The Gursikh Project On Reincarnation!

[ax0547]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

Khalsa Ji, I see this forum full of intellectual Gursikhs and I would like to use this opportunity to discuss and in effect gain knowledge through Gurbani. Specifically, I would like that all of us collaborate together with a commitment to finish the project. The project is on the topic of REINCARNATION on the bases of other related theories like KARMA, HELL/HEAVEN, (ANY ADDITIONIONAL YOU CAN COME UP WITH). I have already gone through the old threads on this topic and realized that there was no conclusion reached. Certainly, it should not to be so for this thread. The whole point of this thread is to reach a conclusion that would benefit not only us, but all others as well. Therefore, we should be constructive toward our goal throughout the project. PLEASE REFRAIN FROM BASING A CLAIM ON FAITH (Faith simply put, is dependent on knowledge. For example, if I ask you for 1 grand you would think more deeply before handing it over, whereas if it was your father you would care more/less based on the prior knowledge and therefore have relative faith.)
We will complete this project in Stage wise manner

1. Commit yourself to this project.
   1. Your Name/ID
   2. Expertise in studies
      1. Specific subjects that you have good knowledge on
         1. Chemistry….
         2. Philosophy…
   3. Decide the limit on time for before starting each step
      1. 7 days for step ONE (preliminary decision – open for suggestions)
         1. Can break down each step further for time limit.
   4. Last two days should always be used to conclude with a precise result of each step.
2. Come up with a precise definition of each of the theories we want to discuss.
   1. This definition should not base on Gurbani, but on the basis of outside sources that a normal person would get. E.g. Dictionaries ….
      1. There is a common perception that a new person to this theory would have based on common sources like dictionaries
      2. Also, we should define each theory precisely.
         1. E.g. does reincarnation theory include both non-living and living or just one of these? (More important questions are welcomed and needed)
3. Compare these theories with common scientific knowledge.
   1. The point here is not that science IS better than Gurbani, please do not take it as such.
      1. Actually, we could use the known knowledge to support our Gurbani for newcomers to Sikhi.
      2. Even if scientific knowledge is in contrast, that would mean there “could” something word in our interpretation of Gurbani in the fourth step.
      3. Certainly scientific theories can be wrong, but there are some old and established theories that are now regarded as facts, therefore science is not always wrong/bad.
4. Read Gurbani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, starting from page one.
   1. We should choose those verses that are related to topic or provide insight into it.
   2. Comparison of our definition of the theories with Gurbani is the point of this thread.
5. Conclude precisely.
   1. Is the definition same as in Gurbani.
      1. If not then our Gurbani’s theory should be named differently
      2. ……..

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

 

[ax0547]

Step ONE :Your Name/ID Expertise in studiesDecide the limit on time for Step One ans Two7 days for step ONE (preliminary decision – open for suggestions)

 

[spnadmin]

ax0547 ji

It is commendable that you want to look at reincarnation in a systematic way. And, yes, frustrating when conversations ramble and wind and get off topic never to reach closure. However that is the nature of an Internet forum.

Personally, I will participate in this discussion -- it is of great interest to me. And to the extent possible will try to follow your format.

However, one or two things I need to point out as mod/leader.

It is impossible to ask forum members to stay within your guidelines. There are no forum rules to require them to do that. Let's see how far we get with the discussion. If people get off topic then one or other of the mod/leaders will bring the discussion back on track and not let it wander.

Some people may want to speak to one or more of the points in your outline but not the entire outline. So let's let them do that. The forum has to permit some freedom of choice as we are not in a classroom with assignments but we are learners who devote what time we have.

And Last, sometime people are reluctant to use their real names or to identify themselves speicifically f or good reasons -- the state of the world, Internet stalking, identity theft, etc. So forum members need to decide whether to identify themselves. Leave it up to them.

Having said all of this. Thanks so much for this great project. :happy:

 

[ax0547]

That would be a great help to keep the project on route. Also I would hope poeple are educated enough to follow the path that we won't have to reroute. On the other hand I want input from all of you to change and make the guidleines better - its a collaborative project. Also no need for real name ( certainy mine is not) It is just to identify people who want to participate from start to end, so that others may wait in the required time before moving onto next step.I am crossing my fingers so that people come in join in this project!

 

[spnadmin]

Ji

Thanks for taking my suggestions in good humor. Right now I have the flu and can barely see the computer screen. Only short trips to the forum can I do. Later tonight I will help by writing something and also pm some members who have written a lot about this topic so that they take a look and offer what they can. It should be a good thread.

 

[spnadmin]

axji

To start the discussion, I would like to begin with this part of a shabad from Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj. Then attempt some of your other questions.


ਚਉਥੈ ਪਹਰੈ ਰੈਣਿ ਕੈ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਚਲਣ ਵੇਲਾ ਆਦੀ ॥
chouthhai peharai rain kai vanajaariaa mithraa har chalan vaelaa aadhee ||
In the fourth watch of the night, O my merchant friend, the Lord announces the time of departure.

ਕਰਿ ਸੇਵਹੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਣਜਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾ ਸਭ ਚਲੀ ਰੈਣਿ ਵਿਹਾਦੀ ॥
kar saevahu pooraa sathiguroo vanajaariaa mithraa sabh chalee rain vihaadhee ||
Serve the Perfect True Guru, O my merchant friend; your entire life-night is passing away.


ਹਰਿ ਸੇਵਹੁ ਖਿਨੁ ਖਿਨੁ ਢਿਲ ਮੂਲਿ ਨ ਕਰਿਹੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਅਸਥਿਰੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਹੋਵਹੁ ॥
har saevahu khin khin dtil mool n karihu jith asathhir jug jug hovahu ||
Serve the Lord each and every instant-do not delay! You shall become eternal throughout the ages.


ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਸਦ ਮਾਣਹੁ ਰਲੀਆ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਦੁਖ ਖੋਵਹੁ ॥
har saethee sadh maanahu raleeaa janam maran dhukh khovahu ||
Enjoy ecstasy forever with the Lord, and do away with the pains of birth and death.


ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਸੁਖਾਂਦੀ ॥
gur sathigur suaamee bhaedh n jaanahu jith mil har bhagath sukhaandhee ||
Know that there is no difference between the Guru, the True Guru, and your Lord and Master. Meeting with Him, take pleasure in the Lord's devotional service.


ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਚਉਥੈ ਪਹਰੈ ਸਫਲਿਓ*ੁ ਰੈਣਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਦੀ ॥੪॥੧॥੩॥
kahu naanak praanee chouthhai peharai safalio rain bhagathaa dhee ||4||1||3||
Says Nanak, O mortal, in the fourth watch of the night, the life-night of the devotee is fruitful. ||4||1||3||

This lyrical passage from the Guru is in SriRaag on Ang 77. It is part of a longer shabad that takes us through understanding the 4 watches of the night (each watch 3 hours of darkness). I am starting with the last, and the 4th watch, for a reason. It is important to keep the end in mind. Everything else leads up to the end, in one's earthly existence and in one's spiritual path.

One can read this shabad at the literal level and understand it as the passage of the soul at the end of lfe. What happens after one dies? Or one can read it as a spiritual statement of how the end of the false self transpires and what happens then. Nanak says -- then the life-night of the devotee is fruitful. I take this to mean that the inner light is born in the deepest darkness, when the consciousness of ego falls away.

You asked about my expertise. I have none in this area other than continual reading of Guruji and consultation with as many of those Sikhs who share their understanding.

Reincarnation refers to the passage of the soul from one stage of being to the next. This in the vedantic traditions most typically refers to the return of the soul to earthly existence in the bodily form of a new life. The soul of the departed returns to live in the shell of another person.

When one has not traded with the True Merchant and has not enshrined the light of His Name within one's heart -- then one is not freed from the cycle of life and death.

But think also of the shabad above. The death of the self, of the false self, of Haumei, also results in reincarnation, rebirth, and the soul inhabits the heart and the person is renewed. There is a new connection.

Reincarnation is a difficult subject and in my humble opinion simplistic approaches to its meaning only lead to a narrow understanding of the Guru. I have much more work to do.

 

[ax0547]

These are some of the common encyclopedias that people use to find the definition of Reincarnation!

According to Wikipedia.com

Reincarnation, literally "to be made flesh again", is a doctrine or metaphysical belief that some essential part of a living being (in some variations only human beings) survives death to be reborn in a new body. This essential part is often referred to as the spirit or soul, the "higher" or "true" self, "divine spark", or "I". According to such beliefs, a new personality is developed during each life in the physical world, but some part of the self remains constant throughout the successive lives.[1]
Britannica Concise Encyclopedia: reincarnation

Doctrine of the rebirth of the soul in one or more successive existences, which may be human, animal, or vegetable. Belief in reincarnation is characteristic of Asian religions, especially Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, and Sikhism. All hold to the doctrine of karma, the belief that actions in this life will have their effect in the next. In Hinduism, a person may be freed from the cycle of birth and rebirth only by reaching a state of enlightenment. Likewise in Buddhism, discipline and meditation may enable a seeker to reach nirvana and escape the wheel of birth and rebirth. Manichaeism and Gnosticism accepted the concept of reincarnation, as do such modern spiritual movements as Theosophy.

Buddhism Dictionary: reincarnation
Term generally avoided by writers on Buddhism since it implies the existence of an immortal soul (ātman) that is periodically incarnated in a fleshly host, a notion more proper to Hinduism. By contrast, Buddhism denies the existence of an immortal soul and does not accept the dualistic opposition between spirit and matter it presupposes. Accordingly, the English term preferred by Buddhist writers to designate the dynamic and constantly changing continuity of the individual from one life to the next is ‘rebirth’. Neither this term nor ‘reincarnation’ has a direct Sanskrit equivalent, and Indian sources speak instead of ‘rebecoming’ (Sanskrit, punarbhava) or ‘repeated death’ (Sanskrit, punarmṛtyu).
Columbia Encyclopedia: reincarnation
(rē'ĭnkärnā'shən) [Lat.,=taking on flesh again], occupation by the soul of a new body after the death of the former body. Beliefs vary as to whether the soul assumes the new body immediately or only after an interval of disembodiment. Although some religions teach that it may inhabit a higher or lower form of life, most believe that the soul is consistently reincarnated in the same species. See transmigration of souls.

Occultism & Parapsychology Encyclopedia: Reincarnation
The return to a new corporeal life of a soul (the incorporeal true self) that had previously been embodied and passed through bodily death. The idea of reincarnation—that the soul passes through a series of embodiments—stands in contrast to the dominant Western Christian idea of a single corporeal embodiment followed by resurrection (reunion of the soul with a spiritual body) and life with God in heaven. Reincarnation is often associated with, but is not necessarily connected with, transmigration, the idea that at death the soul might pass into the body of an animal, a plant, or even an inanimate object such as a stone. The belief in reincarnation was tied to moral categories in ancient religions, especially the Eastern concept of karma, which viewed the present life as the working out of consequences from previous lives. Future embodiments will also be determined by the consequences of this present life. One must remove oneself from the realm of consequences through spiritual activity or be stuck in the endless cycle of reincarnation forever. The belief in a form of reincarnation is fundamental to both Hinduism and Buddhism and had some popularity in the ancient Mediterranean basin. Pythagoras, for example, claimed that he was Euphorbus in a previous existence. In modern times, reincarnation has spread in the West through the efforts of French Spiritism and Theosophy.

 

[ax0547]

According to Wikipedia.com

Reincarnation, literally "to be made flesh again", is a doctrine or metaphysical belief that some essential part of a living being (in some variations only human beings) survives death to be reborn in a new body. This essential part is often referred to as the spirit or soul, the "higher" or "true" self, "divine spark", or "I". According to such beliefs, a new personality is developed during each life in the physical world, but some part of the self remains constant throughout the successive lives.[1]
According to this definition reincarnation as to have two parts -:
1. Be born as flesh again.
2. Soul, the “true self” is reborn into the flesh.
3. New personality, but some part of self remains constant.
Now being born as flesh is part of the definition itself, but could the constant part be the “true self” that remains true i.e. constant is to think about!
Britannica Concise Encyclopedia: reincarnation

Doctrine of the rebirth of the soul in one or more successive existences, which may be human, animal, or vegetable. Belief in reincarnation is characteristic of Asian religions, especially Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, and Sikhism. All hold to the doctrine of karma, the belief that actions in this life will have their effect in the next. In Hinduism, a person may be freed from the cycle of birth and rebirth only by reaching a state of enlightenment. Likewise in Buddhism, discipline and meditation may enable a seeker to reach nirvana and escape the wheel of birth and rebirth. Manichaeism and Gnosticism accepted the concept of reincarnation, as do such modern spiritual movements as Theosophy.
This definition explains that reincarnation is dependent on our Karma. This is how it is said in Sikhism too and that state of enlightenment is needed to get rid of it.
1. Karma, defection needed!
2. Enlightenment, definition needed!
Buddhism Dictionary: reincarnation
Term generally avoided by writers on Buddhism since it implies the existence of an immortal soul (ātman) that is periodically incarnated in a fleshly host, a notion more proper to Hinduism. By contrast, Buddhism denies the existence of an immortal soul and does not accept the dualistic opposition between spirit and matter it presupposes. Accordingly, the English term preferred by Buddhist writers to designate the dynamic and constantly changing continuity of the individual from one life to the next is ‘rebirth’. Neither this term nor ‘reincarnation’ has a direct Sanskrit equivalent, and Indian sources speak instead of ‘rebecoming’ (Sanskrit, punarbhava) or ‘repeated death’ (Sanskrit, punarmṛtyu).

Well this makes it clear that Buddhists think that soul is not immortal, and that matter and soul are not dualistic but different entities! A presupposition! And therefore reincarnation is not the best term for this! Acceptable.
Occultism & Parapsychology Encyclopedia: Reincarnation
The return to a new corporeal life of a soul (the incorporeal true self) that had previously been embodied and passed through bodily death. The idea of reincarnation—that the soul passes through a series of embodiments—stands in contrast to the dominant Western Christian idea of a single corporeal embodiment followed by resurrection (reunion of the soul with a spiritual body) and life with God in heaven. Reincarnation is often associated with, but is not necessarily connected with, transmigration, the idea that at death the soul might pass into the body of an animal, a plant, or even an inanimate object such as a stone. The belief in reincarnation was tied to moral categories in ancient religions, especially the Eastern concept of karma, which viewed the present life as the working out of consequences from previous lives. Future embodiments will also be determined by the consequences of this present life. One must remove oneself from the realm of consequences through spiritual activity or be stuck in the endless cycle of reincarnation forever. The belief in a form of reincarnation is fundamental to both Hinduism and Buddhism and had some popularity in the ancient Mediterranean basin. Pythagoras, for example, claimed that he was Euphorbus in a previous existence. In modern times, reincarnation has spread in the West through the efforts of French Spiritism and Theosophy.

Acoording to this -:
1. Karma plays a role possibly.
2. Could be animate, inanimate or plants.
3. Transmigrations, definition needed!

 

[ax0547]

· 1. Be born as flesh again.
2. Soul, the “true self” is reborn into the flesh.
3. New personality, but some part of self remains constant.
· 1. Karma, defection needed!
2. Enlightenment, definition needed!
· 1. Karma plays a role possibly.
2. Could be animate, inanimate or plants.
3. Transmigrations, definition needed!
· Is soul Immoratal vs mortal and dualist vs non dualist?
This is my personal point of view, but soul when compared to present day definition of energy seems to be energy that our body holds and eats to have throughout life. Soul might not be just energy but includes it as there is very high probability that even energy has an underlying cause.
Definition: Energy is the capacity of a physical system to perform work. Energy exists in several forms such as heat, kinetic or mechanical energy, light, potential energy, electrical, or other forms.
According to the law of conservation of energy, the total energy of a system remains constant, though energy may transform into another form. Two billiard ***** colliding, for example, may come to rest, with the resulting energy becoming sound and perhaps a bit of heat at the point of collision.

 

[ax0547]

Now we will start looking at Gurbani Shabads from page one.

We will see shabads that give insight in working of "Karma", is effect on reincarnationa nd transmigration. as well were does enlightenment come into play. How is soul defined.

1 Karma
2 Soul
3 Transmigration
4 Enlightenment
5 Reincarnation

The gurbani quotes should only be in gurmukhi and no translations please at first.

 

[ax0547]

I am going to get Gurbani from SriGranth.org, but the tranlation I think are kind of biased, so just gurmukhi!

 

[ax0547]

ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

॥ ਜਪੁ ॥

ਆਦਿ ਸਚੁ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਸਚੁ ॥

ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥੧॥

ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥

ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ ॥

ਭੁਖਿਆ ਭੁਖ ਨ ਉਤਰੀ ਜੇ ਬੰਨਾ ਪੁਰੀਆ ਭਾਰ ॥

ਸਹਸ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਤ ਇਕ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥

ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ ॥

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥

ਹੁਕਮੀ ਹੋਵਨਿ ਆਕਾਰ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਕਹਿਆ ਜਾਈ ॥

ਹੁਕਮੀ ਹੋਵਨਿ ਜੀਅ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥

ਹੁਕਮੀ ਉਤਮੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਦੁਖ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਈਅਹਿ ॥

ਇਕਨਾ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਬਖਸੀਸ ਇਕਿ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਸਦਾ ਭਵਾਈਅਹਿ ॥

ਹੁਕਮੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਹੁਕਮ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥

ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੈ ਜੇ ਬੁਝੈ ਤ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਹੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੨॥

 

[ax0547]

From the first pauri we learn that Guru sahib is talking about the "Hukam". no one is beyond the hukam and everyone is inside it. we get no perspective about Karma or anythin but instead everyone is under gods hukam.

One question relating to our discussion is that if everything is gods hukam, wehre does our free will come into play or do we knot have it. on the otherhand if we don't have freewill then who does the Karma? Therefore we should have somekind of freewill!

 

[ax0547]

ਗਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਤਾਣੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਕਿਸੈ ਤਾਣੁ ॥

ਗਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਦਾਤਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ॥

ਗਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਗੁਣ ਵਡਿਆਈਆ ਚਾਰ ॥

ਗਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਵਿਦਿਆ ਵਿਖਮੁ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥

ਗਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਸਾਜਿ ਕਰੇ ਤਨੁ ਖੇਹ ॥

ਗਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਜੀਅ ਲੈ ਫਿਰਿ ਦੇਹ ॥

ਗਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਜਾਪੈ ਦਿਸੈ ਦੂਰਿ ॥
ਗਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਵੇਖੈ ਹਾਦਰਾ ਹਦੂਰਿ ॥

ਕਥਨਾ ਕਥੀ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਤੋਟਿ ॥

ਕਥਿ ਕਥਿ ਕਥੀ ਕੋਟੀ ਕੋਟਿ ਕੋਟਿ ॥

ਦੇਦਾ ਦੇ ਲੈਦੇ ਥਕਿ ਪਾਹਿ ॥

ਜੁਗਾ ਜੁਗੰਤਰਿ ਖਾਹੀ ਖਾਹਿ ॥

ਹੁਕਮੀ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਚਲਾਏ ਰਾਹੁ ॥

ਨਾਨਕ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ॥੩॥

 

[ax0547]

In this pauri, Guru Sahib is talking about what others say regarding waheguru! In the end Guru sahib summerize with saying that God cannot be jsut reduced to thought, as many have tried to do so!

ਗਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਸਾਜਿ ਕਰੇ ਤਨੁ ਖੇਹ ॥

ਗਾਵੈ ਕੋ ਜੀਅ ਲੈ ਫਿਰਿ ਦੇਹ ॥

These words just say that some people/others think/say such, but this certainly not Guru sahib's stand as of yet!

 

[ax0547]

ਹੁਕਮੀ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਚਲਾਏ ਰਾਹੁ ॥

ਨਾਨਕ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ॥੩॥

Guru sahib again refreshes us that we are withing hukam and that god is carefree and does what he/she/it wills to do! Simply it controls us we cannot control it!

 

[ax0547]

ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚੁ ਨਾਇ ਭਾਖਿਆ ਭਾਉ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥

ਆਖਹਿ ਮੰਗਹਿ ਦੇਹਿ ਦੇਹਿ ਦਾਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਦਾਤਾਰੁ ॥

ਫੇਰਿ ਕਿ ਅਗੈ ਰਖੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਦਿਸੈ ਦਰਬਾਰੁ ॥

ਮੁਹੌ ਕਿ ਬੋਲਣੁ ਬੋਲੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੁਣਿ ਧਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਉ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥

ਕਰਮੀ ਆਵੈ ਕਪੜਾ ਨਦਰੀ ਮੋਖੁ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥

ਨਾਨਕ ਏਵੈ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਸਚਿਆਰੁ ॥੪॥

 

[ax0547]

Here Guru sahib adresses -

• we should say gods name and reflect/comtemplate upon it to see gods door!
• but liberations is attained thorugh gods NADAR/grace.

SO IT IS OUR JOB TO FIND DOOR, BUT RESULT IS DEPENDENT UPON GOD'S GRACE.
BUT there is a tuk about KARMA between.

Karma in literal derivation is our deeds.
kapra literally is clothing.

literally - due to deeds/work one attains clothing.

"non literally" people have tranlstated as - due to krama/word/deeds one attains physical body, consequesntly these karams have to have been done in past.

This kind of makes sense if we just only look at tuk metaphorically, but when looked in the whole context this makes little sense!. why?

because it seems to be a distant analogy to be used metaphorically. clothing verses body is very different. We clearly know that in order to get clothing we have to do our part i.e. work. in context with the line above that is in order to find door we have to vichar the true name. But essentially since every thing is hukam therefore liberation even depends upon gods nadar.

Also if the word is to be body then guru sahib would have clearly used the word "deh/sarir or some other". The word kapra is not even rhyming with above or below line, so the usage of word like "sarir" would have had made no difference, but more clarity if guru sahib was to mean such. No guru sahib clearly used word kapra. specifically, why would guru sahib use kapra metaphorically, istead of clarity, if there was no use in rhyming or anything. What could be motivation behind useing it metaphorically is the simple question. To me there seems none, it would be nice if some one could point out to me!


On the other hand, we can see that guru sahib is acknowledging that atleast some part of Karma/deeds we do even though all is within the hukam.

The last line clearly states that the true god is all itslef. So accordingly us doing karma is within hukam too - probably, but then who is doing krama us or god? we will have to look on karma in this perpective too, as we go along!

 

[ax0547]

Any mistake, may waheguru forgive das!

 

[ax0547]

DISCUSSION ON OTHER THREADS - UPDATE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sikh80 (Paudi-4-Jap Ji Sahib Interpretation)
Interpretation Of paudi –4





6.ਕਰਮੀ ਆਵੈ ਕਪੜਾ ਨਦਰੀ ਮੋਖੁ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥
7.ਨਾਨਕ ਏਵੈ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਸਚਿਆਰੁ ॥੪॥




It is through Karmas that one gets this Human body and it through HIS grace only that one finds Liberation. It is also stated that HE is the ‘Sat’.


[The concept of Liberation has been discussed in the paudi-2 and 3. The liberation is obtained only with HIS grace. The bani tells us that it is only the route available to the mankind. One should lead the life as per [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Guru[/URL]’s teachings and seek liberation as per HIS grace.]



7.ਕਰਮੀ=ਕਰਮ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ, (ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ) ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ਸ਼/ਰਹਿਮਤ/ਮਿਹਰ/ਕਿਰਪਾ ਨਾਲ, ਅਮਲਾਂ ਦਾ ਲੇਖਾ/ਸਦਕਾ, ਚੰਗੇ ਭਾਗ ਨਾਲ, ਕਿਸਮਤ ਨਾਲ, ਸੰਸਕਾਰਾਂ ਕਾਰਨ। SGGS Gurmukhi-English Dictionary=Var. From Karama



Bhul Chuk Mauf

It says KAPRA = CLOTHING NOT OUR BODY! please clarify your supposition! bul chuk maaf
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ਕਰਮੀ ਆਵੈ ਕਪੜਾ ਨਦਰੀ ਮੋਖੁ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥
karamee aavai kaparraa nadharee mokh dhuaar ||
By the [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Karma[/URL] of past actions, the robe of this physical body is obtained. By His Grace, the Gate of Liberation is found.


ਨਾਨਕ ਏਵੈ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਸਚਿਆਰੁ ॥੪॥
naanak eaevai jaaneeai sabh aapae sachiaar ||4||
O Nanak, know this well: the True One Himself is All. ||4||

Ang 2

ਕਪੜਾ kaparraa - literally clothing or covering for the body; but in this instance, the body is the covering or robe; and in the context of the shabad, the covering is obtained through our past actions and it is nothing in contemplation of the Divine. Forgive me.
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Well I have read this before too, but what is your support for kapra being body in this instance. The conext does not make for kapra to be infrenced as body, unless you have some presupposition that this is how it is supposed to be! Also please read ny thread on reincarnation to see my point of view! bul chuk maaf!
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If you read first [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Guru[/URL] Vaak, [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Guru[/URL] ji instructs followers to do deeds of praising the Lord, that deed is also known as gift( Kapra), this is very much clear in Maajh Ki Vaar, M-1, Pouri 27, here, Kapra doesn’t mean human body, [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Guru[/URL] ji says, during early hours of Morning, Lord’s name should be contemplated; however, such gift of praising the Lord, comes by Lord’s blessings( karmi is from Karm= blessing, so Nadr and Karmee here mean Lord's grace/blessings), and with Lord’s grace one sees Him. To interpret “Kapra” for human body looks very odd in this [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Guru[/URL] Vaa[/FONT]
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pk70 (Paudi-4-Jap Ji Sahib Interpretation)
If you read first [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Guru[/URL] Vaak, [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Guru[/URL] ji instructs followers to do deeds of praising the Lord, that deed is also known as gift( Kapra), this is very much clear in Maajh Ki Vaar, M-1, Pouri 27, here, Kapra doesn’t mean human body, [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Guru[/URL] ji says, during early hours of Morning, Lord’s name should be contemplated; however, such gift of praising the Lord, comes by Lord’s blessings( karmi is from Karm= blessing, so Nadr and Karmee here mean Lord's grace/blessings), and with Lord’s grace one sees Him. To interpret “Kapra” for human body looks very odd in this [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Guru[/URL] Vaa[/FONT]

well, literal meaning of karam is = deeds not blessing, but if karam could be done by us or prewritten. If prewritten = blessing, if not then?> but for sure increncing kapra as body is not good inference. can you please post in gurmukhi Maajh Ki Vaar, M-1, Pouri 27.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ax0547 (Paudi-4-Jap Ji Sahib Interpretation)
well, literal meaning of karam is = deeds not blessing, but if karam could be done by us or prewritten. If prewritten = blessing, if not then?> but for sure increncing kapra as body is not good inference. can you please post in gurmukhi Maajh Ki Vaar, M-1, Pouri 27.


Karm means blessing, kirpa, reham also, so please do not box it into one meaning.
Go and check Majh Ki Vaar Mehla 1, Pouri 27, Page 150-SGGSJi, I cannot post it right now due to time.
There is no hint of pre written at least in this [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Guru[/URL] Vaak, assumptions have no limits though. Thanks.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ax0547
Well I have read this before too, but what is your support for kapra being body in this instance. The conext does not make for kapra to be infrenced as body, unless you have some presupposition that this is how it is supposed to be! Also please read ny thread on reincarnation to see my point of view! bul chuk maaf!

Now I understand that you are seeking a meaning in context -- Here is what Professor Surinder Singh Kohli gives us as the definition of Kaapara/kaphra in Dictionary of (Guru Granth Sahib - The History, Arrangements and Text)[URL="http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/666-guru-granth-sahib-history-arrangements-text.html"]Guru Granth[/URL] Sahib (2005) kaapara = clothes, or clothes of the body.

What can throw a person off is the transliteration Kaapara/kaphra. They are the same word कपड़ा . In the context of the shabad kaapara suggests that the body is the robe or covering of the self. It says it right there in the shabad.

Here are 2 translations of the same line. I have included the entire pauree.

saachaa saahib saach naa-ay bhaakhi-aa bhaa-o apaar.
True Master, True is His Name - Meditate it with utmost humility and deep love.

aakhahi mangahi dayhi dayhi daat karay daataar.
Ask and plead, "Give, give" - The Giver gives in abundance.

fayr ke agai rakhee-ai jit disai darbaar.
What can we place before Him, by which the Darbaar can be seen?

muhou ke bolan bolee-ai jit sun Dharay pi-aar.
What words can our mouth utter, listening to which His Love is gained?

[URL="http://www.sikhism.us/amrit/"]Amrit[/URL] vaylaa sach naa-o vadi-aa-ee veechaar.
In the Ambrosial period, dwell upon His True Name and praises.

karmee aavai कपड़ा kaapara kaprhaa nadree mokh du-aar.
With good past karmas, this robe is obtained, By His Grace, the Gate of Liberation is found. (Sant Sahib Singh)
By Good actions the physical robe is obtained and by the Lord's benediction the gate of salvation. (Manmohan Singh trans.)

naanak ayvai jaanee-ai sabh aapay sachiaar.
O Nanak, know this well: Everything is in the Righteous Lord!

My interpretation of this (not my translation)

The [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Guru[/URL] is saying: We beg and beg and He gives and gives in abundance. So then, what can we offer to Him, place before Him. What words (prayers) can we say now that we can listen to (hear His love).

And the answer is...

Dwell upon his naam (contemplate the Naam) and His praises. And if we have good karams then we will obtain the robe of goodness, of virtue-- our body will be covered with virtue, with goodness. The gate of mukhti, liberation will be opened for us. Everything is known, comes through Him.

Many times in the Bani of (Guru Nanak Dev Ji)[URL="http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-gurus/18850-guru-nanak-dev-ji.html"]Guru Nanak[/URL] he uses the metaphor of clothing, not to mean our physical attire, but rather to mean -- cover ourselves with virtue and goodness. So for kaapara to mean robe makes perfect sense. (Guru Nanak Dev Ji)[URL="http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-gurus/18850-guru-nanak-dev-ji.html"]Guru Nanak[/URL] will use the word khinthhaa in the same way, not to mean literally "coat," but the virtue that khinthhaa stands for.
_________________________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by ax0547 (Paudi-4-Jap Ji Sahib Interpretation)
well, literal meaning of karam is = deeds not blessing, but if karam could be done by us or prewritten. If prewritten = blessing, if not then?> but for sure increncing kapra as body is not good inference. can you please post in gurmukhi Maajh Ki Vaar, M-1, Pouri 27.

According to Professor Surinder Singh Kohli, in Dictionary of (Guru Granth Sahib - The History, Arrangements and Text)[URL="http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/666-guru-granth-sahib-history-arrangements-text.html"]Guru Granth[/URL] Sahib (2005) you are correct. The first meaning of karam is actions or deeds. However, the second meaning is blessing or fortune.

In this sense then, past actions when good clothe the body in goodness; past actions when not virtuous clothe the body in a negative way. Everything is by His Grace.

I am veer ji resorting to using this dictionary. The meaning in the shabad was clear to me without the dictionary. However, the bias of Sant Sahib Singh was questioned in an earlier post. And some may have questions about my ability to comprehend the [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Guru[/URL]. Therefore, I sought out the dictionary as a separate and independent source of understanding. I am more than willing to check any other terms if members are interested.
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Well, thank for your clarity. It would be really nice if you can give some exampes of karam's meaning as blessing or how it is derived. My whole point is that this usage of Karam is not the KARAMA used by hindu's for theorizing about reincarnation.

Overall there are three meanings of word "karam"

• deeds/work
• blessings (according to you)
• measuring unit ( 1 karam, 2 karam)
• our destiny!

overall, do we agree that these karmas are not from past life, but our actions done in this lifetime or to be done! Thoug I agree with your interpretation that the tuk is about us recieveing blessings due to our virtues?
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Many times in the Bani of (Guru Nanak Dev Ji)[URL="http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-gurus/18850-guru-nanak-dev-ji.html"]Guru Nanak[/URL] he uses the metaphor of clothing, not to mean our physical attire, but rather to mean -- cover ourselves with virtue and goodness. So for kaapara to mean robe makes perfect sense. (Guru Nanak Dev Ji)[URL="http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-gurus/18850-guru-nanak-dev-ji.html"]Guru Nanak[/URL] will use the word khinthhaa in the same way, not to mean literally "coat," but the virtue that khinthhaa stands for.[/quote]

I think though robe makes sense, using the word past, "good" actions, and "physical" and so on is putting one's own perpective and not conveyed by [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Guru[/URL] sahib, instead it should be left to reader! these words tend to lead one into believeing that [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Guru[/URL] sahib is talking about reincarnation being dependent upon our Karams, which is cearly not the case yet!
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Re: Paudi-4-Jap Ji Sahib Interpretation >> Email This Topic To Your Friends Quote:
Originally Posted by aad0002 (Paudi-4-Jap Ji Sahib Interpretation)
According to Professor Surinder Singh Kohli, in Dictionary of (Guru Granth Sahib - The History, Arrangements and Text)[URL="http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/666-guru-granth-sahib-history-arrangements-text.html"]Guru Granth[/URL] Sahib (2005) you are correct. The first meaning of karam is actions or deeds. However, the second meaning is blessing or fortune.

In this sense then, past actions when good clothe the body in goodness; past actions when not virtuous clothe the body in a negative way. Everything is by His Grace.

I am veer ji resorting to using this dictionary. The meaning in the shabad was clear to me without the dictionary. However, the bias of Sant Sahib Singh was questioned in an earlier post. And some may have questions about my ability to comprehend the [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Guru[/URL]. Therefore, I sought out the dictionary as a separate and independent source of understanding. I am more than willing to check any other terms if members are interested.

Aad 0002 Jio
With all due respect, I strongly disagree with your interpretation of Kapra as body; it doesn’t add up as per [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Guru[/URL] instruction in the first [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Guru[/URL] Vaak, it is the” Praise of Lord which is described as a robe of praise. You can still use Mr. Kohli’s meaning of`Kapra, a robe, to cover body, in this [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Guru[/URL] Vaak, first [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Guru[/URL] ji talks about “praise of Lord” which is referred as “Kapra in the second [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Guru[/URL] Vaak, From where this body has come? Good deeds? [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Guru[/URL] ji doesnt talk about previous life. If one is monkey in previous life, he can become human being by doing good deeds? What kind of good deeds monkey will do? If body is taken as Kapra of Soul, all souls have this Kapra. Read the following [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Guru[/URL] Vaak, [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Guru[/URL] ji’s message and meaning of Kapra becomes clearer! It is through His grace we get whatever it is,( even the dasam duaar or to realize Him within) instruction is to follow the path

ਢਾਢੀ ਸਚੈ ਮਹਲਿ ਖਸਮਿ ਬੁਲਾਇਆ ॥
Dẖādẖī sacẖai mahal kẖasam bulā▫i▫ā.
My Lord and Master has summoned me, His minstrel, to the True Mansion of His Presence.

ਸਚੀ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਸਾਲਾਹ ਕਪੜਾ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
Sacẖī sifaṯ sālāh kapṛā pā▫i▫ā.
He has dressed me in the robes of His True Praise and Glory.
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He has dressed me in the robes of His True Praise and Glory.

This is not any different in the figurative meaning of the metaphor used by Sant Singh above. So then how do you prefer to connect the idea of karaam with the concept of kaapara?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ax0547 (Paudi-4-Jap Ji Sahib Interpretation)
Many times in the Bani of (Guru Nanak Dev Ji)[URL="http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-gurus/18850-guru-nanak-dev-ji.html"]Guru Nanak[/URL] he uses the metaphor of clothing, not to mean our physical attire, but rather to mean -- cover ourselves with virtue and goodness. So for kaapara to mean robe makes perfect sense. (Guru Nanak Dev Ji)[URL="http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-gurus/18850-guru-nanak-dev-ji.html"]Guru Nanak[/URL] will use the word khinthhaa in the same way, not to mean literally "coat," but the virtue that khinthhaa stands for.

I think though robe makes sense, using the word past, "good" actions, and "physical" and so on is putting one's own perpective and not conveyed by [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Guru[/URL] sahib, instead it should be left to reader! these words tend to lead one into believeing that [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Guru[/URL] sahib is talking about reincarnation being dependent upon our Karams, which is cearly not the case yet![/quote]

veer ji,

You are asking a very subtle question. The perspective is shared by Professor Surinder Singh Kohli in terms of the meaning of the word. But the issue of reincarnation -- I don't see the shabad telling us that our reincarnation is dependent on our good deeds or bad deeds. I see the shabad saying that our pooran kaaram is already known by God and mukhti comes because of He is righteous and grants His Grace.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aad0002
He has dressed me in the robes of His True Praise and Glory.

This is not any different in the meaning of the metaphor used by Sant Singh above. So then how do you prefer to connect the idea of karaam with the concept of kaapara?


It is different from Sant Singh Khalsa's meaning and metaphoric expression.
Karm means blessings, Urdu poetry is filled with "karm" as blessing, mehar. So karm here stands for His "reham"( grace, blessings) Karmee here doesnt mean"deeds" because deed is alrady exprssed "what we should do in the early morning
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pk70 ji

Yes -- I agree. Kaaram has the meaning of blessings or fortune.
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karmee aavai कपड़ा kaapara kaprhaa nadree mokh du-aar.
With good past karmas, this robe is obtained, By His Grace, the Gate of Liberation is found. (Sant Sahib Singh)
By Good actions the physical robe is obtained and by the Lord's benediction the gate of salvation. (Manmohan Singh trans.)
So we can say,

With the blessings (of our pooran kasram) this robe is obtained, By His Grace, the Gate of Liberation is found.

But are not both the blessings, pooran ksaram, and mukhti are by his Grace.
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why do they have to be "past actions", couldn't it just be actions - past or pooran actions sounds like past life actions. If just actions is said, even then the meaning is what it is meant to be. that due to our action we recieve the robe!