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Hard Talk Taking One Liners Out Of Context From Gurbani To Allow Intellectual Independence?

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Original, Apr 23, 2016.

  1. Original

    Original
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    No comment, although, I feel within the academia homogenisation certain formalities ought to be relaxed to allow intellectual independence to harness the essential features of the subject matter rather than rummage through incidentals for completeness.
     
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  3. Admin Singh

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    Dear SPN'ers,

    This debate/argument has been going on at SPN since inception... SPN has been firmly advocating posting full shabds to expound the real meanings of a shabd but some of our learned members continue to choose to overlook our requests deliberately.

    SPN will firmly keep on implementing this rule actually for the sake of intellectual Independence in academia homogenization, without fail.

    Thank you so much for co-operating with us on this subject matter.

    Respected @Original ji,

    You are very well educated academically and it definitely reflects in your near perfect heavy duty English diction and also, you have been a reputed barrister/advocate.

    However, your above quoted comment sounds a bit too inconsistent... even for an academically novice like me...

    Do you think it is OK to take one line out-of-context from a Clause in The Law Book of your country to manipulate its meaning to satisfy our own ulterior motives in the Court? Even if it leads to a wrongful conviction... Do you think it is OK for the sake of intellectual Independence in academia homogenization?

    Do you think it is OK to overlook the the meticulous care taken by Gurus in formulating SGGS for the sake of allowing intellectual independence within the academia homogenization?

    Are you NOT indirectly questioning the wisdom of the Gurus, who made so much effort to put || Rahao || in every shabd and in some shabds even more than one || Rahao ||?


    Gurfateh Ji!
     
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  4. Harkiran Kaur

    Harkiran Kaur Canada
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    What about the camp who say that each and every tuk in Gurbani has like 1000 meanings and can stand alone? (Obviously they can not because then we would have contradictions and truth can never contradict itself right?)

    ...so I am all for referencing the full shabad it used to be a bit more annoying though when the quotes didn't collapse into something you could expand. Meaning one post could take pages... Now you can post the whole shabad in a collapsible bubble and then requote the tuk you are referencing alone separately and it keeps everything looking neat so it's highlighted.
     
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  5. Original

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    ...please accept my sincere apologies for it was not deliberate, perhaps an overture on my part with a view to a dialogue.
    ...caught me off-guard, lol ! mind you, it was intended to be both message bearing and a light jovial banter.
    Admin Ji
    ...the ordinary Joe Blogg, I'd say !
    ..that's street wisdom, I like it !
    ..advocate is more befitting and there's a lot more. But yes, all in all I represent the weak and the "righteous" in this money madness markets where humans have become commodities.
    ..pass ?
    ..there are 3 sides to the "self":
    1. one you see in the mirror
    2. one you have of yourself, the person or the "I"
    3. one how others see you
    Its because of academic novice like you that gets the prehistoric like me to be able to recreate academically on a platform full of life. I see you, understand you and love you for all that you do in the name of Sikhi.
    My causes and concerns have largely been associated with humanitarian principles. Much of the professional work undertaken have always been within the social sector of rural Punjab. In other words, social justice. Yes, there was a time when I was the supreme officer of the English Courts. But that was short-lived and was en route to the real deal of getting even with the brits at a later date.
    ...Sir, the crack of the whip on an innocent man, don't you think is unjustified? You seemed to have ambushed me when in essence it was said in jest and that too with a forbearance, "NO COMMENT". And, as you know with Veer Tejwant Singh Ji, you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't, meaning, sher di poosh nu hath la ka kitha janna. Don't get me wrong, I love him to bits like the rest of the gang, but make few calculations here n there for a smooth ride.
    No, it is never okay to overlook and never will be, the two are incompatible in the first instance. Where there is Guru there is no intelligence. But where there is intelligence there is still a Guru. The Guru is "sat" [truth] and has an existence just like a plant has an existence. First as a bud and then followed by a series of phases of bloom, flower and fruit. And, just as the bud, bloom, flower and fruit cannot all live at once and proclaim to be the plant, neither can intelligentsia live independently and proclaim it to be Guru. What I mean by intellectual independence is the essential elements, the juicy bits of the shabd, those that are active, operative and distilling towards the summit of the intellectual realm. Hence the view to allow some lateral reasoning for the discussion to develop to bear fruit. Thus, an application of careful reasoning results in genuine progress, without necessitating incidental disrespect.

    On a more conservative note, Guru Gobind Singh Ji nipped it in the bud when they said 'Khoj Shabd main lay", meaning, the whole essence of Gurbani can be found in 1 Shabd, manifestation of which is "Waheguru", chewing on it monotonously will yield dividends. So really, the probative value is "where and how" you use it and not why you use it. Everything material and non material is Shabd.
    ...why indirectly, I directly question the wisdom of the Guru. That is the beauty of the Guru and the cornerstone of Sikhism. The more I question the more fulfilment therein and that as a result, puts me on a good stead to know how useless all my endeavours.
    ...I think Sherdil muzzled many of the riders n runners with his quasi-interpretation, me included. But now that you've brought Rahao to the forefront, consider the following: it occupies a special place within the Raag compositions. It can mean many things, suffice to explore two here:
    1. It is the main refrain of the shabd or the basic line where the singer comes back to the same line again and again. This is the line which is sung immediately after the Antra.
    2. It lays stress on the central idea of the shabd
    All in all, your wish is my command, for you run things and have an overall responsibility per se.
    Much obliged
     
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    #4 Original, Apr 24, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2016
  6. Tejwant Singh

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    Original ji writes:

    Original ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Let's throw our educational degrees and other likewise sundries out of the window and try to be just Sikhs.

    If this is your claim, then it becomes your duty as a well educated Sikh who has great knowledge in Sikhi to add your 2 pence worth to Sherdil ji's definition rather than falsely accusing him with the language like muzzled.Muzzled in what way? Please explain and add to his queries where more things about Gurbani/Sikhi can be clarified.

    In the Sikhi way of life that you practice daily, please also explain with honesty what you mean by your above post whilst mentioning my name. Elaborate with concrete examples. It is time to show how brave of a Sikh one is or is it just one's self inflated bravura?
    Firstly, please explain with examples in English -to the non Gurmukhi speakers- about your above accusation towards me. I expected a bit of class from a well educated person like you but rest assured I am not disappointed with this at all.

    As mentioned before, please translate Punjabi into English for the sake of others who do not understand Gurmukhi. I hope you will take this as a humanitarian endeavour on your part.

    And yes, feel free to express the whole Shabad in your own thoughts regarding the other post, which is actually preferred because the literal translations are much to be desired.

    Will expect an honest and direct response.

    Thanks.
     
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    #5 Tejwant Singh, Apr 25, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2016
  7. Original

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    Gurfateh Phaji
    ..done !
    ..phaji, there is a saying in Punjabi " galti gummare di gussa gaddi teh" [fault is the potter's, punishing he the mule]. The word muzzled is used within my social circle to mean "silenced". It was a complement on my part to Sherdil for providing an acceptable interpretation.
    ... don't know about bravery, but what I do know [perception] is that you are a wonderful man who has passion and commitment for Sikh. I used your name without any reservation because I feel a brotherly relationship exists between me and you. And, that relationship is underpinned by our culture, tradition and above all, by our faith - Sikh. It is that relationship which is unqualified, unconditional and everlasting. No explanations available if you ask me [from a farmer's perspective], but yes one could be found if you were to delve deep into sociologists perspectives.

    All in all, I meant well. The Sher bit was to ward-off the rest of the players, "hey people, beware, you're touching a Lion's tale [meaning you] and there's no easy way out". Warrior folklore has it, thus, " don't mess with the best coz the best don't mess". Especially a sher !
    ..see above !
    ..I will do, let me know what takes your fancy and I will gladly honour. Looking at Sufi mat might be a good idea and will yield dividends of immense proportions, what do you think ?
    ..what I'd like us to do is to educate our children with the basic of Gur Ghar Sikh'ya, that is, " you can soar the sky only if you have two wings;
    1. sansarik vidya
    2. dharmik vidya
    Meaning, sociology and theology.

    Good day Sir !
     
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    #6 Original, Apr 25, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2016
  8. Sherdil

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    Most of us come here to share what we know and learn from each other, but there are some that come here to show us how much they know. They have time to write an essay for their post, but they don't have time to give more than a line of Gurbani to support their argument. Go figure. Giving more than a few lines of Gurbani, with English translation and page number helps to facilitate the learning process. It also allows the rest of us to double-check the accuracy of your interpretation. No one's interpretation should be taken as word of law. Everyone is open to scrutiny. Is it ego that prevents some of us from complying with this request, or is it a fear that their argument will reveal itself to be half-baked under more careful inspection?
     
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  9. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    or even completely raw!
     
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  10. Harkiran Kaur

    Harkiran Kaur Canada
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    No matter what, you will still find that one person's context is not another's... no matter how many lines you post. Entire shabads can be interpreted in different ways, temporal, spiritual, metaphorical, literal, etc. And you will still have disagreements. One will say it's only speaking about psychology and how to get along with the neighbour, another will say it's describing our spiritual nature and how to meet our Creator (just as an example). Posting the full shabad won't change the mind of either of them!

    Can I propose a third option?? That maybe Gurbani was MEANT to speak on different levels to different people? Those who are in need of purely temporal instruction will see that, and those who are on more spiritual level will see the spiritual message.
     
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  11. Admin Singh

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    Gurfateh @Harkiran Kaur Ji and fellow SPN'ers,

    At SPN, it does matter to post interpretations of entire shabds whether done personally or literally copied from other resources while mentioning the resources, if not obvious, PERIOD!

    If there are disagreements over the interpretations of the entire shabds, as in different ways you mentioned above, even then interpretation of full shabds makes it easier to comprehend for the readers and easily open to further contemplation by everbody and easily open to further discussions as we have a theme ||rahao|| to focus on. One-liner interpretations are like shooting in the pitch dark and everybody is shooting in every direction aimlessly, mostly, deliberately to push their own personal or group agendas.

    Let there be no doubt and as mentioned again and again, at SPN, it is mandatory to post interpretations of entire shabds whether done personally or literally copied from other resources, PERIOD!

    Gurfateh ji
     
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    #10 Admin Singh, Apr 25, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
  12. Harkiran Kaur

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    I wasn't disagreeing with you... I was just saying that even then, there will be disagreements in interpretation.

    Hari Singh Randhawa was a good example of this... he referred to one line to support his claim that women can not do seva while menstruating... this one:


    ਜੇ ਰਤੁ ਲਗੈ ਕਪੜੈ ਜਾਮਾ ਹੋਇ ਪਲੀਤੁ
    Je raṯ lagai kapṛai jāmā ho▫e palīṯ.
    If one's clothes are stained with blood, the garment becomes polluted.

    However, if you take the whole thing:


    ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ
    Salok mėhlā 1.
    Shalok, First Mehl:

    ਜੇ ਰਤੁ ਲਗੈ ਕਪੜੈ ਜਾਮਾ ਹੋਇ ਪਲੀਤੁ
    Je raṯ lagai kapṛai jāmā ho▫e palīṯ.
    If one's clothes are stained with blood, the garment becomes polluted.

    ਜੋ ਰਤੁ ਪੀਵਹਿ ਮਾਣਸਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਿਉ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਚੀਤੁ
    Jo raṯ pīvėh māṇsā ṯin ki▫o nirmal cẖīṯ.
    Those who suck the blood of human beings-how can their consciousness be pure?

    ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਉ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਕਾ ਦਿਲਿ ਹਛੈ ਮੁਖਿ ਲੇਹੁ
    Nānak nā▫o kẖuḏā▫e kā ḏil hacẖẖai mukẖ leho.
    O Nanak, chant the Name of God, with heart-felt devotion.

    ਅਵਰਿ ਦਿਵਾਜੇ ਦੁਨੀ ਕੇ ਝੂਠੇ ਅਮਲ ਕਰੇਹੁ ॥੧॥
    Avar ḏivāje ḏunī ke jẖūṯẖe amal karehu. ||1||
    Everything else is just a pompous worldly show, and the practice of false deeds. ||1||

    It becomes apparent it is not even speaking about literal blood, but more in the lines of "blood on your hands" meaning exploitation or causing harm to another. In other words the pollution is caused by the blood on your hands of using or exploiting others (suck the blood of others) and in that case how can your consciousness ever be pure when you are doing these actions. But Hari Singh Randhawa created a huge controvery by saying that one line only... to justify his stance that women are 'polluted' because they menstruate and so they can not do seva of SGGSJ while on their periods. Just wanted to put a real world example... I won't be surprised though if someone disagrees with my interpretation either haha.

    btw I think I posted the full shabad? But there is no rahao line or multiple numbers... so I am not sure. The only way I can tell is to select Pauri/Shabad link on srigranth.org. Otherwise I'd never know where to end on the copy and paste. I think I once pasted about 5 pages of Gurbani (and likely severeal full shabads in the process) - edit I remember what it was - something in japji Sahib I was referring to, and I pasted the entire japji sahib...it took like four or five full screens to scroll through it all, and multiple posts because I ran out of characters... trying to capture the full shabad... anyway its difficult to tell where one ends and one begins. (for me anyway) But that is all that was there when I clicked Pauri / Shabad link... for the above one.
     
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    #11 Harkiran Kaur, Apr 25, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2016
  13. Admin Singh

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    @Harkiran Kaur Ji

    I never disagreed with you either, just stressed that even if there would be disagreements with full interpretations, there would be an ample room to contemplate and discuss these interpretations further...

    Translations by any person, in the end are just personal understanding of Gurbani of that person... just because it is published, it does not become an authority or not open to further close scrutiny. It is definitely open to a close scrutiny by sikh scholars and everybody else. This is the beauty of Sikhi, it is evolutionary, we learn something new every time we read it and start to contemplate all over again.

    Please do not take any of my comments personally, i was just stressing the point generally... my apologies if i came out offending... :foldedhands:

    Gurfateh
     
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  14. Original

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    Dear All

    In any organisation such as SPN, which is regulated by a complex administrative machinery, the administrators have a sphere of power [delegated legislation] within which, in the interest of "certainty" and efficiency they're allowed limited degree of discretion to make local laws.The correct test therefore would be, in my humble opinion, is to ask, "what constitutes a shabd" ?

    Regards
     
  15. Harkiran Kaur

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    I wondered this too. For example referring to something in japji Sahib, do we post the entire Japji Sahib (which takes 4-5 separate posts due to 3000 character limit in each post)? How about Rehras Sahib which is even longer (especially the Taksali version)?!
     
  16. Harry Haller

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    I think we are just supposed to use our brains rather than follow it to the letter, the gist of what is being suggested is clear even to an idiot like me, maybe its easier to take it literally, less brain call!
     
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  17. Original

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    I agree Sir ! In its very literal form shabd means a "word", constitution of which as you'd probably know, are the letters of the alphabet. Take Harry for example, that by definition is a word.

    Gdnite !
     
  18. chazSingh

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    i remember during some times of hardship...i awoke in the early hours and meditated on the shabad "tatee waho na lagaeee, parbrahm sarnaeee...chaugiradh hamaree ram kar dukh lagee n paee"...

    i could understand these lines of shabad...in my humble ardaas i asked for forgiveness for not knowing the complete shabad off by heart...

    i melted away into these lines...infused with light...deeper n deeper...it took away much fear, fear of life situations...fear of death etc ...

    like you i believe any shabad has the power to take you deep within and bathe in its glory...

    on this forum i've tried more and more to post a few lines and then a link to what some of the shabad websites deem as a full shabad for readers to look into if they so please..

    some shabads are too large to post...and many a thread could be opened to discuss elements of it and its complete context.

    i guess we should just try to post as much as possible in order to facilitate the discussion and reference links to full shabads...
     
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  19. Admin Singh

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    The character limit was immediately increased to over 10000 per post as soon as it was brought our notice. Too many big posts in a thread bog down the server. We have to deal with the practicalities as well.

    You can visit SPN's Jap ji Sahib section and observe how earlier posters used their wisdom to post one pauri per thread to keep the interpretations to an easily comprehensible size... and those interpretations received very good responses from the readers. Very big long posts do not necessarily make them more legible or easier to comprehend. However, nobody is stopping anybody from posting big long posts.
     
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  20. Harkiran Kaur

    Harkiran Kaur Canada
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    Its 10,000 now? I didn't realize :) I knew I ran into the 3000 limit before...
     
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  21. Admin Singh

    Admin Singh
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    It's set to way more than 10000. :)
     
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