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Supernatural Sikhs, what do you think is it true? What is your opinion?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by TigerStyleZ, May 22, 2012.

  1. TigerStyleZ

    TigerStyleZ
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    WJKK WJKf,

    recently I was studying about Baba Deep Singh etc.. fighting headless what do you think, is it true? How we can explain that, any facts or something? Biologycoly it is possible - because the nerves live a short time after severed from veines(Aorta), nerves etc. Most Gora Sikhs dont belieive in it.Wanted to ask this question a few years ago, but finally I did it now :) The will, descipline and the mind are the powers of the human and the Body is just the executive Bridge between that i saw many "supernatural" things that human did like in Netherlands . A guy named Wim Hof sitting for 2 hours in ICE etc.. I am just curious of your thoughts - I believe that you can do anything /when you are in unison with God. I mean our mind is it that build an computer our mind it is that build a car

    The Ice Man takes a cold dip - Inside the Human Body: First to Last - BBC One - YouTube


    It is same thing like Jesus walked over water.
     
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    #1 TigerStyleZ, May 22, 2012
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  3. Harry Haller

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    Veerji

    I believe it did happen, and it happened fully within the laws of nature and Creation, I do not believe it was supernatural, I do not believe that the white bearded Creator looked down and thought, I know, lets give Baba Deep Singhji a hand here, I don't believe it was a miracle.

    Maybe he had only 5 or 10 seconds, who knows, but it was long enough to leave that image embedded in his enemies and spur on his fellow soldiers.
     
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  4. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    Tigerstyle ji

    He taught us all a lesson. Never give in or give up even if you have to sacrifice your head.

    Jo jo prem khalan ka chao, sir tarh thali gali meri ayou
    'those who want to play the game of love, bring your head in your palm across the path'

    Now, I believe Guru Nanak actually said this verse, but I always seem to associate it with Guru Gobind Singh. When I came across it initially, I did automatically assume for a long time that it was by Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

    I think this supernatural event or miracle(Baba Deep Singh) if you want to call it wasn't carried out to show us miracles, but it was more to teach us a lesson. More to show the way.

    The guru's refused to demonstrate such miracles as this is what the critics expected.
    But many unexplained events occured for those that took notice.
    'Panja sahib', 'Guru Gobind's horse cooling the furnace to get some rest,'...etc... even events where there was some sort of time travel!!

    All these were not to demonstrate miracles or the unexplained, but to show us their loyalty and persistence in the truth.
    There was no Jesus like 'feed the five thousand' where bread and fish miraclously kept appearing to feed people, instead Guru Nanak fed the hungry by using ALL of his father's given money, he also showed us 'Bhago's' roti filled with the blood of people that he had sucked dry by his unlawful earning compared to the rightous lawful earning that showed milk dripping.
    This again was NOT to demonstrate the illusion that would put David Copperfield to shame, but to teach us the lesson of how we should earn.

    I don't think that we should be looking into the 'WOW' factor as such from all these events, but we should be learning the ultimate lesson.
    I honestly do feel that we shouldn't be questioning or comparing the events under such titles as miracles as such, but we should focus on the 'Message'.

    I don't personally like to evaluate our Gurus or Martyrs on the the basis of 'superhuman powers', I feel that is WRONG and NOT what they wanted us to do. Guru Nanak as the first Guru, I'm sure didn't want to be remembered for superhuman powers or rotating Mecca for eg...

    In the same way we should focus on the 'message' in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, as well as the messages given to us in memorable events.

    So, Tigerstyle Ji, I know when you are young that these stories and events with miracles. etc.. seem fascinating, and it is a natural reaction to question and 'wow!'
    As a youngster, I, like yourself would often be fascinated and question such happenings. BUT, maybe I'm getting wiser and feel it was just childish thoughts at the time and now only the 'message' seems to be the highlight of the event.
    In all honesty if I ever saw a book titled ' miracles by sikh gurus' or similar, then I wouldn't be too happy or impressed.

    I hope you don't mind me saying this, but I'm sure you will understand if not now then later.

    Waheguru
    Lucky Singh
     
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    #3 Luckysingh, May 22, 2012
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  5. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Most people say..I will DIE IF i dont get "it"....Baba deep Singh ji Vowed to LIVE until he got "IT". ( It is WISH) Baba jis vow was to remain alive until he had reached Harmandar sahib and Liberated IT form the enemy..and he LIVED.
     
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  6. TigerStyleZ

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    Jairnail Singh ji, What is this " IT" - do you mean God?

    Lucky Singh ji, it is the opposite of what you have said! I have no blind faith - I dont believe it myself - because I guess I am more realist. I would rather use my rational comon sense, physics and maths to explain this happenings before having blind faith in something. I just wanted to know where is the source of this Sakhi - is it written down? Everytime I am just fascinated of things I hear around the world - how the laws of gravity are hurdled etc..
     
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    #5 TigerStyleZ, May 22, 2012
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  7. Harry Haller

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    I find Sikhi compliments science and the laws of nature in full, and stands with them, rather than in competition
     
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  8. TigerStyleZ

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    Yes! I never had any doubt about it , thats another point why I love Sikhi.

    But my problem is still there - where are the sources deliverd from of Baba Deep Singh ji etc. I don´t really believe in it but it can happen - many time I was fooled by my mind - I thought many things would never can happen - but i was teached that everything is possible. I guess I am outcasting my own principles? Isnt that paradoxic? Somehow this is blind faith? Or this is just hukam of Waheguru - I am getting mad ... I will never understand... This is just paradox like Shroedingers Cat - fascinating - confusing but comprehensible
     
    #7 TigerStyleZ, May 23, 2012
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  9. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Tigerstylez Ji,
    The IT is (wish).....as i wrote in my message earlier...
    Many people say.."I WISH I were dead..when actually they NEVER really want death...BUT No one says..I Wish I were ALIVE....becasue thats reality..they are already ALIVE !! so whats to wish about that ??
    Baba Deep Singh ji "wished" that reality..that I REMAIN ALIVE until I have Liberated/reached Darbar sahib. So he couldnt "die" before reaching that conclusion..and He did just that...he was ALIVE when he reached darbar sahib and threw his head into the Parkarma as a final offering.
    2. There can be no "sources" from baba Deep Singh ji on this...sources are the soldiers of either side who were in the same battle...and both sides agree on what happened/seemed to happen..Panic among the Mughals and glory among the Sikhs.
    3. Rest is up to us individually..becasue GURMATT/SIKHI is NOT DEPENDANT on such so called supernatural/miracles etc..we stand for TRUTH and TRUTHFUL LIVING..the Miracle is GURBANI which makes Humans into superhumans.
     
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  10. Harry Haller

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    Veerji,

    There is nothing not to believe, it is physically possible, as I said above, the only possible dispute could be the length of time, but did it happen? absolutely! and without miracles or jadoo, just plain will, determination and Gurus grace
     
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  11. Luckysingh

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    Miracles can happen, believe me.
    I have with my own eyes witnessed what physics cannot explain. I have seen what most will say the impossible. I can't discuss exactly what, but believe me, I saw, I knew and then I believed.

    We shouldn't ever underestimate the power of the lord. Sometimes, he can surprise us completely. As long as we learn from the happenings is what really matters. Not the magic of the moment.

    'God works in mysterious ways' is a famous phrase from a poem.
    I often find myself saying this as some conclusion to myself.
     
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  12. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    SIKHS are SIKHS and will always remain SIKHS..the poochh *tail of SUPER is as unnecessary an appendage as areal tail is to a human being...

    Guru Arjun Ji on the Hot Plate being roasted alive, and then BOILED alive ina pot and having super heated snad being poure dover his head and body..remember this is all during the HEIGHT of the Indian Summer where OUTSIDE ambient temperatures often reach as high as 40degrees Celcius in the SHADE !!..and people outside die of HEATSTROKE...YET Guru Arjun ji survived all these for 3 whole days..and on the 4th day WALKED towards the River Ravi to have his bath..!!

    Baba Mani Singh ji being cut JOINT by JOINT...one finger has 3 joints..thumb has 2..chopped off one by one..excruciating pain...bit by bit...but not even a Grimace much less screams...

    Baba banda Singh bahadur ..his flesh being torn by red hot pincers..pinch by pinch...eyes blinded by hot rods..his toddler sons still ebating heart torn out and put into his mouth...not a grimace or scream just Waheguru..waheguru..

    Shabegh Singh subegh Singh torn apart in geared wheels running in opposite directions tearing flesh and crushing bones...the only sound is Waheguru waheguru..

    Bhai taru Singh with hsi scalp removed by sharp blades...Bhai Mati Dass Ji being SAWED ALIVE forom HEAD to Toe..not DYING until his japji was completed..(Brain sawn asunder should result in instantaneous death ??) Bhai sati dass ji wrapped in cotton soaked in kerosene and set on fore..Bhai Dyala Ji boiled like a potato...all WAHEGURU WAHEGURU...

    ALL JUST SIMPLE SIKHS...not one or two..HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS.....and the line stretches to 1984 Golden temple....Streets of delhi.....TODAY !! The so called Terrorists who died fighting in the cane fields of Punjab... Single handedly versus hundred s of well armed professional indian army....and the most modern weapons....simple SIKHS..NOT "super"...natural or un-natural..becasue GURMATT doesn't believe in such supers...
     
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  13. Harry Haller

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    Luckyji

    I do not doubt your experiences brother, I too have had some similar experiences, like the time I got a whole month out of my last Range Rover without it breaking down, so I understand completely the nature of supernatural phenomena.

    In all seriousness, I have escaped death/serious injury by a whisker about 12 times now, and each time I am thankful that Hukam was in my favour, each time it has has happened it has left me feeling more and more like my life belongs to the force behind the Hukam, the Creator, it is not my life anymore, it is Creators.

    Sikhism stands for what the human body can endure and achieve, for the intellectual heights than can be reached, all within the boundaries of reality, miracles are like fetishes, to satisfy just the once is never enough, people want more and more, until a preacher becomes a magician, and the message is lost in the light show, the light show becomes the message
     
  14. chazSingh

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    Satnaam Sat Sangat Ji,

    To understand these so called miracles, you need to understand Maya and the world/creation we live in and why the Gurus and all other saints manifested.

    1.God created the creation to experience himself....it was a way for the un-seeable to be seen.
    2. From the ONE, he created the MANY. All of us in the creation are the MANY...but we have the same makup as the ONE. Like water droplets taken from ocean.
    3. In Satyug, we were aware that we were partaking in the creation. We were aware that we were souls, connected to god, and experiencing the creation. Miracles DIDNT exist because we were god conscious and connected to the whole of the creation and capable of anything.
    4. over thousands/millions of lifetimes we have become attached to the creation, entangled with the mind (computer) and forgotton that we are SOULS. Like a child playing a computer game, if played for too long they may start to think they are the character in the game and forget who they really are. This is why attachment is mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, we all think reality is reality, the things we own to be everything....but we are just actors in a play. Do you know, some hollywood actors practice for years to act/become the person/character that they will be playing in the film. Their family and friends say that it takes the actor many months to become themSELVES again after the film has been made. Their mind gets attached to the character.
    5. to prise open this attachment to the creation with a crowbar, God sent in 'enlightened' beings/souls to AWAKEN us, but these enlightened souls know that they are dealing with the minds of entangled beings....our minds keep asking millions of questions, why this, why that, but how, need proof, show me, i dont believe etc etc etc. This is what the gurus had to contend with. and why these forums are full of these sorts fo question.

    To the mind (computer) things appear to be miracles.
    To a being that has realised his TRUE SELF i.e. Satnaam. that he is a god particle, miracles are not miracles...they are the NORM. they are our true capabilities.

    Satnaam Harry Ji, Science and Sikhi do not need to mix, they are one and the same.
    Science exists due to the Rules created by God, when we study science all we are doing is analyzing these rules.

    BUT, rules exists because the mind is a computer....it needs values, it need numbers, it needs formulas, and reasoning, without this reasoning the mind will cease to function.
    When our mind see's something it doesnt understand, it becomes labelled as a miracle

    BUT, our soul is beyond all of this...it is beyond space and time.
    We need to snap out of this attachement and Ego with the creation as we are all not behaving like god souls. This is why god sends in enlightened souls. When an AWAKEN soul see's a miracle...to him it is not a miracle, its is the TRUE SELF at work. Satnaaaaam.

    God bless all.

    If we understand all of the above we can start to understand almost everything.
     
  15. chazSingh

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    Satnaam Sat Sangat Ji,

    To understand these so called miracles, you need to understand Maya and the world/creation we live in and why the Gurus and all other saints manifested.

    1.God created the creation to experience himself....it was a way for the un-seeable to be seen.
    2. From the ONE, he created the MANY. All of us in the creation are the MANY...but we have the same makup as the ONE. Like water droplets taken from ocean.
    3. In Satyug, we were aware that we were partaking in the creation. We were aware that we were souls, connected to god, and experiencing the creation. Miracles DIDNT exist because we were god conscious and connected to the whole of the creation and capable of anything.
    4. over thousands/millions of lifetimes we have become attached to the creation, entangled with the mind (computer) and forgotton that we are SOULS. Like a child playing a computer game, if played for too long they may start to think they are the character in the game and forget who they really are. This is why attachment is mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, we all think reality is reality, the things we own to be everything....but we are just actors in a play. Do you know, some hollywood actors practice for years to act/become the person/character that they will be playing in the film. Their family and friends say that it takes the actor many months to become themSELVES again after the film has been made. Their mind gets attached to the character.
    5. to prise open this attachment to the creation with a crowbar, God sent in 'enlightened' beings/souls to AWAKEN us, but these enlightened souls know that they are dealing with the minds of entangled beings....our minds keep asking millions of questions, why this, why that, but how, need proof, show me, i dont believe etc etc etc. This is what the gurus had to contend with. and why these forums are full of these sorts fo question.

    To the mind (computer) things appear to be miracles.
    To a being that has realised his TRUE SELF i.e. Satnaam. that he is a god particle, miracles are not miracles...they are the NORM. they are our true capabilities.

    Satnaam Harry Ji, Science and Sikhi do not need to mix, they are one and the same.
    Science exists due to the Rules created by God, when we study science all we are doing is analyzing these rules.

    BUT, rules exists because the mind is a computer....it needs values, it need numbers, it needs formulas, and reasoning, without this reasoning the mind will cease to function.
    When our mind see's something it doesnt understand, it becomes labelled as a miracle

    BUT, our soul is beyond all of this...it is beyond space and time.
    We need to snap out of this attachement and Ego with the creation as we are all not behaving like god souls. This is why god sends in enlightened souls. When an AWAKEN soul see's a miracle...to him it is not a miracle, its is the TRUE SELF at work. Satnaaaaam.

    God bless all.

    If we understand all of the above we can start to understand almost everything.
     
  16. SaintSoldier1699

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    Miracles seem to always be "supernatural" feats when in reality simple things we take for granted are in fact miracles! Such as the Earth spinning in space, the sun being the correct distance from the Earth to sustain life, human's the most complex organism, how we have progressed from our cave man state.

    Yet we focus on so called events of miracles which are poorly documented and scientifically unprovable. I don't think we need stories to enhance our faith, what the Guru's did in their lives is beyond impressive. They established towns/cities/infrastructure/hospitals/soldiers/revolutions etc etc the list is endless yet we all love to listen to tall stories and blindly argue about the genuineness of the events with "non believers".

    Baba Deep Singh was a true warrior who gave his head to the Lord, who fought to his death for a just cause, why we have to go beyond this and say he fought with his head on his palm, which led to extravagant picture being drawn to depict the event and songs etc etc. It just seems time and strong emotions make historic events like these more magical/miracle based.

    I haven't met anyone who has seen a miracle. I've heard tall stories but they are stories people have heard. Also, a miracle is in the perception of the believer, if I'm looking for one I will find one!

    To me life and everything that surrounds it is a miracle.
     
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  17. chazSingh

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    Well said Ji,

    When we plant a seed in the garden then see a plant grow and then some fruit. What an amazing miracle....

    Our mind minimises it to "its mother nature"....

    What is mother nature, the miraculous force behind everything....GOD :)

    Miracles everywhere....miracles when we took our first breath, see a baby formed, created and grow into an adult

    Yet we wait to see someone walk on water to stamp a miracle.

    God bless you.
     
  18. ac_marshall

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    Sat Sri Akal,
    May I add a few words from science point of view? I feel it is possible for human organs to be in action for a few moments after decapitation after considering the mechanism of neurons i.e. nerve cells that transmit the commands from the brain to the other parts of the human body. Neurons can be active as long as their oxygen supply through blood remains in tact and take a finite amount of time to die out. I'm not sure about the time it would take for a neuron to die out.

    Being a non-Sikh, I'm not well versed with the martyrdom of Baba Deep Singhji. With all respects to this Sikh martyr, I would like to put forward a few words from the science point of view. If his determined brain had commanded his arms and feet already in action for executing a series of tasks just before decapitation, his nerves would have still been active despite the head being severed due to the oxygenated blood that could have still remained in the body. The active neurons could have propagated the commands on the series of tasks to his limbs which would have accomplished the task just before being devoid of oxygenated blood resulting in death.

    This is just my analysis on the basis of what is seen in electrical systems as an engineer.

    For example, here is a simple analogy. Turn on any electrical appliance which involves a coil, let it run for a while and turn it off. One can easily observe that the electrical appliance does not stop running immediately after stopping the electrical power supply due to the residual electro motive force in the coils that takes some finite time to decay (disregarding the momentum gained due to mechanical motion).

    There have been some discussions on similar topics. Here is a webpage with some similar discussions.
    http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071223001138AAO1yN0
     
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  19. chazSingh

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    Events are miracles to the constrained and limited MIND, to the SOUL miracles do not exist.

    When i used to read verses like:

    njir BeI Gru Gr qy jwinAw ]2]
    najar bhee ghar ghar thae jaaniaa ||2||
    As the inner vision is awakened, one comes to know one's own home, deep within the self. ||2||

    I used to think this inner vision was just a saying, a MIRACLE, that it wasnt true for people like me who was sinning with every breath. But i kept doing ardaas and kept believing, but now i know that we are all capable of receiving his grace, that this is our birthright if only we really believe it.


    Nanak, after being asleep for countless incarnations, I have awakened.

    I slept through the entire dark night of my life, but through the tiniest bit of the Guru's Grace, I have been awakened.

     
  20. Randip Singh

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baba_Deep_Singh#Martyrdom_-_Two_Versions

    Martyrdom - Two Versions

    According to the Sikh legend, Baba Deep Singh had vowed to avenge the desecration of the Golden Temple by the Afghan army. In 1757, he led an army to defend the Golden Temple. The Sikhs and the Afghans clashed, in the battle of Amritsar, at the village of Gohalwar on November 11, 1757,<sup id="cite_ref-8" class="reference">[9]</sup> and in the ensuing conflict Baba Deep Singh was decapitated.<sup id="cite_ref-deol_9-0" class="reference">[10]</sup>
    Version One

    The first version has it that Deep Singh continued to fight after having been decapitated, slaying his enemies with his head in one hand and his sword in the other.<sup id="cite_ref-deol_9-1" class="reference">[10]</sup> In this version, only upon reaching the sacred city of Amritsar did he stop and finally die.<sup id="cite_ref-10" class="reference">[11]</sup> This tale recalls the words of the first Guru, Guru Nanak Dev Ji:
    Shouldst thou wish to play the game of love,
    come unto my Path with thy head on thy palm.
    And, once you step unto this path,
    You may well give up thy head, rather than the cause.<sup id="cite_ref-11" class="reference">[12]</sup>
    Version Two

    In the other version it is said "Fighting bravely Singhs pushed the army back and reached village Chabba where General Attal Khan came forward and inflicted a blow on Baba Deep Singh ji which made his neck lean to one side. A Sikh reminded him, "You had resolved to reach the periphery of the pool." On hearing the talk of the Sikh, he supported his head with his left hand and removing the enemies from his way with the strokes of his double-edged sword with his right hand, reached the periphery of Harmindar Sahib where he breathed his last. The Singhs celebrated the Bandhi-Sor Divas of 1757 A.D. in Harminder Sahib".<sup id="cite_ref-12" class="reference">[13]</sup>
    The Sikhs recovered their prestige by defeating the Afghan army and the latter were forced to flee.<sup id="cite_ref-13" class="reference">[14]</sup>
    The spot where the legend Baba Deep Singh's head fell is marked in the Golden Temple complex, and Sikhs from around the world pay their respects there. Baba Deep Singh's 30 kg<sup class="Template-Fact" style="white-space:nowrap;">[citation needed]</sup>Khanda (double-edged sword), which he used in his final battle, is still preserved at Takht Sri Hazur Sahib, one of the five centers of temporal Sikh authority.
     
  21. findingmyway

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