in the actions of the Muslim family. Implicitly I have been asking you if perhaps the "magic trick" -- you keep returning to (not even 1/10th of the story) -- is something being promoted by people other than the Muslim family or Guru Gobind Singh. And you have been resisting!

    So, yes, you are being extremely offensive. Certainly as long as you attach motivations to individuals (Muslim family, Guru Gobind Singh) o prop up a different agenda. We know there are no "sacred" relics in Sikhism which have "magical" properties. Nor does the title of the SikhChic article present the story as if that were true. SikhChic has titled the story, "Ganga Sagar: history, legend devotion." You have chosen a misleading title for this thread.

    Why don't you explore your real agenda with us? If it turns out to be disrespectful you can be sure there will be protests and you will get a lot of attention. :happykaur:
     
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  9. Caspian

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    My Agenda?

    I feel compelled to get the sikh community to think "critically" instead of simply believing in things (like the Ganga Sagar) on the basis of blind faith alone. During my research into the ganga sagar on the internet, I came across quotes by members of a different sikh oriented websites ( like {url not allowed} or something) which I found alarming.

    One member suggests:

    "Lets wake up again. The vessel should absolutely not be tested to see it it will hold milk or water. The value of the tale is in its mystery. After we find out that the vessel leaks it will become just another fake. Be assured that if it has real holes in it and is not a trick vessel, it will not hold a liquid."

    Another fellow, in response to a more critically minded sikh (who said he thought the ganga sagar was a fraud) says:

    "so I suppose there is no God either since we can't see him? :roll: Not a believer in blind faith i see. I suppose Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh never even existed then either."

    Its the above kind of mentality that i've focused my agenda on. I'm not accusing you of being similarily narrow minded (although the last sentance of yours combined with the emotican makes you seem rather passive agressive). But I am accusing the sikh community at large of having adopted a culture of blind-faith and ignorance. And thats why i say what I say, the sikh community needs a reality check.

    By the way this is the controversy section isnt it? I dont feel like i have grossly mistated the title of this thread considering the section I put it in. Everything i said, and even the title of this thread is up for debate. I look forward to your "protests"
     
  10. spnadmin

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    Since Caspian ji you want to explore the science or lack of it in this historical vessel, and wake the Sikh quom up to the possibility of a magic trick, then the title of the thread needs to be changed. :)

    Especially since within a gurmat understanding of Sikhi there can be neither sacred relics to venerate, nor is magic taken to be spiritually meaningful.


    BTW how did you survey the Sikh community scientifically in order to know what the "Sikh community at large" believes.
     
  11. Caspian

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    I agree with you when you say that "Within a gurmat understanding of Sikhi there can be neither sacred relics to venerate, nor is magic taken to be spiritually meaningful"

    However, I also recognize that the "gurmat" understanding is lost on the average/majority of the sikh community

    I feel there is no need to survey the sikh community at large when you live in the midst of a large sikh community that routinely makes claims of supernatural intervention when for example:

    1) Guru Granth Sahib happens to be untouched by Flames that almost burned down a Khalsa School. (http://www.{url not allowed}/news/bir-survives-suspicious-fire-khalsa-school)

    "Its a miracle" says Rina Kaur Chawla

    2) The best way to finally move abroad from India is to donate a toy plane to your local Gurdwara ( http://thelangarhall.com/india/the-power-of-toy-planes/ )

    "I am sure there was a connection. He had been trying for years but his visa came through just weeks after my offering. When I told my relatives, they too came with planes to make the same offering,” said Atwal.

    3) When due to a police "mistake" a known terrorist avoids a guilty plea for his involvement in the Air India Bombing, it's claimed that God "had his back" throughout the trial and facilitated the events that lead to his acquittal

    4) When it appears that muslim men may be targeting sikh women for conversion. The sikh majority reacts by suggesting women shouldnt be allowed out with non-sikh men, and that muslims are using "black magic" to seduce their women, and that a daily dose of nitnam will help protect them against the evil powers of islam. (http://sikhsandislam.blogspot.com/)

    "Muslims even use black magic to try and convert people. So don't take anything object, food, gift from a Muslim!" - Says Jaspreet Kaur Sandhu

    5) I live amidst a community where the majority of the youth have no knowledge of sikhi. But love the food, dance and warrior culture :) and on those merits alone, they believe the sikh religion is the best religion. This warrior culture contributes significantly to the recruitment of young sikh men intro drug dealing. (http://thelangarhall.com/general/did-i-mention-i-like-sikh-t-shirts/)

    [​IMG]
    Lol, they look like a wannabe gang dont they?
    My personal favourite t-shirt quote is "sikh and destroy" lol

    6) The Ganga Sagar attracts a ridiculous amount of people who come to "worship" the jug. There have been reports of women giving their jewelry away, or the gurdwara selling the water they used to fill the Ganga Sagar as a kind of "amrit." I know on a personal level that one man who took a picture of the Ganga Sagar sells it for $20 a piece on vasakhi day, and people gladly buy it (hell I had to buy it the other day to get a proper scale representation of the jug for my model).

    7) A bloody brawl breaks out in the middle of a Langar Hall over the inclusion of chairs and tables. Even if chairs and tables are against sikhi—somehow the bloody brawl isnt?

    8 )<object height="385" width="480">


    <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/yscyY4npRKg?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="385" width="480"></object>

    W/e the hell this is?

    Albeit, this isnt a "proper" scientific survey of the sikh population to make truly generalized assumptions. But I think I'm allowed to make generalizations based on these series of events/anecdotes. The sikh people almost pride themselves on their ignorance. The more ignorant the better (its seen as having an almost complete faith in god when ur as ignorant as the above people can be). And furthermore, merely bringing up a diseenting viewpoints is so vehemently looked down upon, its almost as if they suspect the dissenter of practicing witchcraft.
     
  12. spnadmin

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    Caspian ji

    For now I am not going to take the time to edit and reply in line, even though you have topped yourself in terms of insults and gross generalizations.

    Arguing from the particular to the general case without unbiased sampling methods leads to a lot of fallacious conclusions. What sampling method did you use?

    And since average and majority are statistical terms, and based on sample size, what was the size of the sample that led you to your conclusions?

    Your commentary has turned out to be what I call "high maintenance" participation, because either I or some other member of the moderation team will need to edit your comments surgically to remove insults, and/or field angry private messages from other forum members.

    I am now giving you an official warning.

    Please get on with your main ideas which had/have something to do with the experiment you are planing to conduct and to tell us about. If you are basically finished with that, let me know. Otherwise, what is the point of continuing with a diatribe against the Sikh community?
     
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