Welcome to SPN

Register and Join the most happening forum of Sikh community & intellectuals from around the world.

Sign Up Now!

The Concept of Jooth/Juth?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by TigerStyleZ, Feb 11, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. TigerStyleZ

    TigerStyleZ
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2011
    Messages:
    270
    Likes Received:
    318
    WJKK WJKF ,

    I was wondering what the Concept of 'Jooth or Juth' is all about.. Can please someone explain it to me?
    Example: Amritdharis don´t eat from others, why is this so ? What were our Gurus thinking about it ? When we eat/take food from others? Why we can´t eat from others? Yes, I know there is risk of poisoning etc.. but if you know the other person from childhood?
    I mean this is kind like Brahaaman's who treat lower caste as 'untouchables'.

    I mean, there are Sakhis about Guru Nanak Dev ji and other Gurus who ate from other persons.
     
  2. Loading...

    Similar Threads Forum Date
    Re: The Concept of Jooth/Juth ? Sikh Sikhi Sikhism Dec 1, 2012
    Interfaith Meet At Gaya -Concepts Discussed Interfaith Dialogues Nov 30, 2016
    Concept Of Langar In Sikhi New to Sikhism Sep 11, 2016
    Concept Of Manmukh/Gurmukh. Is There A Freewill In Sikhism? Questions and Answers Jul 25, 2016
    Sikhism Hukamnama Of Akal Takht Sahib (History And Concept) Sikh Sikhi Sikhism Jun 20, 2016

  3. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    • Like Like x 4
    #2 spnadmin, Feb 11, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2013
  4. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Re: The Concept of Jooth/Juth ?

    TigherStyle ji

    Jhoot refers to the idea that armitdhari may not eat leftover food, food prepared by non-amritdhari or from plates shared with non-amritdhari. This can extend to refusing to attend parties that are catered. IMHO it is not dissimilar from food restrictions of extreme wings in orthodox Judaism. Among Jews, the concern is that their food be completely kosher, or "pure."

    In Sikhism There are only 4 kurehits. A restriction on leftover food or food preparation is not included. Forbidding jewelry is another example. The person seeking baptism must not wear jewelry at the ceremony of amrit sanchar. All Sikhs should avoid piercings or jewelry where piercing is involved. There is no other restriction against, however, many will say NO JEWELRY. Instead of seeing this as a personal decision. Let me quote from Gyani ji

    People like to add for a variety of reasons. An example would be changing the restriction against eating halal to completely avoiding meet. Over time these additions become hard-wired.

    For amritdhari, there are additional "disciplines."

    Here is the discipline to be followed by a baptized Sikh according to Sikh Rehat Maryada. No mention of jooth.

    The concept of jooth is a serious matter for some sects, but not all Sikhs. However you can see it is not part of the rehat. There are cultural reasons for it.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    #3 spnadmin, Feb 11, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2013
  5. TigerStyleZ

    TigerStyleZ
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2011
    Messages:
    270
    Likes Received:
    318
    Re: The Concept of Jooth/Juth ?

    Thank you SPNAdmin ji,

    I used the Searchengine , but didnt find any helpful thing. I know the Rehit Maryada , and that there is nothing written in it, but the Rehat Marayada of Akaal Takht was put together by high and learned SIkh Scholars and authorities - and people who believe in this jooth concept bring that into debatation. Then they start telling that Gurus themselves never ate Jooth... whereas everything on this world is jooth... Anyway they start off with some unlogical points.. I sometimes ask myself why they themselfs dont start laughing at what they said..

    I mean we all drink fro the same Water - I dont understand this ILLlogical concept.. I want a clearifying post what this Jooth concept is all about - Why people stilll believe in it altough it is very unlogical.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  6. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Re: The Concept of Jooth/Juth ?

    A few thoughts on my end TigerStyleZji

    One issue:

    "Rehat Maryada of Akal Takht was put together by ...Sikh Scholars and authorities - and people who believe in this jooth concept bring that into deliberation." Many who follow the concept of "jooth" follow their own maryadas. An example would be AKJ which has its own maryada that also requires women to wear turbans and cook only in steel pots.

    Another issue:

    Some Sikhs who know the SRM hear of "jooth" and decide to add it to their own discipline. It can become a family or local custom. After time it is accepted as a fact.

    "Jooth " is about keeping food spiritually pure. Remember that among brahmins a lower caste person could not even enter the courtyard surrounding the kitchen and outdoor areas where cooking took place. An entire area would need to be purified and the low caste person would be severely punished. These are ideas more than 1,000 years old. How easy is it to convince someone that "jooth" is not about purity but about status?

    Final thought:

    I posted a link to a longer thread on this issue. The thread is very clear. Jooth is illogical, does not follow from the SRM and raises amritdharis to the status of brahmins within Sikhism. If you cannot find a clear statement on the Internet then the reason must be that posters are either themselves unclear or the forum/web site has its own doctrines which hold that "jooth" is required.

    Personally I cannot remember reading about 'jooth" in any of the scholarly literature.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    #5 spnadmin, Feb 11, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2013
  7. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Re: The Concept of Jooth/Juth ?

    Here is what I am talking about. This web site gives a green light to belief in "jooth" and proceeds to explain why it is a reasonable idea. Good and bad karmas are passed by cooking to the food we eat.

    It is perfect example of a) the continuation of an ancient brahmin belief and b) it comes from the separate rehat of AKJ. From this link http://www.gurmatbibek.com/contents.php?id=895
     
    • Like Like x 3
    #6 spnadmin, Feb 11, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
  8. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,634
    Likes Received:
    2,749
    Re: The Concept of Jooth/Juth ?

    I actually asked a very similar question not so long ago about 'bibek rehat'

    There is a thread about this that is worth looking at, and I'm pretty sure it will help answer your question.
    Our Gyanji kindly helped explain and answer my query very well in that thread and now I actually do understand the logic and reasoning behind it, thanks to Gyanji's influence!

    Once you differentiate between sikh discipline and brahmin mania then it becomes a little clear!
    Check the thread below-

    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/39618-bibek-rehit.html
     
    • Like Like x 4
  9. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Re: The Concept of Jooth/Juth ?

    Actually Luckysingh ji

    I liked your reply. It sums things up re: bibek rehat

     
    • Like Like x 3
  10. TigerStyleZ

    TigerStyleZ
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2011
    Messages:
    270
    Likes Received:
    318
    Re: The Concept of Jooth/Juth ?

    Thank you for all the answers - after readins several posts and articles - the Concept was clarified. Hah, I used wrong keywords to find this thread I guess , I wrote Jooth instead of Jhooth, and 'Bibek Rehat' was a missing Keyword as well. So thank you for all this quotations and links.

    It is like I thought a continued Brahmin practice disguised as Jooth in Sikhi...
    I mean , they eat food from their mothers...Isnt that Jooth as well.. Anyway I don´t understand why they themselves don´t see the falseness behind this Concept? Is it really just the manifestation or the corporate compilance destroying of Sikhi?

    I personally would eat from my friend - whom I know from childhood. Because if we would know each other for so long ,I wouldnt care if he is black or any other thing. (Skincolour in this Case of Jooth will be a an issue as well - people would say a DOUBLe NO NO , I bet!)



    EDIT:
    Ok, I came across a Post of Ambarsaria
    I am confused now, why he quoted that it iswritten in the rehit marayada - I never saw that line :eek:?
     
    • Like Like x 2
    #9 TigerStyleZ, Feb 12, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
  11. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Re: The Concept of Jooth/Juth ?

    This is the exact line: " One who eats/drinks Left-overs of the unbaptised or the fallen Sikhs " This is the entire section. Technically many things listed here lead to chastisement:
    It is at the very end of SRM, Section 6, Chapter xiii.

    Question: Does this restriction qualify as jooth? Is it the proper definition of jooth? Or are we once again talking about passing good and bad karmas through the food we eat? In Gurmatbibek that seems to be the key ingredient of jooth...passing bad karmas because of an impure cook. Not a dirty cook, but a cook with bad karmas to pass along. Can we be certain that amritdhari are so spiritually pure that none will pass bad karmas to the rest of us? :wink:
     
    • Like Like x 2
    #10 spnadmin, Feb 12, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
  12. Ishna

    Ishna
    Expand Collapse
    On hiatus
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,942
    Likes Received:
    5,002
    I don't know about anyone else but things seem to pop into and out of the online SRM on a regular basis... either that or it's just my crazy brain.


    Thanks Adminji, you beat me to it! Is the keyword 'left-overs'...? You can eat food cooked by a non-Sikh, but just don't eat their left-overs!! haha
     
    • Like Like x 2
  13. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    The way it is worded an amritdhari can also eat left-overs of a non-Sikh. It says left-over food of an unbaptized Sikh or fallen Sikh. Non Sikhs are OK.

    To tell the truth Ishna ji This is a real mess. I found the line in only 1 of 5 versions of the SRM that I checked. That was the one posted on the SGPC website. The finding is itself ironic insofar as the SGPC recently participated in a Hindu festival of Kumbh Mela. '

    The irony piles up. A chastisement is called for when an amritdhari associates with a former amritdhari who has cut his/her hair. That would mean that any amritdhari parent must shun a child, formerly amritdhari, who has cut his/her hair... or undergo chastisement.

    But let's go back to the sakkhi of Guru Nanak squeezing blood out of a roti.

    Is the lesson about bad karmas being transferred? I know that I never will and never have eaten knowingly at a restaurant operated by the Mafia, or acting as a mob front organization. And not because I may get sick. These characters are mixed up with prostitution, racketeering, extortion, arson, money laundering, drug peddling, gun running, gambling, and more. Yes.. there is a lot of "uncleaness" there, and I don't want to get close to it or eat their food or pay money for the privilege. Their profits are gained from "blood." Honestly I believe that is the meaning of the sakkhi. Guru Nanak is not "squeezing blood" rather he is showing how only "blood" can be found in the food provided by a crook. It is food made of crime and suffering.

    The question of jooth then remains unresolved in the realm of Sikh orthodoxy, but I know amritdhari who eat the food of non Sikhs, and unbaptized Sikhs, and participate in catered luncheons and dinners. Cooking in steel pots and eating from steel plates is not required. Having only amritdhari to cook your food is not part of this. Frankly I doubt they would pick up a half-eaten sandwich left lying around by anyone, baptized or not.
     
    • Like Like x 6
    #12 spnadmin, Feb 12, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
  14. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
    Expand Collapse
    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,623
    Likes Received:
    14,189
    Perhaps this may help..
    The Institution of Khandey batte DEE PAHUL is an INITIATION CEREMONY to ADMIT one into the KHALSA BROTHERHOOD.
    One of the TABOOS this ceremony seeks to BREAK is one of CASTE..high vs Low...Brahmin vs Shudra...for THOUSANDS of YEARS a shudra couldnt go within a mile of a Brahmins house/esp his kitchen...its THAT BAD !!
    So in the Ceremony...ALL sit together...DRINK from the SAME BOWL of "amrit"...eat from the SAME Bowl of Karrah parshaad...this is in order to BREAK THE TABOO of low/high/higher/better/whatever....ALL ARE EQUALS BEFORE THE PANJ and SGGS. Any and all "kurehiteyeahs..law breakers..have to stand up and CONFESS and be suitably "punished". So no one..rich or king or emperor can ESCAPE via his position/religious or worldly.
    AFTER this ceremony all the newly admitted are advised to discard all previous practises and adopt the amritdharee ones...and hence the SRM line. The Khandey batteh dee pahul creates a NEW SOCIAL ORDER..which follows its LAWS set out in SRM.

    2. SECOND taboo which this CEREMONY seeks to BREAK..is "EATING LEFT OVERS..for SPIRITUAL PURIFICATION"....what many DONT KNOW is that in idnian religious tradition its much sought after to "EAT LEFT OVERS" of holy men..sadhus..Gurus..saints whatever...many human Gurus actually SPIT into the FOOD to be served to devotees to "PURIFY IT"...gross but TRUE. Many SIKHS actually RUSH to eat the Left overs of Rapists like Manna Phova !! Gross but TRUE never the less !!! IN Malaysia a politicla big Wig who also invited a few "honourable Sikhs" to attend the viist of a Holy SWAMI form Chennai to his home...actually passed around the Plate of elft overs of the Swami at the Dinner table....I was one of the 3 sikhs who got up and left...remaining 4 including a BABA JI type stayed and ate the JOOTH of the Swami in order to not offend the Swamis Malaysian political minister !! THIS is the TYPE OF SITUATION the line in SRM seeks to PREVENT....its a catch 22 situation..HOW does ONE SECURE the INDEPENDENCE OF MIND of a KHALSA....without getting the "horns" locked with those who cry FOUL....like in "How dare a khalsa say he cant eat this food..am I a leper or what ??..how do we resolve this..its a reality...eat it and be damned..dont eat and be damned..????

    Lets have the posts NOW...
     
    • Like Like x 6
  15. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Re: The Concept of Jooth/Juth ?

    Gyani jiThose are two good points.

    This is all the SRM says (if you find the right copy that is) A baptized Sikh is liable for chastisement if One who eats/drinks Left-overs of the unbaptised or the fallen Sikhs. Easy enough at face value.

    That is not such a big deal. The problem is it gets stormed up into all kinds of prohibitions and rules. In the end it does make a brahmin of an amritdhari. That happens betwixt and between Sikhs at gurdwara or in groups at home, at school. "Well better not eat at so-and-so's house/party because of the karmas, because of the pots, because it might be left over, because it may be prepared by a fallen Sikh." Also, "Skip langar at that gurdwara because it is prepared by a sehajdhari!" So instead of eating/drinking together as one brotherhood of equals, the exact opposite thing happens. Some are clean and some are unclean. And keep the food of the dalit/unbaptized away from me and mine.

    The common sense solution is something most of the rest of the world already suspects. Don't eat left-overs of anyone you don't know, preferably eat only left-overs from your own refrigerator. I am glad you walked out of the swami celebration after sussing out the hors d'oeuvres. That was disgusting.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  16. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
    Expand Collapse
    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,623
    Likes Received:
    14,189
    and just see the "torment" Britons etc are going thru when Tesco admitted feeding them Horsemeat from Romanian slaughterhouses (totally unhygienic ??) instead of beef ?? isnt that the same as "eating" a swamis left overs to prove my spirituality ?? ha ha i dont suppose anyone can get it right...Guru ji had something in mind thats alltogether different form what some AKJ types have in mind...Day vs Night...horsemeat vs beef..?? isnt a horse also a mammal..like the pig..the lamb..the cow..the camel..whatever..so much mind searching..tormenting..all for what ?? The 1429 pages of SGGS say something 360 degrees different !!! What you eta may be bad/good for PHYSICAL BODY..BUt the Mind.mann/soul is NOT affected by diet food spirtuality is immune to this..and YES FOOD/DIETS etc is one powerful MIND CONTROL PSYCHOLOGY many millineums:icecreammunda: old...
     
    • Like Like x 4
  17. Ishna

    Ishna
    Expand Collapse
    On hiatus
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,942
    Likes Received:
    5,002
    You don't have to worry about the left-overs of this little unbaptised Sikh.. I never LEAVE any left-overs hahahaha om-nom-nom-nom :interestedkudi: :icecreamkaur::icecreamkudi: :sippingcoffee: :veryhappykaur:
     
    • Like Like x 4
  18. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
    Expand Collapse
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2004
    Messages:
    4,560
    Likes Received:
    6,989
    The dogmas imposed by AKJ, Taksalis and others have made this beautiful life of pragmatism into the cesspool of Brahamnism. With these practices of jooth and such, they have turned themselves into the worst Brahmins who practice Apartheid in the name of Sikhi shamelessly.

    Such is in the heart and it can only be obtained by using the only Tide- The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

    Tejwant Singh

    PS: Horse meat is not bad. It is served in some chic restaurants in Las Vegas. I bought some meat Lasagna from Fresh N Easy (Tesco's American daughter). I have no idea how much horse meat it had.
     
    • Like Like x 7
    #17 Tejwant Singh, Feb 12, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
  19. Hardip Singh

    Hardip Singh India
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2009
    Messages:
    323
    Likes Received:
    501
    Re: The Concept of Jooth/Juth ?

    This is Bibek and not Jhooth as being dicussed.
     
  20. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Re: The Concept of Jooth/Juth ?

    It comes from a web page entitled Jhoot. I did not title the web page. Very much connected to the discussion of jooth. The Gurmatbibek folks titled it that way.

    Beg to differ with you because Jooth and dietary bibek are equated by some members of the panth. And that is why it is difficult to get a clear reading on exactly what jooht is.


    Title and first part of the article:
     
    • Like Like x 4
    #19 spnadmin, Feb 12, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2013
  21. findingmyway

    findingmyway
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer Contributor Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2010
    Messages:
    1,667
    Likes Received:
    3,767
    Whenever this topic comes up I have one fundamental question.

    How can the concept of jhooth/joot and the concept of langar be reconciled?
     
    • Like Like x 5
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page