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Islam The Concept of Hell and Heaven in Sikhi

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by ChampionDebater3000, Nov 15, 2009.

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  1. ChampionDebater3000

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    My question arises after noticing that almost all the major religions in the world have the concept of heaven and hell within their belief system. Th Abrahamic faiths suggest that God has created Heaven and Hell just like this earth. How does this apply in Sikhi/Gurmatt? IS hell an actual place in which God punishes those souls which disobeyed His Commands and spread corruption and mischief on this earth? or is there another explanation that can be made up? please dont be shy to answer the question.
     
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  3. Admin Singh

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  4. ChampionDebater3000

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    its sad i had to call u shy for a response...for which i am grateful however that post is years old! so please dont try to sweep me under the carpet, also theres no real debate on the topic, i wish to have an active talk on this topic as i have noticed a lot of confusion within the Sikh community on whether these places are real or not. (one friend said yes, another said no.) please clear any misconceptions if what u believe is true; Is hell and heaven a real place?
     
  5. Admin Singh

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    What are you talking about dude?

    Fear Whom? If you have anything to say about your own understanding only then we can debate. You asked a question, i have guided you to a discussion already going on this topic. The topic may be years old but it still as relevant as ever.

    The first trait of any Champion Debator would be to clearly state his own concept of Heaven and Hell and then put questions to others?

    Inshah Allah! :happysingh: There are many people, who would like to debate?
     
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  6. ChampionDebater3000

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    i believe that heaven and hell are real places that people go to after their life on this earth. which one they go to depends on their deeds on earth which will be weighed out on the day of judgement. hell is a punishment and heaven a reward. is this the same with you? there are states of mind in this life that may resemble punishment like misery and reward like joy, but heaven and hell are actual places where the punishment is severe and the reward is everlasting.
     
  7. Admin Singh

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    Dear Unknown?? (Are you afraid/shy telling your real name?) :)

    The next time you used adjectives like don't be shy or don't be afraid or don't be this/that or/and any such analogy, you will get a strict warning for intimidation and trying to push your point of view through coercion? Please be informed! Present your views and wait for others to respond. :)

    What makes you believe there is a place like Heaven and Hell in afterlife?
     
  8. ChampionDebater3000

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    my name is Qasim. my source of belief is from the last and final word of God (the Quran) brought to mankind from the final Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him). the messengers of all times and nations/communities informed people of an afterlife, a heaven and hell (which is why this concept can be found in almost all religions). I believe these places exist just as the angels exist, the shaytaans, etc (even though we dont see them). so how does a Sikh understand heaven and Hell? are they real or not?
     
  9. Admin Singh

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    And What makes you believe this? What is your definition of belief?
     
  10. ChampionDebater3000

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    question dodger :down:
     
  11. Admin Singh

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    Why? You are making strong statements and we need to understand from where these statements are coming from! Nothing wrong with it! Once we understand from where you are coming from, only then we can hope to understand your belief systems. Right?

    :happysingh:
     
  12. ChampionDebater3000

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    irrelavent to the topic :down:

    we need to understand from where these statements are coming from

    not really, the topic is addressing Sikhi views on heaven and hell not on the Quran. i was simply stating that my source of belief is the Quran. but stating that the Quran is the final word of God doesn't sit comfertably with you, (because u proably dont believe that) but thats my belief and i hope u can respect it just as i may respect ur beliefs. also whats the use of defining belief if we both believe in God?

    Once we understand from where you are coming from, only then we can hope to understand your belief systems.


    if u r interested in my beliefs then i am a Muslim. do u have anything to add to the topic? any beliefs you may have on heaven and hell? what angle are u trying to take here? :hmm:
     
  13. spnadmin

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    C- debater ji

    Here is how I have been tracking the discussion now that I have returned to the forum ji. My reactions to your comments in-line and impression to the entire statement to follow. It will take me several posts, forgive me. But the exercise is a good one for any reader who wants an analysis of how daweh works.


    So the only reason why I am taking the time to do this is really for the benefit of young Sikhs who are dragged into these periodic episodes of Muslim "dawah" which is deliberately designed to mislead you and eventually demoralize you.

    So far here is the way it works :happykaur:


    1. A statement is made or a question is asked, based on an assertion, that seems innocent and possibly true.
    2. After close examination the statement is really shaky in terms of how true it really is based on the facts.
    3. After making a factually shaky statement, the daweah-vatchnak follows up with some questions that are really assertions that pit Sikhism against Islam.
    4. The final bit is to suggest you might be shy. That is a kind one. Sometimes the suggestion is that you are stupid or ignorant or incapable of thinking for yourself.

    Let's proceed.
     
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  14. spnadmin

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    C- debater ji

    You have just in your previous post made it abundantly clear that you believe in heaven and hell -- giving the reason that God needs some way to reward and also punish those who have spread evil. So why are you repeating yourself?

    Your last statement up there -- heaven and hell are actual places where the punishment is severe and the reward is everlasting - that is your idea of a just outcome.Be honest and admit that it is your belief, and not a statement of fact.

    What you have to keep in mind is that the Sikh vision of the Almighty is one who is without hatred or enmity. So why would he want to punish his Creation. In fact in Gurbani -- The Almighty delights in his Creation. We have to understand that in Sikhism the devout are freed by the Satguru to find Union with him. That is our reward. Unfortunately, union with the Satguru was an idea enjoyed by many Sufis in Islam and it earned them torture and death.

    Conclusion -- we are not going to get very far in this debate. In Sikhism we have a Satguru who trusts His Creation. Why not? He trusts that which he has created. In Islam God is busy handing out rewards and punishments. In Islam it is said that God is most compassionate. So why did his followers make a point of torturing and burning Sufis -- who were Muslim? Ah ! They are Sufis -- So nothing is questioned.
     
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  15. spnadmin

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    Ok - Here we have it. In your 3rd post you almost admit what you are up to.

    In the practice of "dawah" -- First your opponent ( C-debater ji in this case) will say that you his opponent have a shaky position in the debate. He will imply or say that your fundamental religious beliefs are weak on logic. He will then say that his beliefs in Islam are clean, clear and and sturdy.

    This is the argument you are supposed to knock down if you are a Sikh. But the trick in debate is not to accept the invitation. Don't debate the personal declaration of faith offered by the debater.

    Why not? Well it is harder to prevail if you are on the defensive. Surely you can see in the earlier posts how C- debater ji tried to put the forum on the defensive. Also - why bother arguing about the personal assumptions of another person or his religion. They are starting points for practicing a religion. Nothing is gained by arguing first assumptions. If it is not your religion, then don't bother to respond. :):)


    So I am going to move on to the next point. Hope you understand the point i just made. It is a trick. Ignore it.
     
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  16. spnadmin

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    C-debater ji

    I notice that when Aman Singh asked you to defend your own position you resorted to a personal slur. You lose points for this you know.

    From your point of view that makes sense. At this point in the debate you are not sure if you have control of the offensive position. For one thing not too much has happened yet. You posted when half the world was asleep. So far your claims are really feelers -- put out to see how people will respond. So as Aman Singh ji began to call you out on your half-baked claims and statements that are short on facts -- what did you do? You called him a question-dodger.

    Dear reader ji,

    That is another popular strategy in dawah. I have myself been both a witness and a victim of this strategy. The dawah-vakhnak needs time to develop his platform. While doing that he has to appear to be indifferent or scornful of questions that come early in the debate. That makes him look confident. And it means that the person called "question dodger" has to work harder to get back into the argument.

    Just some observations. if and if this continues -- young Sikhs ji -- one or more of the moderators will continue to autopsy this popular practice of dawah.

    Don't feel bad. They actually give classes in it. At beginners, intermediate and advance levels , and advertise on the Internet.

    I predict that very soon what you will read are screaming accusations against me for one or more of my many faults as a human being. Apologies. ;)

    Sat Nam.
     
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  17. Randip Singh

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    In your belief of heaven do you get lots of virgins there to look after you if you crash aeroplanes into buildings killing thousands of innocent people?:confused:
     
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  18. spnadmin

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    Forgive my misspelling. It is "dawah" not "daweh" I will correct my error.
     
  19. ChampionDebater3000

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    Yes, I was correct. It is one of those Sikhism vs Islam debates

    well done einstein, i'm a Muslim with the username 'ChampionDebater3000' can really see how u came to the conclusion of an islamic/sikh debate. i'm not surprised that you needed to go through a whole "preliminary analysis" to figure that out. Your brain must be hurting. have a rest.


    So the only reason why I am taking the time to do this is really for the benefit of young Sikhs who are dragged into these periodic episodes of Muslim "daweh" which is deliberately designed to mislead you and eventually demoralize you.

    no u are paving and cementing into the minds of the young Sikhs how to read a debate (before it has even commenced!) paranoid and judgmental at the same time! allow the discussion to actually go into some depth at least, so that the truth may be seen by all, dont try and smear and distract the vision of people, allow them to judge for themselves who is more well informed. this shaytaani tactic was used by the disbelievers when Muhammad was revealing the Quran to the world, they would say he's lying! its magic! dont listen or he'll put you under a spell! one time a man was on his way to meet the Prophet of God when he was stopped and his head was filled with lies and nonsense on the intentions of the Messenger. The poor fool believed them and promised to stay away, he further put cotton buds in each ear to avoid hearing the revelation when if he entered the presence of the Messenger. But suddenly the man had a thought, "how did i allow other people decide for me who is speaking truth and who is speaking falsehood. He took out his ear buds, and as soon as he heard the revelation he converted." (because that is the effect of trut..it obliterates falsehood. you can run and hide behind people and events all day long....but the words of the Quran are true. so just like the disbelievers to the old man, u are filling peoples minds with lies and propaganda making sure that the Quran is the last book they read or study independently. how flimsy a mind is when it cant think for itself which is what u need from 'young Sikhs' for more brainwashing. you have so many misconceptions of Islam its unbeleievable. the best thing to do would be to forget everything you've heard and been told about Islam and seek it for urself. thats the only way you will know that the Quran is indeed God's word.

    Why not? Well it is harder to prevail (in the debate) if you are on the defensive.

    no the prevailer is the one who holds Truth. you claim to hold truth yet the truth you hold can't fight my (supposed) falsehood? howcome?

    If it is not your religion, then don't bother to respond.

    wow is this what Sikhism teaches about the 'open mind'. shouldn't one question ones beliefs or blindly follow? strange statement you make. all this retaliation is a clear sign of fear to me. you may claim you dont fear but i know u do.but you shouldn't fear the truth, if u believe what you believe you should be able to say yes and stand up to all questioners! hell and heaven in sikhism? i'll tell you all about it and i'll defend my beliefs also! but thats not the case because deep down i dont think anyone truly knows the Sikh stance on heaven and hell or doesn't want to know for whatever reason.

    God in Sikhism does not issue commands. Nothing happens without His Hukam.

    contradictory and confused statement. if God did not issue any commands then why keep a turban? ok so these are the commands of the Guru's? you listen to the command of men but not of God? i see.

    but that is an unfortunate translation with a Western Judaeo Christian twist.

    u lie. hukam means command and without God's command you wouldn't be reading this right now. y are u trying to twist and turn everything? u are fleeing from ur own book!

    What you have to keep in mind is that the Sikh vision of the Almighty is one who is without hatred or enmity.

    look what i found. looks like your 'Sikh vision' lacks any truth like much of ur other 'analysis'.

    Page 1245, Line 17
    ਜਮ ਦਰਿ ਬਧੇ ਮਾਰੀਅਹਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਇਆ ॥੨੧॥
    जम दरि बधे मारीअहि नानक हरि भाइआ ॥२१॥
    Jam ḏar baḏẖe mārī▫ah Nānak har bẖā▫i▫ā. ||21||
    Bound and gagged at Death's door, they are beaten and punished; O Nanak, it pleases the Will of the Lord. ||21||
    Guru Ram Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

    In Islam God is busy handing out rewards and punishments.

    its clear to me how completely ignorant you are of your own religion and more importantly of Islam. dont you know that without Islam there would be no Sikhism? it burns inside i know.
    not once in the Quran does it state that God is pleased by punishment. but it does in sggs. So which God do you believe in? one who likes punishing? i know i must have strung a nerve by now. U claim to believe in one God but you lie. the God of Islam is a different God to the one you claim to believe in...and you may say yes, but heres the truth, Allah is mentioned in the SGGS too.

    In Islam it is said that God is most compassionate. So why did his followers make a point of torturing and burning Sufis

    ok heres the main point between Sikh and Muslim dialogues, when men commit acts of crimes based on their own judgement, they cannot be ascribed to Islam or God, so when I see a sikh man drink i cant say look what sikhism teaches men to do! that would be really stupid and ignorant. if i do that knowingly then i fool myself...knowingly. and thats what your doing with Muslims and Islam. by running from the quran and its undeniable evidence u choose to look for faults in Muslims and in the Shariah (at the hands of evil men) and then push this blame onto God and Islam? turn away from all that...clear your mind and take the test...read the quran if u have any courage.

    union with the Satguru was an idea enjoyed by many Sufis in Islam and it earned them torture and death.

    yes union with Allah is the essence of Islam, you claim that sufi's 'used to enjoy this idea' when in fact this it is the essence of Islam, to submit and reconnect. which is still the case today. The first Sufi was Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who gave knowledge to a selected few who then spread this knowledge and conquered the world. it is this same knowledge today that rests with the saints. Many have come into contact withvSufis and learnt great truths from them. you should know that.

    why were those particular sufis killed? because people cannot handle the outward intoxicated expressions of union, when a sufi once said, "I am God" he was put to death for the people of lower spiritual stature could not understand the essence of the words. Sikhism is actually edited Sufism. but without the belief of Allah and His Messenger that's where the downfall lies.

    I predict that very soon what you will read are screaming accusations against me for one or more of my many faults as a human being.

    this is ur ego making sure that any remarks made by me are already expected and ur pride cannot be hurt. well its not my intention to hurt anyone, jus to debate on the topic of Heaven and Hell, but you guys are so afraid of us 'serial dawah people' lurking in the dark waiting to convert you haha! u scare urself. the truth is there to be read and understood by everyone. all young sikhs, if u need a mediator between your eyes and between your ears when the topic of islam is discussed then know that you are fleeing from the truth. if u claim to be brave then read the Quran and stand up to the tests Allah asks you if you are as strong as u say u are. these elders around you that tell you they know best dont know whats good for themselves nevermind u too. so keep an open mind and dont believe the hype. 9/11 was an inside job. look for yourself.

    moderators will continue to autopsy this popular practice of daweh.
    Don't feel bad. They actually give classes in it. At beginners, intermediate and advance levels , and advertise on the Internet.

    whatever you say/do the word of God remains, your acknowledgment of its existence is missing. it's the fastest growing religion for a reason. SGGS speaks of God as a description. But the Quran is closer still. and a new Muslim would tell you this well. try opening up and speaking to some. step out of these boxes of fear constructed by the 'threat' of Islam to Sikhism.

    many of ur comments show that shaytaan has already tricked you in building defenses around your senses against the Quran and His Messenger. but time will tell who was right and who was wrong. We Muslims invite you to debate and you run and flee from the topic and instead you throw stones because you dont have the real ammo necessary to defeat Islam in strength or size. Puffed up pride and a false ego will get you nowhere. Wars and history will not bring you no truth no matter how much you remember. if you want to know the truth about heaven and hell then read the quran. dont be afraid to, no matter what you hear or see from shaytaans friends. for God knows shaytaan hates Islam.

    Quran 2:91 For when they are told, "Believe in what God has bestowed from on high," they reply, "We believe [only] in what has been bestowed on us"-and they deny the truth of everything else, although it be a truth confirming the one already in their possession. read the quran...Guru Nanak did.

    u are afraid that if hell is real then you could be punished by God (a God that punishes..yes even in Sikhism - so all those times u insulted Islam and Muslims for worshipping a God that punishes u were speaking of the same God u are supposed to believe in.) You may say i am giving dawah and yes i am, in order to give the invitation or message diallogue has to ensue. but u are doing reverse dawah, another clever shaytaani trick which u may have been taught but unaware of. reverse proseletysing is a term i use for when you downgrade all religions but u're own. this is reverse proseletysing. and this site (or sikhs?) are experts at it. You haved fooled yourself and now you fool others but God knows best who is right and who is wrong.

    and Randip Ji please grow up a little,

    In your belief of heaven do you get lots of virgins there to look after you if you crash aeroplanes into buildings killing thousands of innocent people?

    1984 was no joke. neither is 9/11 so show some respect. after all these years of believing and following u are lacking a mind...where is your reasoning? if u had an independant mind rather than being brainwashed you would know that 9/11 was an inside job.

    وَمَا نُرْسِلُ الْمُرْسَلِينَ إِلَّا مُبَشِّرِينَ وَمُنذِرِينَ وَيُجَادِلُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا بِالْبَاطِلِ لِيُدْحِضُوا بِهِ الْحَقَّ وَاتَّخَذُوا آيَاتِي وَمَا أُنذِرُوا هُزُوًا
    (18:56)
    Quran 18:56 But We send [Our] message-bearers only as heralds of glad tidings and as warners - whereas those who are bent on denying the truth contend [against them] with fallacious arguments, so as to render void the truth thereby, and to make My messages and warnings a target of their mockery.
     
  20. spnadmin

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    Sangat ji

    I was right wasn't I -- about personal slurs and invective to follow! BTW C- debater spent quite a few hours staring at this thread before making his reply. Took quite some time. Well if anyone else has a question for me I will be glad to respond. Just remember.

    The rules of dawah do not require the debater to be reasonable or even informed. :D Now it would be foolhardy of me to go back point by point in the thread above, tackling each false or baseless claim. That is what C- debater wants me to do.

    I can remember being in this position once in Seattle -- on my way to a conference hotel from the airport. So I just let the cab driver blow off steam, and eventually he fell quiet.
     
  21. ChampionDebater3000

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    Page 4, Line 4
    ਅਸੰਖ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ ਕੂੜੇ ਫਿਰਾਹਿ ॥
    असंख कूड़िआर कूड़े फिराहि ॥
    Asaʼnkẖ kūṛi▫ār kūṛe firāhi.
    Countless liars, wandering lost in their lies.
    Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok[/SIZE]
     
    #20 ChampionDebater3000, Nov 16, 2009
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