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The Ball Is in Our Court

Discussion in 'Gurmat Vichaar' started by pk70, Nov 6, 2008.

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  1. pk70

    pk70
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    The Ball is in our court




    In the following Shabad, Guru speaks about Union with the Lord and the superficial acts people do in the name the Lord, he says that actually those acts are hindrance in the pursuit of the union. Please read on
    ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ਬਾਹਰੁ ਧੋਇ ਅੰਤਰੁ ਮਨੁ ਮੈਲਾ ਦੁਇ ਠਉਰ ਅਪੁਨੇ ਖੋਏ ਈਹਾ ਕਾਮਿ ਕ੍ਰੋਧਿ ਮੋਹਿ ਵਿਆਪਿਆ ਆਗੈ ਮੁਸਿ ਮੁਸਿ ਰੋਏ
    Āsā mėhlā 5. Bāhar ḏẖo▫e anṯar man mailā ḏu▫e ṯẖa▫ur apune kẖo▫e. Īhā kām kroḏẖ mohi vi▫āpi▫ā āgai mus mus ro▫e. ||1||
    Bani of Fifth Nanak. In essence:. People who do pilgrimage and wash their bodies but do not clean the filth of the heart, they lose their place here and after. Whose mind is engrossed in lust and anger, repents hereafter
    ਜੇਹੜਾਮਨੁੱਖ (ਤੀਰਥ ਆਦਿਕਾਂ ਤੇ ਨਿਰਾ) ਪਿੰਡਾ ਧੋ ਕੇ ਅੰਦਰਲਾ ਮਨ (ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਨਾਲ) ਮੈਲਾ ਹੀਰੱਖਦਾ ਹੈ ਉਹ ਲੋਕ ਪਰਲੋਕ ਆਪਣੇ ਦੋਵੇਂ ਥਾਂ ਗਵਾ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈਇਸ ਲੋਕ ਵਿਚ ਰਹਿੰਦਿਆਂਕਾਮ-ਵਾਸ਼ਨਾ ਵਿਚ, ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਵਿਚ, ਮੋਹ ਵਿਚ, ਫਸਿਆ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਅਗਾਂਹ ਪਰਲੋਕ ਵਿਚ ਜਾਕੇ ਹਟਕੋਰੇ ਲੈ ਲੈ ਰੋਂਦਾ ਹੈ
    In this Guru Vaak, Guru says that the efforts commonly we use to clean ourselves from out side, are superficial, filth is inside not out side and through pilgrimage it cannot be cleaned. Being deeply engrossed in lust and anger, at the end, repentance is what is left with.
    ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਭਜਨ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਹੈ ਹੋਰਾ ਵਰਮੀ ਮਾਰੀ ਸਾਪੁ ਮਰਈ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੁਨਈ ਡੋਰਾ ਰਹਾਉ
    Govinḏ bẖajan kī maṯ hai horā. varmī mārī sāp na mar▫ī nām na sun▫ī dorā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
    In essence: To do Lord’s meditation is done with different kind of wisdom. By merely destroying snake-hole, the snake doesn’t die, one acts like this because the deaf doesn’t hear Lords name.
    (ਹੇਭਾਈ!) ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਭਜਨ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੀ ਅਕਲ ਹੋਰ ਕਿਸਮ ਦੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ (ਉਸ ਵਿਚ ਵਿਖਾਵਾਨਹੀਂ ਹੁੰਦਾ)ਜੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਨਹੀਂ ਸੁਣਦਾ, ਜੇ ਨਾਮ ਵਲੋਂ ਬੋਲਾਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ (ਤਾਂ ਬਾਹਰਲੇ ਧਾਰਮਕ ਕਰਮ ਇਉਂ ਹੀ ਹਨ ਜਿਵੇਂ ਸੱਪ ਨੂੰ ਮਾਰਨ ਦੇ ਥਾਂ ਸੱਪਦੀ ਖੁੱਡ ਨੂੰ ਕੁੱਟੀ ਜਾਣਾ), ਪਰ ਜੇ ਖੁੱਡ ਨੂੰ ਕੁੱਟਦੇ ਜਾਈਏ ਤਾਂ ਇਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਸੱਪਨਹੀਂ ਮਰਦਾ (ਬਾਹਰਲੇ ਕਰਮਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਮਨ ਵੱਸ ਵਿਚ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਉਂਦਾ)ਰਹਾਉ
    Here is the essence of the Message is that Har-Simran needs different wisdom than we use in context of worldly affair. It is about becoming ego free, extremely sincere in our acts, game playing will not help because otherwise all these efforts are just like destroying the snake hole and leaving the snake alive. Our primal negative forces act like the snake to destroy our spiritual goal.
    ਮਾਇਆ ਕੀ ਕਿਰਤਿ ਛੋਡਿ ਗਵਾਈ ਭਗਤੀ ਸਾਰ ਜਾਨੈ ਬੇਦ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਕਉ ਤਰਕਨਿ ਲਾਗਾ ਤਤੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਪਛਾਨੈ
    Mā▫i▫ā kī kiraṯ cẖẖod gavā▫ī bẖagṯī sār na jānai. Beḏ sāsṯar ka▫o ṯarkan lāgā ṯaṯ jog na pacẖẖānai. ||2||
    In essence: Though one ( like sanyaasi) abandons worldly affairs but doesn’t know what really is Lord’s devotion.. Though such person does debate Veda and Puranas, real meaning of Union with Lord does not understand.

    (ਜਿਸਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੇ ਤਿਆਗ ਦੇ ਭੁਲੇਖੇ ਵਿਚ ਆਜੀਵਕਾ ਖ਼ਾਤਰ) ਮਾਇਆ ਕਮਾਣ ਦਾ ਉੱਦਮ ਛੱਡ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਉਹਭਗਤੀ ਦੀ ਕਦਰ ਭੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਣਦਾ, ਜੇਹੜਾ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਵੇਦ ਸ਼ਾਸਤਰ ਆਦਿਕ ਧਰਮ-ਪੁਸਤਕਾਂ ਨੂੰਸਿਰਫ਼ ਬਹਸਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਵਰਤਣਾ ਸ਼ੁਰੂ ਕਰ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਉਹ (ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਦੀ) ਅਸਲੀਅਤ ਨਹੀਂਸਮਝਦਾ, ਉਹ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਮਿਲਾਪ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਮਝਦਾ
    .Here we must understand why abandoning the world and doing academic debates on religious sculptures will not help in achieving “union with the Lord” In the following Guru Vaak, the reason of this failure is expressed. Exactly as Guru ji says, we just beat and destroy the hole not the snake ( the real culprit) that ruins us spiritually. What we believe to purify is not important, it is the purity of the heart(it is filthy because of negative primal forces) is required.
    ਉਘਰਿ ਗਇਆ ਜੈਸਾ ਖੋਟਾ ਢਬੂਆ ਨਦਰਿ ਸਰਾਫਾ ਆਇਆ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਜਾਨੈ ਉਸ ਤੇ ਕਹਾ ਛਪਾਇਆ
    Ugẖar ga▫i▫ā jaisā kẖotā dẖabū▫ā naḏar sarāfā ā▫i▫ā. Anṯarjāmī sabẖ kicẖẖ jānai us ṯe kahā cẖẖapā▫i▫ā. ||3||
    In essence: As counterfeit coin is pointed out by the experts, same way such people who lack sincerity and are only in show off will be exposed by the Lord as He is knower of hearts., what can be hidden from Him?

    ਜਿਵੇਂਜਦੋਂ ਕੋਈ ਖੋਟਾ ਰੁਪਇਆ ਸਰਾਫ਼ਾਂ ਦੀ ਨਜ਼ਰੇ ਪੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ ਉਸ ਦਾ ਖੋਟ ਪਰਤੱਖ ਦਿੱਸਪੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ; (ਤਿਵੇਂ ਜੇਹੜਾ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਅੰਦਰੋਂ ਤਾਂ ਵਿਕਾਰੀ ਹੈ, ਪਰ ਬਾਹਰੋਂ ਧਾਰਮਿਕਭੇਖੀ) ਉਹ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਪਾਸੋਂ (ਆਪਣਾ ਅੰਦਰਲਾ ਖੋਟ) ਲੁਕਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਕਦਾ, ਹਰੇਕ ਦੇ ਦਿਲ ਦੀਜਾਣਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਉਸ ਦੀ ਹਰੇਕ ਕਰਤੂਤ ਨੂੰ ਜਾਣਦਾ ਹੈ
    When our actions are transparent to Him, from whom we hide? It is a wake up call to us who try to justify our actions with our own assumptions. Guru advises us to live under His fear, in His love. He knows the hearts, and we must believe in this fact and change the course of our hypocrtical behavior/acts.
    ਕੂੜਿ ਕਪਟਿ ਬੰਚਿ ਨਿੰਮੁਨੀਆਦਾ ਬਿਨਸਿ ਗਇਆ ਤਤਕਾਲੇ ਸਤਿ ਸਤਿ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਨਕਿ ਕਹਿਆ ਅਪਨੈ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਦੇਖੁ ਸਮਾਲੇ ੪੨
    Kūṛ kapat bancẖ nimmunī▫āḏā binas ga▫i▫ā ṯaṯkāle. Saṯ saṯ saṯ Nānak kahi▫ā apnai hirḏai ḏekẖ samāle. ||4||3||42||
    In essence: as falsehood, crookedness and fraud do not have solid foundation, they are finished instantly. Nanak states an actual fact that the Name of True Lord should be held in the heart and should see Him present within.

    ਮਨੁੱਖਦੀ ਇਸ ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚ ਚਾਰ-ਰੋਜ਼ਾ ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ ਹੈ ਪਰ ਇਹ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਵਿਚ ਠੱਗੀ-ਫ਼ਰੇਬ ਵਿਚਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਲੁਟਾ ਕੇ ਬੜੀ ਛੇਤੀ ਆਤਮਕ ਮੌਤੇ ਮਰ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਨਾਨਕ ਨੇ ਇਹਗੱਲ ਯਕੀਨੀ ਤੌਰ ਤੇ ਸੱਚ ਕਹੀ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਵਸਾ ਕੇਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਵੱਸਦਾ ਵੇਖ (ਇਹੀ ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਹੈ, ਇਹੀ ਜੀਵਨ-ਮਨੋਰਥ ਹੈ)੪੨
    Guru has given a detailed result of hypocritical practices in context of being with the Lord; Guru states that filth is in side in the heart that triggers bad behavior, and it should be cleaned, outside cleaning is worthless in the name of the Lord. What we do and hide is wide open to the Lord, to whom we are deceiving? Answer it painful, it is just a self deception. Above all studies, debates, and other acts related to know Lord, is to see His presence within. Unfortunately, as long as the mind is filthy due to greed, anger, lust, ego and deep attachment to worldly accomplishments, His presence within cannot be realized. Cleaning is mandatory, but it should be done within not outside. Guru has given the message; ball is in the court of Guru-followers!


    To be continued
     
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  3. pk70

    pk70
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    We are aware of the wisdom we use to succeed in the worldly affairs; we know how to beat others and be successful, and how to grind the axe. So what is the other wisdom, Guru ji is talking in this Shabad, lets discuss in detail. Guru Nanak’s views about other wisdom which is different than our wisdom are crystal clear in context of its uselessness.
    ਸਹਸ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਇਕ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਲਿ Man may possess thousands and lacs of wits, but not even one (goes with him) avails him in the Lord's court. (Japji)
    See here, all other wisdom fails to obtain the goal, they are just not helpful, so do not knock at the wrong door if there is longing for the Lord.
    First Nanak actually answers it, read on; it appears Fifth Nanak is just interpreting it further through addressing our incorrect acts. Here is the wisdom explained by Guru..
    ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਈਐ ਤਾ ਸਹੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਅਉਰੁ ਕੈਸੀ ਚਤੁਰਾਈ ਸਹੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੈ ਸੋ ਦਿਨੁ ਲੇਖੈ ਕਾਮਣਿ ਨਉ ਨਿਧਿ ਪਾਈ (SGGS 722)
    Āp gavā▫ī▫ai ṯā saho pā▫ī▫ai a▫or kaisī cẖaṯurā▫ī. Saho naḏar kar ḏekẖai so ḏin lekẖai kāmaṇ na▫o niḏẖ pā▫ī
    In essence: If feeling of” I” is eliminated, only then Lord is realized otherwise what is the use of other wisdom/cleverness? If that is done, the day, the Lord looks with Grace that is worth all and, the soul-bride obtained everything (so known powers)
    In spiritual experience, “I” plays a role of a wall; it blocks every chance to experience joy of spirituality. Guru ji says, first, get rid of” I”. Tear down the wall of hindrance. Other cleverness, through which we succeed in this world, will not be helpful in pursuit of union with the Lord. How the Lord’s grace is obtained, Guru ji expresses beautifully in the next Guru Vaak
    Continued
    Now how one becomes wise, read on, it is explained very clearly and compare with what we think is right.
    ਆਪਣੇ ਕੰਤ ਪਿਆਰੀ ਸਾ ਸੋਹਾਗਣਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾ ਸਭਰਾਈ ਐਸੈ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਸਹਜ ਕੀ ਮਾਤੀ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਭਾਇ ਸਮਾਣੀ ਸੁੰਦਰਿ ਸਾਇ ਸਰੂਪ ਬਿਚਖਣਿ ਕਹੀਐ ਸਾ ਸਿਆਣੀ
    Āpṇe kanṯ pi▫ārī sā sohagaṇ Nānak sā sabẖrā▫ī. Aise rang rāṯī sahj kī māṯī ahinis bẖā▫e samāṇī. Sunḏar sā▫e sarūp bicẖkẖaṇ kahī▫ai sā si▫āṇī. ||4||2||4||
    In essence: The soul-bride who is beloved of the Lord is suhagan(who has a husband) and is respected by all. She remains imbued with Lord day and night, and is totally absorbed in Lord’s love. She is beautiful and she should be called wise.
    It is about living in His love by eliminating “ I-force” Guru advice is not to depend upon cleverness, or the intellect that inflate us about being knowledgeable, problem solvers or questioning the existence of the Lord. It just will not help, it is useless and all efforts guided by its inspiration are also useless. In the following, read what Guru ji asks.



    To be continued
     
  4. Astroboy

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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    PK70 Ji,

    Thank you for starting such a wonderful thread. What do you understand from this verse, kindly explain.

    ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਚਰਣ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਵਸਾਇ
    गुर के चरण हिरदै वसाइ ॥
    Gur ke cẖaraṇ hirḏai vasā▫e.
    Enshrine the Feet of the Guru within your heart;
     
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    #3 Astroboy, Nov 7, 2008
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  5. pk70

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    Namjap ji,
    Here are my humble views:
    “ charan hirde ch vasane” is an idiomatic expression, to understand it, you have to look at other expression like this. “parran heth rakhna” means to keep under control. So to remain “ charan heth” means to remain under control. From here, “charan hirde me vasoune” comes, which means in above Guru Vaak, remain surrendered to what Guru says and act accordingly, in other words, in complete humbleness, Guru teaching is to be kept in heart. Since it is idiomatic expression, it should be translated as per its meaning not as individual words. If you read the next Guru Vaak that follows the above Guru Vaak, meaning is clearer
    ਦੁਖ ਦੁਸਮਨ ਤੇਰੀ ਹਤੈ ਬਲਾਇ दुख दुसमन तेरी हतै बलाइ ॥२॥
    Ḏukẖ ḏusman ṯerī haṯai balā▫e. ||2||
    So if Guru teaching is made a base for actions we take, here is the result, Your pain(sorrows), enemy and other calamity will be destroyed.
    Guru teaching changes actions, then reactions will be different. Without Guru Teaching, we act according to our own “wisdom” that triggers pain and other calamities. So the followers are advised to keep Guru teaching in heart. With feeling of Guru Presence within, our behavior changes towards out side world,
    There are other expressions in SGGS Ji like” charan dhone”= show full respect/reverence, charna dee dhoor= in complete humbleness, charana ch rehna= to live in refuge of some one in humbleness.
    This is the way I understand it, others are well entitled to their opinions.
     
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    #4 pk70, Nov 7, 2008
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  6. pk70

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    Guru ji states that those should be consulted who have experience, in the following Guru Bachan, it is clear that it is not our wisdom but others experience of Lord that can help us because only those are qualified to answer who realized HIM. “Here the word” Suhagnee” is for those who have experienced Him, who have realized Him within
    ਜਾਇ ਪੁਛਹੁ ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਵਾਹੈ ਕਿਨੀ ਬਾਤੀ ਸਹੁ ਪਾਈਐ Go and ask the chaste brides( Suhagnee who has the Lord), by what actions is the Spouse obtained
    In the next Guru Vaak, Guru ji answers how to be wise in this context, answer is coming from an experienced one
    ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰੇ ਸੋ ਭਲਾ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਨੀਐ ਹਿਕਮਤਿ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਚੁਕਾਈਐ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਪ੍ਰੇਮਿ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਤਉ ਚਰਣੀ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਈਐ ਸਹੁ ਕਹੈ ਸੋ ਕੀਜੈ ਤਨੁ ਮਨੋ ਦੀਜੈ ਐਸਾ ਪਰਮਲੁ ਲਾਈਐ ਏਵ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਭੈਣੇ ਇਨੀ ਬਾਤੀ ਸਹੁ ਪਾਈਐ
    In essence: Accept as right whatever the Lord does and abandon own wisdom ( I- force), surrender your mind to the Lord through whom His Nam is obtained. Act as per His Ordinance by surrendering body and mind to Him; this is the way to attract Lord. Thus says “SUHAGNEE”, this is the way the Lord husband is obtained.
    It is very noticeable, our wisdom differs from “Suhagnee’s” wisdom. That is why Fifth Nanak was saying” the wisdom of the devotee is different”.
    (ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਪਤੀ-ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਮਿਲ ਪਿਆ ਹੈ, ਬੇਸ਼ਕ) ਉਹਨਾਂ ਸੁਹਾਗ ਭਾਗ ਵਾਲੀਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਪੁੱਛ ਵੇਖੋ ਕਿ ਕਿਹਨੀਂ ਗੱਲੀਂ ਖਸਮ-ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਹੈ, (ਉਹ ਇਹੀ ਉੱਤਰ ਦੇਂਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ ਕਿ) ਚਲਾਕੀ ਤੇ ਧੱਕਾ ਛੱਡ ਦਿਉ, ਜੋ ਕੁਝ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਚੰਗਾ ਸਮਝ ਕੇ (ਸਿਰ ਮੱਥੇ ਤੇ) ਮੰਨੋ, ਜਿਸ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਦਾ ਸਦਕਾ ਨਾਮ-ਵਸਤ ਮਿਲਦੀ ਹੈ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਚਰਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਮਨ ਜੋੜੋ, ਖਸਮ-ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਜੋ ਹੁਕਮ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ ਉਹ ਕਰੋ, ਆਪਣਾ ਸਰੀਰ ਤੇ ਮਨ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਹਵਾਲੇ ਕਰੋ, ਬੱਸ! ਇਹ ਸੁਗੰਧੀ (ਜਿੰਦ ਵਾਸਤੇ) ਵਰਤੋਸੋਹਾਗ ਭਾਗ ਵਾਲੀਆਂ ਇਹੀ ਆਖਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ ਕਿ ਹੇ ਭੈਣ! ਇਹਨੀਂ ਗੱਲੀਂ ਹੀ ਖਸਮ-ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਹੈ
     
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  7. pk70

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    FINAL

    If ego is there all efforts become worthless, if we are having ego intact, doing somran/praising Lord just turns out to be “mind-game. Please read on
    ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਕਹਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਮਾਰਿ ਰਹਾਉ
    Gur kā kahi▫ā man vasai ha▫umai arisnā mār. ||1|| rahā▫o.
    When one totally follows Guru Teachings, ego and avarice vanish

    ਮਃ 1
    ਹਉਮੈ ਮਮਤਾ ਮਾਰਿ ਕੈ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਖਿਆ ਉਰ ਧਾਰਿ
    Ha▫umai mamā mār kai har rāki▫ā ur ḏẖār.
    (a few are those) who overcome ego and deep attachment and keep the Lord in heart
    .
    ਮਃ 3
    ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਸਦਾ ਧਿਆਈਐ ਮਲੁ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਢੈ ਧੋਇ ਰਹਾਉ
    Har har saā ḏẖi▫ā▫ī▫ai mal ha▫umai kadai ḏẖo▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
    Recite the name of the Lord, by doing so; the filth of ego is cleaned


    So, first thing is to surrender to Guru who has experienced the Lord, in surrendering, ego should cease, after that, following Guru teaching brings fruit, a true longing to unite with the Lord is materialized; however, those who have more interest in this Maya play, need not to do any thing because interest in this Maya empowers ego more and more and chance of spiritual achievement becomes dim. Again the ball is in our court.:)
     
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  8. mahanbir singh

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    Pk70 ji,
    You have pretty good understanding about what is the root cause of our ills.It is Ego.your translation of gurbani both in English & Punjabi is marvellous. I think you shouid translate whole of SGGS in both languages.If others can do it you can do it too.
    Can i humbly ask this question?
    why God has created Ego in human beings ? i do not think animals & other beings have such an Ego.They enjoy life and oneness whereas we treat others as our enemies. Our education also teaches to compete & kill others, grab their market share etc. Inspite of so much Path Pooja we do not recognise others as part of us.Guru Gobind Singh ji advises us ' Mana ki jat sabhe eke pahichanbo' why we do not understand & obey what our Guru says? I think the best way to conquer our ego is to give credit to God what ever you achieve in Life. If you are a good doctor admit you are the best doctor but whatever i am i am because of Him(God or whheguru ji).If you dont admit you are denying God.You will never have the problem of Ego.What do you think pkji?
     
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  9. pk70

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  10. pk70

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    Mahabir Singh ji
    I forgot to tell, kindly read Patti Mehal-1, and try to understand the whole game. That is the reason I strongly believe that
    There is no conflict out there, at least the Lord hasn’t created it, and instead it( conflict) is our own creation. Sikhism advocates His being immaculate but at the same time His being presence in all. Then what went wrong if He permeates in all? Answer is simple, we just miss the fact of His being presented in all, we see out there total contrast and see Him absent from all over. That is the fall we take and create conflicts that trigger our miseries. Imagine all think about Him alike, conflicts will end; however, His show will not be as interesting as it is now. A few want to be out of it, they follow true Guru and put all efforts to be worthy of Him. Others remain in mind satisfying race. So wondrous is His game of Choupar( Patti SGGS432):)
     
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  11. Archived_Member5

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    The ego is inherent in human beings as a defence against external perceived dangers and onslaughts. Once faith and trust through understanding of the world is gained the ego vanishes and a natural humility is ingrained by the imbuing of grace and virtue. Ego is an illusory armament donned by those whose hearts are filled with fear and unfamiliarity of the unknown and miscomprehended world. Love for the world and its creator is born of faith in its integrity.

    The Supreme Spirit constitutes virtue. These virtues are: Prudence – sound judgment and wisdom.
    Justice – fair minded and balanced unbiased thinking. Temperance - Self control and discipline, Mind over matter, Power of will. Courage/Fortitude – Forbearance, immovable endurance, steadfastness, fidelity.
    Faith – Steadfast courage and fidelity. Honour – to uphold truth with devout adherence, morality – to exercise reason over will, mindful of what factors/sin nature may govern and drive the will at any time, and above all Love – the power to love through understanding, Love being the primary motivator of the will to peace.

    The Supreme Spirit of The Waheguru courses through universal humanity as a fragrant breath of air. This Spirit dwells not where the traits of sin nature is. Souls with a propensity to paap, haram, kam, krodh, moh, hanker, erode this pure and powerful Spiritedness and become as abominations to the souls who are unable to communicate the message of peace to such devious and malignant beings. Waheguru, The Supreme Spirit is Love, Truth and Peace. It is depleted by those who attempt to evoke its grace into sinful minds and souls. The beggar or poor man who dwells in the spirit of peace and is inwardly cleansed is preferable to the mantled praise singer who boats of benefaction but has impurity within. It is a life journey for all to remain mindful or inner cleansing with prayer and outward silent exemplary conduct towards all.
     
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  12. pk70

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  13. Archived_Member5

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    ਸਭ ਏਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਮਤੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੈ ਸਭੁ ਆਤਮ ਰਾਮੁ ਪਛਾਨ ਜੀਉ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਗਾਇਆ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਊਤਮ ਜਨ ਪਰਧਾਨ ਜੀਉ Sees she every one with the eye, i.e. alike, and recognises she the pervading soul amongst all. They who sing Lord God's praise, obtain the supreme status and they are the exquisite and the most eminent persons.

    As a good woman is known by her Father’s name, her husband’s name or her sons name thus the greatest power that is the oracle of supreme conscience is known as the Creators consciousness. The Supreme power is androgynous, with the supreme ,masculine will. It is imprudent and decidedly wise to refer to God as a woman, the nature of woman is submission to man. The Power of Wisdom is as Man. Women with power become the destroyers of male will and the root of all evil. God is one must assign a gender is Male. The true Mother Soul seeks no glory other than peace, understanding, love and libearation for her humanity.

    Waheguru, The Supreme Spirit is Love, Truth and Peace. It is mans task to liberate himself from sin and its resultant evil, not assign it as an act and tactile will of God. Undoubtedly there is an evil wench denied access to the Supreme Empyrean who torments and maligns all, who binds and submits men and is destroyed only by the immune wisdom and power of the Supreme Mother Soul. war ensues as fickle men counsel by cunning evil cast wisdom into a solitary hell in the cause of setting aside where She is tormented and tortured by the evil wenches and their spellbound moron formerly a great Lord, It happens all about us, in many guises and cases. The original tale of Adam and Eve, and similarly related in the SGGS states mans downfall when he was lured and submitted to a sinful women. Adams first wife is greatly maligned. This initial story establishes all truth and actuality in the world if understood. The Supreme Spirit fathers only because it lacks the frenzied zeal and ambition for gain mostly because it is rich in Spirit, akin to its humanity.

    That is not true either ਹੁਕਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਖਰਾ ਭਾਰਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕਿਸੈ ਬੁਝਾਏ ਇਉ ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਿਆ ਜੰਤ ਵਿਚਾਰੇ ਜਾ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਏ Exceedingly strict is thine command to act upon but through the Guru, hardly one realises it. Thus says Nanak, what can be poor creatures do, when thou misleadest them into doubt? (SGGS441)

    This is perverse thinking. Enlightened divine souls and knower’s of Gods truth cannot assign wilful ignorance and carnal acts to Waheguru. Mankind is led by evil inclination only in the era of Kalyug. Kalyug arises when Shiva is cast from his great throne and submitted by fiends to an evil woman’s will. Thereafter witchcraft usage, feminism and immorality increase in measure. This occurs each millennia. The Supreme Spirit did not create, incite and lead people to evil, rather one inaction caused the advent of evil, which thereafter deceived and weaves a web of lies to retain its hold upon the world. It is wrong to say God leads man to evil, although his complicit involvement may appear at times to imply this thinking.
     
  14. pk70

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    he original tale of Adam and Eve, and similarly related in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji states mans downfall when he was lured and submitted to a sinful women. Adams first wife is greatly maligned. This initial story establishes all truth and actuality in the world if understood. The Supreme Spirit fathers only because it lacks the frenzied zeal and ambition for gain mostly because it is rich in Spirit, akin to its humanity.
    Prove me SGGS supports your story with an example.


    That is not true either ਹੁਕਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਖਰਾ ਭਾਰਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕਿਸੈ ਬੁਝਾਏ ਇਉ ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਿਆ ਜੰਤ ਵਿਚਾਰੇ ਜਾ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਏ Exceedingly strict is thine command to act upon but through the Guru, hardly one realises it. Thus says Nanak, what can be poor creatures do, when thou misleadest them into doubt? (SGGS441)

    This is perverse thinking.
    Ignorant mortals say so, the one who has experienced the eternal Lord just shares what is experienced. I doubt you are bigger than the enlightened Guru.
    Enlightened divine souls and knower’s of Gods truth cannot assign wilful ignorance and carnal acts to Waheguru
    First Waheguru needs to be understood, who sees Him separate, and sees the action separate and Judge the enlightened one with own limited perception has no inkling what Waheguru is accepted in Gurmat.. All is expressed in Sree Guru Granth Sahib, any thing said contrary to SGGS is meaningless for the Guru Follower.
    . Mankind is led by evil inclination only in the era of Kalyug.
    Kalyug arises when Shiva is cast from his great throne and submitted by fiends to an evil woman’s will
    That is your opinion not necessarily acceptable to all especially not to Guru Nanak followers. As per Gurbani, when Lord is forgotten, that is the bad time; Guru doesn’t describe Yugas in context of Shiva ji either.
    . Thereafter witchcraft usage, feminism and immorality increase in measure. This occurs each millennia.
    Witchcraft is not accepted as a realty in Guru Nanak House, give me one example from Gurbani to prove me wrong.
    The Supreme Spirit did not create, incite and lead people to evil
    As per above Guru bachan, HE causes the people to go astray. Who experienced Him, sees nothing but HIM in good or bad. They are not choosy as you are.
    , rather one inaction caused the advent of evil, which thereafter deceived and weaves a web of lies to retain its hold upon the world. It is wrong to say God leads man to evil, although his complicit involvement may appear at times to imply this thinking.
    May be it is wrong to say since you do not believe in said Guru Bachan but I do because Guru sees HIM the Master doer, repeatedly it is said that He causes it. Here is another example SGGS 1257 .Gurmat doesn’t depend on personal or established philosophies
    ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਆਕਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੇ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਏ
    Nirankār ākār hai āpe āpe bẖaram bẖulā▫e.
    The Formless Lord is formed by Himself. He Himself deludes in doubt.

    ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਵੇਖੈ ਜਿਤੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਤੁ ਲਾਏ
    Kar kar karṯā āpe vekẖai jiṯ bẖāvai ṯiṯ lā▫e.
    Creating the Creation, the Creator Himself beholds it; He enjoins us as He pleases.
    Should I thank you for calling Guru thinking perverse, I don’t think so. I would just say it is sad I have to read it.
     
  15. Archived_Member5

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    Tihi guni sansar Brahm suta, sutia rain vihani
    The world slumbers in evil influence, lost in ignorant sleep.

    Gur Kirpa te se jan jage, jina Har man vaisa, boleh Amrit bani.
    By the grace of God consciousness they awaken, in uttering ambrosial prayer.

    Kahai Nanak, so tat pae, jis no an-din Har liv lagai, jagat rain vihani
    Sayeth Nanak, they focused upon the Lord, imbued with his Spirit, remain in supreme wakefulness.

    Mankind slumber in the web of deceit and manipulative engineering of the modern day wickedness. They look for signs of the cause of chaos in the world without recognising the immediate factors and circumstance about them. They endorse evil demagogues of power, and follow a media known as wicked and viciously corrupt, in word, deed and action. All men know this yet their minds are switched to an auto pilot. They are helpless and bound, fear peer disapproval, lack the courage to take a stand. I too remain in denial of my fate and circumstance and those who are seated as demagogues of power above me. If I am not wicked or corrupt, if my wisdom and thinking id sound, how then can my Lord be so perverse as to wilfully allow evil to languish in its sinful deeds whilst the good and innocent are cast into ignominy and isolation. We slumber, man slumbers, God slumbers, The Lord slumbers whilst the demons of darkness cloaked in glorious shrouds pillage and desecrate all, sparing none but the wicked. How do we escape these chains that bind our mind and soul. the demons imply we are hated, none could care, rather they wish the good dead as does God, such souls are all in caves of spiritual desolation, some grand others entombed. How then do we awaken, The Supreme Spirit, other than by ridding the world of the wicked forces seeking to malign religion and faith and love, and assign all wickedness as acts of God. Caves infested with rodents casting long shadows on the walls magnified by the buring fire lighting mans darkness. What is that burning fire but mankind’s love, faith, his passion. {Plato} ‘’Jaise tum chalai hai, jaise challa swami..’’’

    Your Thoughts ...
     
  16. Archived_Member5

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    There is great truth in the SGGS. It is also said in the SGGS by Guru Nanak that he is tormented by barking dogs, and in retaliating with them he too becomes as one. A testimony to not consort or keep company with such zealots who use religion and scripture not as an enlightening or liberating discourse for purification of the mind and soul for spiritual ascension, but rather as a legitimate rod for beating the already rendered manipulatable and intellectually weak. It would sadden me if you were to become one of their number.

    Witchcraft and sorcery are the tools of evil. Yes there are spiritualists who cure the ill fatedness of others, yet it is recongised in all scriptures from the Bible, Koran and the Adi Granth that sorcerers are the enemy of naturally wise powerful spirits. For any man to require further scriptural evidence to this effect implies an underlying affiliation or fear with such forces.

    The Godhood league of naturally Spiritual beings is almost extinct, submitted, captured and destroyed by such forces and their demonic witches. Whether you deny or agree is beside the point. A blind man can see the evident and glaring truth about us. Perverse is the man assigning sin and wicked deeds to the Waheguru or Guru Nanak, a most heinous sin, PK Ji. Agreed we must not endorse such evil gargoyles, but pretence of its nonexistence and blaming the Pure Power and Light of the Guru to such evil and vile deeds can be considered an extreme perversion of sacred truth.
     
  17. Archived_Member5

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    May be it is wrong to say since you do not believe in said Guru Bachan but I do because Guru sees HIM the Master doer, repeatedly it is said that He causes it. Here is another example SGGS 1257 .Gurmat doesn’t depend on personal or established philosophies
    ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਆਕਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੇ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਏ
    Nirankār ākār hai āpe āpe bẖaram bẖulā▫e.
    The Formless Lord is formed by Himself. He Himself deludes in doubt.

    ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਵੇਖੈ ਜਿਤੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਤੁ ਲਾਏ
    Kar kar karṯā āpe vekẖai jiṯ bẖāvai ṯiṯ lā▫e.
    Creating the Creation, the Creator Himself beholds it; He enjoins us as He pleases.
    quote]

    A MATTER OF PERSONAL PERCEPTION...

    PK Ji, The religious perceive, describe God according to the limitations of their intellect, indoctrination and need. It is said man creates his own God, for what is ‘’God’’ but his greater consciousness, one he must strive to learn, understand and becomes. The path is littered with perils and distractions, designed to mislead and misguide and retain him in his narrow thinking and constrained existence.

    The Waheguru’s virtues are perfectly well specified. They are a supreme perfection all humanity must seek to attain. Yes mankind are weak, anger at times and become boastful and arrogant, some more so than others, yet the greatest defeat is to allude wickedness and failure as Gods doing and an act and will of God.

    The Waheguru is the Mat Pitta Consciousness. The greater universal Parent. We admonish offspring who in their anger deem us wicked and unfair at times. It is only with expanding consciousness and understanding we come to understand why our parents reinforced what seemed untenable restrictions us and enforced strict discipline to ensure we remained on the perfect saintly path in an imperfect and deviously alluring world. None love and care as much as parents, or carry the weight of their guidance being maligned by intruders as ancient or old fashioned.

    The Waheguru Spirit is such ...
     
  18. pk70

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    Tihi guni sansar Brahm suta, sutia rain vihani
    The world slumbers in evil influence, lost in ignorant sleep.

    Well, who created this Tihi guni sansar? Here is answer
    ਪੰਨਾ 67, ਸਤਰ 9
    ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਮੇਰੈ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਕੀਨਾ ਆਪੇ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਏ
    Mā▫i▫ā moh merai parab kīnā āpe baram bulā▫e.
    Emotional attachment to Maya is created by my God; He Himself misleads us through illusion and doubt.
    ਮਃ 3

    Gur Kirpa te se jan jage, jina Har man vaisa, boleh Amrit bani.
    By the grace of God consciousness they awaken, in uttering ambrosial prayer.
    Well this was not the issue; you called Guru bachan perverse thinking, on what base?

    Kahai Nanak, so tat pae, jis no an-din Har liv lagai, jagat rain vihani
    Sayeth Nanak, they focused upon the Lord, imbued with his Spirit, remain in supreme wakefulness.
    That is a part of His big show, He created Maya, He keeps people in it, He takes some out of it as HE is the doer. You and I listen Gurbani, how much we have changed as per Gurbani, the answer will be helpful in finding out His ordinance .If He creates Maya, He provides divine knowledge too to get out of this quagmire of ego, what can happen if mere philosophies are made base to judge Him or others.

    Mankind slumber in the web of deceit and manipulative engineering of the modern day wickedness. They look for signs of the cause of chaos in the world without recognising the immediate factors and circumstance about them. They endorse evil demagogues of power, and follow a media known as wicked and viciously corrupt, in word, deed and action. All men know this yet their minds are switched to an auto pilot. They are helpless and bound, fear peer disapproval, lack the courage to take a stand. I too remain in denial of my fate and circumstance and those who are seated as demagogues of power above me. If I am not wicked or corrupt, if my wisdom and thinking id sound, how then can my Lord be so perverse as to wilfully allow evil to languish in its sinful deeds whilst the good and innocent are cast into ignominy and isolation. We slumber, man slumbers, God slumbers, The Lord slumbers whilst the demons of darkness cloaked in glorious shrouds pillage and desecrate all, sparing none but the wicked. How do we escape these chains that bind our mind and soul. the demons imply we are hated, none could care, rather they wish the good dead as does God, such souls are all in caves of spiritual desolation, some grand others entombed. How then do we awaken,
    If only concept of Guru Nanak about the Lord and His creation is understood, conflicts die, we read him, listen to him but when it comes to sacrifice our preprogrammed “self” we remain glued to it, we have a feeling of knowing every thing and teaching ever thing. In Gurbani, a real Sikh is considered just like a Guru, why? Guru Answers that too saying that whatever Guru’s mission is, so is the mission of a Sikh, reason is very simple, Sikh’s own thinking is replaced by Guru’s thinking who has experienced the Lord. We like to hear Guru but due to over load of so much stuff floating around, fail to follow him.

    The Supreme Spirit, other than by ridding the world of the wicked forces seeking to malign religion and faith and love, and assign all wickedness as acts of God.
    Assigning it to God is different thing, seeing Him in all show is different, you are obviously mixing things up. When you assign, you blame, when you see Him in there, you become aware of Him and change.
    Caves infested with rodents casting long shadows on the walls magnified by the buring fire lighting mans darkness. What is that burning fire but mankind’s love, faith, his passion. {Plato}
    I couldn’t make any thing out of it
    ’Jaise tum chalai hai, jaise challa swami..’’’
    That is to understand His Ordinance in total not parts
     
  19. pk70

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  20. Archived_Member5

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    PK Ji, with the greatest respect your God, who plays, {khel khel akel khelda, ant ko phir ek} is none other than the all powerful Steve O’Connor the all powerful who holds the world in his palm, controls the media, can turn the sun red, and cause earthquakes, plane crashes and major catastrophes’. All media eventitudes are ascribed by him alone, who killed God mind and heart by firing planes through the two twin towers at the beginning of this drama unfolding before us. He fits your description perfectly, maintains wisdom in hell is a surmaa{pig} and as the wizard of Oz controls and manipulates all wills and minds to act as he pleases. I call him a mean, lowly paparazzi pimp, but others are more than willing to crown this all powerful offensive moron God, for he is undeniably all powerful and has my mind and will in his third desk drawer. Shall we hail Steve O’Connor...? Did God give him power because he inadvertently placed his trust in him and was murdered for doing so, is it God wish that steve remain powerful, I know it is not, but others may demand evidence of a reluctant God, and Steve is unlikely to want to be held responsible for all his evil deeds. The world will worship almost anything this I have learnt, and allow the donning of media good time entertainment girls to wear goddess garb and the mantle of priesthood whilst desecrating the clergy and pastors. Let this ghastly drama come to an end. I tire and am bored of this drama and see all too clearly your all powerful wally that is old Steve{former editor of The Sun, Britain’s most popular ragsheet, available only 20p at your local newsagents} before whom all bow and prostrate ion fear for he is undoubtedly a psychopathic vicious brute... decisions decisions ... :yes::inca:
     
  21. pk70

    pk70
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    There are worse than him, actually we are worse than him who being aware of good and bad still are spectators. You see heart breaking powerty, so do I, what we are doing? Any aggressive part we ever taken? Well there are Lord's mediums who are out there and there are like you and me just enjoy good talking. All a part of Big show of the Lord
     
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