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The Destiny/Free Will Paradox

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Caspian, Oct 25, 2008.

  1. Caspian

    Caspian
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    This is more of a general question that doesn't just pertain to Sikhism but many other religions like Christianity and Islam. Matter of fact, I usually use the example with western religions who have the idea of Heaven and Hell but I would like to hear an answer from an Eastern perspective.

    A logical fallacy is a paradox or two seemingly contradictory ideas.

    Now here we go.

    The dictionary defines god as: The supernatural being conceived as the perfect and omnipotent and omniscient originator and ruler of the universe.

    Although that is just a dictionary definition, for all extensive purposes, I believe the definition is sufficiently in line with a Sikh's perspective of God.

    The key idea is that, God is both Perfect and Omniscient. From a religious point of view you cannot argue otherwise. Now, if god is perfect, then a lot of people like to believe god has a plan. Simply put, God knows what everyone is doing before they do it and everyone does everything according to God's plan. To think otherwise would be religiously incorrect. People also like to believe the God has bestowed upon them a mind enough for them to be able to think on their own accord or for them to have the "free will" of action and thought in order to choose their own path (for better or for worse). However, I feel that the two ideas cannot co-exist. If god has a plan, or even if god just knows what you're going to do before u do it, then how do u have free will? The choice becomes an illusion because the decision you make is the decision that god has foreseen and planned, to do otherwise would suggest God is imperfect. Assuming you don't have free will and God has a plan, then we can agree that some people are born to lead a good life and others a bad life it would be unfair for god to punish those who live a bad life and have no capacity to change on their own accord because as it appears to god, they are just following his all-mighty perfect plan.

    Therefore, the only 2 logical conclusions I can infer are:
    1) You have free will but God is neither perfect or omniscient because true free will suggests you make your decisions on your own accord and God has no way of knowing what your doing. And we can truly be held responsible for our actions when we pass away.
    2)You don't have free will and God is both perfect and omniscient but we are ultimately living trivial lives pre-destined to set track on the good or bad paths and be punished for any wrong doings that we have ultimately no control in preventing. We're like actors in a movie set to play a part and follow the script.

    If anyone can find a fallacy in my logic :p then I am more then pleased to discuss it further. For now, all I want to hear is a explanation as to how free will and destiny can co-exist in relegion

    Edit: I asked a muslim friend of mines this question a long time ago and the response after a few months of hard thinking was that God has the ability to predetermine and his power is absolute but he has also given you a limited amount of free will, specially in the area of belief/dis-belief and that god neither wants you to or condones any negative actions. < The answer didnt satisfy me because, im asking "How" is this possible and she was simply telling me "It is" by suggesting that god is able to give you free will and still remain all perfect with the ability to pre determine. Thats kinda like asking "How does a plane fly" and the pilot telling me "It just does." Anyways, as a side note, another popular phrasing of the same paradox was given by Homer Simpson when he told Flanders "Can God make a burrito so hot that even he himself cannot eat it" lol i just thought id put that up for fun, dunt bother answering to homer simpson's quote :p i know god does not eat burritos. :p
     
    #1 Caspian, Oct 25, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 27, 2008
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  3. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Caspian ji

    Ahah! How do we know that God does not eat burritos? One problem that we always have when seeking to unravel the question of Destiny and Free Will is that we try to think God's thoughts. Great thread with great introduction. :happy:
     
  4. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    I don't believe God punishes anyone. He doesn't need to. Like you said he is the "doer" of everything.
     
  5. lalihayer

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    Sikhism believe that Lord is the doer of everything. It starts right from Mool Mantar ('Karta Purkh'), 1st pauri ('Hukam'), 2nd pauri (more about 'Hukam') and it goes on. We, mortals do not have any free will.
    Lord is the 'Karta Purkh'. He is the cause of causes.
    Some sikhs can argue we have free will. But no, our free will is just our illusion. If we can remove this illusion, only then we can overcome biggest obstacle to our Lord, that is our ego.
     
    #4 lalihayer, Oct 26, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2008
  6. lalihayer

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    Gurbani has number of Shabads confirming absolute power of His 'Hukam'. Initial Pauris of japji states full control of His 'Hukam' over the events surrounding us. Later Pauris of Japji with word 'Jor' makes it more clear.
    Out of many Shabads I will post one from Fifth Master on Panna 1081.
    ਮਾਰੂ ਸੋਲਹੇ ਮਹਲਾ ੫
    Maaroo, Solhas, Fifth Mehl:

    ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
    One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

    ਤੂ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਹਉ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਕੀਤਾ ॥
    You are my Lord and Master; You have made me Your servant.

    ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਸਭੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਦੀਤਾ ॥
    My soul and body are all gifts from You.

    ਕਰਨ ਕਰਾਵਨ ਸਭੁ ਤੂਹੈ ਤੂਹੈ ਹੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਛੁ ਅਸਾੜਾ ॥੧॥
    You are the Creator, the Cause of causes; nothing belongs to me. ||1||

    ਤੁਮਹਿ ਪਠਾਏ ਤਾ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਆਏ ॥
    When You sent me, I came into the world.

    ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਣਾ ਸੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਏ ॥
    Whatever is pleasing to Your Will, I do.

    ਤੁਝ ਤੇ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਕਿਛੂ ਨ ਹੋਆ ਤਾ ਭੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਾੜਾ ॥੨॥
    Without You, nothing is done, so I am not anxious at all. ||2||

    ਊਹਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਤੁਮਾਰਾ ਸੁਣੀਐ ॥
    In the world hereafter, the Hukam of Your Command is heard.

    ਈਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਭਣੀਐ ॥
    In this world, I chant Your Praises, Lord.

    ਆਪੇ ਲੇਖ ਅਲੇਖੈ ਆਪੇ ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਛੁ ਝਾੜਾ ॥੩॥
    You Yourself write the account, and You Yourself erase it; no one can argue with You. ||3||

    ਤੂ ਪਿਤਾ ਸਭਿ ਬਾਰਿਕ ਥਾਰੇ ॥
    You are our father; we are all Your children.

    ਜਿਉ ਖੇਲਾਵਹਿ ਤਿਉ ਖੇਲਣਹਾਰੇ ॥
    We play as You cause us to play.

    ਉਝੜ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਸਭੁ ਤੁਮ ਹੀ ਕੀਨਾ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਵੇਪਾੜਾ ॥੪॥
    The wilderness and the path are all made by You. No one can take the wrong path. ||4||

    ਇਕਿ ਬੈਸਾਇ ਰਖੇ ਗ੍ਰਿਹ ਅੰਤਰਿ ॥
    Some remain seated within their homes.

    ਇਕਿ ਪਠਾਏ ਦੇਸ ਦਿਸੰਤਰਿ ॥
    Some wander across the country and through foreign lands.

    ਇਕ ਹੀ ਕਉ ਘਾਸੁ ਇਕ ਹੀ ਕਉ ਰਾਜਾ ਇਨ ਮਹਿ ਕਹੀਐ ਕਿਆ ਕੂੜਾ ॥੫॥
    Some are grass-cutters, and some are kings. Who among these can be called false? ||5||

    ਕਵਨ ਸੁ ਮੁਕਤੀ ਕਵਨ ਸੁ ਨਰਕਾ ॥
    Who is liberated, and who will land in hell?

    ਕਵਨੁ ਸੈਸਾਰੀ ਕਵਨੁ ਸੁ ਭਗਤਾ ॥
    Who is worldly, and who is a devotee?

    ਕਵਨ ਸੁ ਦਾਨਾ ਕਵਨੁ ਸੁ ਹੋਛਾ ਕਵਨ ਸੁ ਸੁਰਤਾ ਕਵਨੁ ਜੜਾ ॥੬॥
    Who is wise, and who is shallow? Who is aware, and who is ignorant? ||6||

    ਹੁਕਮੇ ਮੁਕਤੀ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਨਰਕਾ ॥
    By the Hukam of the Lord's Command, one is liberated, and by His Hukam, one falls into hell.

    ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸੈਸਾਰੀ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਭਗਤਾ ॥
    By His Hukam, one is worldly, and by His Hukam, one is a devotee.

    ਹੁਕਮੇ ਹੋਛਾ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਦਾਨਾ ਦੂਜਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਅਵਰੁ ਧੜਾ ॥੭॥
    By His Hukam, one is shallow, and by His Hukam, one is wise. There is no other side except His. ||7||

    ਸਾਗਰੁ ਕੀਨਾ ਅਤਿ ਤੁਮ ਭਾਰਾ ॥
    You made the ocean vast and huge.

    ਇਕਿ ਖੜੇ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਕਰਿ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਗਾਵਾਰਾ ॥
    You made some into foolish self-willed manmukhs, and dragged them into hell.

    ਇਕਨਾ ਪਾਰਿ ਲੰਘਾਵਹਿ ਆਪੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜਿਨ ਕਾ ਸਚੁ ਬੇੜਾ ॥੮॥
    Some are carried across, in the ship of Truth of the True Guru. ||8||

    ਕਉਤਕੁ ਕਾਲੁ ਇਹੁ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਪਠਾਇਆ ॥
    You issue Your Command for this amazing thing, death.

    ਜੀਅ ਜੰਤ ਓਪਾਇ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
    You create all beings and creatures, and absorb them back into Yourself.

    ਵੇਖੈ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਸਭਿ ਰੰਗ ਮਾਣੇ ਰਚਨੁ ਕੀਨਾ ਇਕੁ ਆਖਾੜਾ ॥੯॥
    You gaze in delight upon the one arena of the world, and enjoy all the pleasures. ||9||

    ਵਡਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਵਡੀ ਨਾਈ ॥
    Great is the Lord and Master, and Great is His Name.

    ਵਡ ਦਾਤਾਰੁ ਵਡੀ ਜਿਸੁ ਜਾਈ ॥
    He is the Great Giver; Great is His place.

    ਅਗਮ ਅਗੋਚਰੁ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਅਤੋਲਾ ਹੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਛੁ ਆਹਾੜਾ ॥੧੦॥
    He is inaccessible and unfathomable, infinite and unweighable. He cannot be measured. ||10||

    ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਦੂਜਾ ॥
    No one else knows His value.

    ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਪੂਜਾ ॥
    Only You Yourself, O Immaculate Lord, are equal to Yourself.

    ਆਪਿ ਸੁ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਆਪਿ ਧਿਆਨੀ ਆਪਿ ਸਤਵੰਤਾ ਅਤਿ ਗਾੜਾ ॥੧੧॥
    You Yourself are the spiritual teacher, You Yourself are the One who meditates. You Yourself are the great and immense Being of Truth. ||11||

    ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਦਿਨ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥
    For so many days, You remained invisible.

    ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਦਿਨ ਸੁੰਨਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
    For so many days, You were absorbed in silent absorption.

    ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਦਿਨ ਧੁੰਧੂਕਾਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਪਰਗਟੜਾ ॥੧੨॥
    For so many days, there was only pitch darkness, and then the Creator revealed Himself. ||12||

    ਆਪੇ ਸਕਤੀ ਸਬਲੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥
    You Yourself are called the God of Supreme Power.

    ਆਪੇ ਸੂਰਾ ਅਮਰੁ ਚਲਾਇਆ ॥
    You Yourself are the hero, exerting Your regal power.

    ਆਪੇ ਸਿਵ ਵਰਤਾਈਅਨੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਸੀਤਲੁ ਠਾਰੁ ਗੜਾ ॥੧੩॥
    You Yourself spread peace within; You are cool and icy calm. ||13||

    ਜਿਸਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਜੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਾਜੇ ॥
    One whom You bless and make Gurmukh -

    ਨਾਮੁ ਵਸੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਅਨਹਦ ਵਾਜੇ ॥
    the Naam abides within him, and the unstruck sound current vibrates for him.

    ਤਿਸ ਹੀ ਸੁਖੁ ਤਿਸ ਹੀ ਠਕੁਰਾਈ ਤਿਸਹਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਜਮੁ ਨੇੜਾ ॥੧੪॥
    He is peaceful, and he is the master of all; the Messenger of Death does not even approach him. ||14||

    ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਾਗਦ ਕਹੀ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
    His value cannot be described on paper.

    ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਗੁਸਾਈ ॥
    Says Nanak, the Lord of the world is infinite.

    ਆਦਿ ਮਧਿ ਅੰਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੋਈ ਹਾਥਿ ਤਿਸੈ ਕੈ ਨੇਬੇੜਾ ॥੧੫॥
    In the beginning, in the middle and in the end, God exists. Judgement is in His Hands alone. ||15||

    ਤਿਸਹਿ ਸਰੀਕੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਰੇ ਕੋਈ ॥
    No one is equal to Him.

    ਕਿਸ ਹੀ ਬੁਤੈ ਜਬਾਬੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
    No one can stand up against Him by any means.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਚੋਜ ਖੜਾ ॥
    Nanak's God is Himself all-in-all. He creates and stages and watches His wondrous plays. ||

    Note: Some words 'hell', 'jam' etc. are mentioned just as metaphors. It is a totally different subject. Just try to understand what Master is saying here.
     
    #5 lalihayer, Oct 27, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2008
  7. lalihayer

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    A shabad from Third Master on panna 1417.
    ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਹੈ ਬਿਖੁ ਦੁਤਰੁ ਤਰਿਆ ਜਾਇ
    Emotional attachment to Maya is a treacherous ocean of pain and poison, which cannot be crossed.


    ਮੇਰਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਕਰਦੇ ਪਚਿ ਮੁਏ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਰਤ ਵਿਹਾਇ
    Screaming, "Mine, mine!", they rot and die; they pass their lives in egotism.


    ਮਨਮੁਖਾ ਉਰਵਾਰੁ ਪਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਅਧ ਵਿਚਿ ਰਹੇ ਲਪਟਾਇ
    The self-willed manmukhs are in limbo, neither on this side, nor the other; they are stuck in the middle.


    ਜੋਧੁਰਿਲਿਖਿਆਸੁਕਮਾਵਣਾਕਰਣਾਕਛੂਜਾਇ
    They act as they are pre-destined; they cannot do anything else.


    ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਰਤਨੁ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਸਭੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਸੁਭਾਇ
    Following the Guru's Teachings, the jewel of spiritual wisdom abides in the mind, and then God is easily seen in all.


    ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਬੋਹਿਥੈ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਚੜੈ ਤੇ ਭਉਜਲਿ ਪਾਰਿ ਲੰਘਾਇ ੩੪
    O Nanak, the very fortunate ones embark on the Boat of the True Guru; they are carried across the terrifying world-ocean. ||34||
     
  8. lalihayer

    lalihayer
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    Guru Nanak on panna 475.


    ਪਉੜੀ
    Pauree:


    ਵਡੇ ਕੀਆ ਵਡਿਆਈਆ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਹਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ
    The description of the greatness of the Great Lord cannot be described.


    ਸੋ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਾਦਰ ਕਰੀਮੁ ਦੇ ਜੀਆ ਰਿਜਕੁ ਸੰਬਾਹਿ
    He is the Creator, all-powerful and benevolent; He gives sustenance to all beings.


    ਸਾਈ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਵਣੀ ਧੁਰਿ ਛੋਡੀ ਤਿੰਨੈ ਪਾਇ
    The mortal does that work, which has been pre-destined from the very beginning.


    ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕੀ ਬਾਹਰੀ ਹੋਰ ਦੂਜੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਜਾਇ
    O Nanak, except for the One Lord, there is no other place at all.


    ਸੋ ਕਰੇ ਜਿ ਤਿਸੈ ਰਜਾਇ ੨੪ਸੁਧੁ
    He does whatever He wills. ||24||1|| Sudh||
     
  9. lalihayer

    lalihayer
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    Here are couple of questions asked by curious or doubtful minds.
    1. Would that mean we don't need any effort on our part? Would it make us irresponsible?
    2. Does that mean Lord made us do bad deeds? Then why we have to go through pain because of our actions which God caused us to do?
    Orange colored are the questions and blue colored are the answers from Gurbani.

    1. Would that mean we don't need any effort on our part?

    Doing effort is an integral part of Sikhism. Even though as a Sikh, we should always keep in mind that Lord is playing this whole game, but it should not prevent us from doing effort on our part.
    Guru Nanak in Pauri 36 of japji talks about One of the spiritual stages on our way to Lord. It is called Sarm Khand. 'Sarm' here means effort. There are other many examples from Gurbani where Guru Sahib told us to do effort. But this effort can only be done within His Hukam.

    ਸਰਮ ਖੰਡ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਰੂਪੁ ॥ ਤਿਥੈ ਘਾੜਤਿ ਘੜੀਐ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਅਨੂਪੁ ॥
    Beauty is the language of the realm of spiritual effort. There, an extremely incomparable make, is made.

    ਤਾ ਕੀਆ ਗਲਾ ਕਥੀਆ ਨਾ ਜਾਹਿ ॥ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਕਹੈ ਪਿਛੈ ਪਛੁਤਾਇ ॥
    The proceedings of that place can not be described. If any one endeavors to describe, he shall afterwards repent.

    ਤਿਥੈ ਘੜੀਐ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਮਤਿ ਮਨਿ ਬੁਧਿ ॥ ਤਿਥੈ ਘੜੀਐ ਸੁਰਾ ਸਿਧਾ ਕੀ ਸੁਧਿ ॥੩੬॥
    There inner consciousness, intellect, soul and understand are moulded afresh. There the genius of the pious persons and men of miracles is moulded a new.

    2. Does that mean Lord made us do bad deeds? Then why we have to go through pain because of our actions which God caused us to do?

    What is good and bad?

    At a stage, gurmukh will realize that there is no difference between Good and Bad.
    A tuk from one of shabads (Fifth Mahl) I posted earlier.
    ਉਝੜ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਸਭੁ ਤੁਮ ਹੀ ਕੀਨਾ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਵੇਪਾੜਾ ॥੪॥
    The wilderness and the path are all made by You. No one can take the wrong path. ||4||

    Guru Nanak Dev on panna 229.
    ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਆਪੇ ਭਰਮਾਇਆ ॥
    He Himself is All-pervading; He Himself misleads the people.
    ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਬੂਝੀਐ ਸਭੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥੯॥੨॥੧੮॥
    By Guru's Grace, one comes to understand, that God is contained in all.

    why are we afraid of pain and suffering?

    ਮਃ ੧ ॥
    First Mehl:
    ਨਾਨਕ ਬੋਲਣੁ ਝਖਣਾ ਦੁਖ ਛਡਿ ਮੰਗੀਅਹਿ ਸੁਖ ॥
    O Nanak, it is absurd to ask to be spared from pain by begging for comfort.
    ਸੁਖੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਦੁਇ ਦਰਿ ਕਪੜੇ ਪਹਿਰਹਿ ਜਾਇ ਮਨੁਖ ॥
    Pleasure and pain are the two garments given, to be worn in the Court of the Lord.
    ਜਿਥੈ ਬੋਲਣਿ ਹਾਰੀਐ ਤਿਥੈ ਚੰਗੀ ਚੁਪ ॥੨॥
    Where you are bound to lose by speaking, there, you ought to remain silent. ||2||
     
    #8 lalihayer, Oct 27, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2008
  10. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    I think you are reading this better than I did. The conversations went off in another direction. So I left it alone. But yes I will merge these. Thanks for shedding some light.

    Two threads have been merged. Logical Fallacy Between Free Will and Destiny has been merged with this thread The Destiny/Free Will Paradox because of their similarity. Thank you.
     
  11. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    13. hukmy krm kmwvxy pieAY ikriq iPrwau ] (66-8, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
    [According to the Lord's Command, people perform their actions; they wander around, driven by the karma of their past actions.]


    God gave man free will limited in its own way so that he might choose Him above all, but a free choice involves the possibility of wrong choice; man chose ‘ego’ instead of his real Self, the Life of his life, that is, God. It is quite hard to believe that man has absolute free will in thoughts, actions or deeds. If one were to get the free will in totality and in all absoluteness one shall be trying to replace the basic powers of god who is the originator, sustainer and the ultimate destroyer of the show. Ultimately it is HIS will that should prevail so that this house is in order and the show goes on as per something that is pre-destined and that we cannot fathom. There may be some freedom of action that is in alignment with the basic Hukum of the Lord as to what is the objective of the life and that is stated in Bani at more than one place.

    137.cwir pdwrQ lY jig jnimAwisv skqI Gir vwsu Dry ] (1013-19, mwrU, mÚ 1)
    One is born to achieve the four great objectives of life. The spirit has taken up its home in the material world.

    (jIv prmwqmw pwsoN) cwry hI pdwrQ lY ky jgq ivc jMimAw hY (iPr BI pRBU dI b^SS Bulw ky sdw) prmwqmw dI pYdw kIqI mwieAw dy Gr ivc invws r`Kdw hY [ sdw ies ƒ mwieAw dI Bu`K hI cMbVI rihMdI hY, sdw mwieAw dw rwh hI q`kdw rihMdw hY, mwieAw dy moh ivc (Ps ky cOhW pdwrQW ivcoN) mukiq-pdwrQ gvw lYNdw hY [3[


    At another place the objective of life is also clearly stated.

    56.jo iqsu BwvY sMmRQ so QIAY hIlVw eyhu sMswro ] (579-6, vfhMsu, mÚ 1)
    Whatever pleases the Almighty Lord, that alone comes to pass; this world is an opportunity to please Him.

    I shall conclude that free will is permitted as per the following:

    AwT phr hir ky gux gwau ]
    (866-3, goNf, mÚ 5)
    Twenty-four hours a day, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord.
    jIA pRwn ko iehY suAwau ] (866-3, goNf, mÚ 5)
    This is the purpose of human life.

    If there is deviation from this purpose, the concept of free-will will be an illusion causing us to go astray not only this time but next time as well as today shall govern tomorrow as well. Limited free will is permissible within the over all context of HIS will and hukum.

    [Note: I had numbered few lines as per my notes and have not deleted them for my reference purpose only.]

    E & O E
     
  12. spnadmin

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    I am wondering why the questions posted by Lalihayer ji go unanswered. Here they are again,

    If we are to believe in His absolute 'Hukam', many questions pop up in our mind?

    1. Would that mean we don't need any effort on our part? Would it make us irresponsible?

    2. Does that mean Lord made us do bad deeds? Then why we have to go through pain because of our actions which God caused us to do?


    Both questions go straight to the heart of the idea of free will in Sikhism. Question 1 asks about the personal effort that we must make. If no effort is expected of us as individuals, then are we simply the puppets of the Creator? Is this the Sikh view of dharma?

    Question 2 asks whether the Divine causes us to commit bad deeds. If we say that bad deeds cause us pain, and we commit bad deeds at His will, then why should we suffer?

    The questions get right to the heart of morality in Sikhism. But they also ask us to think more deeply about the meaning of His Hukam. My own question -- Would a God who is pooran and supports the world by the Bull of Dharma wish us to be evil? This can be a challenging discussion. Forgive me. :)
     
  13. spnadmin

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    Lalihayer ji

    You quoted this from Gurbani

    Guru Nanak Dev on panna 229.

    ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਆਪੇ ਭਰਮਾਇਆ ॥
    He Himself is All-pervading; He Himself misleads the people.
    ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਬੂਝੀਐ ਸਭੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥੯॥੨॥੧੮॥
    By Guru's Grace, one comes to understand, that God is contained in all.


    Some find this particularly contradictory. Hard to understand why God would mislead people. Others say there is no contradiction whatsoever. The contradiction comes from not putting the idea into the bigger context of the ShabdGuru. What is your thinking about this? Satnamji
     
  14. lalihayer

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    Sikh80 ji,
    I am posting whole Shabad from panna 1013 here. Nowhere in this Shabad absolute control of Lord's Hukam is contradicted. Effort is advised by Guru ji again and again lot of times in Gurbani but only with Lord's grace.
    ਮਾਰੂ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
    Maru 1st Guru.

    ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਸੰਜੋਗਿ ਉਪਾਏ ਰਕਤੁ ਬਿੰਦੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਕਰੇ ॥
    The mortal comes into being from the union of the mother and father. The female's ovum and the male's sperm meet to form the body.

    ਅੰਤਰਿ ਗਰਭ ਉਰਧਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਸੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਾਰੇ ਦਾਤਿ ਕਰੇ ॥੧॥
    In the mother's womb attuned to the Lord's love. That Lord sustains him there and blesses him with the gift of safety.

    ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ਭਵਜਲੁ ਕਿਉ ਤਰੈ ॥
    How can the mortal cross the aweul world-ocean?

    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਅਫਰਿਓ ਭਾਰੁ ਅਫਾਰੁ ਟਰੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    By the Guru's grace the immaculate Lord's Name is obtained and the unendurable load of sins is removed. Pause.

    ਤੇ ਗੁਣ ਵਿਸਰਿ ਗਏ ਅਪਰਾਧੀ ਮੈ ਬਉਰਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰਉ ਹਰੇ ॥
    I, the sinner, have forgotten the goodness of Lord. What can I, the mad man, do now, O God?

    ਤੂ ਦਾਤਾ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਸਭੈ ਸਿਰਿ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਦਾਤਿ ਸਮਾਰਿ ਕਰੇ ॥੨॥
    Thou, O Lord, are the compassionate Giver over the heads of all Day and night Thou give gifts and take care of all.

    ਚਾਰਿ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਲੈ ਜਗਿ ਜਨਮਿਆ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ਘਰਿ ਵਾਸੁ ਧਰੇ ॥
    Man is born in this world to obtain the four life-objects, but his soul takes abode in the house of mammon.

    ਲਾਗੀ ਭੂਖ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਗੁ ਜੋਹੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਮੋਹਿ ਖਰੇ ॥੩॥
    Impelled by hunger, he spies the way of riches and secular attachment snatches away his wealth of salvation.

    ਕਰਣ ਪਲਾਵ ਕਰੇ ਨਹੀ ਪਾਵੈ ਇਤ ਉਤ ਢੂਢਤ ਥਾਕਿ ਪਰੇ ॥
    By weeping and wailing he obtains not the four cardinal boons and grows weary of searching hither and thither.

    ਕਾਮਿ ਕ੍ਰੋਧਿ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਿ ਵਿਆਪੇ ਕੂੜ ਕੁਟੰਬ ਸਿਉ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਕਰੇ ॥੪॥
    He is engrossed in lust, wrath and pride and bears love to his false kinsmen.

    ਖਾਵੈ ਭੋਗੈ ਸੁਣਿ ਸੁਣਿ ਦੇਖੈ ਪਹਿਰਿ ਦਿਖਾਵੈ ਕਾਲ ਘਰੇ ॥
    In the house of death, he eats, enjoys, hears with his ears, sees and dresses to show off.

    ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦ ਨ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਨ ਕਾਲੁ ਟਰੇ ॥੫॥
    Without Guru's instruction, he understands not his-self and without the Lord's Name, death is averted not.

    ਜੇਤਾ ਮੋਹੁ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਰਿ ਭੂਲੇ ਮੇਰੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਕਰਤੇ ਛੀਨਿ ਖਰੇ ॥
    The more man strays through worldly love, ego and the practice of self-hood the more he is dispossessed of gnosis.

    ਤਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਸਹਸੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਫਿਰਿ ਪਛੁਤਾਵੈ ਮੁਖਿ ਧੂਰਿ ਪਰੇ ॥੬॥
    When he loses his body and wealth, he is overtaken by gross anxiety and in the end when dust falls on his face, he greatly regrets.

    ਬਿਰਧਿ ਭਇਆ ਜੋਬਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਖਿਸਿਆ ਕਫੁ ਕੰਠੁ ਬਿਰੂਧੋ ਨੈਨਹੁ ਨੀਰੁ ਢਰੇ ॥
    When he becomes old, his youth and body recede, phlegm chokes his throat and water flows from his eyes.

    ਚਰਣ ਰਹੇ ਕਰ ਕੰਪਣ ਲਾਗੇ ਸਾਕਤ ਰਾਮੁ ਨ ਰਿਦੈ ਹਰੇ ॥੭॥
    His feet fail to function and his hands begin to tremble. Even then the worshipper of mammon enshrines not the Lord-God in his mind,

    ਸੁਰਤਿ ਗਈ ਕਾਲੀ ਹੂ ਧਉਲੇ ਕਿਸੈ ਨ ਭਾਵੈ ਰਖਿਓ ਘਰੇ ॥
    His intellect fails, his black hair turn white and no one likes him to stay at home.

    ਬਿਸਰਤ ਨਾਮ ਐਸੇ ਦੋਖ ਲਾਗਹਿ ਜਮੁ ਮਾਰਿ ਸਮਾਰੇ ਨਰਕਿ ਖਰੇ ॥੮॥
    Forgetting the Name, such stigmas attach to the man. Death's myrmidon soundly beats him and takes him to the hell.

    ਪੂਰਬ ਜਨਮ ਕੋ ਲੇਖੁ ਨ ਮਿਟਈ ਜਨਮਿ ਮਰੈ ਕਾ ਕਉ ਦੋਸੁ ਧਰੇ ॥
    The writ of past births can not be erased. Thus, whom else should one blame but himself?

    ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਬਾਦਿ ਜੀਵਣੁ ਹੋਰੁ ਮਰਣਾ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੈ ਜਨਮੁ ਜਰੇ ॥੯॥
    He ever continues coming and going. Without the Guru, vain is man's birth and death and without the Guru's instruction, he continues burning in his life.

    ਖੁਸੀ ਖੁਆਰ ਭਏ ਰਸ ਭੋਗਣ ਫੋਕਟ ਕਰਮ ਵਿਕਾਰ ਕਰੇ ॥
    The revelments enjoyed in glee prove ruinous and useless is the doing of evil deeds.

    ਨਾਮੁ ਬਿਸਾਰਿ ਲੋਭਿ ਮੂਲੁ ਖੋਇਓ ਸਿਰਿ ਧਰਮ ਰਾਇ ਕਾ ਡੰਡੁ ਪਰੇ ॥੧੦॥
    Forgetting the Name and attaching to avarice, the mortal loses even his principal sum and the club of the Righteous judge falls on his head.

    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇ ॥
    The Guru-wards, on whom God casts His merciful glance sing the Lord's Name's praise,

    ਤੇ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਅਪਰੰਪਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਤੇ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਹਰੇ ॥੧੧॥
    They are pure, perfect and the highest of the high persons. They are the embodiment of the great Lord God in this world.

    ਹਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਹੁ ਗੁਰ ਬਚਨ ਸਮਾਰਹੁ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਭਾਉ ਕਰੇ ॥
    So remember thy God, reflect on the Guru's word and enshrine love for the society of holymen.

    ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਧਾਨੁ ਦੁਆਰੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਨ ਜਨ ਕੀ ਰੇਣੁ ਹਰੇ ॥੧੨॥੮॥
    God's saints are venerable and supreme at the Lord's court. Nanak seeks the dust of feet of those saints of God.
     
  15. lalihayer

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    This is second Tuk posted. Read the first part of Tuk. It clearly showed His absolute control.

    ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੰਮ੍ਰਥ ਸੋ ਥੀਐ ਹੀਲੜਾ ਏਹੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੋ ॥
    Whatever pleases the Omnipotent Lord, that alone comes to pass. This world is an opportunity to earn His pleasure.
     
  16. lalihayer

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    Here are last two tuks of same Shabad from panna 866. No doubt, we should do the effort . But can it happen without Lord's grace?
    No!
    So where is free will?


    ਹੋਹੁ ਦਇਆਲ ਦੇਹੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਦਾਨੁ ॥
    Be merciful, and bless me with this gift,

    ਨਾਨਕੁ ਜਪਿ ਜੀਵੈ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਨਾਮੁ ॥੪॥੧੧॥੧੩॥
    that Nanak may live, chanting God's Name. ||4||11||13||
     
  17. spnadmin

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    Lalihayer ji, you have posted the Gurbani already. I am repeating only the English in order to restate the relationship between His Hukam and our effort.

    Whatever pleases the Omnipotent Lord, that alone comes to pass.
    This world is an opportunity to earn His pleasure. So: Everything that happens is according to His hukam -- and that includes the world which He created so that we could re-unite with Him.

    Be merciful, and bless me with this gift, He created us, and with His mercy we can be blessed with the gift of union with Him. that Nanak may live, chanting God's Name.We show that we accept this blessing, this opportunity, by making an effort, by chanting His Name. We have an opportunity to make an effort. Some do not make an effort. Is not the reason for this unhappy choice also explained in Guruji?
     
  18. lalihayer

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    We have an opportunity to make an effort. Some do not make an effort. Is not the reason for this unhappy choice also explained in Guruji?

    I posted beautiful Shabad from Fifth Master at (27-10-2008, 01:06 AM). He is the one making choices. I will repost some Tuks.
    ਆਪੇ ਲੇਖ ਅਲੇਖੈ ਆਪੇ ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਛੁ ਝਾੜਾ ॥੩॥
    You Yourself write the account, and You Yourself erase it; no one can argue with You. ||3||
    ਉਝੜ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਸਭੁ ਤੁਮ ਹੀ ਕੀਨਾ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਵੇਪਾੜਾ ॥੪॥
    The wilderness and the path are all made by You. No one can take the wrong path. ||4||
    ਹੁਕਮੇ ਮੁਕਤੀ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਨਰਕਾ ॥
    By the Hukam of the Lord's Command, one is liberated, and by His Hukam, one falls into hell.

    ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸੈਸਾਰੀ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਭਗਤਾ ॥
    By His Hukam, one is worldly, and by His Hukam, one is a devotee.

    On our level, we may feel we have free choice. But whatever choice we make, isn't it what He want us to do?
    I think It is.

    Guru Rakha.
     
  19. Sikh80

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    Dear Lalihayer ji,
    Thanks for Guru-Vaaks.

    I am in total agreement with you and have posted the same as my views. I think some member has posted the post-11/12 that needs your kind attention.
    His will prevails in every circumstances and that is how the things should be. I have no confusion in this regard. However, I post the following sabad:

    [ਬਧਾ ਚਟੀ ਜੋ ਭਰੇ ਨਾ ਗੁਣੁ ਨਾ ਉਪਕਾਰੁ ॥ ਸੇਤੀ ਖੁਸੀ ਸਵਾਰੀਐ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾਰਜੁ ਸਾਰੁ ]
    [ That alone is a good deed, O Nanak, which is done by one's own free will]
    [Ang-787]

    Instead of 'Free will' ,as above, the expression can be translated as 'with pleasure' which in essence would mean the same thing.

    It is enough for me to get convinced that we have very limited free will to obtain the objective of life if we are are blessed with HIS Grace as already stated.

    The Querist has posed this question specifically to you and it may be attended by your goodness. I would not like to make a digression.



    Warm Regards.!
     

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