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Sukhmani Sahib Astpadi 5 Sabad 1 / ਸੁਖਮਨੀ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਅਸਟਪਦੀ ੫ ਸਬਦ ੧

Discussion in 'Sukhmani Sahib' started by Ambarsaria, Jan 11, 2012.

  1. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    ਸਲੋਕੁ
    Salok.
    Salok

    ਦੇਨਹਾਰੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਛੋਡਿ ਕੈ ਲਾਗਹਿ ਆਨ ਸੁਆਇ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਹੂ ਸੀਝਈ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਪਤਿ ਜਾਇ ੧॥
    Ḏenhār parabẖ cẖẖod kai lāgėh ān su▫ā▫e. Nānak kahū na sījẖ▫ī bin nāvai paṯ jā▫e. ||1||
    Leaving the creator that bestows, is busy in other selfishness. Guru Nanak, such can never achieve success as without the creator there is no honor.

    ਅਸਟਪਦੀ
    Asatpaḏī.
    Eight stanzas hymn

    ਦਸ ਬਸਤੂ ਲੇ ਪਾਛੈ ਪਾਵੈ ਏਕ ਬਸਤੁ ਕਾਰਨਿ ਬਿਖੋਟਿ ਗਵਾਵੈ
    Ḏas basṯū le pācẖẖai pāvai. Ėk basaṯ kāran bikẖot gavāvai.
    One collects ten things and puts these away. Because of one thing the trust is lost.

    ਏਕ ਭੀ ਦੇਇ ਦਸ ਭੀ ਹਿਰਿ ਲੇਇ ਤਉ ਮੂੜਾ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਾ ਕਰੇਇ
    Ėk bẖī na ḏe▫e ḏas bẖī hir le▫e. Ŧa▫o mūṛā kaho kahā kare▫i.
    If the one is not given and ten are taken back. Then pray tell what would the fool do.

    ਜਿਸੁ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਸਿਉ ਨਾਹੀ ਚਾਰਾ ਤਾ ਕਉ ਕੀਜੈ ਸਦ ਨਮਸਕਾਰਾ
    Jis ṯẖākur si▫o nāhī cẖārā. Ŧā ka▫o kījai saḏ namaskārā.
    One creator that cannot be brought under control. One always respectfully salutes such.

    ਜਾ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਲਾਗਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਮੀਠਾ ਸਰਬ ਸੂਖ ਤਾਹੂ ਮਨਿ ਵੂਠਾ
    Jā kai man lāgā parabẖ mīṯẖā. Sarab sūkẖ ṯāhū man vūṯẖā.
    One who has sweetness in the heart for the creator. All comforts dwell in such a mind.

    ਜਿਸੁ ਜਨ ਅਪਨਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਮਨਾਇਆ ਸਰਬ ਥੋਕ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਨਿ ਪਾਇਆ ੧॥
    Jis jan apnā hukam manā▫i▫ā. Sarab thok Nānak ṯin pā▫i▫ā. ||1||
    One through which the creator carries out directives. Guru Nanak, such finds all the elements.
    Please note all errors are mine and I stand corrected.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  3. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    S. Ambarsaria Ji

    Above interpretation reveals Guru sahib is referring 'ek bastu' as material items whereas sloke and the essence of the sabd tells us different story. Guru Sahib is stressing 'ek bastu' as Naam - the divine virtues. That due to lack of or by ignoring the main one requirement 'sach di matt' - we are wasting this opporutnity and eroding our body by running like rat race after 'ten items'. These 'das bastu' is again not material items but relishing taste of our organ (like sex, eyes gazing upon the beauty of another wife, nose etc.). 'Pachai' is not to put them behind but for the sake of relishing the taste of our organ. Please note even animals are relishing these taste so what is the difference between us and animals.

    In addition to depriving us of the essence sabd, above interpretation creates misunderstanding first it inhibits 'fear' and scares me, the other is it presents God as cruel.

    Therefore it is necessary that we delve upon in which context the above pankti is recited. When we check the salok of this ashtpadhi, it reads 'dainhar prabh chhod kai... God is dainhaar of what - is He 'dainhar' of material items or divine virtues as gurprasad raining His virtues throughout. It is for us whether we keep our vessel clean and straight up.

    I may be wrong. Looking your comments.

    Best regards
    Mohinder Singh Sahni
    Kuwait
     
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  4. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
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    Mohinder Singh Sahani ji,
    Although I appreciate your views but if we look at the word "PAAVAI" this should be taken into consideration for correct interpretation.
    Had the word been as"PAVE" then your interpretation fits correctly but with the word "PAAVAI" the interpretation given by Ambarsaria ji looks appropriate in this context.
    These are my own observations.
    Prakash.s.Bagga
     
  5. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    PAVAI refers to 'obtain'
    As far as I see it, the message is about 'obtaining' things or material items, in the sense that they are requested or wanted but NOT things that are given to us as humans such as eyesight, senses and capababilities.
    There is a difference between wanting things to be given to you, say rich foods and the things that are given to all because we need them, such as basic food for survival.

    ਦਸ ਬਸਤੂ ਲੇ ਪਾਛੈ ਪਾਵੈ ਏਕ ਬਸਤੁ ਕਾਰਨਿ ਬਿਖੋਟਿ ਗਵਾਵੈ
    Ḏas basṯū le pācẖẖai pāvai. Ėk basaṯ kāran bikẖot gavāvai.
    One collects ten things and puts these away. Because of one thing the trust is lost.
    Das(ten)
    bastu(things/items)
    le (obtains what is offered or given)
    pachhai(to affirm or keep the given thing, similar to acknowledge and keeping)
    pavai( obtains, as in a thing wanted or requested)
    Ek(one)
    basat( thing)
    karan(the reason being)
    bikhot(confidence,faith,trust)
    gavavai( to lose, forfeit)
    ---One obtains ten things and puts them away safely safel( affirms their posession)
    But, because of the one thing not given, he loses faith and confidence in the giver of the other ten.

    ਏਕ ਭੀ ਦੇਇ ਦਸ ਭੀ ਹਿਰਿ ਲੇਇ ਤਉ ਮੂੜਾ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਾ ਕਰੇਇ
    Ėk bẖī na ḏe▫e ḏas bẖī hir le▫e. Ŧa▫o mūṛā kaho kahā kare▫i.
    If the one is not given and ten are taken back. Then pray tell what would the fool do.

    If all the given ten are also taken back, so that nothing is left. Then what will the unfortunate or mistreated fool do.

    Then it carries on to say as above in the translation and that the one who greets humbly always( sad namaskaar) to the true lord and accepts, the givings, in their minds they feel that they have been given more than they deserve.
    Sarab sukh( all happiness and pleasures)tahu man(in his frame of mind)vootha (come to reside,abide or dwell)

    I don't see the message much different to the essence in above post.

    Waheguru
    Lucky Singh
     
  6. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    If it helps at all perhaps let us look at Bhai Manmohan Singh ji and Prof. Sahib Singh ji's input on this,

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
  7. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    Let us check direct from Guru Sahib what does 'ek bast' means by him. Word 'basat' and 'vasat' is written more than seventy times in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Like 'ek basat bin panch duhaila' or 'jis kee basat tis aagai rakhai or 'ek vast bhujai ta hovai paak' 'thaal vich tin vastu paiheu sat santokh veecharo tis ka hoey udharoo' or 'ek bast tu gheenai nahi. So 'bast or vasat' is not material items but spiritual wisdom. Similarly 'bikhaut' is combination of 'bi+khaute = purity. Without 'ek bast' or spiritual wisdom one cannot achieve purity.

    Above matches with guru's vaak, 'nanak jit aahar jagh udharai virla bujhai koey' - very rare are those who understand that without spiritual wisdom one cannot cross over the bhavjal.

    Further when it says, ' ਏਕ ਭੀ ਨ ਦੇਇ ਦਸ ਭੀ ਹਿਰਿ ਲੇਇ ॥ ਤਉ ਮੂੜਾ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਾ ਕਰੇਇ ॥ Ėk bẖī na ḏe▫e ḏas bẖī hir le▫e. Ŧa▫o mūṛā kaho kahā kare▫i. guru sahib is referring to his own manh as a first person if you don't obtain even one divine virtue and transmit to body then treasure of your whole body will be ruined, manuevered and what will mind do. Naturally you will be upset and in that state, demon thought will rule your mind and lead you to astray like corruption, rape etc.

    Best regards
    Mohinder Singh Sahni
    Kuwait
     
    #6 japjisahib04, May 2, 2012
    Last edited: May 2, 2012
  8. Taranjeet singh

    Taranjeet singh India
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    Respected Japjisahib04 ji.

    Humbly it is stated that I am no one to state that what you have analyzed may not be correct as my knowledge is limited and vision is myopic as our reference is limited to Dr.Sahib Singh.

    Based on knowledge gained by going through Dr.Sahib Singh ji’s renderings, it is stated that the meanings assigned by Ambarsaria ji and Luckysingh ji to the pad/paudi are, more or less, in line with the standard work of Dr. Sahib singh. ji.

    Moreover, if carefully observed, it would emerge that the major thrust in this pad/paudi are contained in the last 2 lines of the Pad/paudi. Liberty is taken in reproducing the same alongwith the translation as it appears in srigranth.org

    ਜਿਸੁ ਜਨ ਅਪਨਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਮਨਾਇਆ ॥
    One who abides by the Lord's Will,

    ਸਰਬ ਥੋਕ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਨਿ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੧॥
    O Nanak, obtains all things. ||1|


    The above two lines are related to the concept of ‘Hukum’ that is contained in major philosophical composition of Guru Nanak Dev ji [ i.e Jap ji sahib-Reference paudi.-1]

    KiV sachiara Hoiye kiv kure tute Paal
    Hukum Razai chalna Nanak Likhya Naal

    No need is felt to expand on this.

    Entreating forgiveness in advance..
     
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    #7 Taranjeet singh, May 3, 2012
    Last edited: May 3, 2012
  9. Scarlet Pimpernel

    Scarlet Pimpernel
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    TrueTruth is deeper than even true translation ,my Dad once said that if the Truth kicked me in the ball-s and punched me in the face I would still not recognise it,such is the state of Sikhs today we search different translations,but philosophy is thinking differently and not translating differently.
    As Tulsidas said thinking Me and Mine and You and Yours is the source of Illusion or Maya,everyones translation is altered by their perception.

    If there is one that has no ego ,only he can recognise what no ego is,if one thinks as described by Tulsidas then one is Mayatistical ,use the lantern of the Word to search yourself ,the lantern is beautiful it dispels your darkness but don't study the lantern rather study your Self
     
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    #8 Scarlet Pimpernel, May 3, 2012
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  10. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Taranjeet Singh, Japjisahib04 and Luckysingh ji thanks for the discourse and good posts for learning. I will bring your attention to the following and another way to look at how Guru ji as our teacher try to drive home couple of points for our learning,

    (1) ਦਸ ਬਸਤੂ ਲੇ
    Ḏas basṯū le
    One collects ten things
    Essence:
    Maya Centric
    ; One always in the mood to receive, expect to get, demand to have, want to own, etc.

    (2) ਪਾਛੈ ਪਾਵੈ

    pācẖẖai pāvai.
    puts these away
    Essence:
    Greed
    :
    Get and hoard versus use, share, give away, content-fully recognize,
    etc.

    (3) ਏਕ ਬਸਤੁ ਕਾਰਨਿ ਬਿਖੋਟਿ ਗਵਾਵੈ
    Ėk basaṯ kāran bikẖot gavāvai.
    Because of one thing the trust is lost.
    Essence:
    Arrogant: Like a spoiled child, misses the essence of receiving, gifts cannot be demanded whether you get 10 or 9 or 1, not recognizing of the essence of creator's grace, etc.

    (4) ਏਕ ਭੀ ਦੇਇ ਦਸ ਭੀ ਹਿਰਿ ਲੇਇ
    Ėk bẖī na ḏe▫e ḏas bẖī hir le▫e.
    If the one is not given and ten are taken back.
    Essence: Guru ji drive home the lesson by stating the state of such a person as to be;

    Reality bites: What makes you think you deserve any? Forget about receiving 10 how about not getting any new and returning one already gotten.

    Is Guru ji driving as "one" to be the realization, "naam", understanding, and so on. This is the personal experience that we all derive and differently from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. We all are unique in being who we are, including our abilities to understand, perceive, visualize, etc.

    (5) ਤਉ ਮੂੜਾ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਾ ਕਰੇਇ
    Ŧa▫o mūṛā kaho kahā kare▫i.
    Then pray tell what would the fool do.
    Essence:
    Guru ji state that all received is creator's benevolence, gifts, parsad, so take it as such and don't demand, don't expect, as creator's has a choice and not the foolish receiver.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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    #9 Ambarsaria, May 3, 2012
    Last edited: May 4, 2012
  11. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    ਜਿਸੁ ਜਨ ਅਪਨਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਮਨਾਇਆ ॥
    One who abides by the Lord's Will,

    ਸਰਬ ਥੋਕ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਨਿ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੧॥
    O Nanak, obtains all things. ||1|

    You have rightly said above is linked with 'keev sachiara hoeyia keev kudeh tuteh pal'. Even otherwise I have noticed Prof Sahib Singh translation on 'dainda dai lainda thakh paey' is linked with worldly materials when guru sahib have stated 'bhukhiya bhukh n utree' one cannot get satiated with tons and tons of load then how could he get tired of receiving. Over here 'thakk' is stablized after receiving divine wisdom and not tired of receiving worldly items. As Gurbani tells us, 'jai ko khavaih jai ko bhunjai tis ka hoey uddaaro - the one who listen, understand and reflect upon the divine virtues get stablized or cross over the bhavjal.

    Best regards
    Mohinder Singh Sahni
    Kuwait
     
  12. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Scarlet Pimpernel veer ji thanks for your post. Beyond words is an experience and living quite unique to each of us.
    When I watch the following I get something what you get or not get would be unique to you too,

    Guddi - Dana Paani Khich Ke Liyanda - Mohd.Rafi - YouTube

    I see myself standing at the Ucha Pulh (high bridge) pedestrian overpass near Amritsar Railway Junction and see the Round Faced Engine pull away the Flying Mail train out of Amritsar at 12:45 towards Delhi. Many other visualizations of Beggars, a worker getting de-capitated oiling the junctions as he did not see the train coming, etc.

    So life is learning, experiencing and living with all that.

    If we can make it a bit better or worthwhile with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Guru ji's assistance, that is just icing on the gift of life that we have when born.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  13. mandemeet

    mandemeet
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    Japjisahibo4 Ji
    I am fully aware what are you talking about; let me share some quotes that prove what you are saying is very true; however, we will see if that concept indeed exists in the Ashtpadi. Ambarsaria ji has tried to interpret and we are talking about; first what you are talking about:

    on 374
    ਏਕ ਵਸਤੁ ਬੂਝਹਿ ਤਾ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਪਾਕ
    Ėk vasaṯ būjẖėh ṯā hovėh pāk.
    If you could understand even one thing, then you would be pure.
    ਬਿਨੁ ਬੂਝੇ ਤੂੰ ਸਦਾ ਨਾਪਾਕ ੪॥
    Bin būjẖe ṯūʼn saḏā nāpāk. ||4||
    Without understanding, you shall be forever impure. ||4||
    ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਕਉ ਕੁਰਬਾਨੁ
    Kaho Nānak gur ka▫o kurbān.
    Says Nanak, I am a sacrifice to the Guru;
    ਜਿਸ ਤੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਹਰਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੁਜਾਨੁ ੫॥੧੪॥
    Jis ṯe pā▫ī▫ai har purakẖ sujān. ||5||14||
    through Him, I obtain the Lord, the All-knowing Primal Being. ||5||14||

    on 1145
    ਏਕ ਵਸਤੁ ਜੇ ਪਾਵੈ ਕੋਇ
    Ėk vasaṯ je pāvai ko▫e.
    If someone is blessed with the singular substance,
    ਪੂਰਨ ਕਾਜੁ ਤਾਹੀ ਕਾ ਹੋਇ
    Pūran kāj ṯāhī kā ho▫e.
    then all of his tasks are accomplished to perfection.
    ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਜਿਨਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਨਾਮੁ
    Gur parsāḏ jin pā▫i▫ā nām.
    One who obtains the Naam, by Guru's Grace-
    ਨਾਨਕ ਆਇਆ ਸੋ ਪਰਵਾਨੁ ੪॥੨੦॥੩੩॥
    Nānak ā▫i▫ā so parvān. ||4||20||33||
    O Nanak, his coming into the world is certified and approved. ||4||20||33||

    Above both quotes verify that what you are referring to is very true.

    Now if we look at the entire the Ashtpadee, the Guru is not talking about Naamu – Vasat in it at all, but about following the Ordinance of All Pervading Akalpurakh; if you look at the end of this shabda number one, you see:

    ਜਿਸੁ ਜਨ ਅਪਨਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਮਨਾਇਆ
    Jis jan apnā hukam manā▫i▫ā.
    One who abides by the Lord's Will, (English interpretation is incorrect, it should be: one, whom Akalpurakh has causes to obey His Hukam /Ordinance/Wil;, Manaya indicates Akalpurakh’s grace; when Akalpurakh bestows His grace, we truly submit to His Will and obtain peace in His Will)
    ਜਿਸੁ ਜਨ = ਜਿਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੂੰ।
    ਜਿਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਤੋਂ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਆਪਣਾ ਹੁਕਮ ਮਨਾਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ,

    ਸਰਬ ਥੋਕ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਨਿ ਪਾਇਆ ੧॥
    Sarab thok Nānak ṯin pā▫i▫ā. ||1||
    O Nanak, obtains all things. ||1||
    ਥੋਕ = ਪਦਾਰਥ। ਤਿਨਿ = ਉਸ (ਮਨੁੱਖ) ਨੇ ੧॥
    ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! (ਦੁਨੀਆ ਦੇ) ਸਾਰੇ ਪਦਾਰਥ (ਮਾਨੋ) ਉਸ ਨੇ ਲੱਭ ਲਏ ਹਨ


    It is all about understanding His Ordinance; the seeker is advised to remain contented with His Will,; if he gets one Vasat (here, a thing, gift) as per His will, it is ok; if he doesn’t get anything, still it is ok. Naamu Vasat is not even referred in this shabda.
    These are my humble views about this.


    With regards
    mandemeet
     
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  14. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    If Vastu here is translated as spiritual wisdom, Naam, etc the essence of the shabad remains the same.

    On one hand, the individual is attached to material possessions, that when these material possessions are taken away from him, he gets angry and loses faith in God. This is the situation of most people.
    On the other hand, the individual is attached to spiritual wisdom, that when the spiritual wisdom is taken away from him, he gets angry and loses faith in God. This is the situation of most people who get into spirituality and start studying spiritual texts.

    The idea is the same, there is an attachment to what God gave but no real attachment to God. Pleasure is being derived from being rich or being enlightened but Guru Sahib says real pleasure (and real spirituality and real material) comes from being attached only to God and abiding by his will.

    PS Vastu is anything of this world. It could also be a talent e.g. beautiful voice and singing.
     
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    #13 BhagatSingh, May 4, 2012
    Last edited: May 4, 2012
  15. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
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    It seems probably in Gurbanee the word "VASATu" is for Naamu wherever used and the word "BASATu" for wordly materials.
    Although both words are synonym in their meanings.
    There is one more meaning connected to the word BASAT as Dwellin whereas the word VASATu is exclusive reference for specific thing in context of its application.
    Prakash.s.Baggal
     
  16. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Prakash.S.Bagga ji thanks for your post. Something I noticed,
    Sat Sri Akal.
     
  17. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    S. Ambarsaria Ji
    In above sabd the central idea is 'Maya' whereas the salok or the central idea of ashtapadi is 'dainhar prabh chodh kai' it is being referred to Gurprasad -who is raining divine virtues continuously, whether we deserve it or not and gurprasad is by exploring, 'matt vich rattan jvahar manak jai ek gur ki sikh suni' and not material items.

    Ashtpadi is cautioning us that did we take birth for the sake of feeding or satiating the ten organs which cannot be satiated even otherwise. Is this our mission? Further 'das' or ten is just a metaphor otherwise our body has infinite opening through infinite pores of the body.
    And when it says, 'ek bast' sabd is not referring to eleventh item and warning us why are we unstablized because we didn't listen to 'ek gur ki sikh suni'. Gurbani is all about spirturlism.

    Best regards
    Mohinder Singh Sahni
    Kuwait
     

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